Unix administration - BBC's awful tech/mydoom coverage

Author

BBC's awful tech/mydoom coverage

2004-02-02, 4:33 pm

Anyone listen to the BBC interviewing a Microsoft employee this last
weekend? At one point the questioner ask the MS person whether mydoom
effected only Microsoft computers. The guy flat-out lied and said that
"no, it effects all computers". Worse than MS' standard disinformation
was the lack of any follow-up from the BBC. It's bad enough when US
commercial media skews every story in favor of advertising dollars
but the BBC's failure, at both the interviewer and editorial levels,
is disappointing. Such laggard journalistic standards lend credence to
the findings in the Hutton report.

Teer

Jupiter Jones [MVP]

2004-02-02, 4:34 pm

"Microsoft computers" Microsoft does not make computers.
Was that the exact words of the journalist?
If so, they ought to get someone who at least knows what a computer
is.

--
Jupiter Jones [MVP]
An easier way to read newsgroup messages:
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/...roups/setup.asp
http://www3.telus.net/dandemar/

"TG" <teergrub@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:juGTb.12325$XF6.240232@typhoon.sonic.net...

quote:

> Anyone listen to the BBC interviewing a Microsoft employee this last
> weekend? At one point the questioner ask the MS person whether

mydoom

quote:

> effected only Microsoft computers. The guy flat-out lied and said

that

quote:

> "no, it effects all computers". Worse than MS' standard

disinformation

quote:

> was the lack of any follow-up from the BBC. It's bad enough when US
> commercial media skews every story in favor of advertising dollars
> but the BBC's failure, at both the interviewer and editorial levels,
> is disappointing. Such laggard journalistic standards lend credence

quote:

> the findings in the Hutton report.
>
> Teer

Dominik Lupinski

2004-02-02, 4:34 pm

On Mon, 2 Feb 2004 22:47:53 -0700, Jupiter Jones [MVP] wrote:

quote:

> "Microsoft computers" Microsoft does not make computers.
> Was that the exact words of the journalist?
> If so, they ought to get someone who at least knows what a computer
> is.

And, if so, that wasn't misinformation from the microsoft's side at all.

--
"...they build you up only to tear you down."

Veronica Loell

2004-02-02, 10:34 pm

TG wrote / skrev:

quote:

> Anyone listen to the BBC interviewing a Microsoft employee this last
> weekend? At one point the questioner ask the MS person whether mydoom
> effected only Microsoft computers. The guy flat-out lied and said that
> "no, it effects all computers". Worse than MS' standard disinformation
> was the lack of any follow-up from the BBC. It's bad enough when US
> commercial media skews every story in favor of advertising dollars
> but the BBC's failure, at both the interviewer and editorial levels,
> is disappointing. Such laggard journalistic standards lend credence to
> the findings in the Hutton report.
>
> Teer

Like every other massmailing worm the flood of email effects any
computer running a mailserver, and also anyone trying to download email
from a mailserver. Don't see how that is disinformation, rather a
strangely phrased question if that was not what the journalist meant.

Jack Taylor

2004-02-02, 10:34 pm

"TG" <teergrub@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:juGTb.12325$XF6.240232@typhoon.sonic.net...

quote:

> Anyone listen to the BBC interviewing a Microsoft employee this last
> weekend? At one point the questioner ask the MS person whether mydoom
> effected only Microsoft computers. The guy flat-out lied and said that
> "no, it effects all computers". Worse than MS' standard disinformation
> was the lack of any follow-up from the BBC. It's bad enough when US
> commercial media skews every story in favor of advertising dollars
> but the BBC's failure, at both the interviewer and editorial levels,
> is disappointing. Such laggard journalistic standards lend credence to
> the findings in the Hutton report.

Hmm! About as good as your vocabulary. 'effects all computers' indeed? ITYF
you mean AFFECT. Effect is what it has, affect is what it does. ;-))

Beardy

2004-02-03, 12:34 am

TG wrote:

quote:

> Anyone listen to the BBC interviewing a Microsoft employee this last
> weekend? At one point the questioner ask the MS person whether mydoom
> effected only Microsoft computers. The guy flat-out lied and said that
> "no, it effects all computers". Worse than MS' standard disinformation
> was the lack of any follow-up from the BBC. It's bad enough when US
> commercial media skews every story in favor of advertising dollars
> but the BBC's failure, at both the interviewer and editorial levels,
> is disappointing. Such laggard journalistic standards lend credence to
> the findings in the Hutton report.
>
> Teer

[OT] I am certain that "Teer" is heavily copyrighted in all the Solaris
newsgroups - wouldn't want any confusion to set in ;-)

Kevin Clark

2004-02-03, 3:34 am

TG wrote:

quote:

> Anyone listen to the BBC interviewing a Microsoft employee this last
> weekend? At one point the questioner ask the MS person whether mydoom
> effected only Microsoft computers. The guy flat-out lied and said that
> "no, it effects all computers".

Maybe he thought the questioner meant did it only affect computers at
Microsoft (seeing as that was where he was from). In reply he meant no,
no just theirs, everyones computer was a risk.

Grant Edwards

2004-02-03, 3:34 am

On 2004-02-03, TG <teergrub@spamcop.net> wrote:

quote:

> Anyone listen to the BBC interviewing a Microsoft employee
> this last weekend? At one point the questioner ask the MS
> person whether mydoom effected only Microsoft computers. The
> guy flat-out lied and said that "no, it effects all
> computers". Worse than MS' standard disinformation was the
> lack of any follow-up from the BBC.

I run Linux, and it sure has affected my computer: I'm getting
hit by the e-mails just as hard as anybody running MS-Windows.

If the reporter wanted to know if mydoom only _infected_
computers running MS-Windows, then the git should have asked
that. If he indeed asked if it only _affected_ MS computers,
then the answer from MS is strictly correct (if a bit
disingenuous in it's limited scope).

--
Grant Edwards grante Yow! You can't hurt
at me!! I have an ASSUMABLE
visi.com MORTGAGE!!

Rich Teer

2004-02-03, 4:35 am

On Tue, 3 Feb 2004, Beardy wrote:

quote:

> [OT] I am certain that "Teer" is heavily copyrighted in all the Solaris
> newsgroups - wouldn't want any confusion to set in ;-)

And trademarked! :-)

--
Rich Teer, SCNA, SCSA

President,
Rite Online Inc.

Voice: +1 (250) 979-1638
URL: http://www.rite-online.net

Bill Unruh

2004-02-03, 4:35 am

TG <teergrub@spamcop.net> writes:

]Anyone listen to the BBC interviewing a Microsoft employee this last
]weekend? At one point the questioner ask the MS person whether mydoom
]effected only Microsoft computers. The guy flat-out lied and said that
]"no, it effects all computers". Worse than MS' standard disinformation

The mydoom virus DOES affect all computers. My mailbox has been
innundated with both MyDoom and bounce messages from stupid sites which
bounce mydoom and is slower because of having to deal with it.
And I run Linux. A linux computer cannot be used to
propagate mydoom, which is what you mean, but the computer is affected
by it. Ie, he did not lie. However, the interviewer could have been a
bit more knowledgeable in the question he asked.

]was the lack of any follow-up from the BBC. It's bad enough when US
]commercial media skews every story in favor of advertising dollars
]but the BBC's failure, at both the interviewer and editorial levels,
]is disappointing. Such laggard journalistic standards lend credence to
]the findings in the Hutton report.

Richard Tobin

2004-02-03, 5:36 am

In article <bvombu$585$1@string.physics.ubc.ca>,
Bill Unruh <unruh@string.physics.ubc.ca> wrote:

quote:

>The mydoom virus DOES affect all computers.

It has had absolutely no effect on any of mine.

-- Richard
--
Spam filter: to mail me from a .com/.net site, put my surname in the headers.

FreeBSD rules!

Jim Slager

2004-02-03, 9:35 am

There are several ways to interpret the question: computers made by MS,
computers at MS, computers running MS OS, etc. I can think of no possible
interpretation in which the answer is anything but accurate and truthful.

"TG" <teergrub@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:juGTb.12325$XF6.240232@typhoon.sonic.net...

quote:

> Anyone listen to the BBC interviewing a Microsoft employee this last
> weekend? At one point the questioner ask the MS person whether mydoom
> effected only Microsoft computers. The guy flat-out lied and said that
> "no, it effects all computers". Worse than MS' standard disinformation
> was the lack of any follow-up from the BBC. It's bad enough when US
> commercial media skews every story in favor of advertising dollars
> but the BBC's failure, at both the interviewer and editorial levels,
> is disappointing. Such laggard journalistic standards lend credence to
> the findings in the Hutton report.
>
> Teer

Rich Teer

2004-02-03, 9:35 am

On Tue, 3 Feb 2004, Jim Slager wrote:

Please don't top post.

quote:

> There are several ways to interpret the question: computers made by MS,
> computers at MS, computers running MS OS, etc. I can think of no possible
> interpretation in which the answer is anything but accurate and truthful.

Obviously the interviewer asked the wrong question and/or the M$
spokesman deliberately interpreted in his best interests. The
question posed should have been "Is MyDoom only propegated by
computers running an M$ operating system and/or email client?".

The answer to that, is of course, yes.

--
Rich Teer, SCNA, SCSA

President,
Rite Online Inc.

Voice: +1 (250) 979-1638
URL: http://www.rite-online.net

Richard Steiner

2004-02-03, 9:35 am

Here in comp.os.linux.misc,
richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) spake unto us, saying:

quote:

>Bill Unruh <unruh@string.physics.ubc.ca> wrote:
>
>
>It has had absolutely no effect on any of mine.

No impact on mine, either. Thanks, Postini! :-)

--
-Rich Steiner >>>---> http://www.visi.com/~rsteiner >>>---> Eden Prairie, MN
OS/2 + eCS + Linux + Win95 + DOS + PC/GEOS + Executor = PC Hobbyist Heaven!
Applications analyst/designer/developer (14 yrs) seeking employment.
See web site above for resume/CV and background.

Alan Connor

2004-02-03, 11:34 am

On Tue, 03 Feb 2004 23:11:15 GMT, Rich Teer wrote:

quote:

>
>
> On Tue, 3 Feb 2004, Jim Slager wrote:
>
> Please don't top post.

Right! He can't top post but YOU can have an overly-large signature that
amounts to nothing but spam.

I wonder who would do business with an obvious hyocrite and scofflaw?

quote:

>
>
> Obviously the interviewer asked the wrong question and/or the M$
> spokesman deliberately interpreted in his best interests. The
> question posed should have been "Is MyDoom only propegated by
> computers running an M$ operating system and/or email client?".
>
> The answer to that, is of course, yes.
>
> --
> XXXX XXXX, XXXX, XXXX
>
> XXXXXXXXX,
> XXXX XXXXXX XXX.
>
> XXXXX: +Y (YYY) YYY-YYYY
> XXX: XXXX://XXX.XXXX-XXXXXX.XXX

Information in sig obscured by switching letters for X and numbers for Y,
but otherwise untouched.

A clear Netiquette violation: The limit for sigs is 4 lines.

And it is downright SLEAZY to use the Usenet as a vehicle for
commercial ads.

AC

Dave Hinz

2004-02-03, 12:34 pm

On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 00:32:00 GMT, Alan Connor <zzzzzz@xxx.yyy> wrote:

quote:

> On Tue, 03 Feb 2004 23:11:15 GMT, Rich Teer wrote:
>
> Right! He can't top post but YOU can have an overly-large signature that
> amounts to nothing but spam.

Let's see - Rich Teer, long time and valued contributer to comp.unix.admin.
You, well, who knows.

quote:

> I wonder who would do business with an obvious hyocrite and scofflaw?

Law? Yeah, it's more than 4 lines, but his quality posts have historically
distracted me from noticing that his sigfile is longer than suggested.

quote:

> A clear Netiquette violation: The limit for sigs is 4 lines.
>
> And it is downright SLEAZY to use the Usenet as a vehicle for
> commercial ads.

And yet, Rich provides signal, while you provide...what's that word again?
Oh yeah, "noise".

Bev A. Kupf

2004-02-03, 1:36 pm

Organization: Bev's House of Pancakes
Reply-To: bevakupf@those_who_need_to_know_have_it
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X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net
X-Trace: newssvr31.news.prodigy.com 1075860829 ST000 165.124.253.94 (Tue, 03 Feb 2004 21:13:49 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 21:13:49 EST
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Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 02:13:49 GMT
Xref: intern1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com comp.unix.admin:115819

On 4 Feb 2004 02:01:02 GMT,
Dave Hinz (davehinz@spamcop.net) wrote:

quote:

> Let's see - Rich Teer, long time and valued contributer to comp.unix.admin.
> You, well, who knows.
>
>
> Law? Yeah, it's more than 4 lines, but his quality posts have historically
> distracted me from noticing that his sigfile is longer than suggested.

Let's spend a moment on this 4 line signature nonsense. It has its
historical origins when our nntp spools were on 200 MB disks, and UUCP
feeds were on 2400 bps modems (yes, I realize that there are many here
who preceed 200 MB disks and 2400 bps - but you get the frickin' idea).

The limit is completely irrelevant today. Top-posting on the other
hand is _not_. It remains as hard to follow a thread that is messed
up top-posting today as it was twenty years ago.

And like Dave Hinz, I've never noticed the length of Rich Teer's signature.
The content of his posts are sufficient to capture my attention.

Beverly
--
Bev A. Kupf
"The lyfe so short, the craft so long to lerne" -- Chaucer
Tintin turns 75 <http://www.tintin.com>

Grant Edwards

2004-02-03, 1:36 pm

In article <Pine.SOL.4.58.0402031508560.20308@zaphod.rite-group.com>, Rich Teer wrote:

quote:

>
> Obviously the interviewer asked the wrong question

Yes.

quote:

> and/or the M$ spokesman deliberately interpreted in his best
> interests.

Of course he did. That's the job of a spokesman.

--
Grant Edwards grante Yow! If this is the DATING
at GAME I want to know your
visi.com FAVORITE PLANET! Do I get
th' MICROWAVE MOPED?

Roger Marquis

2004-02-05, 2:39 am

In comp.unix.solaris Rich Teer <rich.teer@rite-group.com> wrote:

quote:

>On Tue, 3 Feb 2004, Jim Slager wrote:
>Please don't top post.

Oh come on Rich, Jim's post was perfectly legible. Unless you limit
your complaints to those top posters who aren't clear, and broaden
them to include bottom posts that fail to trim quotes, you're simply
being pedantic. Better to stick to the technical subject matter.

Speaking of which, Slashdot has a story today about the BBC linking
myDoom to Linux.
<http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid...ort=3&op=Change>
<http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3457823.stm>

Hard to ignore the implications i.e, that they've sold the editorial
policy to MS. Not unlike our own once-impartial NPR. Sad reflection
on journalistic ethics. Be glad Dan Gillmor doesn't work for either
of these "news" organizations. <http://www.dangillmor.com/>

--
Roger Marquis
Roble Systems Consulting
http://www.roble.com/

Jim Slager

2004-02-05, 5:37 am

I'm relatively new to these newsgroups and didn't realize there was any
policy against top posting. I simply chose to reply directly to Rich's
original post because I wasn't addressing the previous reply. I'm still not
clear what the objection to top posting is.

But, anyway, if someone asked me "whether mydoom effected only Microsoft
computers" I would first assume he meant affected as in "influenced" rather
than effected which means "brought about" (although maybe these words mean
something else in UK). Then there would be the problem of what "Microsoft
computers" means which I probably would have decided meant computers running
MS sw but could also mean computers at MS since mydoom was expected to
attach those as it did SCO's. So, I think the question might have been a
good question and the answer was truthful and accurate. Of course I didn't
hear the interview so maybe this one question is not representive of the
whole interview. I searched the BBC's website but couldn't find a
transcript.

In any case, I guess it has always been pretty clear that the mainstream
media doesn't really have the expertise needed to cover technical issues.
As for whether the whole issue of mydoom should be taken as evidence that MS
is too busy making money to deliver a good product, which I think is the
real issue behind the original post, I don't think the answer is clear. For
some strange reason when I find myself with people who attack MS then I end
up defending MS while if I find myself with people defending MS then I
attack MS. I'm not usually such a contrarian. While unix is a wonderful
operating system it is at least twice as old as windows and 4x? as old as NT
and has never been subjected to maybe a billion unsophisticated consumers.
So it is just not fair to compare them. As to whether there is any excuse
for the latest XP computers to be propagating mydoom, if they do, I think
that is a fair question.

Sorry for all the verbage.

"Roger Marquis" <not-for-mail@roble.com> wrote in message
news:bvtq8v$af$1@news.mainstreet.net...

quote:

> In comp.unix.solaris Rich Teer <rich.teer@rite-group.com> wrote:
>
> Oh come on Rich, Jim's post was perfectly legible. Unless you limit
> your complaints to those top posters who aren't clear, and broaden
> them to include bottom posts that fail to trim quotes, you're simply
> being pedantic. Better to stick to the technical subject matter.
>
> Speaking of which, Slashdot has a story today about the BBC linking
> myDoom to Linux.
>

<http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid...t=&threshold=1&
mode=thread&commentsort=3&op=Change>

quote:

> <http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3457823.stm>
>
> Hard to ignore the implications i.e, that they've sold the editorial
> policy to MS. Not unlike our own once-impartial NPR. Sad reflection
> on journalistic ethics. Be glad Dan Gillmor doesn't work for either
> of these "news" organizations. <http://www.dangillmor.com/>
>
> --
> Roger Marquis
> Roble Systems Consulting
> http://www.roble.com/

Chris Baker

2004-02-05, 5:37 am

Some people get all pissy over topposting although if you're following a
thread it's perfectly acceptable. On the other people get pissy over bottom
posting because they have to scroll down. Only solution is to remove what
you're replying to which doesn't aid following the thread.

If you're responding to various points within a previous post point-by-point
then obviously top posting isn't gonna work, but otherwise it's fine.

Generally what gets on everyone's nerves more than top/bottom posting is
people leaving the entire previous posts in and only addressing one point of
them rather than trimming the unneeded.

quote:

> I'm relatively new to these newsgroups and didn't realize there was any
> policy against top posting. I simply chose to reply directly to Rich's
> original post because I wasn't addressing the previous reply. I'm still

not

quote:

> clear what the objection to top posting is.

As for the actual topic, I think generally the bbc aims more at a general
audience who might not even realise linux exists or what it is, and thus
it's a lot easier to say "pcs are affected" rather than "windows pcs are
affected". It is just a technicality (ok innaccuracy) but it's not really
something to get upset about because people in the know can filter what is
meant whereas people not in the know can't

joe@invalid.address

2004-02-05, 6:39 am

"Chris Baker" <chris_21m@hotmail.com> writes:

quote:

> Some people get all pissy over topposting although if you're
> following a thread it's perfectly acceptable. On the other people
> get pissy over bottom posting because they have to scroll down. Only
> solution is to remove what you're replying to which doesn't aid
> following the thread.

Well, no. The solution is to edit what you're replying to so that you
only quote the relevant bits, and then reply to them.

quote:

> If you're responding to various points within a previous post
> point-by-point then obviously top posting isn't gonna work, but
> otherwise it's fine.

Until someone else wants to respond, in which case you wind up with a
mix, which turns into something very difficult to follow.

quote:

> Generally what gets on everyone's nerves more than top/bottom
> posting is people leaving the entire previous posts in and only
> addressing one point of them rather than trimming the unneeded.
>

How easy is it to follow this discussion?

Subject: Re: help
From: top-poster <top-poster@someplace.else>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 22:01:41 GMT
Newsgroups: comp.unix.shell
Organization: Top-posters United

Wait a minute. If your computer isn't on, how are you posting this?
clueless <clueless@someplace.somewhere> writes:[QUOTE][color=darkred]
> I did. What do I do now?
>
> top-poster <top-poster@someplace.else> writes:
>
>
> --
> This is my tagline. It's not much, but it's mine

--
This is my tagline, and it's the best there is.

Also take a look at

http://catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/T/top-post.html
http://www.uwasa.fi/~ts/http/quote.html
http://members.fortunecity.com/nnqweb/
http://www.guckes.net/mail/editing.html

Having said that, different groups have different preferences about
this. Some don't mind it while others do. It's polite (at least) to
abide by the preferences of the group you're in. It's also easier for
someone to help you if you make the thread easier to follow.

joe
--
I think people should be able to make up their own minds for me
- Monty Python

Rich Teer

2004-02-05, 6:39 am

On Thu, 5 Feb 2004, Jim Slager wrote:

quote:

> I'm relatively new to these newsgroups and didn't realize there was any
> policy against top posting. I simply chose to reply directly to Rich's
> original post because I wasn't addressing the previous reply. I'm still not
> clear what the objection to top posting is.

It messes up the flow of the conversation. Consider this:

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What's the most annoying thing on Usenet and in email?

Dunno about you, but I read top down, not bottom up...

quote:

> In any case, I guess it has always been pretty clear that the mainstream
> media doesn't really have the expertise needed to cover technical issues.

Yes, that's true. Although ironically, how viruses spread isn't
that technical and can be put into quite simple layman's terms.

quote:

> and has never been subjected to maybe a billion unsophisticated consumers.
> So it is just not fair to compare them. As to whether there is any excuse

Tell that to the latest generation of Mac users. :-) Granted, there's
fewer of them, but still...

--
Rich Teer, SCNA, SCSA

President,
Rite Online Inc.

Voice: +1 (250) 979-1638
URL: http://www.rite-online.net

Jim Slager

2004-02-05, 7:36 am

Rich, I see your point now about top posting. As for MAC I'm certain that
it is a great OS although I have no experience with it. It does represent a
smaller target for hackers but maybe it is immune anyway. I would think
that XP *should* be at least as secure as Mac since XP was developed when
hacking was well known and was pretty much able to start from scratch
without the crushing burden of compatibility with dos. If not then MS
should have to explain it.

"Rich Teer" <rich.teer@rite-group.com> wrote in message
news:Pine.SOL.4.58.0402051158220.22955@zaphod.rite-group.com...

quote:

> On Thu, 5 Feb 2004, Jim Slager wrote:
>
not[QUOTE][color=darkred]
>
> It messes up the flow of the conversation. Consider this:
>
> A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
> Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
> A: Top-posting.
> Q: What's the most annoying thing on Usenet and in email?
>
> Dunno about you, but I read top down, not bottom up...
>
issues.[QUOTE][color=darkred]
>
> Yes, that's true. Although ironically, how viruses spread isn't
> that technical and can be put into quite simple layman's terms.
>
consumers.[QUOTE][color=darkred]
excuse[QUOTE][color=darkred]
>
> Tell that to the latest generation of Mac users. :-) Granted, there's
> fewer of them, but still...
>
> --
> Rich Teer, SCNA, SCSA
>
> President,
> Rite Online Inc.
>
> Voice: +1 (250) 979-1638
> URL: http://www.rite-online.net

Jupiter Jones [MVP]

2004-02-05, 7:36 am

There is no policy against top or bottom posting.
In many groups you will see both, in which case both are acceptable.
If you do enter a group where one is the norm, use the group norm.

There have been many long arguments about which is best.
However usually the fanatics at either end tend to create a problem
where one did not exist.
Some newsreaders use top posting as the default so many start that way
and continue.
The book comparison is not all that valid since newsgroups are digital
and a book is paper.
If someone reads a book as a newsgroup, the current page when they
leave and come back is likely open or on top.
My preference is top.
I open a post and read the new information and no need to scroll or
press any keys.
If I want or need older information, I can scroll to get it.

--
Jupiter Jones [MVP]
An easier way to read newsgroup messages:
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/...roups/setup.asp
http://www3.telus.net/dandemar/

"Jim Slager" <jslager@inameU_NO_WHATcom> wrote in message
news:%23BGOuSB7DHA.1596@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...

quote:

> I'm relatively new to these newsgroups and didn't realize there was

any

quote:

> policy against top posting. I simply chose to reply directly to

Rich's

quote:

> original post because I wasn't addressing the previous reply. I'm

still not

quote:

> clear what the objection to top posting is.

Snipped

Jim Slager

2004-02-05, 7:36 am

Jupiter, thanks for the post. It seems to me that top posting makes sense
if you're not replying to what the previous poster said but, rather,
starting a new approach to the original post. But, I guess it is a matter
of personal taste.

"Jupiter Jones [MVP]" <jones_jupiter@hotnomail.com> wrote in message
news:uo3djWC7DHA.2952@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...

quote:

> There is no policy against top or bottom posting.
> In many groups you will see both, in which case both are acceptable.
> If you do enter a group where one is the norm, use the group norm.
>
> There have been many long arguments about which is best.
> However usually the fanatics at either end tend to create a problem
> where one did not exist.
> Some newsreaders use top posting as the default so many start that way
> and continue.
> The book comparison is not all that valid since newsgroups are digital
> and a book is paper.
> If someone reads a book as a newsgroup, the current page when they
> leave and come back is likely open or on top.
> My preference is top.
> I open a post and read the new information and no need to scroll or
> press any keys.
> If I want or need older information, I can scroll to get it.
>
> --
> Jupiter Jones [MVP]
> An easier way to read newsgroup messages:
> http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/...roups/setup.asp
> http://www3.telus.net/dandemar/
>
>
> "Jim Slager" <jslager@inameU_NO_WHATcom> wrote in message
> news:%23BGOuSB7DHA.1596@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> any
> Rich's
> still not
>
> Snipped
>
>

Grant Edwards

2004-02-05, 7:36 am

On 2004-02-05, Jim Slager <jslager@inameU_NO_WHATcom> wrote:

quote:

> Jupiter, thanks for the post. It seems to me that top posting
> makes sense if you're not replying to what the previous poster
> said but, rather, starting a new approach to the original
> post.

If that's what you're doing, then for god's sake don't quote
the whole damned thing when you do it! If you're not
responding to something directly, then _DELETE_IT_. If you are
responding to something, leave it in and reply below that to
which you are replying.

Do you read books back to front, bottom to top? I don't. I
like things in chronological order. Question first, answer
second.

quote:

> But, I guess it is a matter of personal taste.

Sure.

--
Grant Edwards grante Yow! Inside, I'm already
at SOBBING!
visi.com

jpd

2004-02-05, 8:18 am

In article <40229439$0$32546$fa0fcedb@lovejoy.zen.co.uk>, Chris Baker wrote:
> Some people get all pissy over topposting although if you're following a
> thread it's perfectly acceptable.

It's not. Maybe where you hang out, but this threads crosses many groups
where it is thoroughly frowned upon. Hence the need for kill-files.

In short, keep on dreaming. Yes, it was by accident that I saw this post.

> On the other people get pissy over bottom
> posting because they have to scroll down. Only solution is to remove what
> you're replying to which doesn't aid following the thread.

Which is a good solution, except that a bit of context might be useful.
Which you then include, but _only_ that, not the entire post.
And then it's short enough to fit both (context and reply) on one's screen.

> If you're responding to various points within a previous post point-by-point
> then obviously top posting isn't gonna work, but otherwise it's fine.

It's not, if only because careless posting and mailing like that is rude
to the addressee. Then again, some people never do grow up and so never
will go beyond the crayon-drawing phase, or the usenet equivalent.

> not

Fscks up the `flow' of reading, as well as being horribly inefficient
in other ways.

Look at it this way: Now you have the chance to easily quote bits and
pieces and thus deal with lots of topics in a coherent way in one post.
As well as excellent archival posibilities, both of what others sent
you, but also of what you told them. Or at least what's still relevant
of what has been going on. I mean, you didn't quote that easily with
letters, so you have to keep them around, plus that you don't have your
own letter anymore. Maybe a draft, but not the original. So, you have
all the tools for efficient and well-facilitated discussion.

And what do people do? Just include the entire old message, like the
network is nothing more than a badly formatted archival service.

Not being careful with the above is basically saying ``I don't know what
I'm doing, I don't understand the system''. Apart from actually
understanding it, showing off that you don't doesn't make you look better.

And since it's all most people will ever see of you, well...

[color=blue]
> As for the actual topic, I think generally the bbc aims more at a general
> audience who might not even realise linux exists or what it is, and thus
> it's a lot easier to say "pcs are affected" rather than "windows pcs are
> affected". It is just a technicality (ok innaccuracy) but it's not really
> something to get upset about because people in the know can filter what is
> meant whereas people not in the know can't

Too bad about the people not in the know have to be and still refuse to.

--
j p d (at) d s b (dot) t u d e l f t (dot) n l .

Rich Teer

2004-02-05, 10:35 am

On Thu, 5 Feb 2004, Jim Slager wrote:

> Jupiter, thanks for the post. It seems to me that top posting makes sense
> if you're not replying to what the previous poster said but, rather,
> starting a new approach to the original post. But, I guess it is a matter
> of personal taste.

In that case, don't top post: just snip all of what you're replying to.

--
Rich Teer, SCNA, SCSA

President,
Rite Online Inc.

Voice: +1 (250) 979-1638
URL: http://www.rite-online.net

Alan Connor

2004-02-05, 11:35 am

On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 23:46:06 GMT, Rich Teer wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, 5 Feb 2004, Jim Slager wrote:
>
>
> In that case, don't top post: just snip all of what you're replying to.

To Jim Slager:

AND limit your sigs to 4 lines so that they aren't intrusive.

Intrusive sigs are at least as bad as top posting.

A person's post is supposed to be about the subject at hand, not
an excuse to post an ad on the Usenet.

You are being used by this sleazeball hypocrite to do just that.

He OBVIOUSLY cares nothing about the readability of posts.

http://www.faqs.org/usenet/

See the "netiquette" and "rules for posting" links on that page.

Or ask about the subject on news.newusers.questions.

AC

Rich Teer

2004-02-05, 12:35 pm

On Fri, 6 Feb 2004, Alan Connor wrote:

> Intrusive sigs are at least as bad as top posting.
>
> A person's post is supposed to be about the subject at hand, not
> an excuse to post an ad on the Usenet.

I should know better than to bite troll bait like this...

Here's an education for you: someone putting their contact
details in their signature is NOT advertising. If my posts
just consisted of phrases like "hire my company's services"
then yeah, you'd have a point. But if you actually took the
time to read them, you'd see that they (more often than not)
contain helpful information. So far, all I've seen of your
posts is a lot of whining drivel.

Now, run along to bed, Alan: your daddy wants his computer back.

> He OBVIOUSLY cares nothing about the readability of posts.

Actually, I care a lot. Which is why I only use plain text,
wrapped at around 70 columns, and I use inline posting when
replying to posts (trimming material that isn't required to
give context), instead of top posting.

--
Rich Teer, SCNA, SCSA

President,
Rite Online Inc.

Voice: +1 (250) 979-1638
URL: http://www.rite-online.net

Steve O'Hara-Smith

2004-02-05, 12:35 pm

On Thu, 5 Feb 2004 10:20:03 -0800
"Jim Slager" <jslager@inameU_NO_WHATcom> wrote:

JS> I'm relatively new to these newsgroups and didn't realize there was
JS> any policy against top posting. I simply chose to reply directly to
JS> Rich's original post because I wasn't addressing the previous reply.
JS> I'm still not clear what the objection to top posting is.

A: Because it inverts comment and response.

Q: Why is top posting bad.

--
C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors
The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun
You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see:
| http://www.sohara.org/

Dave Hinz

2004-02-05, 1:35 pm

On Thu, 5 Feb 2004 16:16:31 +0000 (UTC), Roger Marquis <not-for-mail@roble.com> wrote:

> Oh come on Rich, Jim's post was perfectly legible. Unless you limit
> your complaints to those top posters who aren't clear, and broaden
> them to include bottom posts that fail to trim quotes, you're simply
> being pedantic. Better to stick to the technical subject matter.

Oh great, we can have _another_ "let's defend top-posting" thread.
These get so much more fascinating as the years go on.

It's interesting; I used to filter out posts crossposted to more than
3 groups, on the theory that they rarely are worth reading. Here I
start using a new newsreader, and almost immediately, that theory
seems to have been shown true yet again. Ah well...time to go set up
another filter.

Alan Connor

2004-02-05, 2:34 pm

On 6 Feb 2004 02:46:24 GMT, Dave Hinz <davehinz@spamcop.net> wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, 5 Feb 2004 16:16:31 +0000 (UTC), Roger Marquis <not-for-mail@roble.com> wrote:
>
>
> Oh great, we can have _another_ "let's defend top-posting" thread.
> These get so much more fascinating as the years go on.
>
> It's interesting; I used to filter out posts crossposted to more than
> 3 groups, on the theory that they rarely are worth reading. Here I
> start using a new newsreader, and almost immediately, that theory
> seems to have been shown true yet again. Ah well...time to go set up
> another filter.
>
>

If only there was a filter for egotistical drivel like this....

AC

2004-02-05, 4:34 pm

In comp.unix.solaris Alan Connor <zzzzzz@xxx.yyy> wrote:
>A person's post is supposed to be about the subject at hand, not
>an excuse to post an ad on the Usenet.
>You are being used by this sleazeball hypocrite to do just that.

I think you're all being used by MS-heads to divert the subject of
this thread.

Not unlike the spammers who constantly try to obfuscate anti-spam
threads with diversions like SPF and such.

Did anyone of you actually listen to the BBC's interview?

TG

Big Brother

2004-02-05, 10:34 pm

x-no-archive: yes
Grant Edwards wrote: news:4022aef2$0$41283$a1866201@newsreade
r.visi.com

> Do you read books back to front, bottom to top? I don't. I
> like things in chronological order.

Did you even read what Jupiter Jones said?

Jupiter Jones [MVP] wrote: news:uo3djWC7DHA.2952@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl

> The book comparison is not all that valid since newsgroups are digital
> and a book is paper.
> If someone reads a book as a newsgroup, the current page when they
> leave and come back is likely open or on top.

--
We're netKKKopped down
But we get up again
You're never gonna keep us down

Grant Edwards

2004-02-06, 1:36 am

On 2004-02-06, Big Brother <me@privacy.net> wrote:
> x-no-archive: yes
> Grant Edwards wrote: news:4022aef2$0$41283$a1866201@newsreade
r.visi.com
>
>
> Did you even read what Jupiter Jones said?

Sure. He says it's not a valid comparison.

I say it is.

I like things in chronological order. When I read an interview
I like to have the question before the answer. When I read a
dialog, I like the reply after that which the reply is
addressing.

--
Grant Edwards grante Yow! FUN is never having
at to say you're SUSHI!!
visi.com

Jupiter Jones [MVP]

2004-02-06, 2:36 am

Grant;
Your reference to wanting the question before the answer is not really
good either.
If you read the question immediately before the answer then it has
some validity, however most questions are a significant amount of time
before the answer and furthermore there is often a thread of answers.
To me it is easier to have the last answer right on top. I can always
scroll down to refresh my memory if so desired but rarely more than
the last response. Certainly not through a long thread of answers.

--
Jupiter Jones [MVP]
An easier way to read newsgroup messages:
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/...roups/setup.asp
http://www3.telus.net/dandemar/

"Grant Edwards" <grante@visi.com> wrote in message
news:4023adf9$0$41298$a1866201@newsreade
r.visi.com...
> Sure. He says it's not a valid comparison.
>
> I say it is.
>
> I like things in chronological order. When I read an interview
> I like to have the question before the answer. When I read a
> dialog, I like the reply after that which the reply is
> addressing.
>
> --
> Grant Edwards grante Yow! FUN is
never having
> at to say you're
SUSHI!!
> visi.com

Jim Slager

2004-02-06, 4:37 am

I think that this argument is coming down to flat vs structured. One side
wants every reply in one cronological list with the replier providing
snippets at the top of the post so others know what he's replying to. The
other side wants replies to come in threads so that the replies are bunched
by topic. Perhaps it depends on what viewer you're using. I'm using OE and
it is very easy to see the thread flow and also easy to bail out on threads
which go off topic. Which is what most people probably have done on this
one!

With the flat approach, replies on this thread are mixed in with replies to
the original topic and all other topics which may have developed which would
make for very choppy reading, it seems to me.

"Jupiter Jones [MVP]" <jones_jupiter@hotnomail.com> wrote in message
news:eCPT%23kM7DHA.1936@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
> Grant;
> Your reference to wanting the question before the answer is not really
> good either.
> If you read the question immediately before the answer then it has
> some validity, however most questions are a significant amount of time
> before the answer and furthermore there is often a thread of answers.
> To me it is easier to have the last answer right on top. I can always
> scroll down to refresh my memory if so desired but rarely more than
> the last response. Certainly not through a long thread of answers.
>
> --
> Jupiter Jones [MVP]
> An easier way to read newsgroup messages:
> http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/...roups/setup.asp
> http://www3.telus.net/dandemar/
>
>
> "Grant Edwards" <grante@visi.com> wrote in message
> news:4023adf9$0$41298$a1866201@newsreade
r.visi.com...
> never having
> SUSHI!!
>
>

Grant Edwards

2004-02-06, 5:39 am

On 2004-02-06, Jim Slager <jslager@inameU_NO_WHATcom> wrote:

> I think that this argument is coming down to flat vs
> structured. uoted (non-top-posted) style. One side wants every
> reply in one cronological list with the replier providing
> snippets at the top of the post so others know what he's
> replying to. The other side wants replies to come in threads
> so that the replies are bunched by topic.

Nope. I've been using a threaded newsreader for 10+ years, and
I still vastly prefer a properly quoted and trimmed (not
top-posted) style.

--
Grant Edwards grante Yow! Uh-oh!! I forgot
at to submit to COMPULSORY
visi.com URINALYSIS!

Johnson

2004-02-06, 7:37 am

On Fri, 6 Feb 2004 09:18:22 -0000, Big Brother <me@privacy.net> wrote:

Path: newsspool2.news.pas.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!elnk-pas-
nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!modem
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From: "Big Brother" <me@privacy.net>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc,uk.media.radio.bbc-r1,
comp.unix.solaris,comp.unix.admin,microsoft.public.security.virus
Subject: Re: BBC's awful tech/mydoom coverage
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 09:18:22 -0000
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[x-no-archive: yes [my brackets]]

Grant Edwards wrote: news:4022aef2$0$41283$a1866201@newsreade
r.visi.com

> Do you read books back to front, bottom to top? I don't. I
> like things in chronological order.

Did you even read what Jupiter Jones said?

Jupiter Jones [MVP] wrote: news:uo3djWC7DHA.2952@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl

> The book comparison is not all that valid since newsgroups are digital
> and a book is paper.
> If someone reads a book as a newsgroup, the current page when they
> leave and come back is likely open or on top.

--
We're netKKKopped down
But we get up again
You're never gonna keep us down

[Big Sister]

Rich Teer

2004-02-06, 7:37 am

On Fri, 6 Feb 2004, Jupiter Jones [MVP] wrote:

> Grant;
> Your reference to wanting the question before the answer is not really
> good either.

Sure it is.

> If you read the question immediately before the answer then it has
> some validity, however most questions are a significant amount of time
> before the answer and furthermore there is often a thread of answers.

Huh? Not sure what you mean. In fact, if anything, your statement
adds weight to the argument AGAINST top posting. By quoting the
question and then answering it immediately below, you make it easier
to revisit your post at some point in the furture and still get the
gist of what you're saying.

> To me it is easier to have the last answer right on top. I can always
> scroll down to refresh my memory if so desired but rarely more than
> the last response. Certainly not through a long thread of answers.

Your missing the point. Good posting nettiquette requires that
you trim all the material from the post you're replying to, except
for what's required for context.

And what about someone reading this thread in 6 months time?
The way you posted the message I'm replying to, it's not easily
obvious what the book analogy you two are discussing is.

--
Rich Teer, SCNA, SCSA

President,
Rite Online Inc.

Voice: +1 (250) 979-1638
URL: http://www.rite-online.net

Rich Teer

2004-02-06, 7:37 am

On Fri, 6 Feb 2004, Jim Slager wrote:

> I think that this argument is coming down to flat vs structured. One side
> wants every reply in one cronological list with the replier providing
> snippets at the top of the post so others know what he's replying to. The
> other side wants replies to come in threads so that the replies are bunched
> by topic. Perhaps it depends on what viewer you're using. I'm using OE and

Which explains your use of top posting: OE, being broken by design,
nudges people towards top posting.

> it is very easy to see the thread flow and also easy to bail out on threads
> which go off topic. Which is what most people probably have done on this
> one!

Very true! :-)

> With the flat approach, replies on this thread are mixed in with replies to
> the original topic and all other topics which may have developed which would
> make for very choppy reading, it seems to me.

Yes, that's correct.

--
Rich Teer, SCNA, SCSA

President,
Rite Online Inc.

Voice: +1 (250) 979-1638
URL: http://www.rite-online.net

leslie

2004-02-06, 8:35 am

Rich Teer (rich.teer@rite-group.com) wrote:
: On Fri, 6 Feb 2004, Jim Slager wrote:
:
: > I think that this argument is coming down to flat vs structured. One
: > side wants every reply in one cronological list with the replier providing
: > snippets at the top of the post so others know what he's replying to.
: > The other side wants replies to come in threads so that the replies are
: > bunched by topic. Perhaps it depends on what viewer you're using. I'm
: > using OE and
:
: Which explains your use of top posting: OE, being broken by design,
: nudges people towards top posting.
:

OE-QuoteFix cures the design deficiencies of Outlook Express...

http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/oe-quotefix/
OE-QuoteFix

http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/softwar...escription.html
Description

"Description

OE-QuoteFix will extend the functionality of MS Outlook Express in
numerous ways! Its main purpose is to modify message composition
windows on-the-fly to allow for correct quoting and to change the
appearance of your plain-text replies and forwards in general: move
your signature, use compressed indentation, have RFC compliant
signatures, etc.

But the second feature is equally practical: OE-QuoteFix can
instantly color quoted passages (according to the level of
indentation), fix bad quoting and generally beautify messages as
you view them in Outlook Express.

Quoting & Formatting

If you use Outlook Express as your mail/news client and make use of
plain-text messages (which are still the way to go, especially in
the usenet), you will have noticed that OE doesn't exactly feature
the most intelligent quoting algorithm; in fact, it's the silliest
one imaginable..."

[snip]

No Worries

Lastly, OE-QuoteFix will not modify any system files or Outlook
Express files... And the changes it makes to your messages can be
undone by choosing Edit->Undo in Outlook Express, should you
realize that they weren't what you wanted. And if you don't like
OE-QuoteFix at all, you can always uninstall it, but I'm sure you
won't want to... ;) "

--Jerry Leslie
Note: leslie@jrlvax.houston.rr.com is invalid for email

Floyd Davidson

2004-02-06, 8:35 am

"Jim Slager" <jslager@inameU_NO_WHATcom> wrote:
>I think that this argument is coming down to flat vs structured. One side
>wants every reply in one cronological list with the replier providing
>snippets at the top of the post so others know what he's replying to. The
>other side wants replies to come in threads so that the replies are bunched
>by topic. Perhaps it depends on what viewer you're using. I'm using OE and

With all due respect, if you were to spend some time using
decent news reading software your opinions might both have more
validity and breadth. They don't call it Outhouse Express just
because it sounds cute. OE is seriously deficient and both
leads to misunderstanding how Usenet works _and_ causes its
users to unnecessarily annoy other Usenetizens.

--
Floyd L. Davidson <http://web.newsguy.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@barrow.com

Jim Slager

2004-02-06, 8:35 am

> OE-QuoteFix cures the design deficiencies of Outlook Express...

Wow! I now see that I have been totally wrong in interpreting what Top Post
means. I thought that it meant replying directly to an earlier posting (and
starting a new thread) rather than replying to the latest reply, even if it
was not the topic I wanted to reply to. From Jerry's post I see that it
means typing your reply above where the previous message is quoted. I
suppose that people thought my replies on this subject were really dumb. I
apoligize for wasting your time.

Now I have to decide if I want to download Jerry's QuoteFix and switch away
from top posting.

"leslie" <LESLIE@JRLVAX.HOUSTON.RR.COM> wrote in message
news:6BTUb.41891$eY2.6697@fe2.texas.rr.com...
> Rich Teer (rich.teer@rite-group.com) wrote:
> : On Fri, 6 Feb 2004, Jim Slager wrote:
> :
> : > I think that this argument is coming down to flat vs structured. One
> : > side wants every reply in one cronological list with the replier
providing
> : > snippets at the top of the post so others know what he's replying to.
> : > The other side wants replies to come in threads so that the replies
are
> : > bunched by topic. Perhaps it depends on what viewer you're using.
I'm
> : > using OE and
> :
> : Which explains your use of top posting: OE, being broken by design,
> : nudges people towards top posting.
> :
>
> OE-QuoteFix cures the design deficiencies of Outlook Express...
>
> http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/oe-quotefix/
> OE-QuoteFix
>
> http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/softwar...escription.html
> Description
>
> "Description
>
> OE-QuoteFix will extend the functionality of MS Outlook Express in
> numerous ways! Its main purpose is to modify message composition
> windows on-the-fly to allow for correct quoting and to change the
> appearance of your plain-text replies and forwards in general: move
> your signature, use compressed indentation, have RFC compliant
> signatures, etc.
>
> But the second feature is equally practical: OE-QuoteFix can
> instantly color quoted passages (according to the level of
> indentation), fix bad quoting and generally beautify messages as
> you view them in Outlook Express.
>
> Quoting & Formatting
>
> If you use Outlook Express as your mail/news client and make use of
> plain-text messages (which are still the way to go, especially in
> the usenet), you will have noticed that OE doesn't exactly feature
> the most intelligent quoting algorithm; in fact, it's the silliest
> one imaginable..."
>
> [snip]
>
> No Worries
>
> Lastly, OE-QuoteFix will not modify any system files or Outlook
> Express files... And the changes it makes to your messages can be
> undone by choosing Edit->Undo in Outlook Express, should you
> realize that they weren't what you wanted. And if you don't like
> OE-QuoteFix at all, you can always uninstall it, but I'm sure you
> won't want to... ;) "
>
>
> --Jerry Leslie
> Note: leslie@jrlvax.houston.rr.com is invalid for email

Huge

2004-02-06, 9:36 am

Johnson <2343@98797.343> writes:
>On Fri, 6 Feb 2004 09:18:22 -0000, Big Brother <me@privacy.net> wrote:

[32 lines snipped]

>
>Grant Edwards wrote: news:4022aef2$0$41283$a1866201@newsreade
r.visi.com
>
>
>Did you even read what Jupiter Jones said?

Who cares? It's shit.

--
"The road to Paradise is through Intercourse."
[email me at huge [at] huge [dot] org [dot] uk]

Grant Edwards

2004-02-06, 9:36 am

On 2004-02-06, Jim Slager <jslager@inameU_NO_WHATcom> wrote:

>
> Wow! I now see that I have been totally wrong in interpreting
> what Top Post means. I thought that it meant replying
> directly to an earlier posting (and starting a new thread)
> rather than replying to the latest reply, even if it was not
> the topic I wanted to reply to.

ROTFL!

Now some of your postings make more sense.

--
Grant Edwards grante Yow! Used staples are good
at with SOY SAUCE!
visi.com

Jack Taylor

2004-02-06, 9:36 am

"Floyd Davidson" <floyd@barrow.com> wrote in message
news:878yjf3nd8.fld@barrow.com...
>
> With all due respect, if you were to spend some time using
> decent news reading software your opinions might both have more
> validity and breadth. They don't call it Outhouse Express just
> because it sounds cute. OE is seriously deficient and both
> leads to misunderstanding how Usenet works _and_ causes its
> users to unnecessarily annoy other Usenetizens.

Not if you've got half a brain and observe the conventions being used within
a particular NG before contributing!

;-))

Rich Teer

2004-02-06, 9:36 am

On Fri, 6 Feb 2004, Jim Slager wrote:

> Wow! I now see that I have been totally wrong in interpreting what Top Post
> means. I thought that it meant replying directly to an earlier posting (and
> starting a new thread) rather than replying to the latest reply, even if it
> was not the topic I wanted to reply to. From Jerry's post I see that it
> means typing your reply above where the previous message is quoted. I
> suppose that people thought my replies on this subject were really dumb. I

Not dumb at all - but I was a little confused!

> Now I have to decide if I want to download Jerry's QuoteFix and switch away
> from top posting.

You know it makes sense!

Whatever you decide, please at least cut the irrelevent stuff from
the text you're replying to (yes, I know Outhouse doesn't make that
task easy either. Get a new reader: one that doesn't propagete
viruses so readily...)

--
Rich Teer, SCNA, SCSA

President,
Rite Online Inc.

Voice: +1 (250) 979-1638
URL: http://www.rite-online.net

Jim Slager

2004-02-06, 10:34 am

> Now some of your postings make more sense.

Yes, Grant. And so do some of yours.

"Grant Edwards" <grante@visi.com> wrote in message
news:40241493$0$41289$a1866201@newsreade
r.visi.com...
> On 2004-02-06, Jim Slager <jslager@inameU_NO_WHATcom> wrote:
>
>
> ROTFL!
>
> Now some of your postings make more sense.
>
> --
> Grant Edwards grante Yow! Used staples are
good
> at with SOY SAUCE!
> visi.com

Jim Slager

2004-02-06, 10:34 am

> Get a new reader

Any suggestions?

Bill Unruh

2004-02-06, 10:34 am

Johnson <2343@98797.343> writes:

]On Fri, 6 Feb 2004 09:18:22 -0000, Big Brother <me@privacy.net> wrote:

]Path: newsspool2.news.pas.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!elnk-pas-
]nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!modem
]-1291.chimpanzee.dialup.pol.co.UK!not-for-mail
]From: "Big Brother" <me@privacy.net>
]Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc,uk.media.radio.bbc-r1,
]comp.unix.solaris,comp.unix.admin,microsoft.public.security.virus
]Subject: Re: BBC's awful tech/mydoom coverage
]Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 09:18:22 -0000
]Lines: 21
]Message-ID: <bvvvd7$10icbo$5@ID-111037.news.uni-berlin.de>
]References: <juGTb.12325$XF6.240232@typhoon.sonic.net> <#3Ewodq6DHA.1968@TK2MSFT
]NGP11.phx.gbl> <Pine.SOL.4.58.0402031508560.20308@zaphod.rite-group.com> <bvtq8v
]$af$1@news.mainstreet.net> <#BGOuSB7DHA.1596@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl> <uo3djWC7DHA.
]2952@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl> <Okx46nC7DHA.2264@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl> <4022aef2$0$4
]1283$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
]NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-1291.chimpanzee.dialup.pol.co.uk (217.134.117.11)
]X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1076068583 34156920 I 217.134.117.11 ([111037])
]X-Priority: 3
]X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
]X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158
]X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165
]Xref: news.earthlink.net comp.os.linux.misc:590007 comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc:25
]3109 uk.media.radio.bbc-r1:10073 comp.unix.solaris:443819 comp.unix.admin:128120
] microsoft.public.security.virus:43674
]X-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 03:56:25 PST (newsspool2.news.pas.earthlink.ne
]t)

][x-no-archive: yes [my brackets]]

]Grant Edwards wrote: news:4022aef2$0$41283$a1866201@newsreade
r.visi.com

]> Do you read books back to front, bottom to top? I don't. I
]> like things in chronological order.

Do you file things with the oldest on top or on the bottom? Do you read
through everything in a file first befor reading the latest letter? Or
do you read the latest letter and refer the old stuff only for
clarification of the latest letter?
In the case of books, I usually have not read the first 25 chapters
already when I read chapter 26, and I certainly do not reread all 25
prior chapters when I want to start reading chapter 26.

leslie

2004-02-06, 10:34 am

Jim Slager (jslager@inameU_NO_WHATcom) wrote:
:
: Now I have to decide if I want to download Jerry's QuoteFix and switch
: away from top posting.
:

Dominik Jain is the author of OE-QuoteFix.

I'm still using 'tin' from a VMS system configured to use
the ED editor, patterned after the VMS edt editor; more on
ED at:

http://clio.rice.edu/EDstuff/ED_Overview.txt

--Jerry Leslie
Note: leslie@jrlvax.houston.rr.com is invalid for email

Grant Edwards

2004-02-06, 12:34 pm

In article <c01944$d5t$1@string.physics.ubc.ca>, Bill Unruh wrote:

> ]Grant Edwards wrote: news:4022aef2$0$41283$a1866201@newsreade
r.visi.com
>
> ]> Do you read books back to front, bottom to top? I don't. I
> ]> like things in chronological order.
>
> Do you file things with the oldest on top or on the bottom?

Huh? What do you mean "file things?"

> Do you read through everything in a file first befor reading
> the latest letter?

I've no idea what you're talking about.

> In the case of books, I usually have not read the first 25
> chapters already when I read chapter 26, and I certainly do
> not reread all 25 prior chapters when I want to start reading
> chapter 26.

And in a posting, if you're replying to a point made in chapter
26, you don't include chapters 1 through 25 in your post. You
excerpt the point from chapter 26, and then reply to it.

--
Grant Edwards grante Yow! All this time I've
at been VIEWING a RUSSIAN
visi.com MIDGET SODOMIZE a HOUSECAT!

Rich Teer

2004-02-06, 12:34 pm

On Fri, 6 Feb 2004, Jim Slager wrote:

>
> Any suggestions?

I use Pine (which is available for DOS/Windoze), but asssuming
you would prefer a GUI application, how about Netscape? NB:
I've not used netscape for anything but browsing, so I have no
idea of how good or bad it is (except that I know it doesn't
spread viruses automatically). I expect that there are loads
of Usenet clients to chose from, so play with a few, a go with
what you like!

--
Rich Teer, SCNA, SCSA

President,
Rite Online Inc.

Voice: +1 (250) 979-1638
URL: http://www.rite-online.net

Logan Shaw

2004-02-06, 2:34 pm

In-Reply-To: <c01944$d5t$1@string.physics.ubc.ca>
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Message-ID: <MTYUb.7902$Ig5.6965@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 03:24:28 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.68.171.211
X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com
X-Trace: fe2.texas.rr.com 1076124268 66.68.171.211 (Fri, 06 Feb 2004 21:24:28 CST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 21:24:28 CST
Organization: Road Runner High Speed Online http://www.rr.com
Xref: intern1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com comp.os.linux.misc:554940 comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc:264452 uk.media.radio.bbc-r1:17497 comp.unix.solaris:440970 comp.unix.admin:115888

Bill Unruh wrote:
> ]Grant Edwards wrote: news:4022aef2$0$41283$a1866201@newsreade
r.visi.com
>
> ]> Do you read books back to front, bottom to top? I don't. I
> ]> like things in chronological order.
>
> Do you file things with the oldest on top or on the bottom? Do you read
> through everything in a file first befor reading the latest letter? Or
> do you read the latest letter and refer the old stuff only for
> clarification of the latest letter?

When you put a new letter in a file, do you first take out everything
in the file, photocopy it, and then staple the huge pile of photocopies
to the letter, and then put that stack into the file folder -- for
context?

Because that is the equivalent of what you are doing when you quote
absolutely everything and don't trim anything.

By the way, notice how the text I have typed is actually longer than
all of the text that I've included? That is the point here.

- Logan

Grant Edwards

2004-02-06, 2:34 pm

In article <MTYUb.7902$Ig5.6965@fe2.texas.rr.com>, Logan Shaw wrote:
> Bill Unruh wrote:

>
> When you put a new letter in a file, do you first take out
> everything in the file, photocopy it, and then staple the huge
> pile of photocopies to the letter, and then put that stack
> into the file folder -- for context?

Doh! When he asked about reading through everything in a file,
I assumed he meant a file in a filesystem on a computer. It
just dawned on me that he was talking about physically filing
ink-on-paper letters in a folder or drawer or something! I
don't think I've ever actually done that.

I suppose laywers and whatnot still do that sort of thing, but
I don't think I ever have.

--
Grant Edwards grante Yow! Yow! I forgot my
at PAIL!!
visi.com

John Thompson

2004-02-07, 7:34 am

["Followup-To:" header set to comp.os.linux.misc.]

On 2004-02-06, Jack Taylor <Jack@Carney.co.uk> wrote:
>
> "Floyd Davidson" <floyd@barrow.com> wrote in message
> news:878yjf3nd8.fld@barrow.com...
[color=blue]
> Not if you've got half a brain and observe the conventions being used within
> a particular NG before contributing!

A good point, but unless you hack OE using eg "OE-Quotefix" or analogous
methods, most users will still find it awkward to compose their responses
properly in a non-top-posting newsgroup.

--

-John (JohnThompson@new.rr.com)

John Thompson

2004-02-07, 7:34 am

["Followup-To:" header set to comp.os.linux.misc.]

On 2004-02-06, Jim Slager <jslager@inameU_NO_WHATcom> wrote:
[color=blue]
> Wow! I now see that I have been totally wrong in interpreting what Top Post
> means. I thought that it meant replying directly to an earlier posting (and
> starting a new thread) rather than replying to the latest reply, even if it
> was not the topic I wanted to reply to. From Jerry's post I see that it
> means typing your reply above where the previous message is quoted. I
> suppose that people thought my replies on this subject were really dumb. I
> apoligize for wasting your time.
>
> Now I have to decide if I want to download Jerry's QuoteFix and switch away
> from top posting.

The answer to that question is "yes, you do."

But don't forget to trim the irrelevant material before you post.

--

-John (JohnThompson@new.rr.com)

John Thompson

2004-02-07, 7:34 am

["Followup-To:" header set to comp.os.linux.misc.]

On 2004-02-06, Jim Slager <jslager@inameU_NO_WHATcom> wrote:

>
> Any suggestions?

If you want a GUI reader that works in Windows, try Thunderbird:

http://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla....d-0.4-win32.zip

--

-John (JohnThompson@new.rr.com)

John Winters

2004-02-07, 11:33 pm

In article <Okx46nC7DHA.2264@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl>,
Jim Slager <jslager@inameU_NO_WHATcom> wrote:
>Jupiter, thanks for the post. It seems to me that top posting makes sense
>if you're not replying to what the previous poster said but, rather,
>starting a new approach to the original post.

No, for goodness sake - of course it doesn't.

If you are not replying to what the previous poster said then you don't
need to quote anything at all. If you do need to quote something to
give context to your additions then put your comments immediately after
the relevant bit. It's as simple as that.

>But, I guess it is a matter of personal taste.

No, it isn't. There are three ways of following up to a Usenet post
(in order from worst to best).

1) Quote the entirety of the previous message and tag your comments on
the end. Doesn't really exist but is cited by the exponents of
method 2 (below) to try to prove that their way isn't the worst
possible way of doing it.

2) Quote the entirety of the previous message and put your comments
at the beginning - aka "Top posting". Wastes a phenomenal amount
of bandwidth and obscures the flow of conversation. Also obscures
the point of what the poster is trying to say because you can't
tell what (if anything) their comments relate to.

3) The correct way - quote the minimum necessary to give context to
your comments and pair off each comment with the bit of quoted
text to which it relates. Easy to read. Saves bandwidth. Keeps
the flow of conversation going.

Please try to learn.

John
--
Wallingford, Oxfordshire, England
We had a woodhenge here once but it rotted.

Ed Murphy

2004-02-08, 3:34 am

On Fri, 06 Feb 2004 15:34:37 -0800, Jim Slager wrote:

>
> Any suggestions?

For Windows: Eudora and Free Agent. Or just Agent, if you're willing
to spend $30 for it. Or the Thunderbird suite, maybe; haven't tried 'em.

For Linux: (Evolution or Balsa) and (Pan or KNode). Or command-line
programs, but I haven't seriously used any for years. (I use pine to
occasionally skim through root's mailbox.)

Ed Murphy

2004-02-08, 4:35 am

On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 22:57:23 +0000, John Winters wrote:

> 1) Quote the entirety of the previous message and tag your comments on
> the end. Doesn't really exist but is cited by the exponents of
> method 2 (below) to try to prove that their way isn't the worst
> possible way of doing it.

Oh yes it *does* exist! I've seen it plenty of times, and it's
quite annoying. (My newsreader highlights quoted material in
different colors, so at least it's usually pretty quick to scroll
down until I see black-for-unquoted-text.)

> 3) The correct way - quote the minimum necessary to give context to
> your comments and pair off each comment with the bit of quoted
> text to which it relates. Easy to read. Saves bandwidth. Keeps
> the flow of conversation going.

Exactly.

Floyd Davidson

2004-02-08, 4:35 am

Ed Murphy <emurphy42@socal.rr.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 06 Feb 2004 15:34:37 -0800, Jim Slager wrote:
>
>
>For Windows: Eudora and Free Agent. Or just Agent, if you're willing
>to spend $30 for it. Or the Thunderbird suite, maybe; haven't tried 'em.
>
>For Linux: (Evolution or Balsa) and (Pan or KNode). Or command-line
>programs, but I haven't seriously used any for years. (I use pine to
>occasionally skim through root's mailbox.)

For Linux, fire up Emacs or XEmacs with Gnus. For either email
or Usenet, it's pretty much the cream of the crop.

Of course, if you don't grok Emacs, the learning curve is huge.

--
Floyd L. Davidson <http://web.newsguy.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@barrow.com

Hognoxious

2004-02-13, 1:44 am

"Big Brother" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:bvvvd7$10icbo$5@ID-111037.news.uni-berlin.de...
> x-no-archive: yes
> Grant Edwards wrote: news:4022aef2$0$41283$a1866201@newsreade
r.visi.com
>
>
> Did you even read what Jupiter Jones said?
>
> Jupiter Jones [MVP] wrote: news:uo3djWC7DHA.2952@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl

Yes, and it's crap.

MVP. I am like *so* impressed.

R. F. Burns

2004-02-13, 1:34 pm

["Followup-To:" header set to comp.unix.admin.]
On 2004-02-13, Hognoxious <hognoxious_kosher@!not!so!hotmail.com> wrote:
> "Big Brother" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
> news:bvvvd7$10icbo$5@ID-111037.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> Yes, and it's crap.
>
> MVP. I am like *so* impressed.

Quite a few silly fools think those three silly letters are something to
be proud of.

Paul Floyd

2004-02-14, 10:34 am

On 14 Feb 2004 02:17:33 GMT, R. F. Burns <me@privacy.net> wrote:
> ["Followup-To:" header set to comp.unix.admin.]
> On 2004-02-13, Hognoxious <hognoxious_kosher@!not!so!hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Quite a few silly fools think those three silly letters are something to
> be proud of.

Must be good - I'd never even heard of it till I read this thread. I
would have guessed that the M stood for Microsoft. Still it does seem to
be a bit like the IT equivalent of a degree in Media Studies.

A bientot
Paul
--
Paul Floyd http://paulf.free.fr (for what it's worth)
Surgery: ennobled Gerald.

R. F. Burns

2004-02-14, 12:33 pm

And the Lord did grin, and the people did feast upon the lambs,
and sloths, and carp, and anchovies, and orangutans, and breakfast cereals,
and fruit bats, and Paul Floyd <root@127.0.0.1> did say:
> On 14 Feb 2004 02:17:33 GMT, R. F. Burns <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>
> Must be good - I'd never even heard of it till I read this thread. I
> would have guessed that the M stood for Microsoft. Still it does seem to
> be a bit like the IT equivalent of a degree in Media Studies.
>
> A bientot
> Paul

The difference being that an MVP certification is nowhere near degree
level.

Grant Edwards

2004-02-15, 4:33 pm

In article <c0k0fr$17neab$2@ID-136016.news.uni-berlin.de>, R. F. Burns wrote:

>
> Quite a few silly fools think those three silly letters are
> something to be proud of.

OK, I'll bite: What's "MVP" stand for? Outside of sports, I've
never heard of it before.

--
Grant Edwards grante Yow! Yes, Private
at DOBERMAN!!
visi.com

mathew@spamtrap-spiesareus.yi.org

2004-02-15, 7:33 pm

On 2004-02-16, Grant Edwards <grante@visi.com> wrote:
> In article <c0k0fr$17neab$2@ID-136016.news.uni-berlin.de>, R. F. Burns wrote:
>
>
> OK, I'll bite: What's "MVP" stand for? Outside of sports, I've
> never heard of it before.

A silly Microsoft certification that ain't worth the paper it's printed
on. "Microsoft Valued Professional".

--
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GIT d- s: a--- C+++ UL++++ UB+++ P+ L++ W+ N++
w--- PGP++ t+ 5++ X++ tv b DI+ D++
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

Christopher Mattern

2004-02-16, 12:33 am

mathew@spamtrap-spiesareus.yi.org wrote:

>
> A silly Microsoft certification that ain't worth the paper it's printed
> on. "Microsoft Valued Professional".
>
Well, you can't say it's not truth in advertising: MVP = "a professional
with as much value as a piece of Microsoft software"...

Chris Mattern

mathew@spamtrap-spiesareus.yi.org

2004-02-16, 3:33 pm

On 2004-02-16, Christopher Mattern <matternc@comcast.net> wrote:
> mathew@spamtrap-spiesareus.yi.org wrote:
>
> Well, you can't say it's not truth in advertising: MVP = "a professional
> with as much value as a piece of Microsoft software"...
>
> Chris Mattern

In other words, expensive, but worthless.

--
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GIT d- s: a--- C+++ UL++++ UB+++ P+ L++ W+ N++
w--- PGP++ t+ 5++ X++ tv b DI+ D++
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

52-Post Catch-up

2004-02-21, 7:34 am

x-no-archive: yes
Johnson wrote: news:LNSUb.16956$uM2.9056@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net

> [x-no-archive: yes [my brackets]]

--- <quote headers> ---

Newsgroups:
comp.os.linux.misc,comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc,uk.media.radio.bbc-r1,comp.unix.so
laris,comp.unix.admin,microsoft.public.security.virus
From: Johnson <2343@98797.343>
Subject: Re: BBC's awful tech/mydoom coverage
References: <juGTb.12325$XF6.240232@typhoon.sonic.net>
<#3Ewodq6DHA.1968@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl>
<Pine.SOL.4.58.0402031508560.20308@zaphod.rite-group.com>
<bvtq8v$af$1@news.mainstreet.net> <#BGOuSB7DHA.1596@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl>
<uo3djWC7DHA.2952@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl> <Okx46nC7DHA.2264@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl>
<4022aef2$0$41283$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
<bvvvd7$10icbo$5@ID-111037.news.uni-berlin.de>
Lines: 56
Message-ID: <LNSUb.16956$uM2.9056@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 20:28:27 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.187.193.21
X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net
X-Trace: newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net 1076099307 63.187.193.21 (Fri, 06 Feb
2004 12:28:27 PST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 12:28:27 PST
Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net

--- </quote headers> ---

52-Post Catch-up

2004-02-21, 7:34 am

x-no-archive: yes
Grant Edwards wrote: news:40243cd3$0$41285$a1866201@newsreade
r.visi.com

> In article <c01944$d5t$1@string.physics.ubc.ca>, Bill Unruh wrote:
>
>
> And in a posting, if you're replying to a point made in chapter
> 26, you don't include chapters 1 through 25 in your post. You
> excerpt the point from chapter 26, and then reply to it.

Of course, but excessive quoting and top-posting are not the same.

--
If you filter crossposts you miss all the best articles! Don't block crossposts!

52-Post Catch-up

2004-02-21, 7:34 am

x-no-archive: yes
Alan Connor wrote: news:uRDUb.15933$uM2.7027@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net

> On 6 Feb 2004 02:46:24 GMT, Dave Hinz <davehinz@spamcop.net> wrote:
>
>
> If only there was a filter for egotistical drivel like this....

As far as I'm concerned Dave Hinz can go without.
I'll crosspost every article likely to interest him to 4 or more newsgroups.

--
*All* FAQs of unmoderated alt.* and free.* newsgroups are unofficial.

Bill Vermillion

2004-02-22, 1:33 pm

In article <Pine.SOL.4.58.0402051158220.22955@zaphod.rite-group.com>,
Rich Teer <rich.teer@rite-group.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 5 Feb 2004, Jim Slager wrote:

[color=blue]
>It messes up the flow of the conversation. Consider this:
>
> A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
> Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
> A: Top-posting.
> Q: What's the most annoying thing on Usenet and in email?

>Dunno about you, but I read top down, not bottom up...

It's a good thing we don't read right to left or your post
would look like this.

:siht redisnoC .noitasrevnoc eht fo wolf eht pu sessem tI>
>
..txet daer yllamron elpoep hcihw ni redro eht pu sessem ti esuaceB :A >
?gniht dab a hcus gnitsop-pot si yhW :Q >
..gnitsop-poT :A >
?liame ni dna tenesU no gniht gniyonna tsom eht s'tahW :Q >

{Got to love all those strange little utilites in BSD! :-)}

Bill

--
Bill Vermillion - bv @ wjv . com

ADSLguy

2004-03-04, 1:34 am

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Dave Hinz wrote: news:bvpjou$umf3g$6@ID-134476.news.uni-berlin.de

> On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 00:32:00 GMT, Alan Connor <zzzzzz@xxx.yyy> wrote:
>
> Let's see - Rich Teer, long time and valued contributer to comp.unix.admin.
> You, well, who knows.

He's subscribed to one of the other crossposted newsgroups, so of course he
wouldn't be a regular poster to comp.unix.admin.

>
> Law? Yeah, it's more than 4 lines, but his quality posts have historically
> distracted me from noticing that his sigfile is longer than suggested.

Do you think Alan Connor, Neil Barker, Craig Oldfield or John Kaye care whether
posts are quality? They just want to criticize .sigs >4 lines.

>
> And yet, Rich provides signal, while you provide...what's that word again?
> Oh yeah, "noise".

Alan Hicks

2004-03-04, 9:36 am

In comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc, ADSLguy dared to utter,
> Do you think Alan Connor, Neil Barker, Craig Oldfield or John Kaye care whether
> posts are quality? They just want to criticize .sigs >4 lines.

I can't speak for the rest, but Alan Conner's been a pretty constant
troll over in alt.os.linux.slackware for some time now. He never offers
anything worthwhile, and only spouts out drivel. Killfile him and move
on with your life. Nothing here to see.

--
It is better to hear the rebuke of the wise,
Than for a man to hear the song of fools.
Ecclesiastes 7:5