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Sysadmin resume (re)writers?
|
|
|
| Hello,
Just wondering if any of you have ever used a professional resume writing
service and if so, which one were you satisfied with? I've got a standard
resume that is just a chronological listing and I think it's hampering my
search. Don't really want to just pick a company at random since systems
programming and administration is a bit more technical than what most
firms appear to be focused on and I'd like to find a place that kind of
understands what I do for a living so they'll be able to do it right...
Had a company recommended to me, but they appear to do executives, etc.
and they cost $500, which is a bit much. :-(
Thanks in advance for any info!
| |
| Dave Hinz 2007-04-04, 1:18 am |
| On Tue, 3 Apr 2007 15:47:22 +0000 (UTC), b <nospam@nowhere.invalid> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Just wondering if any of you have ever used a professional resume writing
> service and if so, which one were you satisfied with?
I just send it to a trusted friend with permission to red-pen the hell
out of it.
> I've got a standard
> resume that is just a chronological listing and I think it's hampering my
> search. Don't really want to just pick a company at random since systems
> programming and administration is a bit more technical than what most
> firms appear to be focused on and I'd like to find a place that kind of
> understands what I do for a living so they'll be able to do it right...
> Had a company recommended to me, but they appear to do executives, etc.
> and they cost $500, which is a bit much. :-(
Any headhunter worth going with is paid by the hiring company, not by
you. I have 2 in Wisconsin who I trust if you're in that area.
| |
|
| Dave Hinz <DaveHinz@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 3 Apr 2007 15:47:22 +0000 (UTC), b <nospam@nowhere.invalid> wrote:
>
> I just send it to a trusted friend with permission to red-pen the hell
> out of it.
Mine's completely free of any grammar, punctuation, or spelling errors -
what I'm looking for is a functional rewrite so that I'll get calls
instead of being round-filed. And none of my friends have any idea what I
actually do, so they can't help with that. :-(
>
> Any headhunter worth going with is paid by the hiring company, not by
> you. I have 2 in Wisconsin who I trust if you're in that area.
Nothing to do with headhunters/recruiters - I was asking about
professional resume writing firms that specialize in IT (and know about
sysadmin stuff, additionally), but thanks anyway. :-)
| |
| Robert Melson 2007-04-04, 7:22 pm |
| In article <ev0s64$t0d$3@e250.ripco.com>,
b <nospam@nowhere.invalid> writes:
> Dave Hinz <DaveHinz@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Mine's completely free of any grammar, punctuation, or spelling errors -
> what I'm looking for is a functional rewrite so that I'll get calls
> instead of being round-filed. And none of my friends have any idea what I
> actually do, so they can't help with that. :-(
>
>
> Nothing to do with headhunters/recruiters - I was asking about
> professional resume writing firms that specialize in IT (and know about
> sysadmin stuff, additionally), but thanks anyway. :-)
If you stop to think about your problem, you should come to the
realization that the folks who can help you most are the ones who
know the market and what "sells" - truly good headhunters. Dave's
advice is right on the mark, it seems to me, although, as with
almost everything in life, your mileage may vary. Like Dave, I, too,
have a trusted headhunter, one with whom I've dealt for the last
20 or so years and whose advice on how best to market myself and my
skills I value. Look at it this way: the resume preparer receives
his fee based on the paper he returns to you and really could care
less about whether it's effective in getting you a new position; the
headhunter, on the other hand, receives his fee only if he is successful
in placing you in that new position. Which do you think will do a
better job for you? This is not to say that a whiz-bang resume won't
help, but the guy that'll help you most in developing that resume
is the headhunter, not the for-a-fee resume preparation service.
My $0.02.
Bob Melson
--
Robert G. Melson | Rio Grande MicroSolutions | El Paso, Texas
-----
"People unfit for freedom---who cannot do much with it---are
hungry for power." ---Eric Hoffer
| |
| Todd H. 2007-04-04, 7:22 pm |
| b <nospam@nowhere.invalid> writes:
> Nothing to do with headhunters/recruiters - I was asking about
> professional resume writing firms that specialize in IT (and know about
> sysadmin stuff, additionally), but thanks anyway. :-)
I'm starting to see the picture as to why you're not getting hired as
quickly as you'd like.
--
Todd H.
http://www.toddh.net/
| |
|
| Todd H. <comphelp@toddh.net> wrote:
> b <nospam@nowhere.invalid> writes:
>
>
> I'm starting to see the picture as to why you're not getting hired as
> quickly as you'd like.
And that would be? I asked about professional resume writing firms and
got an answer back about using headhunters, so I pointed that out and said
thanks? Wow, strange reason to not hire someone... Seriously, though,
why do you say that?
And I'm pretty sure the reason I'm not getting hired where I want to be
hired is that my resume's not "pretty" enough, my cover letters aren't up
to snuff, it's in another state, and my skills aren't guru level (massive
clustering, Veritas, and networking experience with hundreds of servers is
what most companies seem to want, and I don't have that).
| |
|
| Robert Melson <melsonr@aragorn.rgmhome.net> wrote:
>
> If you stop to think about your problem, you should come to the
> realization that the folks who can help you most are the ones who
> know the market and what "sells" - truly good headhunters.
True, I agree.
> Dave's
> advice is right on the mark, it seems to me, although, as with
> almost everything in life, your mileage may vary.
Yep, mine has varied significantly - after a layoff, 99% of the
headhunters I talked to were basically cheerleader salesgirls that knew
nothing about tech (much less sysadmin-type tech).
> Like Dave, I, too,
> have a trusted headhunter, one with whom I've dealt for the last
> 20 or so years and whose advice on how best to market myself and my
> skills I value.
Damn, can I have his name? :-) The recruiters I've worked with (and very
few stick around for more than a few years here, so it's hard to get
continuity) only work in this geographic area and if I want to move out of
it (which I do), I pretty much have to start all over with a new set of
recruiters who only work in *their* geographic area.
> Look at it this way: the resume preparer receives
> his fee based on the paper he returns to you and really could care
> less about whether it's effective in getting you a new position; the
> headhunter, on the other hand, receives his fee only if he is successful
> in placing you in that new position. Which do you think will do a
> better job for you? This is not to say that a whiz-bang resume won't
> help, but the guy that'll help you most in developing that resume
> is the headhunter, not the for-a-fee resume preparation service.
>
> My $0.02.
Good advice, unfortunately I just can't find headhunters that good and/or
that know about sysadmin stuff. The tech-savvy ones really just don't
know enough about sysadmins to make any kind of suggestions/changes that
sound viable to me, and the cheer-hunters just have no clue whatsoever.
If there were firms that specialized in systems admin/programming, that
would be nice (and there may be, I haven't done the requisite web search
yet, but I think they're few and far between)...
Thanks.
| |
| Todd H. 2007-04-04, 7:22 pm |
| b <nospam@nowhere.invalid> writes:
> Todd H. <comphelp@toddh.net> wrote:
>
> And that would be? I asked about professional resume writing firms and
> got an answer back about using headhunters, so I pointed that out and said
> thanks? Wow, strange reason to not hire someone... Seriously, though,
> why do you say that?
I was just poking a bit at your need to point out that someone (who
took the time to give you free advice) didn't answer your question to
your liking, and you were sort of a smart XXX about pointing it out.
Alternate, more graceful tacks:
Take what was useful in the response and ignore that you
didn't find useful. After all, you get what you pay for in
usenet, sometimes more
or
Ask a followup question such as "You mention headhunters and
recruiters... do they provide this sort of feedback too?
Would they be better than a flat rate paid service perhaps?"
You attract more flies with sugar than with vinegar, et al...
> And I'm pretty sure the reason I'm not getting hired where I want to be
> hired is that my resume's not "pretty" enough, my cover letters aren't up
> to snuff, it's in another state, and my skills aren't guru level (massive
> clustering, Veritas, and networking experience with hundreds of servers is
> what most companies seem to want, and I don't have that).
Send me your resume. Strip out personal contact info. You'll have to
trust that I'm very good at this and I'll be happy to give you some
tips as to why your resume is not getting return calls. My email is
on my website--address is not replyable. You won't be charged.
If your job hunting however is consisting only of sending resumes and
cover letters out to companies blindly, there are more effective
means. So much is about networking -- getting inside contacts,
getting your resume directly to a hiring manager and avoiding HR
goons whose job is to throw resumes in the trash. use your alma
mater, use your student directories from places you attended, use
meetup, use friendster, get in touch with people who are in this
field. It's possible simply that your target employers aren't hiring
right now as well, but tapping into that hidden job market through
people networking is the way to go...
Best Regards,
--
Todd H.
http://www.toddh.net/
| |
| Robert Melson 2007-04-04, 7:22 pm |
| In article <ev12pu$7c3$2@e250.ripco.com>,
b <nospam@nowhere.invalid> writes:
> Robert Melson <melsonr@aragorn.rgmhome.net> wrote:
<snip>>[vbcol=seagreen]
> Damn, can I have his name? :-) The recruiters I've worked with (and very
> few stick around for more than a few years here, so it's hard to get
> continuity) only work in this geographic area and if I want to move out of
> it (which I do), I pretty much have to start all over with a new set of
> recruiters who only work in *their* geographic area.
Contact me off-line and I'll happily provide name and 800-number.
One caveat - the principal of this firm is a "good ol' boy" and
doesn't suffer bullshit lightly. In point of fact, however,
it's the firm and not just the principal that kept me going back.
<snip>
Bob Melson
--
Robert G. Melson | Rio Grande MicroSolutions | El Paso, Texas
-----
"People unfit for freedom---who cannot do much with it---are
hungry for power." ---Eric Hoffer
| |
| Michael Vilain 2007-04-05, 1:21 am |
| In article <ev12cc$7c3$1@e250.ripco.com>, b <nospam@nowhere.invalid>
wrote:
> Todd H. <comphelp@toddh.net> wrote:
>
> And that would be? I asked about professional resume writing firms and
> got an answer back about using headhunters, so I pointed that out and said
> thanks? Wow, strange reason to not hire someone... Seriously, though,
> why do you say that?
>
> And I'm pretty sure the reason I'm not getting hired where I want to be
> hired is that my resume's not "pretty" enough, my cover letters aren't up
> to snuff, it's in another state, and my skills aren't guru level (massive
> clustering, Veritas, and networking experience with hundreds of servers is
> what most companies seem to want, and I don't have that).
It's been my experience to use the advise of the headhunter that's got a
position they want to present me for to make suggestions for tweaks to a
resume. If you aren't confident as to the general usefulness of the
current version of your resume, a headhunter will probably tell you at
the initial meeting.
If all you want is advise on the resume, take an english class at a
community college. You'll probably at least listen to the instructor.
It's bad form to ask questions in news groups then dis the advise given.
--
DeeDee, don't press that button! DeeDee! NO! Dee...
| |
|
| Michael Vilain <vilain@spamcop.net> wrote:
>
> It's been my experience to use the advise of the headhunter that's got a
> position they want to present me for to make suggestions for tweaks to a
> resume. If you aren't confident as to the general usefulness of the
> current version of your resume, a headhunter will probably tell you at
> the initial meeting.
You guys have got *much* better headhunters than I've ever used/met - 99%
of them try to present me for a job, then drop contact after that unless
they have another job there just is not the long-term commitment among any
of them that you seem to have. One recruiter actually told me to put
"laid off" *on* my resume under a position I was laid off from! That's
the kind of quality I seem to find (and I've tried many, many recruiting
firms) here in the Chicago area.
> If all you want is advise on the resume, take an english class at a
> community college. You'll probably at least listen to the instructor.
Like I said, mine is perfectly fine from that respect (spelling, etc.), it
just apparently doesn't look the way it should. And I seriously doubt
that I could get useful advice on a resume for a 20 year career in
systems admin and programming, but thanks. :-)
> It's bad form to ask questions in news groups then dis the advise given.
I *wasn't* dissing the advice, the poster gave an answer that seemed to be
not related to the question - I ask about professional resume writing
firms and get an answer about headhunters, so I think "huh?" and politely
thank the poster for his advice. Wow, you guys are sensitive...
| |
|
| Todd H. <comphelp@toddh.net> wrote:
>
> I was just poking a bit at your need to point out that someone (who
> took the time to give you free advice) didn't answer your question to
> your liking, and you were sort of a smart XXX about pointing it out.
OK, your definition of smart XXX and mine are apparently not the same.
Trust me, if I would've been (what I consider) a smart XXX, it would've
been a lot more interesting. :-) See my other reply (to Michael, I think)
for my explanation of the response...
> Alternate, more graceful tacks:
> Take what was useful in the response and ignore that you
> didn't find useful. After all, you get what you pay for in
> usenet, sometimes more
> or
> Ask a followup question such as "You mention headhunters and
> recruiters... do they provide this sort of feedback too?
> Would they be better than a flat rate paid service perhaps?"
>
> You attract more flies with sugar than with vinegar, et al...
Yeah, but I've used headhunters for about 10 years (so I know about them
quite well) and never gotten that kind of support, help, feedback, or
commitment. And so very few recruiters are knowledgeable about sysadmin
work (they know IT, but not specifically sysadmin stuff). Guess I've been
using the wrong headhunters... :-( Are there headhunters that specialize
in sysadmins? Or that even know sysadmin work well enough to not spell
out PERL instead of just saying PERL (seriously, I've had some that are
that bad)? :-)
>
> Send me your resume. Strip out personal contact info. You'll have to
> trust that I'm very good at this and I'll be happy to give you some
> tips as to why your resume is not getting return calls. My email is
> on my website--address is not replyable. You won't be charged.
That could be interesting - I'd appreciate it (I don't mind personal info
in personal emails, just here on Usenet for certain things :-)) very much,
I'll try to get it sent off today, thanks!
> If your job hunting however is consisting only of sending resumes and
> cover letters out to companies blindly, there are more effective
> means.
Well, it's not *totally* blind, but replying to ads on Monster,
careerbuilder, etc. So it's not as efficient as it needs to be (but I got
my previous job from Monster, my current one from the company website, and
my interim consulting one (during the period when I was laid off between
my previous perm job and my current perm job) from a company seeing my
resume on Monster (or hotjobs or somewhere else, I forget where).
> So much is about networking -- getting inside contacts,
> getting your resume directly to a hiring manager and avoiding HR
> goons whose job is to throw resumes in the trash. use your alma
> mater, use your student directories from places you attended, use
> meetup, use friendster, get in touch with people who are in this
> field. It's possible simply that your target employers aren't hiring
> right now as well, but tapping into that hidden job market through
> people networking is the way to go...
Yeah, I already know about this, but if where I want to be is 5 states
away, that seriously complicates things. Went to a commuter university,
and worked at a co-op job with the USAF while I was there (and that was
another 5 states away from where I'm at currently), so don't really know
anybody there that could help, Linked In seems like it might work, but
hasn't so far, etc. Basically, what I'm seeing is that if you want to
relocate to another state, you're kind of screwed because companies want
local applicants, contacts are hard to find if you're not physically
there, sysadmins seem to be more "lone rangers" than say, developers, so
opportunities for networking aren't quite as easy as it is for them (or
for sales, VPs, etc.).
Thanks to all for the continuing discussion (and, no, I'm not being a
smart XXX, I am getting value out of it)...
| |
| Todd H. 2007-04-05, 1:26 pm |
| b <nospam@nowhere.invalid> writes:
> Michael Vilain <vilain@spamcop.net> wrote:
>
> You guys have got *much* better headhunters than I've ever used/met - 99%
> of them try to present me for a job, then drop contact after that unless
> they have another job there just is not the long-term commitment among any
> of them that you seem to have. One recruiter actually told me to put
> "laid off" *on* my resume under a position I was laid off from! That's
> the kind of quality I seem to find (and I've tried many, many recruiting
> firms) here in the Chicago area.
There are an awful lot of headhunters that are part of the "get rich
quick" crowd. Many of them were starved off back after the 90's boom
time, but there are still a frightening number of headhunters that are
complete morons, or are just interested in placement with as little
work as possible.
While my online resume on my personal site has gotten me tons and tons
of email from all walks of these clowns, it's hilarious what a small
percentage actually read even the first paragraph of your resume to
determine whether an opportunity is actually relevant.
Personally, I've never had occasion or need to go the headhunter
route. I'm extremely suspicious about a profession where they have
every incentive to lead you down the primrose path about a job so they
can collect your commission. And for those who feel "who cares, the
employer pays those," don't think that the employer isn't doing the
mental math when that salary offer comes back. The employer is fully
aware that they need to pay a headhunter commission when they write
your offer. If you can get in the door without hte headhunter, so
much the better. Network network network.
Career builder and monster are the modern equivalent to newspaper want
ads, which also were exceedingly low-hit-rate job hunting techniques
unfortunately.
Good luck in your hunts and if your resume comes through I'd be happy
to hazard an opinion if there's anything glaringly out of wack.
--
Todd H.
http://www.toddh.net/
| |
| Doug Freyburger 2007-04-05, 7:21 pm |
| comph...@toddh.net (Todd H.) wrote:
> b <nos...@nowhere.invalid> writes:
>
I have quite different experience. If I want to send a resume cold
I use my existing modular one. I reorder the bullets into the order
of items in the listing. For words that mean the same think I
swap words to get exact spelling matches. I keep several of my
regular bullets sorted near the end. I drop excess for length. Only
then do I send it, but I send it in plain text not even setting font
sizes. It isn't pretty - It's intended to get past a bean counter
checking off from a list. All a resume does is get me to the
interview. Get me to the interview and I'll interview the people and
company up one side and down the next to see if I want to work
with them.
Note my comment about modular. I ended up with a resume of
skills bullets not chronological. Some like it some don't. By and
large the ones that don't are places I'm not interested in working
at, but there have been exceptions. My idea is that I know what
I am current at and what I'm not current at. If the person doing
the checklist sees something listed several years ago and fails
to pass me to the interview because of that, that's what a
technical interview is supposed to be for.
[vbcol=seagreen]
> Send me your resume. Strip out personal contact info. You'll have to
> trust that I'm very good at this and I'll be happy to give you some
> tips as to why your resume is not getting return calls. My email is
> on my website--address is not replyable. You won't be charged.
I would be happy to do so as well, no promises of response time.
My address is reply-able.
> If your job hunting however is consisting only of sending resumes and
> cover letters out to companies blindly, there are more effective
> means. So much is about networking -- getting inside contacts,
> getting your resume directly to a hiring manager and avoiding HR
> goons whose job is to throw resumes in the trash. use your alma
> mater, use your student directories from places you attended, use
> meetup, use friendster, get in touch with people who are in this
> field. It's possible simply that your target employers aren't hiring
> right now as well, but tapping into that hidden job market through
> people networking is the way to go...
Absolutely. Having someone call you and ask for a resume works
best. Getting a resume placed directly on the hiring decision maker's
desk by an internal contact is next best. Applying direct not through
a headhunter maybe okay. Working with a headhunter depends
very much on the headhunter's quality. Responding to DICE may work
but is very much a shot in the dark.
| |
| Dave Hinz 2007-04-06, 1:21 am |
| On Wed, 4 Apr 2007 18:52:52 +0000 (UTC), b <nospam@nowhere.invalid> wrote:
> Dave Hinz <DaveHinz@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Mine's completely free of any grammar, punctuation, or spelling errors -
> what I'm looking for is a functional rewrite so that I'll get calls
> instead of being round-filed. And none of my friends have any idea what I
> actually do, so they can't help with that. :-(
Sounds like you need some techie friends.
[vbcol=seagreen]
> Nothing to do with headhunters/recruiters - I was asking about
> professional resume writing firms that specialize in IT (and know about
> sysadmin stuff, additionally), but thanks anyway. :-)
Right, but my point is, a good headhunter will do this _for_ you as part
of his way of getting you hired.
| |
| Dave Hinz 2007-04-06, 1:21 am |
| On Wed, 4 Apr 2007 20:45:50 +0000 (UTC), b <nospam@nowhere.invalid> wrote:
> Damn, can I have his name? :-) The recruiters I've worked with (and very
> few stick around for more than a few years here, so it's hard to get
> continuity) only work in this geographic area and if I want to move out of
> it (which I do), I pretty much have to start all over with a new set of
> recruiters who only work in *their* geographic area.
Do you want to tell us where you are, or just have us guess?
| |
| Dave Hinz 2007-04-06, 1:21 am |
| On Wed, 4 Apr 2007 20:38:36 +0000 (UTC), b <nospam@nowhere.invalid> wrote:
> Todd H. <comphelp@toddh.net> wrote:
>
> And that would be? I asked about professional resume writing firms and
> got an answer back about using headhunters, so I pointed that out and said
> thanks? Wow, strange reason to not hire someone... Seriously, though,
> why do you say that?
I'm not Todd but, your tone has kind of turned me off.
> And I'm pretty sure the reason I'm not getting hired where I want to be
> hired is that my resume's not "pretty" enough, my cover letters aren't up
> to snuff, it's in another state, and my skills aren't guru level (massive
> clustering, Veritas, and networking experience with hundreds of servers is
> what most companies seem to want, and I don't have that).
Yup, that's the problem.
| |
|
| Dave Hinz <DaveHinz@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 4 Apr 2007 20:45:50 +0000 (UTC), b <nospam@nowhere.invalid> wrote:
>
>
> Do you want to tell us where you are, or just have us guess?
Doesn't really matter, I don't think, because it's kinda the same no
matter what area you're in, but I'm in the Chicago area. :-)
| |
|
| Dave Hinz <DaveHinz@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 4 Apr 2007 18:52:52 +0000 (UTC), b <nospam@nowhere.invalid> wrote:
>
> Sounds like you need some techie friends.
No way, because techie friends tend to talk about tech all the time and
once I leave work, I try to leave all tech behind (unless it's my oncall
week, etc.). I'm not one of those guys that does sysadmin all day and
then goes home to work on a Linux system, and then jacks around with his
router and home network after that, etc. :-) I go home and read
books/mags, watch movies, listen to music, walk around outside when it's
not freezing, etc. and have as little to do with that evil PC as
possible...
>
>
> Right, but my point is, a good headhunter will do this _for_ you as part
> of his way of getting you hired.
Great point, I just missed it because my headhunter/recruiter experience
just hasn't included that and it didn't even occur to me that they would
actually do that - as I've found out, the recruiters I've been working
with pretty much suck as far as that goes. I need new recruiters that
aren't just sales-type people and can barely spell UNIX - working on that,
thanks to suggestions from folks here...
| |
|
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Doug Freyburger <dfreybur@yahoo.com> wrote:
> [snip]
>
> Note my comment about modular. I ended up with a resume of
> skills bullets not chronological.
Great point(s) - I have been considering redoing it as a functional and
not chronological resume (or a combo of both, with functional skills on
top and a slimmed down chron section at bottom).
> I would be happy to do so as well, no promises of response time.
> My address is reply-able.
That'd be fantastic - I'll send it today if I get around to it! As Todd
said, networking works, so thanks to y'all for helping me out, and if
there's anything I can do in return, let me know!
> Absolutely. Having someone call you and ask for a resume works
> best. Getting a resume placed directly on the hiring decision maker's
> desk by an internal contact is next best.
My friends suck at this - I am working at a company where a friend of mine
got hired 6 months before I did. I saw this position on the company
website and asked him about it, he said he didn't know who was hiring for
it, etc., and I could send him my resume, but he couldn't guarantee
anything. I sent it to him, but also applied cold through the company
website to the position, talked to remote-located HR folks, finally got an
interview with the local hiring mgr, and got hired. My "friend" had
nothing to do with me getting hired, even though it turns out he just had
to walk down one floor, ask the HR person who was hiring for that
position, then walk across that floor and give my resume to that guy, but
he couldn't do that for me... :-(
> Applying direct not through a headhunter maybe okay.
Got my current job that way - probably just lucky and willing to work
cheap since I was currently laid off at that time.
> Working with a headhunter depends very much on the headhunter's quality.
Definitely agree there!
> Responding to DICE may work but is very much a shot in the dark.
Got my last job by replying to a monster ad, but just lucky and willing to
work cheap to get a better commute and learn UNIX, so that one worked out
well too... But when I was laid off, applied through dice, monster,
hotjobs, and a billion other sites, and those didn't work, so definitely
chancy.
| |
|
| Todd H. <comphelp@toddh.net> wrote:
>
> There are an awful lot of headhunters that are part of the "get rich
> quick" crowd. Many of them were starved off back after the 90's boom
> time, but there are still a frightening number of headhunters that are
> complete morons, or are just interested in placement with as little
> work as possible.
>
> While my online resume on my personal site has gotten me tons and tons
> of email from all walks of these clowns, it's hilarious what a small
> percentage actually read even the first paragraph of your resume to
> determine whether an opportunity is actually relevant.
The positions I got called about were relevant, but the recruiters were as
you described in the first paragraph. They seem to hire sorority
girls/cheerleaders/fratboys and have them basically be sales-types with
very little tech training/knowledge - very frustrating! :-(
> Career builder and monster are the modern equivalent to newspaper want
> ads, which also were exceedingly low-hit-rate job hunting techniques
> unfortunately.
Gotten some hits/interviews (and one job) out of those, but yeah, not a
great way to find a job...
| |
| Doug Freyburger 2007-04-07, 1:21 am |
| b <nos...@nowhere.invalid> wrote:
>
>
> That'd be fantastic - I'll send it today if I get around to it! As Todd
> said, networking works, so thanks to y'all for helping me out, and if
> there's anything I can do in return, let me know!
Let me know if I don't respond to it in a couple of days in case it
ends up spam trapped in my mailbox.
| |
| Dave Hinz 2007-04-07, 1:22 pm |
| On Fri, 6 Apr 2007 14:48:42 +0000 (UTC), b <nospam@nowhere.invalid> wrote:
> Dave Hinz <DaveHinz@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Doesn't really matter, I don't think, because it's kinda the same no
> matter what area you're in, but I'm in the Chicago area. :-)
You're a very hard person to try to help. Imagine how much better this
could be going right now if you'd ask something like:
"I live in Chicago but am looking to relocate (or not?). Can anyone
suggest a good headhunter in (list of areas) that they've dealt with?"
Ah well. Good luck.
| |
|
| Dave Hinz <DaveHinz@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 6 Apr 2007 14:48:42 +0000 (UTC), b <nospam@nowhere.invalid> wrote:
>
> You're a very hard person to try to help. Imagine how much better this
> could be going right now if you'd ask something like:
> "I live in Chicago but am looking to relocate (or not?). Can anyone
> suggest a good headhunter in (list of areas) that they've dealt with?"
Sorry, but I believe some measure of anonymity is called for on my part -
I really don't want to give out too many details because they could
eventually link me to past posts, and if a current/future employer started
poking around and found out I was looking elsewhere, .... It would
probably be easy enough to do that, but I just don't want to hand it to
anybody on a plate 'cos you never know.... I mean, do you want your
employer to just do a quick google and see a post from you that says "I
live here and would like some headhunter references for here because I
want to move"?
> Ah well. Good luck.
Thanks, hopefully I will have some.
| |
| Michael Paoli 2007-04-15, 7:18 pm |
| b wrote in news:eutsua$j7d$1@e250.ripco.com:
> Just wondering if any of you have ever used a professional resume writing
> service and if so, which one were you satisfied with? I've got a standard
> resume that is just a chronological listing and I think it's hampering my
> search. Don't really want to just pick a company at random since systems
> programming and administration is a bit more technical than what most
> firms appear to be focused on and I'd like to find a place that kind of
> understands what I do for a living so they'll be able to do it right...
> Had a company recommended to me, but they appear to do executives, etc.
> and they cost $500, which is a bit much. :-(
My advice:
First of all, learn to do it (mostly) yourself. This will serve you
much better in the long run. Besides, if, within the hiring process,
a potential employer learns you're not quite capable of writing the
resume you've submitted, how will that impact their decision process?
If you haven't already, check out books on resume writing, and
example resumes, and also books that cover that specifically for
technical field(s) ... IT specifically, if you can find such (they do
exist). And I do mean book*s* - don't just go out and buy one book.
The various books will have at least somewhat differing and even
conflicting advice. There isn't necessarily "one" right answer. Be
at least somewhat cautious with "older" books of that nature - e.g.
particularly more than about 5 to especially 10 or more years old.
Styles/trends/expectations, etc. on resumes *do* change over time -
so what was the "perfect" resume 15 years ago, taken and updated with
all the relevant current skills that are hot on the market, won't
make the "perfect" resume of today and may even fall quite short.
Also look over lots of examples of resumes - in technical, and other
fields. Get at least a rough idea of what you want your resume to
look like. One can typically find a pretty good collection of resume
writing and resume example books in better libraries (e.g. major
cities, college/university, better career/job center resource
locations, etc.). There are also lots of resumes that can be read on
the Internet as examples. There's also lots of material on the
Internet about resume writing and such - but beware that there is
great variation in quality among such materials.
Then take your first major stab at rewriting your resume. Once you've
"completed" that, now pretend you're a busy, over-worked and short
staffed hiring technical manager. You've got a pile of - at least -
200 resumes stacked in front of you. Today you finally managed to
allocate yourself 2 hours to work on them - but you'll trim that to a
bit less than 2 hours if you can, because you have lots of other hot
stuff you need to handle. In that 2 hours, you're going to go
through that whole pile of 200, and pick approximately 20 that you
think are worthy of further consideration. All the rest of them, you
might file, but in all likelihood. you'll never look at them again.
You won't have time to look at the resumes again after that for 2
days, ... after which you'll have 90 minutes to look at your earlier
top ~20 resume pick, and decide upon about 1/3 of those to line up
for short (~20 minute) rough cut tech. screening phone
calls(/"interviews").
So now, how, after the first major rewrite, does your resume stack up
under that type of examination criteria? View it as critically and as
objectively as feasible. And rewrite it another time or two,
reexamining and refining each time.
Now start getting some critical feedback from others. Especially
useful is feedback from those that have to go through lots of resumes
(e.g. recruiters, hiring managers, HR folks, etc.), but also useful is
feedback from anyone that can competently read it and give useful
feedback on what they did and didn't like about how it read and
presented you. Take all the useful information one can gather from
such feedback, and rewrite it again. Note also that not all "rules"
on resume writing are hard and fast. What works for "most" may not
work or fit quite right for you. Adjust things when appropriate, and
make sure that the finished resume is something you're quite
comfortable with and confident in. Don't overburden your resume
reviewers, but, graciously as necessary, get at least one more "final"
critical review by at least two people, to catch any
flaws/errors/omissions that might have escaped your eye. Make the
final corrections/tweaks as appropriate based on any additional
feedback from that, and your resume should be good to go.
Additional advice - there's lots of good advice included among this
"thread" (the chain of posts stemming from your original post). To
that I'll add/reiterate/emphasize:
agencies/recruiters/headhunters - there's certainly no shortage of
them out there. Unfortunately, there are horrible ones, lots of
mediocre ones, and relatively few very good to excellent ones. Keep
track of them - over time you'll learn which ones you actually care
to, or even very much want to, work with, which ones you're mostly
pretty neutral about, which ones you don't much care for, ... and
also those that you want to avoid like the plague. At quick count, I
find that I've got 126 that I've tracked and noted. Of those there
is one I consider the creme de la creme and would always be glad to
work with and would be my first pick - from the candidate side *or*
the client side; there's a second that's quite good and I would
generally use, there are about 1 to 3 more I'd likely work with or
consider working with again, most of the remainder are in the "also
ran" category (pretty mediocre to a bit worse), and about 4 or a bit
more I've got well noted in the plague category. Many of them are
also defunct - or have been absorbed by other companies. It's still
useful to track them nevertheless. Many recruiters will often change
agencies, or you might bump into them again on a company's HR staff
(either as them being an employee of the company, or the company
contracting all their recruitment and HR candidate screening through
that one agency). Some agencies that one thought and hoped were dead
and gone will return from the grave - sometimes with a different name.
And to the extent you can and it's feasible, if you have
good/excellent trusted recruiter you work with, they can also provide
potentially good/excellent critical feedback on your resume. But they
should really only be one such source. Be sure - as I've noted - you
have others also provide critical feedback on your resume, and of
course also do your own best job you can on picking apart and refining
your resume. Remember that the agencies/recruiters are paid by the
client, not you. So while they do want to present your resume in the
best appropriate light, they're also not so interested in polishing up
your resume for you just so you can go use your resume elsewhere
without going through them. And do be fair to them - their time is
valuable. If they're spending their time helping you polish up your
resume, it should be something that is probable to be of significant
benefit to them for them to spend their time on such. Finding a
good/excellent recruiter/agency is about building high quality
long-term relationships. One doesn't want to sour what could be a
good/excellent relationship. And reputations do get known, spread,
and persist (for candidates, agencies/recruiters, etc., as
applicable).
Network, network, network - good advice. Often many of the
best/excellent job leads come via personal/professional contacts,
associations, etc. That doesn't mean exclude other search means, but
certainly cover your bases - and personal networking is certainly
among the more important and useful (and many/most would argue the
most important). Professional and association contacts are also
highly useful (e.g. USENIX/SAGE, probably LOPSA, various user groups,
etc.). E.g. at my most recent prior employer, the person we hired I
found via listing the opening with SAGE, and many of our best
candidates came via that SAGE listing. In 2003/2004 when I was
unemployed, when I did finally get good/excellent offers/leads, the
first three came via personal contacts - one from someone I'd worked
quite directly with before on a particular project, another from
someone else I'd worked with before (who I was referred to by yet
another person I'd worked with that knew they wanted to add someone),
and another excellent lead (and eventual offer) came via contact from
someone I knew (and who knew me) that I met at a (UNIX) user group.
Of course agencies/recruiters, applying directly to companies web
sites or advertisements, etc. can also work very well - at least at
times. E.g. my current employment - great opportunity - found for me
by a recruiter at an agency. And back to network, network, network -
how did I "find" that agency and recruiter? Had a bit of extended
and general conversation with a client side agency rep. I'd met at a
(LINUX) user group - mostly following the user group meeting (three
of us decided to go hang out and chat at a bar for a while following
the user group meeting). That contact (and my follow-up) lead to
candidate side recruiter at that agency, which lead to the excellent
opportunity to which I applied and am now employed. How did I find
the opportunity at my prior employer? At least originally (I was
actually subsequently rehired by them) it was found by my favorite
recruiter (at least around that time was the first time I'd been
working with that recruiter/agency). How did that recruiter/agency
find me? I'd posted my resume on USENET (and *not* in this group,
but in select group(s) covering job(s)/resume(s)/position(s) wanted -
at that time I'd posted it to these groups: ba.jobs.resumes,
misc.jobs.resumes, us.jobs.resumes). That posting also generated
other good/excellent leads (e.g. direct contact from another employer
that I applied to, was interviewed for, and quite seriously
considered). And the employer prior to that? I sent in my resume in
response to a newspaper advertisement. Anyway, ... network, network,
network, ... but do also generally cover your bases. We're also
talking small number statistics for the above, so your numbers will
probably vary, and likely rather to quite significantly.
There are also various more general web sites. E.g. Dice and Monster.
If your skills are quite marketable, experience, etc. good, and in a
"hopping" economy for your skill set, if you put it somewhere like
that, and make it searchable, expect to get hammered by responses
(perhaps about 20% direct, the remainder agencies/recruiters) - and
that amount of response may - or may not - be considered a "good
thing", depending on one's objectives and circumstances. And if the
economy's really sucky, your penultimate agency/recruiter will
eventually get back to you, tell you they just got back from a nice
long vacation, as they'd been far too busy in the several preceding
years to take any significant vacation at all ... and it'll be quite
dead out there, as there will be so many well qualified unemployed
candidates that no employer need practically publicize anything - if
they have an opening, they whisper it to a few employees/managers, and
all of them know many well qualified and unemployed folks, refer them,
and the position is filled; ... again, network, network, network - and
you may actually even hear of such openings when the economy is like
that and you're unemployed.
More on network, network, network - miscellaneous personal
contacts/groups/associations, alumni associations and professional
organizations, trade shows, expositions, conferences, training
events/seminars, etc., etc.
And of course there's the (more) "reactive" stuff - posting of resume
in the "right" places, sending in resume, submitting/applying on/via
company web sites, etc. Actually direct application on company web
site or sending in resume in response to ad *can* be quite effective,
but it's much more likely to be effective if one has networking
contact(s) to help ensure that your submission isn't
dropped/overlooked in the process and/or that it makes it to the
"right" person(s) and with endorsements/recommendations that very
significantly boost one's chances of at least making it through to an
interview.
More random advice:
Specifically tailoring resume to jobs applied to. Many highly
recommend this. It has its advantages and disadvantages.
Pros:
more likely to get through the "filtering" process and land the
interview,
tends to generally set an at least somewhat more favorable impression
so long as the resume is being referenced through the process.
Cons:
It's that much more work/trouble/pain to deal with, accurately track
various versions, etc., and the more distinct versions, the more
chances of making an error on them and potentially not catching it
before it's submitted (presumably one won't have as many opportunities
to obtain critical objective review of these resumes before submitting
them - particularly if there may be a substantial number of
variations. Of course if one never, or almost never makes an error on
a resume, this may not pose that much of a risk).
Also, it can be harder to do custom per-job resumes, if one also has
one's resume hanging out in "public" or fairly accessible location(s).
The greater the extent to which the "public" vs. submitted resume
differer, if the potential employer becomes aware of both, the more
likely it is they may question some of those differences - and the
potentially more awkward it might become to explain away all those
differences.
One can also potentially achieve at least part of the effect of
customized per-job resumes, by writing well crafted, targeted, yet
concise cover letters. Of course that's yet further enhanced if one
also tweaks the resume as appropriate for each job applied to.
Exactly how much (or little) impact cover letters have is also debated
a fair bit - and does depend who's receiving them. Some folks never
read/examine cover letters - they just go straight to the resume
anyway. Others may read (or skim) cover letter before the resume, or
might skip straight to the resume, and may look at the cover letter
after at least glancing over the resume.
The resume isn't everything, so don't spend *too* much time/resource
on it. The primary function of the resume is to get the interview.
Once the interview is achieved, the resume (at least presuming it's
factually accurate) becomes much less unimportant.
Personal web sites, blogs, etc. Employers often will look what one
says, has posted, etc. The Internet also tends to have a *long*
(though sometimes spotty) memory. E.g. if it's ever been out there,
it may potentially still be findable. So, ... if you wouldn't want a
potential employer to see it, it shouldn't go out there where it can
be seen. I can think of at least one poignant example of an otherwise
excellent candidate that learned a hard lesson from that. They were
to the point of being hired (offer already out and I think accepted)
when one of the to-be-coworkers read some less than flattering
blog(-like) comments the person had written about the prospective
co-workers he'd interviewed with. The offer got quite immediately
rescinded.
| |
|
| First, let me thank you for posting such a lengthy, informative post -
your advice is definitely appreciated!
Michael Paoli <michael1cat@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> My advice:
>
> First of all, learn to do it (mostly) yourself. This will serve you
> much better in the long run. Besides, if, within the hiring process,
> a potential employer learns you're not quite capable of writing the
> resume you've submitted, how will that impact their decision process?
> If you haven't already, check out books on resume writing, and
> example resumes, and also books that cover that specifically for
> technical field(s) ...
This is probably the direction I need to go (or just change from a
chronological to a functional one).
> There's also lots of material on the
> Internet about resume writing and such - but beware that there is
> great variation in quality among such materials.
Internet advice is to be taken with a whole salt shaker, I've found (or at
least compared multiple times to other similar items on the net (and in
print)). :-)
> Then take your first major stab at rewriting your resume. Once you've
> "completed" that, now pretend you're a busy, over-worked and short
> staffed hiring technical manager. You've got a pile of - at least -
> 200 resumes stacked in front of you. Today you finally managed to
> allocate yourself 2 hours to work on them - but you'll trim that to a
> bit less than 2 hours if you can, because you have lots of other hot
> stuff you need to handle. In that 2 hours, you're going to go
> through that whole pile of 200, and pick approximately 20 that you
> think are worthy of further consideration. All the rest of them, you
> might file, but in all likelihood. you'll never look at them again.
> You won't have time to look at the resumes again after that for 2
> days, ... after which you'll have 90 minutes to look at your earlier
> top ~20 resume pick, and decide upon about 1/3 of those to line up
> for short (~20 minute) rough cut tech. screening phone
> calls(/"interviews").
The jobhunting system in the USA is *so* broken and horrible to go
through, it's not even funny. Guess it's not any better anywhere
else... Good procedure to try, though!
> Now start getting some critical feedback from others.
Done that with a couple of helpful folks from here (haven't implemented
their suggestions yet, but will do so shortly).
> agencies/recruiters/headhunters - there's certainly no shortage of
> them out there. Unfortunately, there are horrible ones, lots of
> mediocre ones, and relatively few very good to excellent ones. Keep
> track of them - over time you'll learn which ones you actually care
> to, or even very much want to, work with, which ones you're mostly
> pretty neutral about, which ones you don't much care for, ... and
> also those that you want to avoid like the plague.
Another good point, although I've found that relocating can pretty much
render a lot of them invalid (they just don't work outside their
geographic area). Since I want to relocate, most of the recruiters I've
used (and they're just tolerable) don't cover the area I want to go to.
> And to the extent you can and it's feasible, if you have
> good/excellent trusted recruiter you work with, they can also provide
> potentially good/excellent critical feedback on your resume.
Unfortunately, no matter how many recruiters I've worked with, the last
few jobs I've had came from monster, or a company website. So the
recruiters I've used haven't been worthwhile (and they don't know enough
about sysadmin to make any useful suggestions).
> Network, network, network - good advice. Often many of the
> best/excellent job leads come via personal/professional contacts,
> associations, etc.
Yeah, that's a problem for me, though. :-( Just don't have many contacts,
don't belong to any associations, going to relocate, etc. I know it
sounds like I'm putting roadblocks up, but I just haven't been socially
involved in user groups, alumni (went to school in a different state),
etc. I could start, but it wouldn't be enough time to help me in my
current situation.
> How did that recruiter/agency
> find me? I'd posted my resume on USENET (and *not* in this group,
> but in select group(s) covering job(s)/resume(s)/position(s) wanted -
> at that time I'd posted it to these groups: ba.jobs.resumes,
> misc.jobs.resumes, us.jobs.resumes). That posting also generated
> other good/excellent leads (e.g. direct contact from another employer
> that I applied to, was interviewed for, and quite seriously
> considered).
I don't know if I'd want to broadcast my jobhunting to the world in
general via USENET, though...
> There are also various more general web sites. E.g. Dice and Monster.
> If your skills are quite marketable, experience, etc. good, and in a
> "hopping" economy for your skill set, if you put it somewhere like
> that, and make it searchable, expect to get hammered by responses
> (perhaps about 20% direct, the remainder agencies/recruiters) - and
> that amount of response may - or may not - be considered a "good
> thing", depending on one's objectives and circumstances.
Mainly sales-type recruiters that don't really know tech and are just
matching up keywords with resumes, not knowing what they mean - that's
what I usually got.
> Specifically tailoring resume to jobs applied to. Many highly
> recommend this. It has its advantages and disadvantages.
I probably won't go too far this way, if at all. Takes way too much time
for little reward, I'm thinking. Of course, if it gets you a job, it was
worth it, but would you have gotten the job if you sent in your regular
resume? Who knows...
> One can also potentially achieve at least part of the effect of
> customized per-job resumes, by writing well crafted, targeted, yet
> concise cover letters. Of course that's yet further enhanced if one
> also tweaks the resume as appropriate for each job applied to.
That's more likely the direction I'll go.
> Exactly how much (or little) impact cover letters have is also debated
> a fair bit - and does depend who's receiving them. Some folks never
> read/examine cover letters - they just go straight to the resume
> anyway. Others may read (or skim) cover letter before the resume, or
> might skip straight to the resume, and may look at the cover letter
> after at least glancing over the resume.
As I said, the system's broken - the cover letter is/isn't important, it
is/isn't read, who gets the cover letter/resume - HR, hiring mgr,
janitor?, etc. It's just such a mess and disheartening for a jobhunter to
put in so much effort without knowing if *any* of it is doing any good...
> Personal web sites, blogs, etc. Employers often will look what one
> says, has posted, etc. The Internet also tends to have a *long*
> (though sometimes spotty) memory. E.g. if it's ever been out there,
> it may potentially still be findable.
Already aware of that and have taken some precautions, but glad you
mentioned it. Lots of folks think the net's their own personal playground
with no real-life repercussions, but they're stupid. :-)
> I can think of at least one poignant example of an otherwise
> excellent candidate that learned a hard lesson from that. They were
> to the point of being hired (offer already out and I think accepted)
> when one of the to-be-coworkers read some less than flattering
> blog(-like) comments the person had written about the prospective
> co-workers he'd interviewed with. The offer got quite immediately
> rescinded.
What an idiot!
Thanks again for your post, I've saved it and will end up taking at least
some of your advice...
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