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New Internet Forum for Unix Support
|
|
| admin@unixtalk.info 2006-04-27, 7:56 am |
| the site just started, visit and post your issues
www.unixtalk.info
| |
| Dave Hinz 2006-04-27, 7:56 am |
| On 11 Apr 2006 16:29:17 -0700, admin@unixtalk.info <admin@unixtalk.info> wrote:
> the site just started, visit and post your issues
Can you give me a compelling reason why I'd post on a website that may
go *whiff* at any moment, when I could post here and know I can always
find it?
| |
| Michael Heiming 2006-04-27, 7:56 am |
| In comp.unix.admin Dave Hinz <DaveHinz@spamcop.net>:
> On 11 Apr 2006 16:29:17 -0700, admin@unixtalk.info <admin@unixtalk.info> wrote:
[vbcol=seagreen]
> Can you give me a compelling reason why I'd post on a website that may
> go *whiff* at any moment, when I could post here and know I can always
> find it?
Seems easy enough:
The OP:
- Uses G/2 from doze
- Has probably never heard about usenet
- Doesn't care about it anyway
- Is IT-professional
--
Michael Heiming (X-PGP-Sig > GPG-Key ID: EDD27B94)
mail: echo zvpunry@urvzvat.qr | PERL -pe 'y/a-z/n-za-m/'
#bofh excuse 300: Digital Manipulator exceeding velocity
parameters
| |
| admin@unixtalk.info 2006-04-27, 7:56 am |
| that is true, we are it professionals, and we do deal with unix issues
every day.
we are unix admin support, team that is trying to provide a free site
for people to get answers to there issues, and yes i do know about
other news groups and forums.
i'm not trying to get you to pay for any of the service...it's free and
you'll get an answer from someone who deals with unix problems every
day,
Michael Heiming wrote:
> In comp.unix.admin Dave Hinz <DaveHinz@spamcop.net>:
>
>
> Seems easy enough:
>
> The OP:
> - Uses G/2 from doze
> - Has probably never heard about usenet
> - Doesn't care about it anyway
> - Is IT-professional
>
> --
> Michael Heiming (X-PGP-Sig > GPG-Key ID: EDD27B94)
> mail: echo zvpunry@urvzvat.qr | PERL -pe 'y/a-z/n-za-m/'
> #bofh excuse 300: Digital Manipulator exceeding velocity
> parameters
| |
| Dave Hinz 2006-04-27, 7:56 am |
| On 12 Apr 2006 05:56:41 -0700, admin@unixtalk.info <admin@unixtalk.info> wrote:
> that is true, we are it professionals, and we do deal with unix issues
> every day.
Odd that your domain doesn't seem to resolve.
> we are unix admin support, team that is trying to provide a free site
> for people to get answers to there issues, and yes i do know about
> other news groups and forums.
And what does your forum offer me that this one does not? By the way,
your shift key seems not to work. In a field where precision matters,
that sort of thing is hard not to notice.
> i'm not trying to get you to pay for any of the service...it's free and
> you'll get an answer from someone who deals with unix problems every
> day,
What does that forum offer that this one does not? It sounds like you
have a "solution" in search of a problem.
Next we'll take up "Top-posting: why it's bad".
| |
| Dave (from the UK) 2006-04-27, 7:56 am |
| admin@unixtalk.info wrote:
> that is true, we are it professionals, and we do deal with unix issues
> every day.
> we are unix admin support, team that is trying to provide a free site
> for people to get answers to there issues, and yes i do know about
> other news groups and forums.
> i'm not trying to get you to pay for any of the service...it's free and
> you'll get an answer from someone who deals with unix problems every
> day,
But what does it offer than a newsgroup does not?
Most of these sites start free, then you get ads all over the place. I suspect
if there were as many posts/day as on the UNIX newsgroups you would need to find
a way of financing it, or would be tempted by offers of finance that would mean
ads on the pages.
Sites like
http://www.experts-exchange.com/
make me laugh. Sure I am going to register on a secure server to read the posts
they have captured from elsewhere and added some ads to to enhance them. No thanks.
Then there is 2cpu.com
http://www.2cpu.com/
which many say is good, but the ads on that piss me off so much I can hardly
bring myself to use it. I've emailed them to say the ads are too much, but that
seems to have gone to /dev/null.
Tying "unix forum" into Google and I get 44,700,000 hits. There are loads of
UNIX forums out there.
For me at least, newsgroups beat any of these forums. So like Dave Hinz, I'll
be staying on the newsgroups for the forseable future.
However, if you have a *compelling* argument for why we should use your forum,
please let me know. I'm not too stubborn to change if there is a better
alternative, but I am just not convinced there is at this point.
-----
Dave K MCSE.
MCSE = Minefield Consultant and Solitaire Expert.
Please note my email address changes periodically to avoid spam.
It is always of the form: month-year@domain. Hitting reply will work
for a couple of months only. Later set it manually.
| |
| admin@unixtalk.info 2006-04-27, 7:56 am |
|
Dave Hinz wrote:
> On 12 Apr 2006 05:56:41 -0700, admin@unixtalk.info <admin@unixtalk.info> wrote:
>
> What does that forum offer that this one does not? It sounds like you
> have a "solution" in search of a problem.
>
> Next we'll take up "Top-posting: why it's bad".
I'm offering you a verity, some people will post on the same forum
over and over and get opinion and answers from the same group. Some
would like to get different opinions, and get answers from all
different groups..
It seems that you are getting insulted that a new forum was opened?
You don't have to go and post anything on it, but some people might
want to do so.
If it is offending you then I apologies, that was not the intent of
this message.
I'm just offering an alternative, and trying to get a site started,
if you want to post on it you are more then welcome to do so, if not
you don't have to.
You keeping asking me what do I have to offer you, the only offer is an
answer, I'm not selling you the idea, I'm just putting a post.
That's all.
| |
| Dave Hinz 2006-04-27, 7:56 am |
| On 12 Apr 2006 06:54:15 -0700, admin@unixtalk.info <admin@unixtalk.info> wrote:
>
> Dave Hinz wrote:
>
> I'm offering you a verity, some people will post on the same forum
> over and over and get opinion and answers from the same group.
What's a verity?
We have what you describe here, now, in a format that can be accessed
from anywhere.
> Some
> would like to get different opinions, and get answers from all
> different groups..
> It seems that you are getting insulted that a new forum was opened?
No, I have asked several times what you offer that this group does not.
I mean, if you have something that adds value, by all means, tell us
what it is. If not, it seems like you're going to be yet another in a
long chain of site owners who are enthused about it to start, then they
either get bored with it and it goes away, or they get greedy and start
charging.
I don't see the advantage. Tell me what the advantage is.
> You don't have to go and post anything on it, but some people might
> want to do so.
> If it is offending you then I apologies, that was not the intent of
> this message.
> I'm just offering an alternative, and trying to get a site started,
> if you want to post on it you are more then welcome to do so, if not
> you don't have to.
It's not just for _me_ that I'm asking what the point is, it's so others
can see your response and, quite frankly, judge your intent by your
responses.
> You keeping asking me what do I have to offer you, the only offer is an
> answer, I'm not selling you the idea, I'm just putting a post.
> That's all.
Good luck.
| |
|
| Begin <1144846601.398451.101540@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>
On 2006-04-12, admin@unixtalk.info <admin@unixtalk.info> wrote:
> that is true, we are it professionals, and we do deal with unix issues
> every day.
Good to know. From your posts I'd never have gathered.
You still haven't given a compelling reason why your brand spanking
shiny new site would be more desirable to use than, say, USENET, except
by implying that it's just the thing for people who somehow will not or
can not write a proper[1] and readable posting.
[1] In netiquette context. See also RFC1855.
--
j p d (at) d s b (dot) t u d e l f t (dot) n l .
This message was originally posted on Usenet in plain text.
Any other representation, additions, or changes do not have my
consent and may be a violation of international copyright law.
| |
| Doug Freyburger 2006-04-27, 7:56 am |
| Dave (from the UK) wrote:
> admin@unixtalk.info wrote:
>
Go easy on the professional bit. You top-posted, failed to quote
context, typed in all lower case, never answered the questions
put to you.
[vbcol=seagreen]
Which is a nice thing to do *if* you can generate enough traffic
to it to generate some amount of brand name recognition.
Remember, since UseNet posts have been archived for going
on 3 decades you'll need to have some sort of funding to be
able to archive forever.
[vbcol=seagreen]
See my quip on the professional bit.
[vbcol=seagreen]
Okay, but on this newsgroup you'll get answers from folks
with decades of experience doing so, and there's the fact
that the number of lurkers is large.
[vbcol=seagreen]
> But what does it offer than a newsgroup does not?
I'll offer one - moderation. Web fora are trivially moderated.
Since CUA is not flooded with trolls it's a point without
value in this particular instance. Funny how folks don't
want to flood a group whose members run their machines ...
> Most of these sites start free, then you get ads all over the place. I suspect
> if there were as many posts/day as on the UNIX newsgroups you would need to find
> a way of financing it, or would be tempted by offers of finance that would mean
> ads on the pages.
Given that I post through Google like the OP, this is not
a point that bothers me. As long as none of the ads are
ever pop-ups and none ever contain animation or audio,
it won't bother me. Sometimes I ignore banner ads or
whatever the ones at the edge of the view are currently
called, sometimes I glance at them, but they don't
happen to bother my. YMMV and I'm aware my opinion
is not in the majority on this.
> Tying "unix forum" into Google and I get 44,700,000 hits. There are loads of
> UNIX forums out there.
So the question becomes how its traffic beats the others,
and demonstrating professionalism helps with that.
> For me at least, newsgroups beat any of these forums. So like Dave Hinz, I'll
> be staying on the newsgroups for the forseable future.
>
> However, if you have a *compelling* argument for why we should use your forum,
> please let me know. I'm not too stubborn to change if there is a better
> alternative, but I am just not convinced there is at this point.
And so this thread should be viewed as a teaching tool -
If you wanted to form a forum that managed to beat
comp.unix.admin, just how would you go about it?
The annual SAGE LISA conference did so by going the in-person
route, but it's annual cycle is conducive to long term planning,
process improvement, best practices and such. That means it
managed to acheive its value by *not* competing with
comp.unix.admin.
The HPUX web site contains user forums that seem to give
the best support available in that vendor-specific realm. No
newsgroup has the HPUX experts that HP formums have.
One advantage they have is they are manufacturer driven.
Another is they have full time staff with access to the OS
source code. That means they managed to acheive its
value by having unlimited funding when compared to the
completely unfunded comp.unix.admin.
There are consulting companies that maintain internal
knowledgebases that beat comp.unix.admin. Every single
company with such an internal knowledgebase restricts
its access to their own consultants because the additional
value of knowledgebase access gives their employees a
competitive edge. The companies with the best ones give
public praise to the top contributors, include contributions to
the internal knowledge base into bonus calculations. So
again like the HP forums the way to beat comp.unix.admin
is with money, experience in the real world, full time staff.
Is it a good idea to build a forum? Yes. The experience
doing the web work is valuable in and of itself. Can there be
a reasonable expectation that it can compete with CUA?
Not really. If the viewpoint is that the regulars on CUA
dominate, that same trend will happen on the new forum.
Only the names will change. And that too is an experience
that has such value that it's worth doing just for that
experience.
| |
| Dave Hinz 2006-04-27, 7:56 am |
| On 12 Apr 2006 08:06:17 -0700, admin@unixtalk.info <admin@unixtalk.info> wrote:
>
> wow, ..I'm just getting killed here.
No, we're trying to _help_ you understand. And you are still
top-posting. And unixtalk.info _still_ doesn't resolve.
> I'm not trying to beat comp.unix.admin, I'm just trying to offer
> you other solutions
To what problems?
| |
|
|
| admin@unixtalk.info 2006-04-27, 7:56 am |
|
wow, ..I'm just getting killed here.
it's just a post ...for people to take a look that's all, i didn't know
that i would get such a response.
I'm not trying to beat comp.unix.admin, I'm just trying to offer
you other solutions
And for how will I finance it, there is a million and one solution, but
it does not involve charging you for the site
And as for Doug's post I like it especially this part, as it's very
relevent
" The HPUX web site contains user forums that seem to give
the best support available in that vendor-specific realm. No
newsgroup has the HPUX experts that HP formums have.
One advantage they have is they are manufacturer driven.
Another is they have full time staff with access to the OS
source code. That means they managed to acheive its
value by having unlimited funding when compared to the
completely unfunded comp.unix.admin.
There are consulting companies that maintain internal
knowledgebases that beat comp.unix.admin. Every single
company with such an internal knowledgebase restricts
its access to their own consultants because the additional
value of knowledgebase access gives their employees a
competitive edge. The companies with the best ones give
public praise to the top contributors, include contributions to
the internal knowledge base into bonus calculations. So
again like the HP forums the way to beat comp.unix.admin
is with money, experience in the real world, full time staff.
"
| |
| Michael Heiming 2006-04-27, 7:56 am |
| In comp.unix.admin Dave Hinz <DaveHinz@spamcop.net>:
> On 12 Apr 2006 08:06:17 -0700, admin@unixtalk.info <admin@unixtalk.info> wrote:
[vbcol=seagreen]
> No, we're trying to _help_ you understand. And you are still
> top-posting. And unixtalk.info _still_ doesn't resolve.
[vbcol=seagreen]
> To what problems?
Thx to you, Doug and others for all the replies, much fun
reading. ;-))
--
Michael Heiming (X-PGP-Sig > GPG-Key ID: EDD27B94)
mail: echo zvpunry@urvzvat.qr | PERL -pe 'y/a-z/n-za-m/'
#bofh excuse 414: tachyon emissions overloading the system
| |
| Michael Vilain 2006-04-27, 7:56 am |
| In article <4a4hklFremvjU2@individual.net>,
jpd <read_the_sig@do.not.spam.it.invalid> wrote:
> Begin <1144846601.398451.101540@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>
> On 2006-04-12, admin@unixtalk.info <admin@unixtalk.info> wrote:
>
> Good to know. From your posts I'd never have gathered.
>
> You still haven't given a compelling reason why your brand spanking
> shiny new site would be more desirable to use than, say, USENET, except
> by implying that it's just the thing for people who somehow will not or
> can not write a proper[1] and readable posting.
>
>
> [1] In netiquette context. See also RFC1855.
This thread really illustrates the concept "resistance to change" from
what's known and works. The old saying "If it ain't broke, don't fix
it." fits in here somewhere also.
I'm the webmaster for a site of non-technical people running a
non-profit. Some of us are part of a private majordomo email forum
that's been around since 1997. I was asked to setup something similar
for the non-profit and it's 800 members.
Our ISP actively discouraged me from doing so. They _hate_ email lists
as so many people view stuff from the senders as spam. So I setup an
on-line forum like the one the OP created. It got very little traffic
despite being mentioned numerous times in the newsletters and at our big
annual meeting/symposium gathering in October.
The OP was trying to create traffic for his site, albeit in a
spamvertizing kinda way. I'm trying to increase traffic to our forums,
but a number of people keep asking "why can't you just use email
instead?" Yet our ISP really doesn't want us doing this. Professional
list servers cost 3x/month than our basic ISP account, so we're stuck
with web forums for now.
I don't think a news server and private newsgroup are an option for this
people either. They have enough trouble with computers, email, and a
browser.
--
DeeDee, don't press that button! DeeDee! NO! Dee...
| |
|
| Begin <vilain-FF6CE9.12434912042006@comcast.dca.giganews.com>
On 2006-04-12, Michael Vilain <vilain@spamcop.net> wrote:
> Our ISP actively discouraged me from doing so. They _hate_ email lists
> as so many people view stuff from the senders as spam.
Not only that, but many people are too fscking stupid to a) subscribe,
b) remember they are subscribed, c) keep the confirmation mail that
also describes how to unsubscribe, d) refrain from foot in mouth type
actions like shouting Tuttle style to unsubscribe on the list, write
abuse reports on subscribed lists, or actually calling the feds over it,
g) all of the above.
I don't see how it can be too bloody hard but apparently it is. An
interesting experiment in this area was clueless-l, but it seems to have
stopped existing some time ago.
[snip]
> I don't think a news server and private newsgroup are an option for
> this people either. They have enough trouble with computers, email,
> and a browser.
You could use a web front-end to a private news server[1]. It would at
least be much less in the way of reinventing USENET, badly.
[1] And for that purpose, it doesn't even conflict with my .sig. :-)
--
j p d (at) d s b (dot) t u d e l f t (dot) n l .
This message was originally posted on Usenet in plain text.
Any other representation, additions, or changes do not have my
consent and may be a violation of international copyright law.
| |
| Doug Freyburger 2006-04-27, 7:56 am |
| Michael Vilain wrote:
>
> This thread really illustrates the concept "resistance to change" from
> what's known and works. The old saying "If it ain't broke, don't fix
> it." fits in here somewhere also.
Interesting viewpoint.
To me it was about software reuse - either reinvent the wheel
or link to the existing concept your choice. Those who do not
link to the software library are doomed to reimplement it again
and again in slightly worse and subtly different ways each
time. Modules were intended to resolve that and UseNet is
just another module.
It was also about market forces and learning. Someone who
hopes to deliver enough value in their new site better show
enough skill to suggest it's worth a try. Skill maps across
some realms so typing in all lower case, failure to quote parts,
failure to explain the site's unique value don't demonstrate
skill. Rather like my quick typing and occasional missed or
duplicated words indicate that I need to double check my
tasks as I execute them.
A site with no known uniqueness, with hundreds or preexisting
competitors, with unskilled advertising, how likely is it to hold
value? To me that's a challenge to the authors to show
distinctness, skill and value. But even without any of those
it remains a valid skill building exercise to build such a forum.
A task for its own sake as well as a chance to be shown what
others expect.
To me it's not "if it ain't broke don't fix it". To me it's "if it's
not
better it's not a fix". And to some extent "if the cover is poorly
done I'm not going to read the book to judge its content".
| |
| Michael Heiming 2006-04-27, 7:56 am |
| In comp.unix.admin Doug Freyburger <dfreybur@yahoo.com>:
> Michael Vilain wrote:
[vbcol=seagreen]
> Interesting viewpoint.
> To me it was about software reuse - either reinvent the wheel
> or link to the existing concept your choice. Those who do not
To me http forum look like those who dunno about mailing lists
and usenet are doomed to reinvent things with poor outcome.
Personally I'm not a real fan of all those forums, they are
missing:
- Use of my favorite editor
- Missing spell checking
- No or pretty lame kill filling capability
- No possibility to just pipe an article through whatever I like
- post bone articles
- content if any can be easily lost
- more difficult to search
- dozens more
In short, a sad joke compared to leafnode + tin and the use of
groups.google for what it was intended (search able archive).
[ strong points ]
--
Michael Heiming (X-PGP-Sig > GPG-Key ID: EDD27B94)
mail: echo zvpunry@urvzvat.qr | PERL -pe 'y/a-z/n-za-m/'
#bofh excuse 131: telnet: Unable to connect to remote host:
Connection refused
| |
| Andrew 2006-04-27, 7:56 am |
| Dave (from the UK) wrote:
[..]
>
> Sites like
>
> http://www.experts-exchange.com/
>
> make me laugh. Sure I am going to register on a secure server to read
> the posts they have captured from elsewhere and added some ads to to
> enhance them. No thanks.
Actually, that's not what they do. First of all, I am no fan of web fora
such as the OP is advertising, and I prefer USENET for technical
discussion. But, I've found Experts-Exchange useful enough to me in my
daily work to sign up. And to be fair, they don't "capture" posts from
elsewhere and recycle them. At least, I haven't seen that. On two or
three occasions I've posted questions regarding difficult technical
issues I was fighting with and received intelligent and helpful
responses. Would I have received similar responses if I had posted to
USENET instead? Probably. I'm not arguing that point; I'm merely
suggesting that you have mis-characterized the nature of their site.
DISCLAIMER: I have no financial interest in or arrangement with
Experts-Exchange other than as an end-user/member.
Regards,
andrew@lod.com
--
NewsGuy.Com 30Gb $9.95 Carry Forward and On Demand Bandwidth
| |
| Barry Margolin 2006-04-27, 7:56 am |
| In article <443d0476@212.67.96.135>,
"Dave (from the UK)"
<see-my-signature@southminster-branch-line.org.uk> wrote:
> But what does it offer than a newsgroup does not?
What does any web forum offer that a newsgroup doesn't? You could just
as well ask why Slashdot exists, when all of its material could easily
be in newsgroups. Yet there are thousands of web forums, many of which
are on the same topics as existing Usenet newsgroups.
What they offer is a different user community -- believe it or not,
there are thousands of competent computer professionals who never use
Usenet.
--
Barry Margolin, barmar@alum.mit.edu
Arlington, MA
*** PLEASE post questions in newsgroups, not directly to me ***
*** PLEASE don't copy me on replies, I'll read them in the group ***
| |
| Barry Margolin 2006-04-27, 7:56 am |
| In article <tdb0h3-bin.ln1@news.heiming.de>,
Michael Heiming <michael+USENET@www.heiming.de> wrote:
> In comp.unix.admin Doug Freyburger <dfreybur@yahoo.com>:
>
>
>
> To me http forum look like those who dunno about mailing lists
> and usenet are doomed to reinvent things with poor outcome.
Since there are now a handful of standard forum implementations, which
most of these use, could they really be considered to be "reinventing"
anything? It has become a standard paradigm, it's not new any more.
>
> Personally I'm not a real fan of all those forums, they are
> missing:
>
> - Use of my favorite editor
That's more a limitation of web browsers than the forums. GUI
newsreaders also don't let you use your favorite editor, so Usenet is
not much different unless you happen to use a newsreader that allows you
to specify a particular editor. And the only reason there are
newsreaders that offer this option is because Usenet predates widespread
GUI availability, and the traditional text-based newsreaders haven't
died out.
> - Missing spell checking
Most forums offer this, I think.
> - No or pretty lame kill filling capability
True.
> - No possibility to just pipe an article through whatever I like
Again, that's a browser vs newsreader problem, not a forum versus Usenet
issue. Although I admit that complex web pages, like web forums, may be
inherently harder to extract the message text from automatically in
order to pipe it. But if there are any standard XML tags for forum
messages, they could be used by browsers to do this.
> - post bone articles
"bone articles"?
> - content if any can be easily lost
Most news servers expire articles after a few weeks.
> - more difficult to search
Huh? NNTP's searching capabilities are extremely limited. Every web
forum I've used has a search feature, and they often have lots of
options. Are you comparing them to Google Groups's search engine? But
Google Groups is a web-forum-style front-end, not plain Usenet.
--
Barry Margolin, barmar@alum.mit.edu
Arlington, MA
*** PLEASE post questions in newsgroups, not directly to me ***
*** PLEASE don't copy me on replies, I'll read them in the group ***
| |
| Michael Heiming 2006-04-27, 7:56 am |
| In comp.unix.admin Barry Margolin <barmar@alum.mit.edu>:
> In article <tdb0h3-bin.ln1@news.heiming.de>,
> Michael Heiming <michael+USENET@www.heiming.de> wrote:
[ http forum vs. usenet ]
[vbcol=seagreen]
[vbcol=seagreen]
> That's more a limitation of web browsers than the forums. GUI
> newsreaders also don't let you use your favorite editor, so Usenet is
> not much different unless you happen to use a newsreader that allows you
> to specify a particular editor. And the only reason there are
> newsreaders that offer this option is because Usenet predates widespread
> GUI availability, and the traditional text-based newsreaders haven't
> died out.
Wrong, while I'm using 'tin' just checked out knode (KDE GUI nntp
reader) and it does offer to use "External Editor" of your choice.
[vbcol=seagreen]
> Most forums offer this, I think.
Didn't saw a single that did until today.
[vbcol=seagreen]
> True.
[vbcol=seagreen]
> Again, that's a browser vs newsreader problem, not a forum versus Usenet
> issue. Although I admit that complex web pages, like web forums, may be
> inherently harder to extract the message text from automatically in
> order to pipe it. But if there are any standard XML tags for forum
> messages, they could be used by browsers to do this.
Perhaps, still dunno a single GUI browser allowing this, which
was my point.
[vbcol=seagreen]
> "bone articles"?
Store articles for later posting.
[vbcol=seagreen]
> Most news servers expire articles after a few weeks.
Sure, but there are multiple www sites mirroring usenet for
archive purposes, the most important groups.google.com.
[vbcol=seagreen]
> Huh? NNTP's searching capabilities are extremely limited. Every web
> forum I've used has a search feature, and they often have lots of
> options. Are you comparing them to Google Groups's search engine? But
> Google Groups is a web-forum-style front-end, not plain Usenet.
Of course it is and that the purpose of it.
Sorry, but I don't see your points...
--
Michael Heiming (X-PGP-Sig > GPG-Key ID: EDD27B94)
mail: echo zvpunry@urvzvat.qr | PERL -pe 'y/a-z/n-za-m/'
#bofh excuse 284: Electrons on a bender
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| Begin <barmar-DBE3F1.00234513042006@comcast.dca.giganews.com>
On 2006-04-13, Barry Margolin <barmar@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> Since there are now a handful of standard forum implementations, which
> most of these use, could they really be considered to be "reinventing"
> anything? It has become a standard paradigm, it's not new any more.
Yes, it is reinvented usenet, badly. ``Standard'' (and notoriously
leaky) implementations don't change that a bit.
>
> That's more a limitation of web browsers than the forums. GUI
> newsreaders also don't let you use your favorite editor, so Usenet is
> not much different unless you happen to use a newsreader that allows you
> to specify a particular editor. And the only reason there are
> newsreaders that offer this option is because Usenet predates widespread
> GUI availability, and the traditional text-based newsreaders haven't
> died out.
Not quite. You're right in the sense that browsers might develop
pluggable or configurable edit fields, but that is not the whole of
the problem. One other consideration on this level is that there are a
multitude of usenet readers, including GUI ones, but browsers are still
few and far between. It doesn't help that browser applications have done
far too much and even now that mozilla's been split up, firefox still
is doing far too much. In part because too many unrelated things have
been webified for buzzword compliance if no other reason.
Teh intarweb is the killer app of the great unwashed, and it sure is
good at killing things, including itself. It is here to stay because
it has enough momentum that people will keep it alive at all costs,
including reinventing things out of ignorance to existing solutions.
>
> Again, that's a browser vs newsreader problem, not a forum versus Usenet
> issue. Although I admit that complex web pages, like web forums, may be
> inherently harder to extract the message text from automatically in
> order to pipe it. But if there are any standard XML tags for forum
> messages, they could be used by browsers to do this.
It isn't just the extracting, but also that the 'web inherently carries
with it presentation information that just isn't present in USENET.
That is, the separation between presentation and content is blurred if
not lost. A consequence is that you can't just separate out ``browser
vs. newsreader'' because newsreaders do things to the raw data that if
you get it from a forum server is already packed in unrelated crap that
browsers don't know how to separate out of sheer lack of metadata, if
not lack of implementation logic.
You're right that you could use XML to add the necessairy metadata
again. The benefit would be that the user can then toss away the crap
surrounding the messages and have a client do the entire presentation
thing. That all still counts as reinventing, and a serious loss of
efficiency to the actual communication to boot.
Then again, reinventing square wheels is the hallmark of the largest
consumer s/w company on the planet so surprised at the practice I'm not.
--
j p d (at) d s b (dot) t u d e l f t (dot) n l .
This message was originally posted on Usenet in plain text.
Any other representation, additions, or changes do not have my
consent and may be a violation of international copyright law.
| |
| Barry Margolin 2006-04-27, 7:56 am |
| In article <qe91h3-pl5.ln1@news.heiming.de>,
Michael Heiming <michael+USENET@www.heiming.de> wrote:
> In comp.unix.admin Barry Margolin <barmar@alum.mit.edu>:
>
>
> Didn't saw a single that did until today.
>
>
>
>
>
> Perhaps, still dunno a single GUI browser allowing this, which
> was my point.
Kind of hypocritical to complain about the lack of spell checking in
forums, and then not use it in Usenet. AFAIK, there's no such word as
"dunno".
If I wanted to pipe a forum article, I would just cut and paste it into
the other application. Even back in the days when I used trn I didn't
make much use of its piping ability -- maybe once every month or two.
You might just as well complain about the entire web, since it's hard to
pipe any web page.
--
Barry Margolin, barmar@alum.mit.edu
Arlington, MA
*** PLEASE post questions in newsgroups, not directly to me ***
*** PLEASE don't copy me on replies, I'll read them in the group ***
| |
| Michael Heiming 2006-04-27, 7:56 am |
| In comp.unix.admin Barry Margolin <barmar@alum.mit.edu>:
> In article <qe91h3-pl5.ln1@news.heiming.de>,
> Michael Heiming <michael+USENET@www.heiming.de> wrote:
[vbcol=seagreen]
> Kind of hypocritical to complain about the lack of spell checking in
> forums, and then not use it in Usenet. AFAIK, there's no such word as
> "dunno".
Looks like I have configured the spell checker to accept the word
"dunno", seems to me a common abbreviation of "do not know". ;-)
> If I wanted to pipe a forum article, I would just cut and paste it into
> the other application. Even back in the days when I used trn I didn't
> make much use of its piping ability -- maybe once every month or two.
> You might just as well complain about the entire web, since it's hard to
> pipe any web page.
Really?
lynx -dump http://www.heiming.de/ | grep Michael
Seems to work for fine for me...
--
Michael Heiming (X-PGP-Sig > GPG-Key ID: EDD27B94)
mail: echo zvpunry@urvzvat.qr | PERL -pe 'y/a-z/n-za-m/'
#bofh excuse 258: That's easy to fix, but I can't be bothered.
| |
| Barry Margolin 2006-04-27, 7:56 am |
| In article <sfn3h3-gb8.ln1@news.heiming.de>,
Michael Heiming <michael+USENET@www.heiming.de> wrote:
> In comp.unix.admin Barry Margolin <barmar@alum.mit.edu>:
>
> Really?
> lynx -dump http://www.heiming.de/ | grep Michael
>
> Seems to work for fine for me...
OK, I guess I meant *most* web pages. Most of the web makes heavy use
of frames and fancy layout, so getting at the specific URL that contains
the stuff you want to pipe will be difficult.
I'm sure you'll agree that your home page is quite atypical, so it's not
much more than an academic refutation of my claim. The web would be
great if you could pipe the output of a Google search, for instance, but
good luck with that (you're probably better off piping the raw source to
a tool that understands XML).
--
Barry Margolin, barmar@alum.mit.edu
Arlington, MA
*** PLEASE post questions in newsgroups, not directly to me ***
*** PLEASE don't copy me on replies, I'll read them in the group ***
| |
| Michael Heiming 2006-04-27, 7:56 am |
| In comp.unix.admin Barry Margolin <barmar@alum.mit.edu>:
> In article <sfn3h3-gb8.ln1@news.heiming.de>,
> Michael Heiming <michael+USENET@www.heiming.de> wrote:
[vbcol=seagreen]
> OK, I guess I meant *most* web pages. Most of the web makes heavy use
> of frames and fancy layout, so getting at the specific URL that contains
> the stuff you want to pipe will be difficult.
> I'm sure you'll agree that your home page is quite atypical, so it's not
> much more than an academic refutation of my claim. The web would be
> great if you could pipe the output of a Google search, for instance, but
> good luck with that (you're probably better off piping the raw source to
> a tool that understands XML).
Unsure what you are talking about? According to you something
like the following wouldn't be possible:
wget -U MSIE6 -O - \
http://groups.google.com/groups?as_...axy=2006\&safe=
off \
| sed -n -e "s/\(.*\)\(href=\"\/group\/\)\(.*\)\(\/browse.*\)/\3/p" -e "/*Results/s/<[^>]*b>//gp" |\
sort | uniq -c | sed "1s/ ^\(.*\)\(Results.*\)/\2/" | sort -nr
Sorry for over length line, URL is sad enough really 258 characters!
--
Michael Heiming (X-PGP-Sig > GPG-Key ID: EDD27B94)
mail: echo zvpunry@urvzvat.qr | PERL -pe 'y/a-z/n-za-m/'
#bofh excuse 349: Stray Alpha Particles from memory packaging
caused Hard Memory Error on Server.
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| Mogens V. 2006-04-27, 7:57 am |
| Dave (from the UK) wrote:
> But what does it offer than a newsgroup does not?
Maybe lack of flames?
--
Kind regards,
Mogens V.
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