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Not STD C is "not C" ? ----WAS: Re: C to Java Byte Code
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| Thomas G. Marshall 2004-10-29, 5:51 pm |
| Alan Morgan coughed up:
....[rip]...
> The statement "i=i++;" invokes undefined behavior. Your compiler
> will very likely behave rationally and give you an answer that you
> might reasonably consider "correct". Don't be fooled. The technical
> definition of "undefined" is "Will give consistent and repeatable
> results until your boss asks for a demo, at which point it starts
> behaving randomly".
(For yucks, the term "undefined behavior" is actually defined in the C
specification, but that is neither here nor there.)
I don't see i=i++ as ever anything useful, but 45° tangental to this
original thread is something that bothers me. There is a *prevailing*
notion that:
If it ain't standard C, it ain't C
which I think is not quite true. This is related to something else I also
think is false:
If it ain't standard C, you should not write in it
I've been digging here and there about this for a while now and am not sure
that there is a /complete/ consensus on this notion, though the majority
seem to agree with the above statement. It's important because there are
many things that cannot be written in standard C that are nonetheless useful
to write in non-std C:
Device Drivers (usually)
malloc()
Anything embedded that needs to tweek memory
mapped registers
This issue was raised to my attention recently when I was educated by many
here on what the standard actually allows. But knowing the standard, IMHO,
isn't the bottom line. Knowing the "usual" rules of C, particularly the
/likely/ behavior of something undefined or platform dependent in the spec,
is, particularly if you're recruiting.
--
"It's easier to be terrified by an enemy you admire."
-Thufir Hawat, Mentat and Master of Assassins to House Atreides
| |
| Programmer Dude 2004-10-29, 5:51 pm |
| Thomas G. Marshall writes:
> There is a *prevailing* notion that:
>
> If it ain't standard C, it ain't C
>
> which I think is not quite true.
Of course not. The only place that "notion" really prevails is in the
comp.lang.c group. And as a number of regulars (or in my case, former
regulars) hang out here, too, we get it here, too.
> This is related to something else I also think is false:
>
> If it ain't standard C, you should not write in it
Right (it's false).
> But knowing the standard, IMHO, isn't the bottom line.
Right. It's the first line! It's somewhat like an artist needing
to know how to paint a face correctly before they start experimenting
with alternate forms and formats. *Knowledgeable* departure from
the standard is the key.
> Knowing the "usual" rules of C, particularly the /likely/ behavior
> of something undefined or platform dependent in the spec, is,
> particularly if you're recruiting.
I don't agree it's the bottom line, but it's an important one, IMO.
| |
| Dik T. Winter 2004-10-29, 8:47 pm |
| In article <Bltgd.6$304.0@trndny06> "Thomas G. Marshall" < tgm2tothe10thpower@replacetextwithnumber
.hotmail.com> writes:
....
> I don't see i=i++ as ever anything useful, but 45° tangental to this
> original thread is something that bothers me. There is a *prevailing*
> notion that:
> If it ain't standard C, it ain't C
> which I think is not quite true.
In this groups it is true. The aim in this group is portable C. If your
programming is platform sepcific you better ask in a newsgroup related to
your platform.
> It's important because there are
> many things that cannot be written in standard C that are nonetheless useful
> to write in non-std C:
>
> Device Drivers (usually)
> malloc()
> Anything embedded that needs to tweek memory
> mapped registers
Indeed, they can not be written in standard C as the code is necesarily
very platform specific. So a newsgroup related to your platform is a
better place to ask.
> This issue was raised to my attention recently when I was educated by many
> here on what the standard actually allows. But knowing the standard, IMHO,
> isn't the bottom line. Knowing the "usual" rules of C, particularly the
> /likely/ behavior of something undefined or platform dependent in the spec,
> is, particularly if you're recruiting.
But what is likely behaviour? How do you define that? The only behaviour
that is likely about "i = i++;" is that it probably will set "i" to either
the value before the statement or to the incremented value. And that is
not very useful information either.
And that is what happens in most cases of undefined behaviour, it can do
one thing or something else, and most likely both can occur on different
platforms, or sometimes on the same platform with different compilers,
or sometimes on the same platform with different generations of the same
compiler.
I once got a program that crashed reliably on the platform where I wished
to use it. The culprit was a snippet of code that assumed that pointers
to character were plain long ints. So it contained the following code:
char *c, *c1;
c = malloc(sizeof(double) * 2);
/* get a double aligned pointer in the array */
c1 = (char *)((long int)(c + sizeof(double) - 1) & ~(sizeof(double) - 1));
the crash occurred when c1 was used. Not only was the code misguided
(malloc returns a pointer suitably aligned), it was also totally wrong
on that platform, because c1 pointed to c[7], which was not suitably
aligned.
--
dik t. winter, cwi, kruislaan 413, 1098 sj amsterdam, nederland, +31205924131
home: bovenover 215, 1025 jn amsterdam, nederland; http://www.cwi.nl/~dik/
| |
| Jerry Coffin 2004-10-29, 8:47 pm |
| "Thomas G. Marshall" < tgm2tothe10thpower@replacetextwithnumber
.hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<Bltgd.6$304.0@trndny06>...
[ ... ]
> There is a *prevailing* notion that:
>
> If it ain't standard C, it ain't C
This is more than a mere notion: it's a tautology, since C is defined
by the standard.
> which I think is not quite true. This is related to something else I also
> think is false:
>
> If it ain't standard C, you should not write in it
I've never gotten any impression of anybody having that idea at all.
There is, however, an idea that could easily be mistaken for it:
If it ain't C, it ain't topical in comp.lang.c, and if it ain't C++ it
ain't topical in comp.lang.c++. Since these languages are defined by
standards, "C" and "standard C" are synonymous. While I'm not a
regular participant in comp.unix.programming, I'd imagine it's run
along more or less similar lines. Just to give a concrete example,
consider MacOS 9.1 -- opinions of its quality, goodness,
acceptability, etc., undoubtedly vary widely, but regardless of
anybody's opinion about its quality, there seems little room for doubt
that it's off-topic in comp.unix.programmer.
In any of the above cases, when somebody's pointing out that the
subject is off-topic, there's a pretty fair chance that the original
poster will be insulted to some degree -- even if it's done politely
(which, in fairness, it often isn't).
> I've been digging here and there about this for a while now and am not sure
> that there is a /complete/ consensus on this notion, though the majority
> seem to agree with the above statement. It's important because there are
> many things that cannot be written in standard C that are nonetheless useful
> to write in non-std C:
>
> Device Drivers (usually)
> malloc()
> Anything embedded that needs to tweek memory
> mapped registers
Saying that something is written in "standard C" is a difficult term
to pin down. Most of these can be written in C that is "conforming",
but not "strictly conforming". Realistically, nearly _all_ useful C
code falls somewhere between those two extremes.
I think the consensus on c.l.c and c.l.c++ is that there's a line
somewhere between those two that's sometimes been (unofficially)
titled "strongly conforming" C -- basically, code that should run on
any reasonable implementation of C, and should produce similar results
on all of them.
The fact is, however, that C and C++ are both used in thousands of
situations (especially if you include non-standard dialects) and
without a pretty strict definition of what's topical and what's not,
the most informative participants would almost inevitably leave. In a
newsgroup that attracts less attention, it's much easier to define the
subject much more broadly, and to allow much more chatting that's only
marginally topical at best.
> This issue was raised to my attention recently when I was educated by many
> here on what the standard actually allows. But knowing the standard, IMHO,
> isn't the bottom line. Knowing the "usual" rules of C, particularly the
> /likely/ behavior of something undefined or platform dependent in the spec,
> is, particularly if you're recruiting.
I think you're making a bit of a mistake between that the standard
_allows_ (which is quite broad) and what the standard says always has
defined behavior (which is considerably narrower). I don't know of
anybody who's claimed that knowing the standard is all there is --
quite the contrary I think most of the regulars probably consider
problem solving, knowledge of algorithms, style, etc. quite important
-- but they also realize that something that's off-topic is still
off-topic, regardless of how interesting it might be.
--
Later,
Jerry.
The universe is a figment of its own imagination.
| |
| Thomas G. Marshall 2004-10-30, 5:49 pm |
| Dik T. Winter coughed up:
> In article <Bltgd.6$304.0@trndny06> "Thomas G. Marshall"
> < tgm2tothe10thpower@replacetextwithnumber
.hotmail.com> writes: ...
> this > original thread is something that bothers me. There is a
> *prevailing* > notion that:
>
> In this groups it is true. The aim in this group is portable C. If
> your
> programming is platform sepcific you better ask in a newsgroup
> related to
> your platform.
I'm not asking anything, I'm making an observation. I need no questions
answered.
Are you sure about the aim in the comp.lang.c group being "portable C"? I
don't see that as the charter at all. (I apologize for the huge
crosspost---it was inherited, and perhaps I should have narrowed it away
from C++). Here is what the official list of big eight newsgroups says, as
posted continually in news.announce.newsgroups:
comp.lang.c Discussion about C
That list is as "official" as it gets.
>
> there are > many things that cannot be written in standard C that
> are nonetheless useful > to write in non-std C:
>
> Indeed, they can not be written in standard C as the code is
> necesarily
> very platform specific. So a newsgroup related to your platform is a
> better place to ask.
>
[your newsreader munged the indents here, I'll try to fix:]
>
> But what is likely behaviour? How do you define that?
You *DON'T* define it. That's the whole point! But you /do/ need to
understand it. That's /my/ point.
> The only
> behaviour
> that is likely about "i = i++;"
Wrong example to use---I see no use for it.
Here is something that you can gauge "likely behavior", for example on a
byte addressable 32 bit sparcstation 1:
long *a = 0; // C99: not platform independent null pointer
a++; // C99: not allowed to increment null
pointer
printf ("%d\n", a); // C99: not using %p
Likely output on byte addressable, 32 bit data, 32 bit instruction,
machines:
4
Portable or not, it was what I would find on nearly all my workstations back
when I was porting a postscript interpreter to a myriad of them as head of
the "unix department" (three people  lol).
And here is "likely behavior:"
*((long*)0xc0450000) = 0; // fill specific location with 0.
(ignoring of course vm issues)
Of course it's platform specific, but it's still important to understand.
> is that it probably will set "i" to
> either
> the value before the statement or to the incremented value. And that
> is
> not very useful information either.
Like I said in my OP, i=i++ is not IMO useful, so take that off the table.
....[rip]...
--
Framsticks. 3D Artificial Life evolution. You can see the creatures
that evolve and how they interact, hunt, swim, etc. (Unaffiliated with
me). http://www.frams.alife.pl/
| |
| Thomas G. Marshall 2004-10-30, 5:49 pm |
| Jerry Coffin coughed up:
> "Thomas G. Marshall"
> < tgm2tothe10thpower@replacetextwithnumber
.hotmail.com> wrote in
> message news:<Bltgd.6$304.0@trndny06>...
>
> [ ... ]
>
>
> This is more than a mere notion: it's a tautology, since C is defined
> by the standard.
>
>
> I've never gotten any impression of anybody having that idea at all.
> There is, however, an idea that could easily be mistaken for it:
>
> If it ain't C, it ain't topical in comp.lang.c, and if it ain't C++ it
> ain't topical in comp.lang.c++. Since these languages are defined by
> standards, "C" and "standard C" are synonymous. While I'm not a
> regular participant in comp.unix.programming, I'd imagine it's run
> along more or less similar lines. Just to give a concrete example,
> consider MacOS 9.1 -- opinions of its quality, goodness,
> acceptability, etc., undoubtedly vary widely, but regardless of
> anybody's opinion about its quality, there seems little room for doubt
> that it's off-topic in comp.unix.programmer.
I apologize, but I was thinking specifically of unix malloc() when I wrote
this. I more or less inherited the crossposting, but should have narrowed
it.
> In any of the above cases, when somebody's pointing out that the
> subject is off-topic, there's a pretty fair chance that the original
> poster will be insulted to some degree -- even if it's done politely
> (which, in fairness, it often isn't).
>
>
> Saying that something is written in "standard C" is a difficult term
> to pin down. Most of these can be written in C that is "conforming",
> but not "strictly conforming". Realistically, nearly _all_ useful C
> code falls somewhere between those two extremes.
Right, which (IMO) means that your statement:
YOU:
Since these languages are defined by standards,
"C" and "standard C" are synonymous.
Is not true (?). Why is this /not merely/ a symantic argument? Because
being able (IMHO) to understand non-STD likely behavior is critical: When I
was interviewing for C programmers, I *really* needed to hear their
discussions about such things. (This is a larger topic I'll not descend
into, but interviews are not about right nor wrong answers, they are about
the ensuing discussions).
> I think the consensus on c.l.c and c.l.c++ is that there's a line
> somewhere between those two that's sometimes been (unofficially)
> titled "strongly conforming" C -- basically, code that should run on
> any reasonable implementation of C, and should produce similar results
> on all of them.
>
> The fact is, however, that C and C++ are both used in thousands of
> situations (especially if you include non-standard dialects) and
> without a pretty strict definition of what's topical and what's not,
> the most informative participants would almost inevitably leave. In a
> newsgroup that attracts less attention, it's much easier to define the
> subject much more broadly, and to allow much more chatting that's only
> marginally topical at best.
>
>
> I think you're making a bit of a mistake between that the standard
> _allows_ (which is quite broad) and what the standard says always has
> defined behavior (which is considerably narrower). I don't know of
> anybody who's claimed that knowing the standard is all there is --
I got considerable flak for suggesting otherwise before. I didn't fully
understand what the latest standards actually said, (I was a C programmer
back when Things Were Rotten), and was educated to that extent, but it was
made clear that asking interviewees questions regarding non-conforming C
constructs was somehow, well, /wrong/.
It's that notion I was hoping to address here.
> quite the contrary I think most of the regulars probably consider
> problem solving, knowledge of algorithms, style, etc. quite important
> -- but they also realize that something that's off-topic is still
> off-topic, regardless of how interesting it might be.
I would assume that this is on-topic for:
comp.lang.c
comp.programming
After this post, I'll confine it to those two, but I'm afraid that the cat
is out of the bag.
--
Framsticks. 3D Artificial Life evolution. You can see the creatures
that evolve and how they interact, hunt, swim, etc. (Unaffiliated with
me). http://www.frams.alife.pl/
| |
| Dik T. Winter 2004-10-30, 8:46 pm |
| In article <wAPgd.512$fw2.217@trndny01> "Thomas G. Marshall" < tgm2tothe10thpower@replacetextwithnumber
.hotmail.com> writes:
> Dik T. Winter coughed up:
....
Refixing the bad quotes:
>
> I'm not asking anything, I'm making an observation. I need no questions
> answered.
But your observation was about questions asked.
> Are you sure about the aim in the comp.lang.c group being "portable C"? I
> don't see that as the charter at all. (I apologize for the huge
> crosspost---it was inherited, and perhaps I should have narrowed it away
> from C++). Here is what the official list of big eight newsgroups says, as
> posted continually in news.announce.newsgroups:
>
> comp.lang.c Discussion about C
>
> That list is as "official" as it gets.
Yes. comp.lang.c does not have a charter. It did not have a charter when
it was called news.lang.c either. It never has had a charter.
>
> [your newsreader munged the indents here, I'll try to fix:]
My newsreader munges nothing. It inserts my quotation sequence reliably
before every line I quote. When I see lines grow to long I readjust those
lines to suitable length, shifting text from one line to the next. It
appears that your newsreader thinks it is smart enough to reformat
quotations, but isn't. My newsreader does not think it is as smart as
that, so it does not reformat.
>
> You *DON'T* define it. That's the whole point! But you /do/ need to
> understand it. That's /my/ point.
But I do not understand what likely behaviour is. That is *my* point.
> Here is something that you can gauge "likely behavior", for example on a
> byte addressable 32 bit sparcstation 1:
>
> long *a = 0; // C99: not platform independent null pointer
> a++; // C99: not allowed to increment null
> pointer
> printf ("%d\n", a); // C99: not using %p
> Likely output on byte addressable, 32 bit data, 32 bit instruction,
> machines:
> 4
> Portable or not, it was what I would find on nearly all my workstations back
> when I was porting a postscript interpreter to a myriad of them as head of
> the "unix department" (three people lol).
Perhaps. But it is indeed not portable. I have worked on two machines,
one of them byte addressable, 32 bit data, 32 bit instruction, where the
output would *not* be 4. On one of them the output would be "1" (while
sizeof(long) == 8), on the other it would be "2" (with sizeof(long) == 4).
Try porting, say, the Bourne shell to such machines.
> And here is "likely behavior:"
> *((long*)0xc0450000) = 0; // fill specific location with 0.
> (ignoring of course vm issues)
> Of course it's platform specific, but it's still important to understand.
I think the intent is to set "sizeof(long)" chars to 0. There are machines
where that will set "sizeof(long) * 2" chars to 0. There is a large number
of compilers that will flag it as an error. And indeed, it is not allowed
in standard C, for a good reason. Also it may happen that when you
execute that statement on a byte addressable, 32 bit machine, after that
statement some library functions will fail to work (there are machines where
shared libraries are mapped to high addresses). So, what is the purpose of
understanding that statement?
It is the usage of "reliable behaviour" that makes so many programs
non-portable to other systems, and that will get you in the end.
--
dik t. winter, cwi, kruislaan 413, 1098 sj amsterdam, nederland, +31205924131
home: bovenover 215, 1025 jn amsterdam, nederland; http://www.cwi.nl/~dik/
| |
| Alfred Z. Newmane 2004-10-31, 5:49 pm |
| Dik T. Winter wrote:
> In article <wAPgd.512$fw2.217@trndny01> "Thomas G. Marshall"
> < tgm2tothe10thpower@replacetextwithnumber
.hotmail.com> writes: > Dik
> T. Winter coughed up: ...
> Refixing the bad quotes:
Could you please not put any white space /before/ the quote character
">"
Like this:
> The is quoted text.
Putting white space, like:
> quoted text with whitespace before the quote token.
interfears with quote level color-coders and "quoted text wrap fixers."
I hope you can fix it. If you do not know how, post what reader you are
using, as your headers don't show, and maybe some of us can help.
| |
| Thomas G. Marshall 2004-10-31, 5:49 pm |
| Alfred Z. Newmane coughed up:
> Dik T. Winter wrote:
>
> Could you please not put any white space /before/ the quote character
> ">"
....[rip]...
IS THAT WHAT'S BEEN GOING ON????????????????
Dik T. Winter, if it's ok with you, *please* change that. The *standard* is
to quote a line by placing a ">" at the very beginning of the line.
--
Everythinginlifeisrealative. Apingpongballseemssmalluntilsomeoneramsi
tupyourn
ose.
| |
| Floyd L. Davidson 2004-10-31, 5:49 pm |
| "Thomas G. Marshall" < tgm2tothe10thpower@replacetextwithnumber
.hotmail.com> wrote:
>Alfred Z. Newmane coughed up:
>
>...[rip]...
>
>IS THAT WHAT'S BEEN GOING ON????????????????
>
>
>
>Dik T. Winter, if it's ok with you, *please* change that. The *standard* is
>to quote a line by placing a ">" at the very beginning of the line.
The *standard* is that whatever form of reformatting the
newsreader does, it *won't* do it to a line that has leading
white space. Some would of course argue that *no* reformatting
should ever be done by the newsreader! But few would argue that
a newsreader should ever reformat lines with leading white
space. That allows tables, ascii drawings, and other format
specific text in an article. It is clearly very useful.
All that Dik is doing is using the standard method of telling
the newsreader that *he* is formatting his paragraphs the way he
wants the reader to see them, not the way some fool programmer
decided that a newsreader should format them. Given the
newsgroups and the content of his articles (technical newsgroups
about programming, and the articles contained quoted snippets of
program source code which definitely should *not* be
reformatted), it seems like a *very* sharp decision on his part
to notice that he could insure that the quoted text in his
response would indeed still be readable.
If it didn't turn out that way, then *your* newsreader is either
misconfigured or broken.
--
FloydL. Davidson <http://web.newsguy.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@barrow.com
| |
| Alfred Z. Newmane 2004-10-31, 5:49 pm |
| Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
> "Thomas G. Marshall"
> < tgm2tothe10thpower@replacetextwithnumber
.hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> The *standard* is that whatever form of reformatting the
> newsreader does, it *won't* do it to a line that has leading
> white space. Some would of course argue that *no* reformatting
> should ever be done by the newsreader! But few would argue that
> a newsreader should ever reformat lines with leading white
> space. That allows tables, ascii drawings, and other format
> specific text in an article. It is clearly very useful.
>
> All that Dik is doing is using the standard method of telling
> the newsreader that *he* is formatting his paragraphs the way he
> wants the reader to see them, not the way some fool programmer
> decided that a newsreader should format them. Given the
> newsgroups and the content of his articles (technical newsgroups
> about programming, and the articles contained quoted snippets of
> program source code which definitely should *not* be
> reformatted), it seems like a *very* sharp decision on his part
> to notice that he could insure that the quoted text in his
> response would indeed still be readable.
>
> If it didn't turn out that way, then *your* newsreader is either
> misconfigured or broken.
I don't reformat quoted text, I only fix word wrap snafus, where you
have full line, followed by another line with 1 or 2 words, then another
full line:
> quoted text i na full line blah blah blah
> which is
> screwy la la la la la
This usuaully happens after a coupel levels of quoting, or when the
person being quoted made their lines too long to begin with, which is
more the case than the former.
The point here, is that 99.9% of UseNet uses >, or |, or soem other
quote character, /without/ and leading white space, and this is how most
quote-level color-coding and broken-word-wrap fixers work, liek for what
I described above, which only serve on the client end, to make the text
mor readable.
I my self use OE Quote Fix, which does wonders for MS's news reader, OE.
| |
| Alfred Z. Newmane 2004-10-31, 5:49 pm |
| Thomas G. Marshall wrote:[vbcol=seagreen]
> Dik T. Winter coughed up:
Mr Dik Winter, this is the result of white spae before the quote token.
This serves as an exellent example of what can happen, and why we are
asking you to fix this :-)
| |
| Floyd L. Davidson 2004-10-31, 5:49 pm |
| "Alfred Z. Newmane" <a.newmane.remove@eastcoastcz.com> wrote:
>Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
>
>I don't reformat quoted text, I only fix word wrap snafus, where you
>have full line, followed by another line with 1 or 2 words, then another
>full line:
I've seen where you attempted to do that, and failed miserably.
Regardless, that *is* reformatting! (And if you do it right, it
isn't bad at all...)
Heh... you want to see something done right?
There is your example text, properly reformatted at 64 columns.
Wanna see something even more fun, here it is a 40 columns,
[vbcol=seagreen]
Now, what I did to do that was fairly easy, since I do use just
about the best newsreader in existence. I copied the original
text (you can see it below) and the first reformat was simply
done by typing two keys, 'ESC' and 'q'. The second required
that I provide an argument to tell it not to use the default 64
columns, so it was "ESC 4 0 ESC q", or 5 keystrokes.
Notice that when I did the cut and paste I left spaces in front
of each line so that your newsreader won't reformat them, and
that when I did a reformat it worked quite well with the white
space prefix. That's the way it works if you have the proper
tools.
[vbcol=seagreen]
>
>This usuaully happens after a coupel levels of quoting, or when the
>person being quoted made their lines too long to begin with, which is
>more the case than the former.
I see that you format your lines at 70 columns. You'll notice
that I use 64. Sometimes I consider making my lines default to
something even shorter...
>The point here, is that 99.9% of UseNet uses >, or |, or soem other
The point you have *missed* is that 99.9% of all Usenet readers
do the appropriate thing with what Dik T. Winters is posting.
The fact that you use one of if not the *worst* newsreaders
available, and apparently both have it misconfigured and don't
understand what it is or is not doing, has no effect on the
correctness of what Dik posted.
>quote character, /without/ and leading white space, and this is how most
>quote-level color-coding and broken-word-wrap fixers work, liek for what
>I described above, which only serve on the client end, to make the text
>mor readable.
>
>I my self use OE Quote Fix, which does wonders for MS's news reader, OE.
See above. Why not get a better newsreader?
--
FloydL. Davidson <http://web.newsguy.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@barrow.com
| |
| Floyd L. Davidson 2004-10-31, 5:49 pm |
|
"Alfred Z. Newmane" <a.newmane.remove@eastcoastcz.com> wrote:
>Thomas G. Marshall wrote:
>
>Mr Dik Winter, this is the result of white spae before the quote token.
>This serves as an exellent example of what can happen, and why we are
>asking you to fix this :-)
I had my newsreader reformat Dik's article and it came out
looking just fine (see below). If OE won't do that, get a
better newsreader!
"Dik T. Winter" <Dik.Winter@cwi.nl> wrote:
>In article <Bltgd.6$304.0@trndny06> "Thomas G. Marshall"
>< tgm2tothe10thpower@replacetextwithnumber
.hotmail.com> writes:
>...
Indeed, below is what it looked like *without* reformatting.
Other than the long attribute line, the text ends up at 74
columns... which hardly seems to need reformatting! *Your*
text ends up at 72 columns, should I reformat that too???
"Dik T. Winter" <Dik.Winter@cwi.nl> wrote:[vbcol=seagreen]
>In article <Bltgd.6$304.0@trndny06> "Thomas G. Marshall" < tgm2tothe10thpower@replacetextwithnumber
.hotmail.com> writes:
>...
>
>In this groups it is true. The aim in this group is portable C. If your
>programming is platform sepcific you better ask in a newsgroup related to
>your platform.
--
FloydL. Davidson <http://web.newsguy.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@barrow.com
| |
| Alfred Z. Newmane 2004-10-31, 5:49 pm |
| X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de KFb0I0I4wCWQqQoxPtEueAmWofW5l0HMplrRLSyI
cJbcEHCh7h
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409
Xref: number1.nntp.dca.giganews.com comp.lang.c:614278 comp.lang.c++:721238 comp.unix.programmer:151504 comp.programming:200799
Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
> "Alfred Z. Newmane" <a.newmane.remove@eastcoastcz.com> wrote:
>
> I've seen where you attempted to do that, and failed miserably.
> Regardless, that *is* reformatting! (And if you do it right, it
> isn't bad at all...)
>
> Heh... you want to see something done right?
>
>
> There is your example text, properly reformatted at 64 columns.
> Wanna see something even more fun, here it is a 40 columns,
>
>
> Now, what I did to do that was fairly easy, since I do use just
> about the best newsreader in existence. I copied the original
> text (you can see it below) and the first reformat was simply
> done by typing two keys, 'ESC' and 'q'. The second required
> that I provide an argument to tell it not to use the default 64
> columns, so it was "ESC 4 0 ESC q", or 5 keystrokes.
>
> Notice that when I did the cut and paste I left spaces in front
> of each line so that your newsreader won't reformat them, and
> that when I did a reformat it worked quite well with the white
> space prefix. That's the way it works if you have the proper
> tools.
>
>
> I see that you format your lines at 70 columns. You'll notice
> that I use 64. Sometimes I consider making my lines default to
> something even shorter...
Ok I get your point. What I meant was I don't use HTML, where one can
muck with the fotns, styles, extra.
Fixing quoting for readability sake should not be a problem.
Nor should asking someone to fix how thye quote text.
>
> The point you have *missed* is that 99.9% of all Usenet readers
> do the appropriate thing with what Dik T. Winters is posting.
>
> The fact that you use one of if not the *worst* newsreaders
> available, and apparently both have it misconfigured and don't
> understand what it is or is not doing, has no effect on the
> correctness of what Dik posted.
It may nto be the best news reader, but I'd hardly call it the worst. I
don't think you've seen Netscape/Mozilla Messenger (the one that would
come with NS4 and mozilla equivalent at least.)
OE is actually a pretty solid news reader, if one knows how to use it
right. OEQuoteFix fixes the quoting/wrapping problems it has, which has
always been the biggest problem, it also color-codes quoted text, which
is also a godsend. Through the ability to sort Watched threads /AND/
still sort by Date, I'd say it's a decent reader, when used with
OEQuoteFix.
If you don't want to use it, fine. We all use what we are comfortable
with.
(That said, if you know of a better news reader that can do what I
mentioned, I'll be open & happy to try something new.)
| |
| Alfred Z. Newmane 2004-10-31, 5:49 pm |
| X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de dAH3e4YJPIa1hpNpxBp60A5cipq++526pTWz8HzY
UQNk+N8NcQ
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409
Xref: number1.nntp.dca.giganews.com comp.lang.c:614280 comp.lang.c++:721239 comp.unix.programmer:151505 comp.programming:200801
Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
[...]
>
> The point you have *missed* is that 99.9% of all Usenet readers
> do the appropriate thing with what Dik T. Winters is posting.
I have to respectifully disagree. Most news readers that do some sort of
color coding and/or lien wrap fixing wont treat quoted text with leading
quotespace /before/ the quote char as quote, but as local text. Hence
the request I and others have made.
| |
| Randy Howard 2004-10-31, 5:49 pm |
| Organization: Global Persiflage Removal Services, Inc.
X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60
Lines: 11
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 22:55:26 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: 4.13.100.185
X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net
X-Trace: trnddc08 1099263326 4.13.100.185 (Sun, 31 Oct 2004 17:55:26 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 17:55:26 EST
Xref: number1.nntp.dca.giganews.com comp.lang.c:614282 comp.lang.c++:721240 comp.unix.programmer:151506 comp.programming:200802
Floyd,
Sorry for the NMI in the middle of this otherwise interesting
newsreader war, but what is the correct pronunciation of
"Ukpeagvik"??
--
Randy Howard (2reply remove FOOBAR)
| |
| Alfred Z. Newmane 2004-10-31, 5:49 pm |
| Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
> "Alfred Z. Newmane" <a.newmane.remove@eastcoastcz.com> wrote:
>
> I had my newsreader reformat Dik's article and it came out
> looking just fine (see below). If OE won't do that, get a
> better newsreader!
I must onec again respectfully disagree; it has long been accepted on
UseNet to use a 72 column, starting with the console/terminal based
readers.
The text after "Dik T. Winter coughed up:" is in fact Thomas's quoting
of Dik, which got horribly miss wrapped, mainly because of the white
space before his quote char. Why should everyone change the way thing
have bene done the past decade anda half because one person decides to
diverge from that accepted norm?
| |
| Floyd L. Davidson 2004-10-31, 5:49 pm |
| Randy Howard <randyhoward@FOOverizonBAR.net> wrote:
>Floyd,
>
>Sorry for the NMI in the middle of this otherwise interesting
>newsreader war, but what is the correct pronunciation of
>"Ukpeagvik"??
Oh, probably you'd be best understood if you say it
B a r r o w !
However, youk'-pee-agg-vik is probably as close as I can come to
right. The emphasis is on the first 'k'. I'm not sure about
that first syllable either, and "ook" or "you-uk" is what I
hear, but my ears are not good and I know that I don't hear the
subtle differences in many words.
There are other spellings too. Utqiagvik and Ukpiagvik are also
commonly seen.
At one time there was another village, Nuwuk, right out on Point
Barrow, but it hasn't been occupied since the 1930's or so.
--
FloydL. Davidson <http://web.newsguy.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@barrow.com
| |
| Floyd L. Davidson 2004-10-31, 5:49 pm |
| "Alfred Z. Newmane" <a.newmane.remove@eastcoastcz.com> wrote:
>Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
>
>I must onec again respectfully disagree; it has long been accepted on
>UseNet to use a 72 column, starting with the console/terminal based
>readers.
The "accepted" thing is simply don't make the line longer than
80. Everybody and their brother has a different idea of exactly
how much less than 80 is acceptable.
>The text after "Dik T. Winter coughed up:" is in fact Thomas's quoting
>of Dik, which got horribly miss wrapped, mainly because of the white
>space before his quote char.
It got messed up *only* because someone attempted to reformat it
with a program unable to do it properly. 1) the text should
*not* be reformatted automatically, because it has leading white
space, 2) the text should not be manually reformatted with a
program that cannot correctly handle leading white space.
And *clearly* appropriate software exists, as I demonstrated to
you exactly how nicely it is done by Gnus.
>Why should everyone change the way thing
>have bene done the past decade anda half because one person decides to
>diverge from that accepted norm?
Dik was *very astute* in placing the white space as he did,
given that the text contained a snipped of source code that
would be mangled by any reformatting.
The fact that you 1) don't know that Usenet has existed for 25
years now, and 2) don't know what the appropriate effect of
leading white space is, still won't make OE anything other than
a bit of trash that you should replace.
--
FloydL. Davidson <http://web.newsguy.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@barrow.com
| |
| Dik T. Winter 2004-10-31, 8:46 pm |
| In article <2ukitfF2b3abtU1@uni-berlin.de> "Alfred Z. Newmane" <a.newmane.remove@eastcoastcz.com> writes:
> Dik T. Winter wrote:
>
> Could you please not put any white space /before/ the quote character
> ">"
You know. I do it on purpose. You are the third person complaining in the
about 20 years I am posting on Usenet.
> Putting white space, like:
> interfears with quote level color-coders and "quoted text wrap fixers."
But it makes quotations clearer for those not using quote level color-codes.
> I hope you can fix it. If you do not know how, post what reader you are
> using, as your headers don't show, and maybe some of us can help.
I know how to change it, and my newsreader is rn, thank you.
--
dik t. winter, cwi, kruislaan 413, 1098 sj amsterdam, nederland, +31205924131
home: bovenover 215, 1025 jn amsterdam, nederland; http://www.cwi.nl/~dik/
| |
| Floyd L. Davidson 2004-10-31, 8:46 pm |
| "Alfred Z. Newmane" <a.newmane.remove@eastcoastcz.com> wrote:
>Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
>
>It may nto be the best news reader, but I'd hardly call it the worst. I
>don't think you've seen Netscape/Mozilla Messenger (the one that would
>come with NS4 and mozilla equivalent at least.)
That won't make OE any better, but you do have a point that it
may not be the worst. But... what I said was "one of if not
the"... ;-) (There are several that actually are worse, to the
point of being simply unusable in any reasonable fashion.)
>OE is actually a pretty solid news reader, if one knows how to use it
Cough. giggle. choke. laugh. Barrrfffffff!
(Now just look at the mess on my keyboard! I'm not worried
about how Dik quotes text, but I sure wish you wouldn't say
things like *that*.)
>right. OEQuoteFix fixes the quoting/wrapping problems it has, which has
>always been the biggest problem, it also color-codes quoted text, which
>is also a godsend. Through the ability to sort Watched threads /AND/
>still sort by Date, I'd say it's a decent reader, when used with
>OEQuoteFix.
>
>If you don't want to use it, fine. We all use what we are comfortable
>with.
I'm not sure what "Watched threads" do in OE, but as one example,
Gnus (which is an eLisp package for news and email that runs
under either Emacs or XEmacs) does all of your other
requirements, plus a great deal more. And it comes with its own
little editor too. ;-)
>(That said, if you know of a better news reader that can do what I
>mentioned, I'll be open & happy to try something new.)
I think most folks that use Microsoft systems recommend Forte
Agent, though I haven't kept up on that for a long time. There
is a free version and a commercial (greatly enhanced) version
too. Somebody who uses an MS platform can give you better
advice on that.
--
FloydL. Davidson <http://web.newsguy.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@barrow.com
| |
| Dik T. Winter 2004-10-31, 8:46 pm |
| In article <hcbhd.842$o52.240@trndny03> "Thomas G. Marshall" < tgm2tothe10thpower@replacetextwithnumber
.hotmail.com> writes:
....
> Dik T. Winter, if it's ok with you, *please* change that. The *standard* is
> to quote a line by placing a ">" at the very beginning of the line.
What standard?
--
dik t. winter, cwi, kruislaan 413, 1098 sj amsterdam, nederland, +31205924131
home: bovenover 215, 1025 jn amsterdam, nederland; http://www.cwi.nl/~dik/
| |
| Dik T. Winter 2004-10-31, 8:46 pm |
| In article <2ul0ehF2aqbo1U1@uni-berlin.de> "Alfred Z. Newmane" <a.newmane.remove@eastcoastcz.com> writes:
....
> I don't reformat quoted text, I only fix word wrap snafus, where you
> have full line, followed by another line with 1 or 2 words, then another
> full line:
I generally reformat text I quoted to remain in my 80 character window.
Including all quote characters that are needed to make it a full textual
quote with reasonably filled lines. (Yes, I say 80, but in general I
keep it quite a bit below that figure.)
>
> This usuaully happens after a coupel levels of quoting, or when the
> person being quoted made their lines too long to begin with, which is
> more the case than the former.
This generally happens when a newsreader tries to reformat quotes without
having the faintest idea.
> The point here, is that 99.9% of UseNet uses >, or |, or soem other
> quote character, /without/ and leading white space, and this is how most
> quote-level color-coding and broken-word-wrap fixers work, liek for what
> I described above, which only serve on the client end, to make the text
> mor readable.
My point is that (with my non-colour coded newsreader) I find quotes
flushed to the left quite unreadable, and unseparable from the actual
new text.
--
dik t. winter, cwi, kruislaan 413, 1098 sj amsterdam, nederland, +31205924131
home: bovenover 215, 1025 jn amsterdam, nederland; http://www.cwi.nl/~dik/
| |
| Dik T. Winter 2004-10-31, 8:46 pm |
| In article <2ul0kdF2aer25U1@uni-berlin.de> "Alfred Z. Newmane" <a.newmane.remove@eastcoastcz.com> writes:
> Thomas G. Marshall wrote:
>
> Mr Dik Winter, this is the result of white spae before the quote token.
> This serves as an exellent example of what can happen, and why we are
> asking you to fix this :-)
My newsreader is a bit more intelligent. I have instructed it to insert
" > " before quotations. But if the quoted text already starts with a
space it will only insert " >".
--
dik t. winter, cwi, kruislaan 413, 1098 sj amsterdam, nederland, +31205924131
home: bovenover 215, 1025 jn amsterdam, nederland; http://www.cwi.nl/~dik/
| |
| Floyd L. Davidson 2004-10-31, 8:46 pm |
| "Dik T. Winter" <Dik.Winter@cwi.nl> wrote:
>In article <2ul0ehF2aqbo1U1@uni-berlin.de> "Alfred Z. Newmane" <a.newmane.remove@eastcoastcz.com> writes:
>
>
>My point is that (with my non-colour coded newsreader) I find quotes
>flushed to the left quite unreadable, and unseparable from the actual
>new text.
I had to look twice to even figure out what they were
complaining about. Gnus does "quote-level color-coding", and it
works just as expected... which is to say quite correctly with
your articles as well as with others.
--
FloydL. Davidson <http://web.newsguy.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@barrow.com
| |
| Nick Landsberg 2004-10-31, 8:46 pm |
| Dik T. Winter wrote:
[ All Snipped ]
Points well taken Dik.
I just wonder. Why are some folks so anal retentive that
they care more about the format of the post than
the content and have to make a big deal of it
and use up bandwidth to complain about it?
It adds nothing to the technical discussion.
NPL
--
"It is impossible to make anything foolproof
because fools are so ingenious"
- A. Bloch
| |
| Thomas G. Marshall 2004-11-01, 2:47 am |
| "Dik T. Winter" <Dik.Winter@cwi.nl> wrote in message
news:I6H6L9.EEM@cwi.nl...
> In article <2ukitfF2b3abtU1@uni-berlin.de> "Alfred Z. Newmane"
<a.newmane.remove@eastcoastcz.com> writes:
>
> You know. I do it on purpose. You are the third person complaining in
the
> about 20 years I am posting on Usenet.
OE_QuoteFix didn't exist back that far.
Well, let me put it a slightly different way:
1. OE is enormously common.
2. More and more OE folks are using OE_QuoteFix
3. OE_QuoteFix does not regard {space}{reply marker}
as part of a reply.
So you're going to be dedicatedly producing posts that are hard to reply to
for a rather large number of people.
....[rip]...
--
It'salwaysbeenmygoalinlifetocreateasigna
turethatendedwiththeword"blarphoogy"
..
| |
| Alfred Z. Newmane 2004-11-01, 2:47 am |
| Thomas G. Marshall wrote:
> Floyd L. Davidson coughed up:
>
> ...[rip]...
>
>
> You've tried them all, have you?
>
> And that number isn't weighted by the number of folks actually using
> them. I'm guessing that the number of folks using OE with OE_QuoteFix
> is very large.
>
> And this is the first time I've ever seen this issue before, and I've
> been in usenet for a long time. So Dik T. Winters' style post is
> certainly not a common occurrence.
And as I was trying to point out, it's not common for very good reasons.
| |
| Alfred Z. Newmane 2004-11-01, 2:47 am |
| Thomas G. Marshall wrote:
> "Dik T. Winter" <Dik.Winter@cwi.nl> wrote in message
> news:I6H6L9.EEM@cwi.nl...
> <a.newmane.remove@eastcoastcz.com> writes:
>
>
> OE_QuoteFix didn't exist back that far.
>
> Well, let me put it a slightly different way:
>
> 1. OE is enormously common.
> 2. More and more OE folks are using OE_QuoteFix
> 3. OE_QuoteFix does not regard {space}{reply marker}
> as part of a reply.
>
> So you're going to be dedicatedly producing posts that are hard to
> reply to for a rather large number of people.
And not just people using OE_QuoteFix, other readers as well. OEQF is
just the tip of the ice burg. I've seen styles like Dik make things hard
to read in google groups as well.
| |
| Arthur J. O'Dwyer 2004-11-01, 2:47 am |
|
[f-ups set to c.p, where this discussion may be marginally topical]
On Mon, 1 Nov 2004, Dik T. Winter wrote:
> Alfred Z. Newmane <a.newmane.remove@eastcoastcz.com> writes:
>
> My newsreader is a bit more intelligent. I have instructed it to insert
> " > " before quotations. But if the quoted text already starts with a
> space it will only insert " >".
How about if the quoted text starts with ">"? One of my pet peeves
is news clients that insert extra levels of spaces in quotes; a couple
of levels is okay, but the above quote would end up being
[vbcol=seagreen]
if everyone used your newsreader's conventions without any hand-tweaking,
and that just looks ridiculous---some 1/7 of the total screen real estate
is being taken up by quote markers, which ought to be almost redundant
anyway, if quoting is done properly. (IOW, it ought to be pretty easy
to tell when the writer is "speaking" and when the previous contributors
are "speaking"; the quote markers are IMHO just there for academic reasons
(e.g., "Yes, Elmer did really write that sentence, and not another").
-Arthur,
rambling late at night
| |
| Thomas G. Marshall 2004-11-01, 5:53 pm |
| Dik T. Winter coughed up:
> In article <2ul0kdF2aer25U1@uni-berlin.de> "Alfred Z. Newmane"
> <a.newmane.remove@eastcoastcz.com> writes: > Thomas G. Marshall
> wrote: > > Dik T. Winter coughed up:
> ... > > > > I don't see i=i++ as ever anything useful, but 45°
> tangental to > > > this > original thread is something that bothers
> me. There is a > > > *prevailing* > notion that:
> token. > This serves as an exellent example of what can happen, and
> why we are > asking you to fix this :-)
>
> My newsreader is a bit more intelligent. I have instructed it to
> insert " > " before quotations. But if the quoted text already
> starts with a
> space it will only insert " >".
Well, in any case, I've asked the creator of OE_QuoteFix about this issue.
He'll contact me with /his/ take on it, probably soon.
--
Framsticks. 3D Artificial Life evolution. You can see the creatures
that evolve and how they interact, hunt, swim, etc. (Unaffiliated with
me). http://www.frams.alife.pl/
| |
| Programmer Dude 2004-11-01, 5:53 pm |
| Floyd L. Davidson writes:
> I think most folks that use Microsoft systems recommend Forte
> Agent, though I haven't kept up on that for a long time. There
> is a free version and a commercial (greatly enhanced) version
> too. Somebody who uses an MS platform can give you better
> advice on that.
I've been using the "paid-for" version of Agent for many months
now. It's okay, but it has a number of annoying things that have
over those months determined me to seek a better newsreader.
The text editor has some non-Windows weirdnesses I really dislike,
and the folders section is only one level deep--no subfolders.
(That last alone is almost enough to condemn it in my mind.)
It also suffers the unix disease of being to damn configurable.
| |
| Programmer Dude 2004-11-01, 5:53 pm |
| Alfred Z. Newmane writes:
> Why should everyone change the way thing have bene done the past
> decade anda half because one person decides to diverge from that
> accepted norm?
Intelligence.
Creativity.
Lack of being a goddamned sheep.
Lack of being an anal controlling XXXXXXX.
| |
| Alfred Z. Newmane 2004-11-01, 5:53 pm |
| Programmer Dude wrote:
> Alfred Z. Newmane writes:
>
>
> Intelligence.
> Creativity.
> Lack of being a goddamned sheep.
> Lack of being an anal controlling XXXXXXX.
Now this is /NOT/ what this is about. I have no problem with making
improvements any any existing thing, but making unnecissary changes to
something that has been vastly accepted for /good reason/, and not just
merely because it is an accepted norm. It's all for the sake for sane
news reading, not having to deal with malformed quoting and broken quote
casscades.
| |
| Alfred Z. Newmane 2004-11-01, 5:53 pm |
| Programmer Dude wrote:
> Floyd L. Davidson writes:
>
>
> I've been using the "paid-for" version of Agent for many months
> now. It's okay, but it has a number of annoying things that have
> over those months determined me to seek a better newsreader.
Any suggestions then?
> The text editor has some non-Windows weirdnesses I really dislike,
> and the folders section is only one level deep--no subfolders.
> (That last alone is almost enough to condemn it in my mind.)
Agreed. If you are developing for a certain platform, you should take
note of how things like controls (buttons, menus, checkboxes, etc) and
arangements are commonly used in better programs.
One of the biggest problems I've seen in cross platform applications is
sticking to a certain model that works well on one platform but makes it
harder to use on another.
One of my core programing models is this:
"Keep things simple."
Knowing how to create applications that are both simple /and/ powerful
is a good trait to have in the programming world, but alas, bosses
aren't always as keen 
> It also suffers the unix disease of being to damn configurable.
True, that can be a pain sometimes, although I realy like Linux :-)
Actually there is sort of a drowing trend to have an "Advanced or
Simple" mode switch, though sometimes it doesn't seem to come out quite
right.
| |
| Dik T. Winter 2004-11-01, 8:47 pm |
| In article <2uo19rF2dhgalU1@uni-berlin.de> "Alfred Z. Newmane" <a.newmane.remove@eastcoastcz.com> writes:
....
> Now this is /NOT/ what this is about. I have no problem with making
> improvements any any existing thing, but making unnecissary changes to
> something that has been vastly accepted for /good reason/, and not just
> merely because it is an accepted norm. It's all for the sake for sane
> news reading, not having to deal with malformed quoting and broken quote
> casscades.
Have you read what I wrote? I use this kind of quoting already about 17
years. Once upon a time it was propagated for good reasons, and so I
started with it in early 1987. So who is changing what? See:
<http://groups.google.nl/groups?as_u...ng.mcvax.cwi.nl>
and also see that Google has no problems with it; colour-coding is OK.
Google apparently knows a bit more about quoting than other systems.
The apparent requirement that quotation marks should *not* be preceded
by a space is an arbitrary change from previous practice. (To be
entirely correct, I changed it between 11 November 1986 and 25 April
1987.)
--
dik t. winter, cwi, kruislaan 413, 1098 sj amsterdam, nederland, +31205924131
home: bovenover 215, 1025 jn amsterdam, nederland; http://www.cwi.nl/~dik/
| |
| David Schwartz 2004-11-02, 7:48 am |
|
"Jerry Coffin" <jcoffin@taeus.com> wrote in message
news:b2e4b04.0410291754.29b5dd46@posting.google.com...
> "Thomas G. Marshall"
> < tgm2tothe10thpower@replacetextwithnumber
.hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:<Bltgd.6$304.0@trndny06>...
>
> This is more than a mere notion: it's a tautology, since C is defined
> by the standard.
Anything not prohibited by the C standard is C. Anything not in the
standard is not the C language itself, but it does not follow that it is not
C.
To permit me an analogy, any conversation in English is English.
However, that doesn't mean that the coversation is *about* English.
To argue that anything not explicitly defined in the C standard is not C
is to argue that conversations that aren't about English aren't in English.
Of course, this has no bearing on what is or isn't topical on
comp.lang.c or comp.lang.c++ which are for dicussions of the respective
languages themselves. If we had 'lang.english' it would not follow that
because any discussion in English *is* English, it's therefore topical in
lang.english.
DS
| |
| Richard Bos 2004-11-02, 7:48 am |
| "Thomas G. Marshall"
< tgm2tothe10thpower@replacetextwithnumber
.hotmail.com> wrote:
> Well, let me put it a slightly different way:
>
> 1. OE is enormously common.
That is not Dik's fault.
GARN.
Richard
| |
| Thomas G. Marshall 2004-11-02, 5:54 pm |
| Richard Bos coughed up:
> "Thomas G. Marshall"
> < tgm2tothe10thpower@replacetextwithnumber
.hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> That is not Dik's fault.
Thoughtless comment. I never said it was. What I said is fully orthogonal
to "who is right" here. Recap:
<full quote>
Well, let me put it a slightly different way:
1. OE is enormously common.
2. More and more OE folks are using OE_QuoteFix
3. OE_QuoteFix does not regard {space}{reply marker}
as part of a reply.
So you're going to be dedicatedly producing posts that are hard to reply to
for a rather large number of people.
</full quote>
This has nothing to do with who or which technique "is right".
--
http://www.allexperts.com is a nifty way to get an answer to just about
/anything/.
| |
| Thomas G. Marshall 2004-11-02, 5:54 pm |
| David Schwartz coughed up:
> "Jerry Coffin" <jcoffin@taeus.com> wrote in message
> news:b2e4b04.0410291754.29b5dd46@posting.google.com...
>
>
> Anything not prohibited by the C standard is C. Anything not in
> the standard is not the C language itself, but it does not follow
> that it is not C.
Yep, IMO as well. Basically I would go further to say that non-STD C is C
by definition. But I'm trying like crazy to not make this /sound/ like a
semantic argument.
> To permit me an analogy, any conversation in English is English.
> However, that doesn't mean that the coversation is *about* English.
>
> To argue that anything not explicitly defined in the C standard
> is not C is to argue that conversations that aren't about English
> aren't in English.
>
> Of course, this has no bearing on what is or isn't topical on
> comp.lang.c or comp.lang.c++ which are for dicussions of the
> respective languages themselves. If we had 'lang.english' it would
> not follow that because any discussion in English *is* English, it's
> therefore topical in lang.english.
>
> DS
--
http://www.allexperts.com is a nifty way to get an answer to just about
/anything/.
| |
| Programmer Dude 2004-11-02, 5:54 pm |
| Thomas G. Marshall writes:
> 1. OE is enormously common.
> 2. More and more OE folks are using OE_QuoteFix
> 3. OE_QuoteFix does not regard {space}{reply marker}
> as part of a reply.
>
> So you're going to be dedicatedly producing posts that are hard
> to reply to for a rather large number of people.
TS. There is a common sense among the cognoscenti that folks who
use OE get exactly what they deserve.
An even more common sense is that it's absurd to modify ones own
behavior for arguably defective software used by others.
| |
| Programmer Dude 2004-11-02, 5:54 pm |
| Alfred Z. Newmane writes:
>
> Now this is /NOT/ what this is about.
[shrug] Smells to me like it is.
> I have no problem with making improvements any any existing thing,
> but making unnecissary changes to something that has been vastly
> accepted for /good reason/,...
But who's to say it's really good reason and not a self-limiting,
fear-of-change, fear-of-growth thing?
Change is good.
> ...and not just merely because it is an accepted norm.
But I perceive that that's a lot of the real reason behind these
sorts of threads. I've seen them often. Just suggest that it
is inevitable that amUSENET will migrate to HTML and watch the
reactions!
> It's all for the sake for sane news reading, not having to deal
> with malformed quoting and broken quote casscades.
I think some folks take amUSENET way too seriously. When how other
people write a post starts to actually affect you, it's time to
unplug the network cable and get outside and breath some real air.
Change is good. Variety is good.
| |
|
| Programmer Dude wrote:
> Alfred Z. Newmane writes:
>
>
> [shrug] Smells to me like it is.
>
>
> But who's to say it's really good reason and not a self-limiting,
> fear-of-change, fear-of-growth thing?
>
> Change is good.
>
>
> But I perceive that that's a lot of the real reason behind these
> sorts of threads. I've seen them often. Just suggest that it
> is inevitable that amUSENET will migrate to HTML and watch the
> reactions!
>
>
> I think some folks take amUSENET way too seriously. When how other
> people write a post starts to actually affect you, it's time to
> unplug the network cable and get outside and breath some real air.
>
> Change is good. Variety is good.
Even if it completely breaks existing established unwritten standards?
This isn't soem dictatorship telling you what to wear or who to vote
for, or whatever, it's about news readers and something that wasnt'
broken being fixed by morons. So for crying out loud, get off this
stupid loony fringe of yours and join reality please.
| |
| Alfred Z. Newmane 2004-11-02, 5:54 pm |
| Programmer Dude wrote:
> Thomas G. Marshall writes:
>
>
> TS. There is a common sense among the cognoscenti that folks who
> use OE get exactly what they deserve.
>
> An even more common sense is that it's absurd to modify ones own
> behavior for arguably defective software used by others.
Why do I get the feeling you dislike OE more for being a Microsoft
product, than for any lack of any functionality?
I've been using OE, for yeas, OE_QuoteFix is the best thing since sliced
bread for OE. Even without it, OE wasn't /never/ a horrible news reader.
Granted, not the best, but it always got the job done.
As I've mentioned before, does some jobs better than other readers, like
being able to sort "watched" threads at the top, while at the /same
time/ be able to sort by *date*, not many news readers can do this.
Hell, few readers can even sort watched threads stay at top, let alone
also sort by date. and some readers don't even have a "watch thread"
capability.
No offense to you, Programmer Dude, but I feel as though you never
really tried OE (much), if you really had given it a chance, you may or
may not be as much against it as you are now.
It's up to the eye of the beholder, but people who use and like OE are
those who have actually given it a chance and learned to utilize it's
strengths, and minimize it's weaknesses (OE_QuoteFix.)
All in all, it's not so bad a reader as many people like to /say/ it is.
(If it's really missing something, it's the ability to send control
messages other than Cancel Message's.)
| |
| Alfred Z. Newmane 2004-11-02, 5:54 pm |
| Dik T. Winter wrote:
> In article <2ukitfF2b3abtU1@uni-berlin.de> "Alfred Z. Newmane"
> <a.newmane.remove@eastcoastcz.com> writes: > Dik T. Winter wrote:
> character > ">"
> fixers."
>
> But it makes quotations clearer for those not using quote level
> color-codes.
Yes, but in helping some, you are making it harder for many others, why
is this so hard to understand?
I also have to disagree that you are helping all the non color coded
readers, in that after a few or so quote levels your text gets horribly
mis wrapped because of that extra space, so it, in fact, gets /harder/
to read in many cases. Even google groups captures this.
| |
| Programmer Dude 2004-11-02, 5:54 pm |
| Alfred Z. Newmane writes:
>
> Any suggestions then?
No yet. So far I'm only to the point of realizing I don't like
Agent very much.
>
> Agreed. If you are developing for a certain platform, you should take
> note of how things like controls (buttons, menus, checkboxes, etc) and
> arangements are commonly used in better programs.
And--as in the case of no sub-folders--the level and operation of
software in general. I mean, how lame do you have to be to fail
to recognize that, gee, sub-folders are pretty much a required
feature for organizing your email.
> One of the biggest problems I've seen in cross platform applications is
> sticking to a certain model that works well on one platform but makes it
> harder to use on another.
Yep. Two words: Lotus Notes. In three decades I've never hated a
piece of so-called software more than I hate Lotus Notes.
> One of my core programing models is this:
>
> "Keep things simple."
Yes! And after that, "Keep them usable." I play "user" as much as
I can with my own development (and on the hobby side I *am* the
user! :-)... When any feature starts to be a pain to use, it's time
to re-factor the UI.
> Knowing how to create applications that are both simple /and/ powerful
> is a good trait to have in the programming world, but alas, bosses
> aren't always as keen
We live in a world where business often adopts the attitude that
unhappy, pissed off customers are fine so long as they are so
unhappy and pissed off they go elsewhere. (And then there's
cable companies who have you by the short and curlies and clearly
could care less what you think.)
>
> True, that can be a pain sometimes, although I realy like Linux :-)
Never used Linux, but I was a unix developer for years. Loved it.
Really loved it!
But I'm fine with Windows, too. MS makes some pretty cool software,
and unix really couldn't be a player in the world in which I work
right now.
Bottom line: I have no loyalties to any platform, hard or soft. I
just want stuff that does the job. Windows, unix (and many others)
do, and they're all fine with me! (-:
| |
| Programmer Dude 2004-11-02, 5:54 pm |
| Alfred Z. Newmane writes:
>
> Why do I get the feeling you dislike OE more for being a Microsoft
> product, than for any lack of any functionality?
I don't know, since it's completely off the mark. I *like* MS
products quite a bit. I think they make some amazing stuff. OE
just isn't in that group (nor is VSS).
> I've been using OE, for yeas, OE_QuoteFix is the best thing since
> sliced bread for OE.
I can't imagine using a second piece of software to fix the first.
When I asked Forte about the lack of sub-folders they told me there
was a third party product that provided that functionality.
NO THANKS!!
If your software can't do the job, I'll find some that can.
> Even without it, OE wasn't /never/ a horrible news reader.
> Granted, not the best, but it always got the job done.
Among folks who know what they're doing, it's probably adequate.
But its defaults are dangerous and the way it deals with "file:"
is egregious.
> No offense to you, Programmer Dude, but I feel as though you never
> really tried OE (much),...
You are correct.
> ...if you really had given it a chance, you may or may not be as
> much against it as you are now.
[shrug] Could be, but if third party software is required to make
it truly useful, it'd be off my list.
HOWEVER, keep in mind that ALL I SAID was that OE is widely regarded
in poor favor as a software product. And note that I didn't make any
claims for or against OE.
The real substance of my point was that broken behavior of a piece
of softare is a poor reason to modify ones own actions.
> It's up to the eye of the beholder, but people who use and like OE
> are those who have actually given it a chance and learned to
> utilize it's strengths, and minimize it's weaknesses (OE_QuoteFix.)
Or at least don't mind having to take extra effort to make it useable.
I *do* mind that. If it's not useable out of the box, it can stay IN
the box, AFAIC.
> All in all, it's not so bad a reader as many people like to /say/
> it is.
"Not so bad" seems damning with faint praise.
<GODWIN>
Hitler supposedly liked dogs. Few things in life are ALL bad.
</GODWIN>
Here endith the thread. (-:
| |
| Programmer Dude 2004-11-02, 5:54 pm |
| Crom writes:
>
> Even if it completely breaks existing established unwritten standards?
Heh. "Unwritten standard" is an oxymoron.
And, yes. Even so.
> This isn't soem dictatorship telling you what to wear or who to vote
> for, or whatever, it's about news readers and something that wasnt'
> broken being fixed by morons. So for crying out loud, get off this
> stupid loony fringe of yours and join reality please.
Question: With such kind words, how can I deny such a request?
Answer: Pretty easily.
| |
| Alfred Z. Newmane 2004-11-02, 5:54 pm |
| Programmer Dude wrote:
> Alfred Z. Newmane writes:
>
>
> I don't know, since it's completely off the mark. I *like* MS
> products quite a bit. I think they make some amazing stuff. OE
> just isn't in that group (nor is VSS).
I aplogies then. I also conceeded your point about security elsethread.
>
> I can't imagine using a second piece of software to fix the first.
> When I asked Forte about the lack of sub-folders they told me there
> was a third party product that provided that functionality.
Thats why I asked before if someone news of a good replacement that good
do color coding, sort-by-thread-watching-AND-date.
>
>
> Among folks who know what they're doing, it's probably adequate.
> But its defaults are dangerous and the way it deals with "file:"
> is egregious.
Very true.
>
> You are correct.
>
>
> [shrug] Could be, but if third party software is required to make
> it truly useful, it'd be off my list.
>
I have to agree with you here too, if you know of a godo replacement,
I'm all ears (and eyes :-)
> HOWEVER, keep in mind that ALL I SAID was that OE is widely regarded
> in poor favor as a software product. And note that I didn't make any
> claims for or against OE.
True, I may have jumped the gun a little.
> The real substance of my point was that broken behavior of a piece
> of softare is a poor reason to modify ones own actions.
True, but some people had made the point that it isn't just OE that
parses quotes i nthat way.
>
> Or at least don't mind having to take extra effort to make it useable.
> I *do* mind that. If it's not useable out of the box, it can stay IN
> the box, AFAIC.
True, that usually constitutes a defective product.
| |
| Alfred Z. Newmane 2004-11-02, 5:54 pm |
| Programmer Dude wrote:
> Alfred Z. Newmane writes:
>
>
> No yet. So far I'm only to the point of realizing I don't like
> Agent very much.
Well please feel free to share any solutions you may find. Hell, maybe
one of these days, if I actually get enoug htime, I'll write one!, lol
>
> And--as in the case of no sub-folders--the level and operation of
> software in general. I mean, how lame do you have to be to fail
> to recognize that, gee, sub-folders are pretty much a required
> feature for organizing your email.
Bingo. It's one of those vastly accepted norms that people continue to
request from such applications. It's a shame when some don't listen.
>
> Yep. Two words: Lotus Notes. In three decades I've never hated a
> piece of so-called software more than I hate Lotus Notes.
(GAG!!!) Just the thought brings back so many horrible semi-supressed
memories!
>
> Yes! And after that, "Keep them usable." I play "user" as much as
> I can with my own development (and on the hobby side I *am* the
> user! :-)... When any feature starts to be a pain to use, it's time
> to re-factor the UI.
Somethings else we seem to share in common then :-)
>
> We live in a world where business often adopts the attitude that
> unhappy, pissed off customers are fine so long as they are so
> unhappy and pissed off they go elsewhere.
Sad but true.
> (And then there's cable companies who have you by the short and
> curlies and clearly could care less what you think.)
Thats why I switched to sat-tv a couple years ago :-)
>
> Never used Linux, but I was a unix developer for years. Loved it.
> Really loved it!
Have always loved it for what it was as well. It's a very robust and
stable platform (most of the time) IMHO. trouble is a lot of users,
especially those who were brought up /only/ knowing Windows usually get
scared away at the site of a Unix/Linux console.
> But I'm fine with Windows, too. MS makes some pretty cool software,
> and unix really couldn't be a player in the world in which I work
> right now.
>
> Bottom line: I have no loyalties to any platform, hard or soft. I
> just want stuff that does the job. Windows, unix (and many others)
> do, and they're all fine with me! (-:
Seems we actually have more in common then first meets the eye (or how
ever the saying goes.)
I do most of my dev on windows, and have always been doing unix/linux
dev more for learning/hobbie sake. I also continue ot experiment in the
Win32 realm as well ,always learning some new trick with the WinAPI and
such. :-) I personally love Borland C++ Builder 5. VS.Net has some
merits too, and I'm realatively new to it, but have picked up quite a
bit of the various aspects. I still however prefer BCB for my general
GUI needs.
Though I'm always willing to try new things.
| |
| Programmer Dude 2004-11-02, 5:54 pm |
| Alfred Z. Newmane writes:
>
> Thats why I asked before if someone news of a good replacement that
> good do color coding, sort-by-thread-watching-AND-date.
Agent--if the little things that annoy me don't annoy you so much--
isn't horrible (yes, I AM damning with faint praise, but you may
not object to its faults as much as I do). It does color code quotes
(one level--colored or not colored) and it does allow some tailoring
of what you see in a group (has watched posts, kept posts).....
No, I take it back. Agent's crap.
Consider this: in the editor, it word wraps what I type just fine,
but completely ignores quoted material. Therefore, I have to
manually re-wrap quotes to fit my line length.
Or, if you double-click a word and then attempt to drag-highlight
other words.... nothing happens. Only the double-clicked word
remains highlighted (what idiot thought of that?!?!).
Or, it's sort of a quasi-MDI application (multiple windows in a big
window), but its behavior is annoyingly non-standard. The part I
hate most is that the "main" window is a three pane deal with your
list of groups, list of articles and current article. But I want
articles in their own window, thank you, AND I want to be able to
have multiple article windows open. But all this piece of crap
will give you is one article window. You can open a second "main"
window, but who needs that?
Or, the only reasonable way to use it (due the three-pane mistake)
is with the main window maxed. Which means getting at any other
window (your outbox, for e.g.) requires going to the Window menu
and opening it there.
And why is my outbox NOT listed with my Inbox and other folders?
Since you have to explicitly go open your outbox, it was weeks before
I noticed that I had a couple messages that never made it out (due
to Agent's "send" command being ^N (send Now)...I just can't get
used to that. ^N is almost universally New.
Or how about the fact that the folder list only provides a count of
UNREAD articles. Not the total in the folder (a far more useful
number to me, although I prefer both).
It's also braindead in its handling of column widths.
I mean, what kind of bad weed were these jokers smoking? They
might be decent programmers in some fashion, but they ain't much
in the user interface design area.
No, don't buy Agent. You'd only come to regret it.
> I have to agree with you here too, if you know of a godo replacement,
> I'm all ears (and eyes :-)
[sigh] I really liked netscape 3. Simple and fast. Stayed the
heck out of my way, and I like that in a piece of software (also
in other drivers :-). I learned to love netscape 4.7 and would
have stayed with it, but my company only supports IE, so I lost
the ability to get through our corporate firewall.
I think the problem is often featureitus. The idea that an app
needs to have it all. The CuteFTP product *used*to*be* one of
the best FTP apps out there until they ruined it. Each new
"upgrade" made me like it less and less until--trying to jump
through the misbegotten registration hoops--I finally said, the
hell with it and dis-installed it permanently. (And they've
lost me as a customer forever.)
I've seen a number of really decent shareware apps go down that
road. Pity.
> True, but some people had made the point that it isn't just
> OE that parses quotes i nthat way.
Understood. But you're "talking" to someone who doesn't even
mind top-posting (even prefer it in some circumstances--I tend
to skip posts when all I see on the first screenful is quotes).
HOW a post is formatted is trivial and way below my radar. [shrug]
Now what was it... oh, yeah,... post ^Now
| |
| Al MacHonahey 2004-11-02, 5:54 pm |
| "Thomas G. Marshall" < tgm2tothe10thpower@replacetextwithnumber
.hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<hXthd.2222$fw2.156@trndny01>...
> Dik T. Winter coughed up:
>
>
> Well, in any case, I've asked the creator of OE_QuoteFix about this issue.
> He'll contact me with /his/ take on it, probably soon.
In any case, Dik's usual (and arguebly broken) quoting IS a problem,
eventually wrapping get horrendous, forcing others to manually repair
it if any readablity is to be restored.
Dik, once and for all, PLEASE fix you QUOTES. over 90% of readers and
parsers will NOT parse " > ..." as a line of quoted text. "> ..." is
_UNIVERSAL_, meaning any parser should not trouble with it, so why
break this universally accepted paradigm? Seems rather absurd and
selfish.
| |
| Al MacHonahey 2004-11-02, 5:54 pm |
| "Dik T. Winter" <Dik.Winter@cwi.nl> wrote in message news:<I6H6sw.FII@cwi.nl>...
> In article <hcbhd.842$o52.240@trndny03> "Thomas G. Marshall" < tgm2tothe10thpower@replacetextwithnumber
.hotmail.com> writes:
> ...
>
> What standard?
The the UseNet univerally accepted way of quoting; Quoting with ">
...." isntead of " > ..." will allow your text to be parsed by
virtually every parser/reader without a hitch. Your quoting, however,
does NOT get parsed as quoted text on a vast majority of
readers/parsers. Why break quoting like this? Please fix them.
| |
| Al MacHonahey 2004-11-02, 5:54 pm |
| "Dik T. Winter" <Dik.Winter@cwi.nl> wrote in message news:<I6H79E.H58@cwi.nl>...
> In article <2ul0kdF2aer25U1@uni-berlin.de> "Alfred Z. Newmane" <a.newmane.remove@eastcoastcz.com> writes:
>
> My newsreader is a bit more intelligent. I have instructed it to insert
> " > " before quotations. But if the quoted text already starts with a
> space it will only insert " >".
Thats fine and dandy, sonny, but that ain't the problem. You don't
need the space BEFORE the >, "> ..." is the universal way of quoting
on UseNet. Your quotes don't get ~parsed~AS~QUOTED~TEXT~ on most
parsers/readers. Please fix them. The uiversally accepted UseNet
quoting style is univerally accepted, and has bene for decades,
~FOR~VERY~GOOD~REASONS~. UseNet would of gone to complete insane
quoting hell long ago if not for them.
| |
| Al MacHonahey 2004-11-02, 5:54 pm |
| floyd@barrow.com (Floyd L. Davidson) wrote in message news:<877jp6bb6o.fld@barrow.com>...
> "Dik T. Winter" <Dik.Winter@cwi.nl> wrote:
>
> I had to look twice to even figure out what they were
> complaining about. Gnus does "quote-level color-coding", and it
> works just as expected... which is to say quite correctly with
> your articles as well as with others.
You must be horribly blidn then, sir. The entire point is Dik's
quoting break on many readers and parsers, ie: thye don't get parsed
as quotes on most readers/parsers.
There is nothing wrong with asking someone to follow a universal
UseNet standard thats been in place for decades, but some people wont
listen to any reason and think they are god..... sigh
| |
| Al MacHonahey 2004-11-02, 5:54 pm |
| "Alfred Z. Newmane" <a.newmane.remove@eastcoastcz.com> wrote in message news:<2um0tqF2b2t3iU1@uni-berlin.de>...
> Thomas G. Marshall wrote:
>
> And as I was trying to point out, it's not common for very good reasons.
That because, unlike Dik, other people have actually got a clue of
what and WHY some things are done on UseNet in the way they have been
for decades.
| |
| Al MacHonahey 2004-11-02, 5:54 pm |
| "Dik T. Winter" <Dik.Winter@cwi.nl> wrote in message news:<I6J5H3.60s@cwi.nl>...
> In article <2uo19rF2dhgalU1@uni-berlin.de> "Alfred Z. Newmane" <a.newmane.remove@eastcoastcz.com> writes:
> ...
>
> Have you read what I wrote? I use this kind of quoting already about 17
> years. Once upon a time it was propagated for good reasons, and so I
> started with it in early 1987.
And people even then asked you to fix it. The onyl thing that was
propagated from that was you to people's killfiles.
> So who is changing what? See:
> <http://groups.google.nl/groups?as_u...ng.mcvax.cwi.nl>
> and also see that Google has no problems with it; colour-coding is OK.
For the most part, no, but it causes google to treat non quoted text
that happens to start with whitespace and a ">". Seems broken to me.
Also, you were already killfiled by the time by some, after being
repeatedly asked to fix your damn quoting.
> Google apparently knows a bit more about quoting than other systems.
And a lot more than you, apparently.
> The apparent requirement that quotation marks should *not* be preceded
> by a space is an arbitrary change from previous practice.
No, it's been an accepted UneNet standard since almsot the beginning
of UseNet. Stop trying to find cheap and fact-twisting excuses.
>(To be
> entirely correct, I changed it between 11 November 1986 and 25 April
> 1987.)
And this serves to show how long you've been utterly clueless, or
unwilling to reason.
| |
| J. J. Farrell 2004-11-02, 5:54 pm |
| "Alfred Z. Newmane" <a.newmane.remove@eastcoastcz.com> wrote in message news:<2um124F2a6nbmU1@uni-berlin.de>...
> Thomas G. Marshall wrote:
> <a.newmane.remove@eastcoastcz.com> writes:
> Dik > > T. Winter coughed up: ...
>
> And not just people using OE_QuoteFix, other readers as well. OEQF is
> just the tip of the ice burg. I've seen styles like Dik make things hard
> to read in google groups as well.
URL, please. Dik's style works fine in Google Groups in my experience,
and I agree it is more readable than the commoner style.
| |
| J. J. Farrell 2004-11-02, 5:54 pm |
| "Alfred Z. Newmane" <a.newmane.remove@eastcoastcz.com> wrote in message news:<2ul0kdF2aer25U1@uni-berlin.de>...
> Thomas G. Marshall wrote:
>
> Mr Dik Winter, this is the result of white spae before the quote token.
> This serves as an exellent example of what can happen, and why we are
> asking you to fix this :-)
Nonsense. It's the result of using a broken or misconfigured
news reader.
| |
| J. J. Farrell 2004-11-02, 5:54 pm |
| "Alfred Z. Newmane" <a.newmane.remove@eastcoastcz.com> wrote in message news:<2ul8tsF2buhqsU1@uni-berlin.de>...
>
> The text after "Dik T. Winter coughed up:" is in fact Thomas's quoting
> of Dik, which got horribly miss wrapped, mainly because of the white
> space before his quote char. Why should everyone change the way thing
> have bene done the past decade anda half because one person decides to
> diverge from that accepted norm?
I'm puzzled. What has "the past decade and a half" got to do with
anything? Dik's been quoting in this way in his posts to Usenet
for well over 17 years. Why should he change because you choose
to use a broken program to read his postings?
| |
| Alfred Z. Newmane 2004-11-03, 2:48 am |
| Programmer Dude wrote:
> Alfred Z. Newmane writes:
>
>
> Agent--if the little things that annoy me don't annoy you so much--
> isn't horrible (yes, I AM damning with faint praise, but you may
> not object to its faults as much as I do). It does color code quotes
> (one level--colored or not colored) and it does allow some tailoring
> of what you see in a group (has watched posts, kept posts).....
>
> No, I take it back. Agent's crap.
That's good to know.
> Consider this: in the editor, it word wraps what I type just fine,
> but completely ignores quoted material. Therefore, I have to
> manually re-wrap quotes to fit my line length.
>
> Or, if you double-click a word and then attempt to drag-highlight
> other words.... nothing happens. Only the double-clicked word
> remains highlighted (what idiot thought of that?!?!).
Ineed. Another classic example of a programmer's try-your-own-thing gone
horribly wrong.
> Or, it's sort of a quasi-MDI application (multiple windows in a big
> window), but its behavior is annoyingly non-standard. The part I
> hate most is that the "main" window is a three pane deal with your
> list of groups, list of articles and current article. But I want
> articles in their own window, thank you, AND I want to be able to
> have multiple article windows open. But all this piece of crap
> will give you is one article window. You can open a second "main"
> window, but who needs that?
I've seen very few applications successfully pull off this ort of MDI
style appllication. If thye wantd to do it that way, they should have
looked at Trillian (Pro) at how it lets you have *tabbed) containersfor
message boxes galore, lets you have multiple containers, as well as
"pulling" indicual message boxes "outside" the container, or do away
with the container all together. One of the best semi-MDI designs of
this sort of nature I've ever seen.
> Or, the only reasonable way to use it (due the three-pane mistake)
> is with the main window maxed. Which means getting at any other
> window (your outbox, for e.g.) requires going to the Window menu
> and opening it there.
What the hell? Have the authors never used any other reader before, or
did thye just miss the fact that Outbox is always a folder in the list
(and I like when it turns bold (or some other style to indicate change)
when there is something in it (ie: unsent messages), like any other
folder.
> And why is my outbox NOT listed with my Inbox and other folders?
> Since you have to explicitly go open your outbox, it was weeks before
> I noticed that I had a couple messages that never made it out (due
> to Agent's "send" command being ^N (send Now)...I just can't get
> used to that. ^N is almost universally New.
Another classic example of auothrs completely ignoring how things
normally work in editors. I really don't posibly know what their excuse
could be here, given that ^N not only is a stanard shortcut for New on
Win32 platforms, but also on Mac's (well, Command + N), and I've even
seen this used in some GUI editors in Unix and Linux environments.
> Or how about the fact that the folder list only provides a count of
> UNREAD articles. Not the total in the folder (a far more useful
> number to me, although I prefer both).
>
> It's also braindead in its handling of column widths.
>
> I mean, what kind of bad weed were these jokers smoking? They
> might be decent programmers in some fashion, but they ain't much
> in the user interface design area.
>
> No, don't buy Agent. You'd only come to regret it.
After that review, I'll keep looking :-)
>
> [sigh] I really liked netscape 3. Simple and fast. Stayed the
> heck out of my way, and I like that in a piece of software (also
> in other drivers :-). I learned to love netscape 4.7 and would
> have stayed with it, but my company only supports IE, so I lost
> the ability to get through our corporate firewall.
NS3 (Gold) was my browser of choice once upon a time. Then came NS4
(bleh, gag, snarl, spit) (Did ya ever try getting CSS to work properly
in it after it was working with othes?) Well I suppose NS4.7 was
alright, and used it for sometime.
As for your corporate firewall, I doubt it would be checking wehat
browser you are (were) using, it probably used soem automatic proxy
settings; just snag them, and insert 'em into NS's prefs and you should
be on your way :-)
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