|
Home > Archive > Unix administration > January 2004 > Solaris 9 Security Administrator Certification
You are viewing an archived Text-only version of the thread.
To view this thread in it's original format and/or if you want to reply to
this thread please [click here]
| Author |
Solaris 9 Security Administrator Certification
|
|
| John Philcox 2004-01-23, 4:35 pm |
| Hello to all:
I'm trying to find out if people are taking the Security admin certification or
if they plan to.
Any indication of whether this is taking off or not would be extremely useful.
Thanks
John
| |
|
| John Philcox wrote:
quote:
> Hello to all:
>
> I'm trying to find out if people are taking the Security admin certification or
> if they plan to.
> Any indication of whether this is taking off or not would be extremely useful.
>
> Thanks
>
> John
Not I. I do not believe in certifications and any company that prefer
candidates that do, I do not want to work for anyway. Anyone can cram
for a test, but using a certification as a measuring stick for ability
is a no-no in the IT industry.
As an IT Director, when I request resumes for jobs from head hunters I
request that they strip all certifications from resumes just so they
don't cloud the issue. Especially the useless XXX MCSE. lol
Just my 2 cents. I surely would not shell out money out of my own pocket
to take the tests. In my opiniion, the tests should be free, since
having ceritfied techies helps promote the products.
-Rhugga
| |
|
| Chuck wrote:quote:
> Not I. I do not believe in certifications and any company that prefer
> candidates that do, I do not want to work for anyway. Anyone can cram
> for a test, but using a certification as a measuring stick for ability
> is a no-no in the IT industry.
>
> As an IT Director, when I request resumes for jobs from head hunters I
> request that they strip all certifications from resumes just so they
> don't cloud the issue. Especially the useless XXX MCSE. lol
>
> Just my 2 cents. I surely would not shell out money out of my own pocket
> to take the tests. In my opiniion, the tests should be free, since
> having ceritfied techies helps promote the products.
>
> -Rhugga
Probably one of the most sensible things I have read in a long
time. Nice one!
There is no substitute for experience and knowledge.
Would you rather have someone with 1 years experience
and 10 certificates or 10 years experience and no
certificates? I know this can depend, but the general
rule would be that the 10 year experienced person would
be more knowledgable and adaptable.
| |
|
| John Philcox wrote:
quote:
> Hello to all:
>
> I'm trying to find out if people are taking the Security admin certification or
> if they plan to.
> Any indication of whether this is taking off or not would be extremely useful.
>
> Thanks
>
> John
Not I. I do not believe in certifications and any company that prefer
candidates that do, I do not want to work for anyway. Anyone can cram
for a test, but using a certification as a measuring stick for ability
is a no-no in the IT industry.
As an IT Director, when I request resumes for jobs from head hunters I
request that they strip all certifications from resumes just so they
don't cloud the issue. Especially the useless XXX MCSE. lol
Just my 2 cents. I surely would not shell out money out of my own pocket
to take the tests. In my opiniion, the tests should be free, since
having ceritfied techies helps promote the products.
-Rhugga
| |
|
| Chuck wrote:quote:
> Not I. I do not believe in certifications and any company that prefer
> candidates that do, I do not want to work for anyway. Anyone can cram
> for a test, but using a certification as a measuring stick for ability
> is a no-no in the IT industry.
>
> As an IT Director, when I request resumes for jobs from head hunters I
> request that they strip all certifications from resumes just so they
> don't cloud the issue. Especially the useless XXX MCSE. lol
>
> Just my 2 cents. I surely would not shell out money out of my own pocket
> to take the tests. In my opiniion, the tests should be free, since
> having ceritfied techies helps promote the products.
>
> -Rhugga
Probably one of the most sensible things I have read in a long
time. Nice one!
There is no substitute for experience and knowledge.
Would you rather have someone with 1 years experience
and 10 certificates or 10 years experience and no
certificates? I know this can depend, but the general
rule would be that the 10 year experienced person would
be more knowledgable and adaptable.
| |
| Alessandro Selli 2004-01-23, 4:35 pm |
| Il giorno Wed, 3 Sep 2003, Chuck cos=EC ha scritto:
[...]
|Just my 2 cents. I surely would not shell out money out of my own pocket
|to take the tests. In my opiniion, the tests should be free, since
|having ceritfied techies helps promote the products.
Unless one is already working for an IT firm, than the employer should
pick up the price tag.
Sandro
--=20
Bellum se ipsum alet
La guerra nutre se stessa
Livio, Ab urbe condita, XXXIV,9
| |
| Alessandro Selli 2004-01-23, 4:35 pm |
| Il giorno Wed, 3 Sep 2003, Chuck cos=EC ha scritto:
[...]
|Just my 2 cents. I surely would not shell out money out of my own pocket
|to take the tests. In my opiniion, the tests should be free, since
|having ceritfied techies helps promote the products.
Unless one is already working for an IT firm, than the employer should
pick up the price tag.
Sandro
--=20
Bellum se ipsum alet
La guerra nutre se stessa
Livio, Ab urbe condita, XXXIV,9
| |
| Rich Teer 2004-01-23, 4:35 pm |
| On Wed, 3 Sep 2003, Chuck wrote:
quote:
> Not I. I do not believe in certifications and any company that prefer
> candidates that do, I do not want to work for anyway. Anyone can cram
> for a test, but using a certification as a measuring stick for ability
> is a no-no in the IT industry.
>
> As an IT Director, when I request resumes for jobs from head hunters I
> request that they strip all certifications from resumes just so they
> don't cloud the issue. Especially the useless XXX MCSE. lol
I couldn't agree more. However, given the choice between two equally
experienced candidates, one who has a relevant certification, and one
who doesn't, who would you be more likely to take on?
I do agree, though, that certs withou experience aren't worth the
paper they're printed.
OBTW, I have over 12 years of experience to back up my Solaris certs,
and I'm looking for contract work!
To the OP: I have the Security Admin cert (the SCSA below); unless
you want to specialise in security, I wouldn't pay for it out of
your own money.
--
Rich Teer, SCNA, SCSA
President,
Rite Online Inc.
Voice: +1 (250) 979-1638
URL: http://www.rite-online.net
| |
| Rich Teer 2004-01-23, 4:35 pm |
| On Wed, 3 Sep 2003, Chuck wrote:
quote:
> Not I. I do not believe in certifications and any company that prefer
> candidates that do, I do not want to work for anyway. Anyone can cram
> for a test, but using a certification as a measuring stick for ability
> is a no-no in the IT industry.
>
> As an IT Director, when I request resumes for jobs from head hunters I
> request that they strip all certifications from resumes just so they
> don't cloud the issue. Especially the useless XXX MCSE. lol
I couldn't agree more. However, given the choice between two equally
experienced candidates, one who has a relevant certification, and one
who doesn't, who would you be more likely to take on?
I do agree, though, that certs withou experience aren't worth the
paper they're printed.
OBTW, I have over 12 years of experience to back up my Solaris certs,
and I'm looking for contract work!
To the OP: I have the Security Admin cert (the SCSA below); unless
you want to specialise in security, I wouldn't pay for it out of
your own money.
--
Rich Teer, SCNA, SCSA
President,
Rite Online Inc.
Voice: +1 (250) 979-1638
URL: http://www.rite-online.net
| |
|
| Jonno wrote:
quote:
> Rich Teer wrote:
>
>
>
> Move to India or China!!!!!
Man, I hear there is HELLA consulting work in Qatar. (That is the
extremelly rich country near Iraq where our current military HQ is)
Not sure how safe things are their right now, but the country is sick
with cash and right now the telecom industry in exploding their, also
there is some new deal with the US's dept. of Education where several
large universities are going to have campuses their. (or something like
that)
Anyway, I hear the is a shitload of coin to be made there.
Rhugga
| |
| Rich Teer 2004-01-23, 4:35 pm |
| On Wed, 3 Sep 2003, Chuck wrote:
quote:
> Man, I hear there is HELLA consulting work in Qatar. (That is the
> extremelly rich country near Iraq where our current military HQ is)
>
> Not sure how safe things are their right now, but the country is sick
> with cash and right now the telecom industry in exploding their, also
> there is some new deal with the US's dept. of Education where several
> large universities are going to have campuses their. (or something like
> that)
>
> Anyway, I hear the is a shitload of coin to be made there.
Sweet! WHere do I sign up? :-)
--
Rich Teer, SCNA, SCSA
President,
Rite Online Inc.
Voice: +1 (250) 979-1638
URL: http://www.rite-online.net
| |
|
| Jonno wrote:
quote:
> Rich Teer wrote:
>
>
>
> Move to India or China!!!!!
Man, I hear there is HELLA consulting work in Qatar. (That is the
extremelly rich country near Iraq where our current military HQ is)
Not sure how safe things are their right now, but the country is sick
with cash and right now the telecom industry in exploding their, also
there is some new deal with the US's dept. of Education where several
large universities are going to have campuses their. (or something like
that)
Anyway, I hear the is a shitload of coin to be made there.
Rhugga
| |
| Rich Teer 2004-01-23, 4:35 pm |
| On Wed, 3 Sep 2003, Chuck wrote:
quote:
> Man, I hear there is HELLA consulting work in Qatar. (That is the
> extremelly rich country near Iraq where our current military HQ is)
>
> Not sure how safe things are their right now, but the country is sick
> with cash and right now the telecom industry in exploding their, also
> there is some new deal with the US's dept. of Education where several
> large universities are going to have campuses their. (or something like
> that)
>
> Anyway, I hear the is a shitload of coin to be made there.
Sweet! WHere do I sign up? :-)
--
Rich Teer, SCNA, SCSA
President,
Rite Online Inc.
Voice: +1 (250) 979-1638
URL: http://www.rite-online.net
| |
| John Philcox 2004-01-23, 4:35 pm |
| Rich Teer <rich.teer@rite-group.com> wrote in message news:<Pine.GSO.4.44.0309031120430.8471-100000@zaphod>...quote:
> On Wed, 3 Sep 2003, Chuck wrote:
>
>
> Sweet! WHere do I sign up? :-)
Thanks for the info, BTW, I also agree that experience counts for much more
than the passing of a specific exam, sat down answering some questions. The
point was made above though, with two equally experienced candidates, one
with the relevant certification and one without, which one would you take?
and why?
Also, do you think the cert would be more valuable if it included (like
Redhat does I've been told), a practical hands-on session where the
candidate has to a) install the system to some defined specs, b) load and
configure additional services and c) troubleshoot some problems to get the
system working again?
Thanks for your input.
John
| |
| John Philcox 2004-01-23, 4:35 pm |
| Rich Teer <rich.teer@rite-group.com> wrote in message news:<Pine.GSO.4.44.0309031120430.8471-100000@zaphod>...quote:
> On Wed, 3 Sep 2003, Chuck wrote:
>
>
> Sweet! WHere do I sign up? :-)
Thanks for the info, BTW, I also agree that experience counts for much more
than the passing of a specific exam, sat down answering some questions. The
point was made above though, with two equally experienced candidates, one
with the relevant certification and one without, which one would you take?
and why?
Also, do you think the cert would be more valuable if it included (like
Redhat does I've been told), a practical hands-on session where the
candidate has to a) install the system to some defined specs, b) load and
configure additional services and c) troubleshoot some problems to get the
system working again?
Thanks for your input.
John
| |
| Josh McKee 2004-01-23, 4:35 pm |
| On 3 Sep 2003 15:06:18 -0700, john.philcox@mobile-ventures.net (John
Philcox) wrote:
quote:
>Rich Teer <rich.teer@rite-group.com> wrote in message news:<Pine.GSO.4.44.0309031120430.8471-100000@zaphod>...
>
>Thanks for the info, BTW, I also agree that experience counts for much more
>than the passing of a specific exam, sat down answering some questions. The
>point was made above though, with two equally experienced candidates, one
>with the relevant certification and one without, which one would you take?
>and why?
>
>Also, do you think the cert would be more valuable if it included (like
>Redhat does I've been told), a practical hands-on session where the
>candidate has to a) install the system to some defined specs, b) load and
>configure additional services and c) troubleshoot some problems to get the
>system working again?
IMO the RHCE certification certainly has more merit than most other
certification exams. Being a hands on certification one demonstrates
their knowledge by doing not regurgitating.
Josh
| |
| Josh McKee 2004-01-23, 4:35 pm |
| On 3 Sep 2003 15:06:18 -0700, john.philcox@mobile-ventures.net (John
Philcox) wrote:
quote:
>Rich Teer <rich.teer@rite-group.com> wrote in message news:<Pine.GSO.4.44.0309031120430.8471-100000@zaphod>...
>
>Thanks for the info, BTW, I also agree that experience counts for much more
>than the passing of a specific exam, sat down answering some questions. The
>point was made above though, with two equally experienced candidates, one
>with the relevant certification and one without, which one would you take?
>and why?
>
>Also, do you think the cert would be more valuable if it included (like
>Redhat does I've been told), a practical hands-on session where the
>candidate has to a) install the system to some defined specs, b) load and
>configure additional services and c) troubleshoot some problems to get the
>system working again?
IMO the RHCE certification certainly has more merit than most other
certification exams. Being a hands on certification one demonstrates
their knowledge by doing not regurgitating.
Josh
| |
|
| I'd rather employ the person who seems to be
the best for the job. I might throw some scenarios
(even customer related ones) to them and see how they
respond. Experience+customer facing VERSUS
experience+qualifications-customer facing
Then the customer facing person would win. Obviously you
can say what the employer wants to hear in an interview
but to an employer sorting the real stuff from the bullsh***ers
shouldn't be too difficult.
| |
|
| I'd rather employ the person who seems to be
the best for the job. I might throw some scenarios
(even customer related ones) to them and see how they
respond. Experience+customer facing VERSUS
experience+qualifications-customer facing
Then the customer facing person would win. Obviously you
can say what the employer wants to hear in an interview
but to an employer sorting the real stuff from the bullsh***ers
shouldn't be too difficult.
| |
|
|
|
|
| Ghazan Haider 2004-01-23, 4:36 pm |
| > As an IT Director, when I request resumes for jobs from head hunters Iquote:
> request that they strip all certifications from resumes just so they
> don't cloud the issue. Especially the useless XXX MCSE. lol
What? You mean to tell me I wouldnt make it anywhere near the top of
your list with my CCIE, CISSP, RHCE, SCSA/SCNA etc? They're the only
way I can distinguish myself from joe schmoe.
Lemme tell you where I came from. I came from Pakistan about 3 years
ago to Canada (and have 6 years experience working in IT), but alas do
not yet have a 4-year degree. Currently, to study I have to pay
International student fees (6 times the usual) so that rules the
degree out.
And then most places in North America never consider experience in
Pakistan since it is too easy to fake it on paper and very commonly
done ( do you want 13 years experience?), so technically I have 3
years worth of experience. Never mind I've had a foot in some
opensource projects, and am close to the CCIE Security exam, I really
have nothing to show for it.
I understand the weight of experience, and besides, technical skill in
itself does not suffice to keep you afloat in any company. In small to
medium sized companies, you have to deal with many co-workers and
(hopefully not) their email problems and the likes, put personality
down on your resume. Some certifications however do seperate the
candidates. RedHat's RHCE can filter out a large bunch of the
high-schoolers who have installed Linux and can write basic shell
scripts. Cisco's CCIE is proprietary but since it can select the
network skills better than any other cert, it is being used by many
places and well paid for. After all, Rich Teer would have trouble
finding a sig without those Sun certs :-)
The three basic requirements from an IT candidate are college degree,
experience and certification. Personality is only measured in the
interview. Theres really not much you can do about experience but
wait, which pretty much leaves the ambitious ones with the
certifications rather than having to wait 7 years to get better
leverage against other contestants.
I'll just go with a cert blitz for now..
RHCE/CCIE/SCNA/SCSA/CISSP/MCSA till I can get back to college. By the
time I'm done with the degree I should be in a good position. Am I
making mistakes there?
| |
| Ghazan Haider 2004-01-23, 4:36 pm |
| > As an IT Director, when I request resumes for jobs from head hunters Iquote:
> request that they strip all certifications from resumes just so they
> don't cloud the issue. Especially the useless XXX MCSE. lol
What? You mean to tell me I wouldnt make it anywhere near the top of
your list with my CCIE, CISSP, RHCE, SCSA/SCNA etc? They're the only
way I can distinguish myself from joe schmoe.
Lemme tell you where I came from. I came from Pakistan about 3 years
ago to Canada (and have 6 years experience working in IT), but alas do
not yet have a 4-year degree. Currently, to study I have to pay
International student fees (6 times the usual) so that rules the
degree out.
And then most places in North America never consider experience in
Pakistan since it is too easy to fake it on paper and very commonly
done ( do you want 13 years experience?), so technically I have 3
years worth of experience. Never mind I've had a foot in some
opensource projects, and am close to the CCIE Security exam, I really
have nothing to show for it.
I understand the weight of experience, and besides, technical skill in
itself does not suffice to keep you afloat in any company. In small to
medium sized companies, you have to deal with many co-workers and
(hopefully not) their email problems and the likes, put personality
down on your resume. Some certifications however do seperate the
candidates. RedHat's RHCE can filter out a large bunch of the
high-schoolers who have installed Linux and can write basic shell
scripts. Cisco's CCIE is proprietary but since it can select the
network skills better than any other cert, it is being used by many
places and well paid for. After all, Rich Teer would have trouble
finding a sig without those Sun certs :-)
The three basic requirements from an IT candidate are college degree,
experience and certification. Personality is only measured in the
interview. Theres really not much you can do about experience but
wait, which pretty much leaves the ambitious ones with the
certifications rather than having to wait 7 years to get better
leverage against other contestants.
I'll just go with a cert blitz for now..
RHCE/CCIE/SCNA/SCSA/CISSP/MCSA till I can get back to college. By the
time I'm done with the degree I should be in a good position. Am I
making mistakes there?
| |
| Rich Teer 2004-01-23, 4:36 pm |
| On 7 Sep 2003, Ghazan Haider wrote:
quote:
> places and well paid for. After all, Rich Teer would have trouble
> finding a sig without those Sun certs :-)
Nah, there's always sig.BC (Before Certification)! :-)
(One of them is below.)
quote:
> time I'm done with the degree I should be in a good position. Am I
> making mistakes there?
If you're paying for courses, then yes, probably. Luckily,
I "knew my stuff" well ebough to pass my certification exams
without taking any courses.
--
Rich Teer
NT tries to do almost everything UNIX does, but fails - miserably.
The use of Windoze cripples the mind; its use should, therefore, be
regarded as a criminal offence. (With apologies to Edsger W. Dijkstra)
Voice: +1 (250) 979-1638
URL: http://www.rite-online.net
| |
| Rich Teer 2004-01-23, 4:36 pm |
| On 7 Sep 2003, Ghazan Haider wrote:
quote:
> places and well paid for. After all, Rich Teer would have trouble
> finding a sig without those Sun certs :-)
Nah, there's always sig.BC (Before Certification)! :-)
(One of them is below.)
quote:
> time I'm done with the degree I should be in a good position. Am I
> making mistakes there?
If you're paying for courses, then yes, probably. Luckily,
I "knew my stuff" well ebough to pass my certification exams
without taking any courses.
--
Rich Teer
NT tries to do almost everything UNIX does, but fails - miserably.
The use of Windoze cripples the mind; its use should, therefore, be
regarded as a criminal offence. (With apologies to Edsger W. Dijkstra)
Voice: +1 (250) 979-1638
URL: http://www.rite-online.net
| |
| Josh McKee 2004-01-23, 4:36 pm |
| In article <Pine.GSO.4.44.0309070940520.15528-100000@zaphod>,
Rich Teer <rich.teer@rite-group.com> wrote:
quote:
> On 7 Sep 2003, Ghazan Haider wrote:
>
>
> Nah, there's always sig.BC (Before Certification)! :-)
> (One of them is below.)
>
>
> If you're paying for courses, then yes, probably. Luckily,
> I "knew my stuff" well ebough to pass my certification exams
> without taking any courses.
Which has always been one of my points. If you know your stuff what harm
could obtaining the certifications do?
Josh
| |
| Josh McKee 2004-01-23, 4:36 pm |
| In article <Pine.GSO.4.44.0309070940520.15528-100000@zaphod>,
Rich Teer <rich.teer@rite-group.com> wrote:
quote:
> On 7 Sep 2003, Ghazan Haider wrote:
>
>
> Nah, there's always sig.BC (Before Certification)! :-)
> (One of them is below.)
>
>
> If you're paying for courses, then yes, probably. Luckily,
> I "knew my stuff" well ebough to pass my certification exams
> without taking any courses.
Which has always been one of my points. If you know your stuff what harm
could obtaining the certifications do?
Josh
| |
| Rich Teer 2004-01-23, 4:36 pm |
| On Sun, 7 Sep 2003, Josh McKee wrote:
quote:
> Which has always been one of my points. If you know your stuff what harm
> could obtaining the certifications do?
None whatsoever, IMHO.
--
Rich Teer, SCNA, SCSA
President,
Rite Online Inc.
Voice: +1 (250) 979-1638
URL: http://www.rite-online.net
| |
| Rich Teer 2004-01-23, 4:36 pm |
| On Sun, 7 Sep 2003, Josh McKee wrote:
quote:
> Which has always been one of my points. If you know your stuff what harm
> could obtaining the certifications do?
None whatsoever, IMHO.
--
Rich Teer, SCNA, SCSA
President,
Rite Online Inc.
Voice: +1 (250) 979-1638
URL: http://www.rite-online.net
| |
| alcesteatxmissiondot@com.or.net 2004-01-23, 4:36 pm |
| If I am going to hire someone has a UNIX sysadmin, they better be able to
pass the SCNA and/or the RHCE, HPUX certification, whatever.
If I'm hiring them as a cisco person, they should be able to have a CCNE (the
middle one, not the CCIE). Likewise for an Oracle DBA and the OCP DBA.
If someone has enough experience to be hired as a full-fledged Sysadmin, DBA,
network admin, etc. then the cert doesn't really show anything they shouldn't
already know.
However, I ask those who do hiring this:
I have a mixed environment: J2EE Servers, Oracle, HPUX, Solaris, Linux, Cisco,
etc. Let's say most boxes are Suns and the position is for a Sun Admin.
I have two resumes:
Person 1:
8 years experience as Sysadmin on Sun.
4 year degree
Person 2:
5 years experience as a Sysadmin on Sun.
4 year degree.
MCSE, Oracle OCP DBA, Java programming Certificate, LPI Linux Cert.
Who are you going to call first?
A certification, while not proving you know enough to fully take on a senior
position in an area, shows you have at least a basic knowledge of what
that technology is all about. It means that when my DBA and my Windows Admin
talks to my Sun Admin, he/she isn't going to stare at them blankly when they
use terms like "RMAN" and "PDC." And push comes to shove and they need to
be the third-string backup, they can probably handle it.
Likewise, I'd give someone who had seven years with AIX plus a Solaris cert
an strong edge over someone with equivalent experience but nothing to
prove that they have a good overview of the differences.
When I was a kid, I used to think that getting a blackbelt in a martial
art meant that you were one bad mother. If you had a blackbelt, you might
as well be a Ninja. Now, understanding how martial arts really work, a
first-degree blackbelt is merely a sign that you have the theory and basics
down well enough to really begin learning.
People who think certs of no value whatsoever are being just as silly as
those who think that they mean you're an expert. One just has to be
realistic.
Jer
| |
| Anthony Mandic 2004-01-23, 4:36 pm |
| In comp.unix.solaris alcesteatxmissiondot@com.or.net wrote:quote:
> If I am going to hire someone has a UNIX sysadmin, they better be able to
> pass the SCNA and/or the RHCE, HPUX certification, whatever.
>
> I have two resumes:
>
> Person 1:
> 8 years experience as Sysadmin on Sun.
> 4 year degree
>
> Person 2:
> 5 years experience as a Sysadmin on Sun.
> 4 year degree.
> MCSE, Oracle OCP DBA, Java programming Certificate, LPI Linux Cert.
>
> Who are you going to call first?
It doesn't matter, you tech them both out equally.
| |
| Anthony Mandic 2004-01-23, 4:36 pm |
| Cypherplug wrote:
quote:
>
> It doesn't matter, you tech them both out equally.
"Tech" them out? Yo, Plugger, shouldn't "youz" say -
"Whoz" "ya" "gonna" call? "Da" Ghoostbusters!
Yo, Plugger, why did "youz" forget to forge my copyright notice?
Don't "youz" like readers in other newsgroups to learn "youz"
nicknames?
-am © 2003
| |
| alcesteatxmissiondot@com.or.net 2004-01-23, 4:36 pm |
| If I am going to hire someone has a UNIX sysadmin, they better be able to
pass the SCNA and/or the RHCE, HPUX certification, whatever.
If I'm hiring them as a cisco person, they should be able to have a CCNE (the
middle one, not the CCIE). Likewise for an Oracle DBA and the OCP DBA.
If someone has enough experience to be hired as a full-fledged Sysadmin, DBA,
network admin, etc. then the cert doesn't really show anything they shouldn't
already know.
However, I ask those who do hiring this:
I have a mixed environment: J2EE Servers, Oracle, HPUX, Solaris, Linux, Cisco,
etc. Let's say most boxes are Suns and the position is for a Sun Admin.
I have two resumes:
Person 1:
8 years experience as Sysadmin on Sun.
4 year degree
Person 2:
5 years experience as a Sysadmin on Sun.
4 year degree.
MCSE, Oracle OCP DBA, Java programming Certificate, LPI Linux Cert.
Who are you going to call first?
A certification, while not proving you know enough to fully take on a senior
position in an area, shows you have at least a basic knowledge of what
that technology is all about. It means that when my DBA and my Windows Admin
talks to my Sun Admin, he/she isn't going to stare at them blankly when they
use terms like "RMAN" and "PDC." And push comes to shove and they need to
be the third-string backup, they can probably handle it.
Likewise, I'd give someone who had seven years with AIX plus a Solaris cert
an strong edge over someone with equivalent experience but nothing to
prove that they have a good overview of the differences.
When I was a kid, I used to think that getting a blackbelt in a martial
art meant that you were one bad mother. If you had a blackbelt, you might
as well be a Ninja. Now, understanding how martial arts really work, a
first-degree blackbelt is merely a sign that you have the theory and basics
down well enough to really begin learning.
People who think certs of no value whatsoever are being just as silly as
those who think that they mean you're an expert. One just has to be
realistic.
Jer
| |
| Anthony Mandic 2004-01-23, 4:36 pm |
| In comp.unix.solaris alcesteatxmissiondot@com.or.net wrote:quote:
> If I am going to hire someone has a UNIX sysadmin, they better be able to
> pass the SCNA and/or the RHCE, HPUX certification, whatever.
>
> I have two resumes:
>
> Person 1:
> 8 years experience as Sysadmin on Sun.
> 4 year degree
>
> Person 2:
> 5 years experience as a Sysadmin on Sun.
> 4 year degree.
> MCSE, Oracle OCP DBA, Java programming Certificate, LPI Linux Cert.
>
> Who are you going to call first?
It doesn't matter, you tech them both out equally.
| |
| Anthony Mandic 2004-01-23, 4:36 pm |
| Cypherplug wrote:
quote:
>
> It doesn't matter, you tech them both out equally.
"Tech" them out? Yo, Plugger, shouldn't "youz" say -
"Whoz" "ya" "gonna" call? "Da" Ghoostbusters!
Yo, Plugger, why did "youz" forget to forge my copyright notice?
Don't "youz" like readers in other newsgroups to learn "youz"
nicknames?
-am © 2003
| |
| Rich Teer 2004-01-23, 4:36 pm |
| On 8 Sep 2003, Ghazan Haider wrote:
quote:
> was over 10 years ago for DOS 5.0. I realized then paying for courses
> is just not worth the time, let alone the cash.
I wouldn't say that that is true ALL the time, but in general,
yes, I'd agree. Assuming, of course, that someone else is
picking up the tab! :-)
--
Rich Teer, SCNA, SCSA
President,
Rite Online Inc.
Voice: +1 (250) 979-1638
URL: http://www.rite-online.net
| |
| Rich Teer 2004-01-23, 4:36 pm |
| On 8 Sep 2003, Ghazan Haider wrote:
quote:
> was over 10 years ago for DOS 5.0. I realized then paying for courses
> is just not worth the time, let alone the cash.
I wouldn't say that that is true ALL the time, but in general,
yes, I'd agree. Assuming, of course, that someone else is
picking up the tab! :-)
--
Rich Teer, SCNA, SCSA
President,
Rite Online Inc.
Voice: +1 (250) 979-1638
URL: http://www.rite-online.net
| |
| gary drummond 2004-01-23, 4:37 pm |
|
Chuck wrote:quote:
>
> Rich Teer wrote:
>
>
> Here ya go!
>
> http://www.goarmy.com/jobs/mos/mos11B.htm
>
> *grin*
>
> -Chuck
Damn, I was trained in the Marines, but just like the Unix jobs here,
X years experience doesn't count because I'm over 50+. The best way for
HR to avoid the Viet Nam Era Veteran's Act, is DON'T interview a VET...
(Or, keep adding requirements to eliminate US workers, then hire an
H1-B at 1/3 the cost-like Sun/Sprint/SBC/...)
Gary
| |
| gary drummond 2004-01-23, 4:37 pm |
|
Rich Teer wrote:quote:
>
> On Sun, 7 Sep 2003, Josh McKee wrote:
>
>
> None whatsoever, IMHO.
>
> --
> Rich Teer, SCNA, SCSA
>
> President,
> Rite Online Inc.
>
> Voice: +1 (250) 979-1638
> URL: http://www.rite-online.net
Well, to inject a negative in this thread, COST!
A friend of mine got certified on Solaris. It took him 2 times on two
of the tests, and once on one of them. $150 each test.
With Brainbench's Unix (Generic) test, it took him 3 times @$50 each
to pass.
He missed one too many questions on his first Sun Cert. One of the
questions was like: "How much memory is reauired to install Sol2.6
on a model xx Sparc?". He remembered that it took 1kMB to run, but
didn't remember it took only 4MB to install.
What the hell does that have to do with anything? Why would anyone
install something that couldn't run? Why is a question like this
even on a test, since it is model specific-not Solaris specific?
He kept flunking the sh questions on the brainbench tests, which
seems much more relative to the scripting part of their test, than
Sun's question was...
The flip side is that for a certification site, Brainbench fails
the validation testing for most of their pages!
From W3C's site.
URL=http://www.brainbench.com/xml/bb/individuals/individuals.xml
....
was not able to extract a character encoding labeling from any of the
valid sources for such information. Without encoding information it is
impossible
to validate the document. The sources I tried are:
The HTTP Content-Type field.
The XML Declaration.
The HTML "META" element.
And I even tried to autodetect it using the algorithm defined in
Appendix F of the XML 1.0 Recommendation.
Since none of these sources yielded any usable information, I will not
be able to validate this document. Sorry. Please make sure you specify
the
character encoding in use.
....
I would assume they have "Certified Developers" working for them!?
Gary
PS-My friend was a bit better at supporting our site, he knew clustering
much better, but I got a 98% my first time on Brainbench's test. Cert's
may be a measure in testing, but not a measure of performance. He got
the
perm position, I was released from the contract. They went the Windows
route later, and he was canned along with the Oracle people!
| |
| gary drummond 2004-01-23, 4:37 pm |
|
Chuck wrote:quote:
>
> Rich Teer wrote:
>
>
> Here ya go!
>
> http://www.goarmy.com/jobs/mos/mos11B.htm
>
> *grin*
>
> -Chuck
Damn, I was trained in the Marines, but just like the Unix jobs here,
X years experience doesn't count because I'm over 50+. The best way for
HR to avoid the Viet Nam Era Veteran's Act, is DON'T interview a VET...
(Or, keep adding requirements to eliminate US workers, then hire an
H1-B at 1/3 the cost-like Sun/Sprint/SBC/...)
Gary
| |
| gary drummond 2004-01-23, 4:37 pm |
|
Rich Teer wrote:quote:
>
> On Sun, 7 Sep 2003, Josh McKee wrote:
>
>
> None whatsoever, IMHO.
>
> --
> Rich Teer, SCNA, SCSA
>
> President,
> Rite Online Inc.
>
> Voice: +1 (250) 979-1638
> URL: http://www.rite-online.net
Well, to inject a negative in this thread, COST!
A friend of mine got certified on Solaris. It took him 2 times on two
of the tests, and once on one of them. $150 each test.
With Brainbench's Unix (Generic) test, it took him 3 times @$50 each
to pass.
He missed one too many questions on his first Sun Cert. One of the
questions was like: "How much memory is reauired to install Sol2.6
on a model xx Sparc?". He remembered that it took 1kMB to run, but
didn't remember it took only 4MB to install.
What the hell does that have to do with anything? Why would anyone
install something that couldn't run? Why is a question like this
even on a test, since it is model specific-not Solaris specific?
He kept flunking the sh questions on the brainbench tests, which
seems much more relative to the scripting part of their test, than
Sun's question was...
The flip side is that for a certification site, Brainbench fails
the validation testing for most of their pages!
From W3C's site.
URL=http://www.brainbench.com/xml/bb/individuals/individuals.xml
....
was not able to extract a character encoding labeling from any of the
valid sources for such information. Without encoding information it is
impossible
to validate the document. The sources I tried are:
The HTTP Content-Type field.
The XML Declaration.
The HTML "META" element.
And I even tried to autodetect it using the algorithm defined in
Appendix F of the XML 1.0 Recommendation.
Since none of these sources yielded any usable information, I will not
be able to validate this document. Sorry. Please make sure you specify
the
character encoding in use.
....
I would assume they have "Certified Developers" working for them!?
Gary
PS-My friend was a bit better at supporting our site, he knew clustering
much better, but I got a 98% my first time on Brainbench's test. Cert's
may be a measure in testing, but not a measure of performance. He got
the
perm position, I was released from the contract. They went the Windows
route later, and he was canned along with the Oracle people!
| |
| Philip J. Koenig 2004-01-23, 4:38 pm |
| In article <3F630628.D2DC7C0C@sbcglobal.net>, gdrumm@sbcglobal.net (gary drummond)
writes...
quote:
> Damn, I was trained in the Marines, but just like the Unix jobs here,
> X years experience doesn't count because I'm over 50+. The best way for
> HR to avoid the Viet Nam Era Veteran's Act, is DON'T interview a VET...
> (Or, keep adding requirements to eliminate US workers, then hire an
> H1-B at 1/3 the cost-like Sun/Sprint/SBC/...)
You may be happy to know that there are plans to slash the
number of H-1B visas issued annually very soon.
http://news.com.com/2100-1036_3-5080288.html
--
* Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which *
* differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are *
* even incapable of forming such opinions. -- Albert Einstein *
* *
* To send email, remove numbers and spaces: pjkusenet64 @ ekahuna27 . com *
* Simple answers are for simple minds. Try a new way of looking at things. *
| |
|
| John Philcox wrote:
quote:
> Hello to all:
>
> I'm trying to find out if people are taking the Security admin certification or
> if they plan to.
> Any indication of whether this is taking off or not would be extremely useful.
>
> Thanks
>
> John
Not I. I do not believe in certifications and any company that prefer
candidates that do, I do not want to work for anyway. Anyone can cram
for a test, but using a certification as a measuring stick for ability
is a no-no in the IT industry.
As an IT Director, when I request resumes for jobs from head hunters I
request that they strip all certifications from resumes just so they
don't cloud the issue. Especially the useless XXX MCSE. lol
Just my 2 cents. I surely would not shell out money out of my own pocket
to take the tests. In my opiniion, the tests should be free, since
having ceritfied techies helps promote the products.
-Rhugga
| |
|
| Chuck wrote:quote:
> Not I. I do not believe in certifications and any company that prefer
> candidates that do, I do not want to work for anyway. Anyone can cram
> for a test, but using a certification as a measuring stick for ability
> is a no-no in the IT industry.
>
> As an IT Director, when I request resumes for jobs from head hunters I
> request that they strip all certifications from resumes just so they
> don't cloud the issue. Especially the useless XXX MCSE. lol
>
> Just my 2 cents. I surely would not shell out money out of my own pocket
> to take the tests. In my opiniion, the tests should be free, since
> having ceritfied techies helps promote the products.
>
> -Rhugga
Probably one of the most sensible things I have read in a long
time. Nice one!
There is no substitute for experience and knowledge.
Would you rather have someone with 1 years experience
and 10 certificates or 10 years experience and no
certificates? I know this can depend, but the general
rule would be that the 10 year experienced person would
be more knowledgable and adaptable.
| |
| Alessandro Selli 2004-01-23, 4:47 pm |
| Il giorno Wed, 3 Sep 2003, Chuck cos=EC ha scritto:
[...]
|Just my 2 cents. I surely would not shell out money out of my own pocket
|to take the tests. In my opiniion, the tests should be free, since
|having ceritfied techies helps promote the products.
Unless one is already working for an IT firm, than the employer should
pick up the price tag.
Sandro
--=20
Bellum se ipsum alet
La guerra nutre se stessa
Livio, Ab urbe condita, XXXIV,9
| |
|
| Jonno wrote:
quote:
> Rich Teer wrote:
>
>
>
> Move to India or China!!!!!
Man, I hear there is HELLA consulting work in Qatar. (That is the
extremelly rich country near Iraq where our current military HQ is)
Not sure how safe things are their right now, but the country is sick
with cash and right now the telecom industry in exploding their, also
there is some new deal with the US's dept. of Education where several
large universities are going to have campuses their. (or something like
that)
Anyway, I hear the is a shitload of coin to be made there.
Rhugga
| |
| Rich Teer 2004-01-23, 4:47 pm |
| On Wed, 3 Sep 2003, Chuck wrote:
quote:
> Man, I hear there is HELLA consulting work in Qatar. (That is the
> extremelly rich country near Iraq where our current military HQ is)
>
> Not sure how safe things are their right now, but the country is sick
> with cash and right now the telecom industry in exploding their, also
> there is some new deal with the US's dept. of Education where several
> large universities are going to have campuses their. (or something like
> that)
>
> Anyway, I hear the is a shitload of coin to be made there.
Sweet! WHere do I sign up? :-)
--
Rich Teer, SCNA, SCSA
President,
Rite Online Inc.
Voice: +1 (250) 979-1638
URL: http://www.rite-online.net
| |
| John Philcox 2004-01-23, 4:47 pm |
| Rich Teer <rich.teer@rite-group.com> wrote in message news:<Pine.GSO.4.44.0309031120430.8471-100000@zaphod>...quote:
> On Wed, 3 Sep 2003, Chuck wrote:
>
>
> Sweet! WHere do I sign up? :-)
Thanks for the info, BTW, I also agree that experience counts for much more
than the passing of a specific exam, sat down answering some questions. The
point was made above though, with two equally experienced candidates, one
with the relevant certification and one without, which one would you take?
and why?
Also, do you think the cert would be more valuable if it included (like
Redhat does I've been told), a practical hands-on session where the
candidate has to a) install the system to some defined specs, b) load and
configure additional services and c) troubleshoot some problems to get the
system working again?
Thanks for your input.
John
| |
| Josh McKee 2004-01-23, 4:47 pm |
| On 3 Sep 2003 15:06:18 -0700, john.philcox@mobile-ventures.net (John
Philcox) wrote:
quote:
>Rich Teer <rich.teer@rite-group.com> wrote in message news:<Pine.GSO.4.44.0309031120430.8471-100000@zaphod>...
>
>Thanks for the info, BTW, I also agree that experience counts for much more
>than the passing of a specific exam, sat down answering some questions. The
>point was made above though, with two equally experienced candidates, one
>with the relevant certification and one without, which one would you take?
>and why?
>
>Also, do you think the cert would be more valuable if it included (like
>Redhat does I've been told), a practical hands-on session where the
>candidate has to a) install the system to some defined specs, b) load and
>configure additional services and c) troubleshoot some problems to get the
>system working again?
IMO the RHCE certification certainly has more merit than most other
certification exams. Being a hands on certification one demonstrates
their knowledge by doing not regurgitating.
Josh
| |
|
| I'd rather employ the person who seems to be
the best for the job. I might throw some scenarios
(even customer related ones) to them and see how they
respond. Experience+customer facing VERSUS
experience+qualifications-customer facing
Then the customer facing person would win. Obviously you
can say what the employer wants to hear in an interview
but to an employer sorting the real stuff from the bullsh***ers
shouldn't be too difficult.
| |
|
|
| Ghazan Haider 2004-01-23, 4:48 pm |
| > As an IT Director, when I request resumes for jobs from head hunters Iquote:
> request that they strip all certifications from resumes just so they
> don't cloud the issue. Especially the useless XXX MCSE. lol
What? You mean to tell me I wouldnt make it anywhere near the top of
your list with my CCIE, CISSP, RHCE, SCSA/SCNA etc? They're the only
way I can distinguish myself from joe schmoe.
Lemme tell you where I came from. I came from Pakistan about 3 years
ago to Canada (and have 6 years experience working in IT), but alas do
not yet have a 4-year degree. Currently, to study I have to pay
International student fees (6 times the usual) so that rules the
degree out.
And then most places in North America never consider experience in
Pakistan since it is too easy to fake it on paper and very commonly
done ( do you want 13 years experience?), so technically I have 3
years worth of experience. Never mind I've had a foot in some
opensource projects, and am close to the CCIE Security exam, I really
have nothing to show for it.
I understand the weight of experience, and besides, technical skill in
itself does not suffice to keep you afloat in any company. In small to
medium sized companies, you have to deal with many co-workers and
(hopefully not) their email problems and the likes, put personality
down on your resume. Some certifications however do seperate the
candidates. RedHat's RHCE can filter out a large bunch of the
high-schoolers who have installed Linux and can write basic shell
scripts. Cisco's CCIE is proprietary but since it can select the
network skills better than any other cert, it is being used by many
places and well paid for. After all, Rich Teer would have trouble
finding a sig without those Sun certs :-)
The three basic requirements from an IT candidate are college degree,
experience and certification. Personality is only measured in the
interview. Theres really not much you can do about experience but
wait, which pretty much leaves the ambitious ones with the
certifications rather than having to wait 7 years to get better
leverage against other contestants.
I'll just go with a cert blitz for now..
RHCE/CCIE/SCNA/SCSA/CISSP/MCSA till I can get back to college. By the
time I'm done with the degree I should be in a good position. Am I
making mistakes there?
| |
| Rich Teer 2004-01-23, 4:48 pm |
| On 7 Sep 2003, Ghazan Haider wrote:
quote:
> places and well paid for. After all, Rich Teer would have trouble
> finding a sig without those Sun certs :-)
Nah, there's always sig.BC (Before Certification)! :-)
(One of them is below.)
quote:
> time I'm done with the degree I should be in a good position. Am I
> making mistakes there?
If you're paying for courses, then yes, probably. Luckily,
I "knew my stuff" well ebough to pass my certification exams
without taking any courses.
--
Rich Teer
NT tries to do almost everything UNIX does, but fails - miserably.
The use of Windoze cripples the mind; its use should, therefore, be
regarded as a criminal offence. (With apologies to Edsger W. Dijkstra)
Voice: +1 (250) 979-1638
URL: http://www.rite-online.net
| |
| Josh McKee 2004-01-23, 4:48 pm |
| In article <Pine.GSO.4.44.0309070940520.15528-100000@zaphod>,
Rich Teer <rich.teer@rite-group.com> wrote:
quote:
> On 7 Sep 2003, Ghazan Haider wrote:
>
>
> Nah, there's always sig.BC (Before Certification)! :-)
> (One of them is below.)
>
>
> If you're paying for courses, then yes, probably. Luckily,
> I "knew my stuff" well ebough to pass my certification exams
> without taking any courses.
Which has always been one of my points. If you know your stuff what harm
could obtaining the certifications do?
Josh
| |
| Rich Teer 2004-01-23, 4:48 pm |
| On Sun, 7 Sep 2003, Josh McKee wrote:
quote:
> Which has always been one of my points. If you know your stuff what harm
> could obtaining the certifications do?
None whatsoever, IMHO.
--
Rich Teer, SCNA, SCSA
President,
Rite Online Inc.
Voice: +1 (250) 979-1638
URL: http://www.rite-online.net
| |
| alcesteatxmissiondot@com.or.net 2004-01-23, 4:48 pm |
| If I am going to hire someone has a UNIX sysadmin, they better be able to
pass the SCNA and/or the RHCE, HPUX certification, whatever.
If I'm hiring them as a cisco person, they should be able to have a CCNE (the
middle one, not the CCIE). Likewise for an Oracle DBA and the OCP DBA.
If someone has enough experience to be hired as a full-fledged Sysadmin, DBA,
network admin, etc. then the cert doesn't really show anything they shouldn't
already know.
However, I ask those who do hiring this:
I have a mixed environment: J2EE Servers, Oracle, HPUX, Solaris, Linux, Cisco,
etc. Let's say most boxes are Suns and the position is for a Sun Admin.
I have two resumes:
Person 1:
8 years experience as Sysadmin on Sun.
4 year degree
Person 2:
5 years experience as a Sysadmin on Sun.
4 year degree.
MCSE, Oracle OCP DBA, Java programming Certificate, LPI Linux Cert.
Who are you going to call first?
A certification, while not proving you know enough to fully take on a senior
position in an area, shows you have at least a basic knowledge of what
that technology is all about. It means that when my DBA and my Windows Admin
talks to my Sun Admin, he/she isn't going to stare at them blankly when they
use terms like "RMAN" and "PDC." And push comes to shove and they need to
be the third-string backup, they can probably handle it.
Likewise, I'd give someone who had seven years with AIX plus a Solaris cert
an strong edge over someone with equivalent experience but nothing to
prove that they have a good overview of the differences.
When I was a kid, I used to think that getting a blackbelt in a martial
art meant that you were one bad mother. If you had a blackbelt, you might
as well be a Ninja. Now, understanding how martial arts really work, a
first-degree blackbelt is merely a sign that you have the theory and basics
down well enough to really begin learning.
People who think certs of no value whatsoever are being just as silly as
those who think that they mean you're an expert. One just has to be
realistic.
Jer
| |
| Anthony Mandic 2004-01-23, 4:48 pm |
| In comp.unix.solaris alcesteatxmissiondot@com.or.net wrote:quote:
> If I am going to hire someone has a UNIX sysadmin, they better be able to
> pass the SCNA and/or the RHCE, HPUX certification, whatever.
>
> I have two resumes:
>
> Person 1:
> 8 years experience as Sysadmin on Sun.
> 4 year degree
>
> Person 2:
> 5 years experience as a Sysadmin on Sun.
> 4 year degree.
> MCSE, Oracle OCP DBA, Java programming Certificate, LPI Linux Cert.
>
> Who are you going to call first?
It doesn't matter, you tech them both out equally.
| |
| Anthony Mandic 2004-01-23, 4:48 pm |
| Cypherplug wrote:
quote:
>
> It doesn't matter, you tech them both out equally.
"Tech" them out? Yo, Plugger, shouldn't "youz" say -
"Whoz" "ya" "gonna" call? "Da" Ghoostbusters!
Yo, Plugger, why did "youz" forget to forge my copyright notice?
Don't "youz" like readers in other newsgroups to learn "youz"
nicknames?
-am © 2003
| |
| Ghazan Haider 2004-01-23, 4:48 pm |
| > Nah, there's always sig.BC (Before Certification)! :-)quote:
> (One of them is below.)
Kinda hard to fathom a Teer with a non SCSA/SCNA sig 
quote:
>
> If you're paying for courses, then yes, probably. Luckily,
> I "knew my stuff" well ebough to pass my certification exams
> without taking any courses.
Hell no, I do know all the crap, can give the RHCE,CCNA and SCNA certs
now, but I'm just saving up and going full steam ahead for the CCIE.
I'm using various sun machines for NAT firewall, VPNs, routing using
zebra, domain controller using samba (almost), LDAP server and other
things. Its just time now to gather the expensive routers for a good
home lab for the CCIE. The last time I went to a course in computers
was over 10 years ago for DOS 5.0. I realized then paying for courses
is just not worth the time, let alone the cash.
| |
| Rich Teer 2004-01-23, 4:48 pm |
| On 8 Sep 2003, Ghazan Haider wrote:
quote:
> was over 10 years ago for DOS 5.0. I realized then paying for courses
> is just not worth the time, let alone the cash.
I wouldn't say that that is true ALL the time, but in general,
yes, I'd agree. Assuming, of course, that someone else is
picking up the tab! :-)
--
Rich Teer, SCNA, SCSA
President,
Rite Online Inc.
Voice: +1 (250) 979-1638
URL: http://www.rite-online.net
| |
| gary drummond 2004-01-23, 4:48 pm |
|
Chuck wrote:quote:
>
> Rich Teer wrote:
>
>
> Here ya go!
>
> http://www.goarmy.com/jobs/mos/mos11B.htm
>
> *grin*
>
> -Chuck
Damn, I was trained in the Marines, but just like the Unix jobs here,
X years experience doesn't count because I'm over 50+. The best way for
HR to avoid the Viet Nam Era Veteran's Act, is DON'T interview a VET...
(Or, keep adding requirements to eliminate US workers, then hire an
H1-B at 1/3 the cost-like Sun/Sprint/SBC/...)
Gary
| |
| gary drummond 2004-01-23, 4:48 pm |
|
Rich Teer wrote:quote:
>
> On Sun, 7 Sep 2003, Josh McKee wrote:
>
>
> None whatsoever, IMHO.
>
> --
> Rich Teer, SCNA, SCSA
>
> President,
> Rite Online Inc.
>
> Voice: +1 (250) 979-1638
> URL: http://www.rite-online.net
Well, to inject a negative in this thread, COST!
A friend of mine got certified on Solaris. It took him 2 times on two
of the tests, and once on one of them. $150 each test.
With Brainbench's Unix (Generic) test, it took him 3 times @$50 each
to pass.
He missed one too many questions on his first Sun Cert. One of the
questions was like: "How much memory is reauired to install Sol2.6
on a model xx Sparc?". He remembered that it took 1kMB to run, but
didn't remember it took only 4MB to install.
What the hell does that have to do with anything? Why would anyone
install something that couldn't run? Why is a question like this
even on a test, since it is model specific-not Solaris specific?
He kept flunking the sh questions on the brainbench tests, which
seems much more relative to the scripting part of their test, than
Sun's question was...
The flip side is that for a certification site, Brainbench fails
the validation testing for most of their pages!
From W3C's site.
URL=http://www.brainbench.com/xml/bb/individuals/individuals.xml
....
was not able to extract a character encoding labeling from any of the
valid sources for such information. Without encoding information it is
impossible
to validate the document. The sources I tried are:
The HTTP Content-Type field.
The XML Declaration.
The HTML "META" element.
And I even tried to autodetect it using the algorithm defined in
Appendix F of the XML 1.0 Recommendation.
Since none of these sources yielded any usable information, I will not
be able to validate this document. Sorry. Please make sure you specify
the
character encoding in use.
....
I would assume they have "Certified Developers" working for them!?
Gary
PS-My friend was a bit better at supporting our site, he knew clustering
much better, but I got a 98% my first time on Brainbench's test. Cert's
may be a measure in testing, but not a measure of performance. He got
the
perm position, I was released from the contract. They went the Windows
route later, and he was canned along with the Oracle people!
| |
|
| John Philcox wrote:
quote:
> Hello to all:
>
> I'm trying to find out if people are taking the Security admin certification or
> if they plan to.
> Any indication of whether this is taking off or not would be extremely useful.
>
> Thanks
>
> John
Not I. I do not believe in certifications and any company that prefer
candidates that do, I do not want to work for anyway. Anyone can cram
for a test, but using a certification as a measuring stick for ability
is a no-no in the IT industry.
As an IT Director, when I request resumes for jobs from head hunters I
request that they strip all certifications from resumes just so they
don't cloud the issue. Especially the useless XXX MCSE. lol
Just my 2 cents. I surely would not shell out money out of my own pocket
to take the tests. In my opiniion, the tests should be free, since
having ceritfied techies helps promote the products.
-Rhugga
| |
|
| Chuck wrote:quote:
> Not I. I do not believe in certifications and any company that prefer
> candidates that do, I do not want to work for anyway. Anyone can cram
> for a test, but using a certification as a measuring stick for ability
> is a no-no in the IT industry.
>
> As an IT Director, when I request resumes for jobs from head hunters I
> request that they strip all certifications from resumes just so they
> don't cloud the issue. Especially the useless XXX MCSE. lol
>
> Just my 2 cents. I surely would not shell out money out of my own pocket
> to take the tests. In my opiniion, the tests should be free, since
> having ceritfied techies helps promote the products.
>
> -Rhugga
Probably one of the most sensible things I have read in a long
time. Nice one!
There is no substitute for experience and knowledge.
Would you rather have someone with 1 years experience
and 10 certificates or 10 years experience and no
certificates? I know this can depend, but the general
rule would be that the 10 year experienced person would
be more knowledgable and adaptable.
| |
| Alessandro Selli 2004-01-23, 5:01 pm |
| Il giorno Wed, 3 Sep 2003, Chuck cos=EC ha scritto:
[...]
|Just my 2 cents. I surely would not shell out money out of my own pocket
|to take the tests. In my opiniion, the tests should be free, since
|having ceritfied techies helps promote the products.
Unless one is already working for an IT firm, than the employer should
pick up the price tag.
Sandro
--=20
Bellum se ipsum alet
La guerra nutre se stessa
Livio, Ab urbe condita, XXXIV,9
| |
|
| Jonno wrote:
quote:
> Rich Teer wrote:
>
>
>
> Move to India or China!!!!!
Man, I hear there is HELLA consulting work in Qatar. (That is the
extremelly rich country near Iraq where our current military HQ is)
Not sure how safe things are their right now, but the country is sick
with cash and right now the telecom industry in exploding their, also
there is some new deal with the US's dept. of Education where several
large universities are going to have campuses their. (or something like
that)
Anyway, I hear the is a shitload of coin to be made there.
Rhugga
| |
| Rich Teer 2004-01-23, 5:01 pm |
| On Wed, 3 Sep 2003, Chuck wrote:
quote:
> Man, I hear there is HELLA consulting work in Qatar. (That is the
> extremelly rich country near Iraq where our current military HQ is)
>
> Not sure how safe things are their right now, but the country is sick
> with cash and right now the telecom industry in exploding their, also
> there is some new deal with the US's dept. of Education where several
> large universities are going to have campuses their. (or something like
> that)
>
> Anyway, I hear the is a shitload of coin to be made there.
Sweet! WHere do I sign up? :-)
--
Rich Teer, SCNA, SCSA
President,
Rite Online Inc.
Voice: +1 (250) 979-1638
URL: http://www.rite-online.net
| |
| John Philcox 2004-01-23, 5:01 pm |
| Rich Teer <rich.teer@rite-group.com> wrote in message news:<Pine.GSO.4.44.0309031120430.8471-100000@zaphod>...quote:
> On Wed, 3 Sep 2003, Chuck wrote:
>
>
> Sweet! WHere do I sign up? :-)
Thanks for the info, BTW, I also agree that experience counts for much more
than the passing of a specific exam, sat down answering some questions. The
point was made above though, with two equally experienced candidates, one
with the relevant certification and one without, which one would you take?
and why?
Also, do you think the cert would be more valuable if it included (like
Redhat does I've been told), a practical hands-on session where the
candidate has to a) install the system to some defined specs, b) load and
configure additional services and c) troubleshoot some problems to get the
system working again?
Thanks for your input.
John
| |
| Josh McKee 2004-01-23, 5:01 pm |
| On 3 Sep 2003 15:06:18 -0700, john.philcox@mobile-ventures.net (John
Philcox) wrote:
quote:
>Rich Teer <rich.teer@rite-group.com> wrote in message news:<Pine.GSO.4.44.0309031120430.8471-100000@zaphod>...
>
>Thanks for the info, BTW, I also agree that experience counts for much more
>than the passing of a specific exam, sat down answering some questions. The
>point was made above though, with two equally experienced candidates, one
>with the relevant certification and one without, which one would you take?
>and why?
>
>Also, do you think the cert would be more valuable if it included (like
>Redhat does I've been told), a practical hands-on session where the
>candidate has to a) install the system to some defined specs, b) load and
>configure additional services and c) troubleshoot some problems to get the
>system working again?
IMO the RHCE certification certainly has more merit than most other
certification exams. Being a hands on certification one demonstrates
their knowledge by doing not regurgitating.
Josh
| |
|
| I'd rather employ the person who seems to be
the best for the job. I might throw some scenarios
(even customer related ones) to them and see how they
respond. Experience+customer facing VERSUS
experience+qualifications-customer facing
Then the customer facing person would win. Obviously you
can say what the employer wants to hear in an interview
but to an employer sorting the real stuff from the bullsh***ers
shouldn't be too difficult.
| |
|
|
| Ghazan Haider 2004-01-23, 5:01 pm |
| > As an IT Director, when I request resumes for jobs from head hunters Iquote:
> request that they strip all certifications from resumes just so they
> don't cloud the issue. Especially the useless XXX MCSE. lol
What? You mean to tell me I wouldnt make it anywhere near the top of
your list with my CCIE, CISSP, RHCE, SCSA/SCNA etc? They're the only
way I can distinguish myself from joe schmoe.
Lemme tell you where I came from. I came from Pakistan about 3 years
ago to Canada (and have 6 years experience working in IT), but alas do
not yet have a 4-year degree. Currently, to study I have to pay
International student fees (6 times the usual) so that rules the
degree out.
And then most places in North America never consider experience in
Pakistan since it is too easy to fake it on paper and very commonly
done ( do you want 13 years experience?), so technically I have 3
years worth of experience. Never mind I've had a foot in some
opensource projects, and am close to the CCIE Security exam, I really
have nothing to show for it.
I understand the weight of experience, and besides, technical skill in
itself does not suffice to keep you afloat in any company. In small to
medium sized companies, you have to deal with many co-workers and
(hopefully not) their email problems and the likes, put personality
down on your resume. Some certifications however do seperate the
candidates. RedHat's RHCE can filter out a large bunch of the
high-schoolers who have installed Linux and can write basic shell
scripts. Cisco's CCIE is proprietary but since it can select the
network skills better than any other cert, it is being used by many
places and well paid for. After all, Rich Teer would have trouble
finding a sig without those Sun certs :-)
The three basic requirements from an IT candidate are college degree,
experience and certification. Personality is only measured in the
interview. Theres really not much you can do about experience but
wait, which pretty much leaves the ambitious ones with the
certifications rather than having to wait 7 years to get better
leverage against other contestants.
I'll just go with a cert blitz for now..
RHCE/CCIE/SCNA/SCSA/CISSP/MCSA till I can get back to college. By the
time I'm done with the degree I should be in a good position. Am I
making mistakes there?
| |
| Rich Teer 2004-01-23, 5:01 pm |
| On 7 Sep 2003, Ghazan Haider wrote:
quote:
> places and well paid for. After all, Rich Teer would have trouble
> finding a sig without those Sun certs :-)
Nah, there's always sig.BC (Before Certification)! :-)
(One of them is below.)
quote:
> time I'm done with the degree I should be in a good position. Am I
> making mistakes there?
If you're paying for courses, then yes, probably. Luckily,
I "knew my stuff" well ebough to pass my certification exams
without taking any courses.
--
Rich Teer
NT tries to do almost everything UNIX does, but fails - miserably.
The use of Windoze cripples the mind; its use should, therefore, be
regarded as a criminal offence. (With apologies to Edsger W. Dijkstra)
Voice: +1 (250) 979-1638
URL: http://www.rite-online.net
| |
| Josh McKee 2004-01-23, 5:01 pm |
| In article <Pine.GSO.4.44.0309070940520.15528-100000@zaphod>,
Rich Teer <rich.teer@rite-group.com> wrote:
quote:
> On 7 Sep 2003, Ghazan Haider wrote:
>
>
> Nah, there's always sig.BC (Before Certification)! :-)
> (One of them is below.)
>
>
> If you're paying for courses, then yes, probably. Luckily,
> I "knew my stuff" well ebough to pass my certification exams
> without taking any courses.
Which has always been one of my points. If you know your stuff what harm
could obtaining the certifications do?
Josh
| |
| Rich Teer 2004-01-23, 5:01 pm |
| On Sun, 7 Sep 2003, Josh McKee wrote:
quote:
> Which has always been one of my points. If you know your stuff what harm
> could obtaining the certifications do?
None whatsoever, IMHO.
--
Rich Teer, SCNA, SCSA
President,
Rite Online Inc.
Voice: +1 (250) 979-1638
URL: http://www.rite-online.net
| |
| alcesteatxmissiondot@com.or.net 2004-01-23, 5:01 pm |
| If I am going to hire someone has a UNIX sysadmin, they better be able to
pass the SCNA and/or the RHCE, HPUX certification, whatever.
If I'm hiring them as a cisco person, they should be able to have a CCNE (the
middle one, not the CCIE). Likewise for an Oracle DBA and the OCP DBA.
If someone has enough experience to be hired as a full-fledged Sysadmin, DBA,
network admin, etc. then the cert doesn't really show anything they shouldn't
already know.
However, I ask those who do hiring this:
I have a mixed environment: J2EE Servers, Oracle, HPUX, Solaris, Linux, Cisco,
etc. Let's say most boxes are Suns and the position is for a Sun Admin.
I have two resumes:
Person 1:
8 years experience as Sysadmin on Sun.
4 year degree
Person 2:
5 years experience as a Sysadmin on Sun.
4 year degree.
MCSE, Oracle OCP DBA, Java programming Certificate, LPI Linux Cert.
Who are you going to call first?
A certification, while not proving you know enough to fully take on a senior
position in an area, shows you have at least a basic knowledge of what
that technology is all about. It means that when my DBA and my Windows Admin
talks to my Sun Admin, he/she isn't going to stare at them blankly when they
use terms like "RMAN" and "PDC." And push comes to shove and they need to
be the third-string backup, they can probably handle it.
Likewise, I'd give someone who had seven years with AIX plus a Solaris cert
an strong edge over someone with equivalent experience but nothing to
prove that they have a good overview of the differences.
When I was a kid, I used to think that getting a blackbelt in a martial
art meant that you were one bad mother. If you had a blackbelt, you might
as well be a Ninja. Now, understanding how martial arts really work, a
first-degree blackbelt is merely a sign that you have the theory and basics
down well enough to really begin learning.
People who think certs of no value whatsoever are being just as silly as
those who think that they mean you're an expert. One just has to be
realistic.
Jer
| |
| Anthony Mandic 2004-01-23, 5:01 pm |
| In comp.unix.solaris alcesteatxmissiondot@com.or.net wrote:quote:
> If I am going to hire someone has a UNIX sysadmin, they better be able to
> pass the SCNA and/or the RHCE, HPUX certification, whatever.
>
> I have two resumes:
>
> Person 1:
> 8 years experience as Sysadmin on Sun.
> 4 year degree
>
> Person 2:
> 5 years experience as a Sysadmin on Sun.
> 4 year degree.
> MCSE, Oracle OCP DBA, Java programming Certificate, LPI Linux Cert.
>
> Who are you going to call first?
It doesn't matter, you tech them both out equally.
| |
| Anthony Mandic 2004-01-23, 5:01 pm |
| Cypherplug wrote:
quote:
>
> It doesn't matter, you tech them both out equally.
"Tech" them out? Yo, Plugger, shouldn't "youz" say -
"Whoz" "ya" "gonna" call? "Da" Ghoostbusters!
Yo, Plugger, why did "youz" forget to forge my copyright notice?
Don't "youz" like readers in other newsgroups to learn "youz"
nicknames?
-am © 2003
| |
| Rich Teer 2004-01-23, 5:01 pm |
| On 8 Sep 2003, Ghazan Haider wrote:
quote:
> was over 10 years ago for DOS 5.0. I realized then paying for courses
> is just not worth the time, let alone the cash.
I wouldn't say that that is true ALL the time, but in general,
yes, I'd agree. Assuming, of course, that someone else is
picking up the tab! :-)
--
Rich Teer, SCNA, SCSA
President,
Rite Online Inc.
Voice: +1 (250) 979-1638
URL: http://www.rite-online.net
| |
| gary drummond 2004-01-23, 5:02 pm |
|
Chuck wrote:quote:
>
> Rich Teer wrote:
>
>
> Here ya go!
>
> http://www.goarmy.com/jobs/mos/mos11B.htm
>
> *grin*
>
> -Chuck
Damn, I was trained in the Marines, but just like the Unix jobs here,
X years experience doesn't count because I'm over 50+. The best way for
HR to avoid the Viet Nam Era Veteran's Act, is DON'T interview a VET...
(Or, keep adding requirements to eliminate US workers, then hire an
H1-B at 1/3 the cost-like Sun/Sprint/SBC/...)
Gary
| |
| gary drummond 2004-01-23, 5:02 pm |
|
Rich Teer wrote:quote:
>
> On Sun, 7 Sep 2003, Josh McKee wrote:
>
>
> None whatsoever, IMHO.
>
> --
> Rich Teer, SCNA, SCSA
>
> President,
> Rite Online Inc.
>
> Voice: +1 (250) 979-1638
> URL: http://www.rite-online.net
Well, to inject a negative in this thread, COST!
A friend of mine got certified on Solaris. It took him 2 times on two
of the tests, and once on one of them. $150 each test.
With Brainbench's Unix (Generic) test, it took him 3 times @$50 each
to pass.
He missed one too many questions on his first Sun Cert. One of the
questions was like: "How much memory is reauired to install Sol2.6
on a model xx Sparc?". He remembered that it took 1kMB to run, but
didn't remember it took only 4MB to install.
What the hell does that have to do with anything? Why would anyone
install something that couldn't run? Why is a question like this
even on a test, since it is model specific-not Solaris specific?
He kept flunking the sh questions on the brainbench tests, which
seems much more relative to the scripting part of their test, than
Sun's question was...
The flip side is that for a certification site, Brainbench fails
the validation testing for most of their pages!
From W3C's site.
URL=http://www.brainbench.com/xml/bb/individuals/individuals.xml
....
was not able to extract a character encoding labeling from any of the
valid sources for such information. Without encoding information it is
impossible
to validate the document. The sources I tried are:
The HTTP Content-Type field.
The XML Declaration.
The HTML "META" element.
And I even tried to autodetect it using the algorithm defined in
Appendix F of the XML 1.0 Recommendation.
Since none of these sources yielded any usable information, I will not
be able to validate this document. Sorry. Please make sure you specify
the
character encoding in use.
....
I would assume they have "Certified Developers" working for them!?
Gary
PS-My friend was a bit better at supporting our site, he knew clustering
much better, but I got a 98% my first time on Brainbench's test. Cert's
may be a measure in testing, but not a measure of performance. He got
the
perm position, I was released from the contract. They went the Windows
route later, and he was canned along with the Oracle people!
|
|
|
|
|