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Author Educate users the proper ways from the beginning.
Han Boetes

2005-03-30, 2:46 am

Hi,

This patch changes the instalation so that an initial user account
is created during the install which has the permission to use sudo.

Advantages:

- Users get educated from the beginning about safe
systemadministration.
- No remote ssh login to the rootaccount is required anymore.

Disadvantages:

- People will moan at the least.


I didn't test this patch so I might have missed something, but I
did read every line at least ten times so I hope I got it right in
one time.


Index: distrib/miniroot/install.sh
========================================
===========================
RCS file: /cvs/src/distrib/miniroot/install.sh,v
retrieving revision 1.150
diff -u -p -r1.150 install.sh
--- distrib/miniroot/install.sh 26 Mar 2005 01:40:21 -0000 1.150
+++ distrib/miniroot/install.sh 30 Mar 2005 06:13:38 -0000
@@ -337,13 +337,16 @@ __EOT
ask_yn "Configure the network?" yes
[[ $resp == y ]] && donetconfig

+ask_until "The initial useraccount?"
+_initial=$resp
+
_oifs=$IFS
IFS=
while :; do
- askpass "Password for root account? (will not echo)"
+ askpass "Password for ${_initial}? (will not echo)"
_password=$resp

- askpass "Password for root account? (again)"
+ askpass "Password for ${_initial}? (again)"
[[ $resp == $_password ]] && break

echo "Passwords do not match, try again."
@@ -398,9 +401,12 @@ for _f in fstab kbdtype my* *.conf *.tai
done )

_encr=`/mnt/usr/bin/encrypt -b 8 -- "$_password"`
-echo "1,s@^root::@root:${_encr}:@
-w
-q" | /mnt/bin/ed /mnt/etc/master.passwd 2> /dev/null
+echo "${_initial}:${_encr}:1000:10:default:0:0::/home/${_initial}:/bin/ksh" >> /mnt/etc/master.passwd
+echo "${_initial} ALL=(ALL) ALL" >> /mnt/etc/sudoers
+
+cp -R /mnt/etc/skel /mnt/home/$_initial
+chown -R 1000:10 /mnt/home/$_initial
+
/mnt/usr/sbin/pwd_mkdb -p -d /mnt/etc /etc/master.passwd

echo -n "done.\nGenerating initial host.random file..."
Index: usr.bin/ssh/sshd_config
========================================
===========================
RCS file: /cvs/src/usr.bin/ssh/sshd_config,v
retrieving revision 1.70
diff -u -p -r1.70 sshd_config
--- usr.bin/ssh/sshd_config 23 Dec 2004 23:11:00 -0000 1.70
+++ usr.bin/ssh/sshd_config 30 Mar 2005 06:13:38 -0000
@@ -32,7 +32,7 @@
# Authentication:

#LoginGraceTime 2m
-#PermitRootLogin yes
+PermitRootLogin no
#StrictModes yes
#MaxAuthTries 6

Index: usr.bin/sudo/sudoers
========================================
===========================
RCS file: /cvs/src/usr.bin/sudo/sudoers,v
retrieving revision 1.5
diff -u -p -r1.5 sudoers
--- usr.bin/sudo/sudoers 28 Sep 2004 15:10:51 -0000 1.5
+++ usr.bin/sudo/sudoers 30 Mar 2005 06:13:39 -0000
@@ -27,3 +27,5 @@ root ALL=(ALL) ALL
# Samples
# %users ALL=/sbin/mount /cdrom,/sbin/umount /cdrom
# %users localhost=/sbin/shutdown -h now
+
+# Initial user
Index: etc/master.passwd
========================================
===========================
RCS file: /cvs/src/etc/master.passwd,v
retrieving revision 1.46
diff -u -p -r1.46 master.passwd
--- etc/master.passwd 28 Mar 2005 06:55:11 -0000 1.46
+++ etc/master.passwd 30 Mar 2005 06:13:39 -0000
@@ -1,4 +1,4 @@
-root::0:0:daemon:0:0:Charlie &:/root:/bin/ksh
+root:*:0:0:daemon:0:0:Charlie &:/root:/bin/ksh
daemon:*:1:1::0:0:The devil himself:/root:/sbin/nologin
operator:*:2:5::0:0:System &:/operator:/sbin/nologin
bin:*:3:7::0:0:Binaries Commands and Source,,,:/:/sbin/nologin




# Han

Theo de Raadt

2005-03-30, 2:46 am

-#PermitRootLogin yes
+PermitRootLogin no


How many times do I have to say no to this diff?

No.

No, No, No.

Aaron Glenn

2005-03-30, 2:46 am

On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 08:50:07 +0200, Han Boetes <han@mijncomputer.nl> wrote:
> Advantages:
> - No remote ssh login to the rootaccount is required anymore.

I've never understood why people think this is advantageous.

Han Boetes

2005-03-30, 2:46 am

Theo de Raadt wrote:
> -#PermitRootLogin yes
> +PermitRootLogin no
>
>
> How many times do I have to say no to this diff?

Han counts on his fingers...

> No.
>
> No, No, No.

Please? :-)



# Han

Han Boetes

2005-03-30, 2:46 am

Aaron Glenn wrote:
> Han Boetes <han@mijncomputer.nl> wrote:
>
> I've never understood why people think this is advantageous.

And that while it's so obvious. :-)



# Han

Paul de Weerd

2005-03-30, 2:46 am

On Wed, Mar 30, 2005 at 08:50:07AM +0200, Han Boetes wrote:
| Hi,
|
| This patch changes the instalation so that an initial user account
| is created during the install which has the permission to use sudo.
|
| Advantages:
|
| - Users get educated from the beginning about safe
| systemadministration.
| - No remote ssh login to the rootaccount is required anymore.
|
| Disadvantages:
|
| - People will moan at the least.
|
|
| I didn't test this patch so I might have missed something, but I
| did read every line at least ten times so I hope I got it right in
| one time.

Simply /mnt/usr/sbin/chroot /mnt after install and do your thing. Don't
force me into creating users on my specialized systems.

Cheers,

Paul 'WEiRD' de Weerd

--
>++++++++[<++++++++++>-]<+++++++.>+++[<------>-]<.>+++[<+
+++++++++++>-]<.>++[<------------>-]<+.--------------.[-]
http://www.weirdnet.nl/

Otto Moerbeek

2005-03-30, 2:46 am

On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Han Boetes wrote:

> Hi,
>
> This patch changes the instalation so that an initial user account
> is created during the install which has the permission to use sudo.
>
> Advantages:
>
> - Users get educated from the beginning about safe
> systemadministration.
> - No remote ssh login to the rootaccount is required anymore.
>
> Disadvantages:
>
> - People will moan at the least.

More than that. Your diff is unusable in a YP environment. Almost none of
my machines have regular user accounts, and I'd hate to be forced to
create local user accounts.

-Otto

>
>
> I didn't test this patch so I might have missed something, but I
> did read every line at least ten times so I hope I got it right in
> one time.
>
>
> Index: distrib/miniroot/install.sh
> ========================================
===========================
> RCS file: /cvs/src/distrib/miniroot/install.sh,v
> retrieving revision 1.150
> diff -u -p -r1.150 install.sh
> --- distrib/miniroot/install.sh 26 Mar 2005 01:40:21 -0000 1.150
> +++ distrib/miniroot/install.sh 30 Mar 2005 06:13:38 -0000
> @@ -337,13 +337,16 @@ __EOT
> ask_yn "Configure the network?" yes
> [[ $resp == y ]] && donetconfig
>
> +ask_until "The initial useraccount?"
> +_initial=$resp
> +
> _oifs=$IFS
> IFS=
> while :; do
> - askpass "Password for root account? (will not echo)"
> + askpass "Password for ${_initial}? (will not echo)"
> _password=$resp
>
> - askpass "Password for root account? (again)"
> + askpass "Password for ${_initial}? (again)"
> [[ $resp == $_password ]] && break
>
> echo "Passwords do not match, try again."
> @@ -398,9 +401,12 @@ for _f in fstab kbdtype my* *.conf *.tai
> done )
>
> _encr=`/mnt/usr/bin/encrypt -b 8 -- "$_password"`
> -echo "1,s@^root::@root:${_encr}:@
> -w
> -q" | /mnt/bin/ed /mnt/etc/master.passwd 2> /dev/null
> +echo "${_initial}:${_encr}:1000:10:default:0:0::/home/${_initial}:/bin/ksh" >> /mnt/etc/master.passwd
> +echo "${_initial} ALL=(ALL) ALL" >> /mnt/etc/sudoers
> +
> +cp -R /mnt/etc/skel /mnt/home/$_initial
> +chown -R 1000:10 /mnt/home/$_initial
> +
> /mnt/usr/sbin/pwd_mkdb -p -d /mnt/etc /etc/master.passwd
>
> echo -n "done.\nGenerating initial host.random file..."
> Index: usr.bin/ssh/sshd_config
> ========================================
===========================
> RCS file: /cvs/src/usr.bin/ssh/sshd_config,v
> retrieving revision 1.70
> diff -u -p -r1.70 sshd_config
> --- usr.bin/ssh/sshd_config 23 Dec 2004 23:11:00 -0000 1.70
> +++ usr.bin/ssh/sshd_config 30 Mar 2005 06:13:38 -0000
> @@ -32,7 +32,7 @@
> # Authentication:
>
> #LoginGraceTime 2m
> -#PermitRootLogin yes
> +PermitRootLogin no
> #StrictModes yes
> #MaxAuthTries 6
>
> Index: usr.bin/sudo/sudoers
> ========================================
===========================
> RCS file: /cvs/src/usr.bin/sudo/sudoers,v
> retrieving revision 1.5
> diff -u -p -r1.5 sudoers
> --- usr.bin/sudo/sudoers 28 Sep 2004 15:10:51 -0000 1.5
> +++ usr.bin/sudo/sudoers 30 Mar 2005 06:13:39 -0000
> @@ -27,3 +27,5 @@ root ALL=(ALL) ALL
> # Samples
> # %users ALL=/sbin/mount /cdrom,/sbin/umount /cdrom
> # %users localhost=/sbin/shutdown -h now
> +
> +# Initial user
> Index: etc/master.passwd
> ========================================
===========================
> RCS file: /cvs/src/etc/master.passwd,v
> retrieving revision 1.46
> diff -u -p -r1.46 master.passwd
> --- etc/master.passwd 28 Mar 2005 06:55:11 -0000 1.46
> +++ etc/master.passwd 30 Mar 2005 06:13:39 -0000
> @@ -1,4 +1,4 @@
> -root::0:0:daemon:0:0:Charlie &:/root:/bin/ksh
> +root:*:0:0:daemon:0:0:Charlie &:/root:/bin/ksh
> daemon:*:1:1::0:0:The devil himself:/root:/sbin/nologin
> operator:*:2:5::0:0:System &:/operator:/sbin/nologin
> bin:*:3:7::0:0:Binaries Commands and Source,,,:/:/sbin/nologin
>
>
>
>
> # Han

Han Boetes

2005-03-30, 2:46 am

Paul de Weerd wrote:
> Simply /mnt/usr/sbin/chroot /mnt after install and do your
> thing.

For me it's a piece of pie, I know what to change. And I'll do it
afterwards.

> Don't force me into creating users on my specialized
> systems.

The idea behind this patch is to improve the security for the
default install for new users. Advanced users can undo these
defaults in two minutes. But setting up and getting used to this
method of logging is can take month. And I have to explain it
again and again while lots of people don't even care, since they
asume the default is OK.



# Han

Han Boetes

2005-03-30, 2:46 am

Otto Moerbeek wrote:
> More than that. Your diff is unusable in a YP environment.
> Almost none of my machines have regular user accounts, and I'd
> hate to be forced to create local user accounts.

OK, you got a good point there.


I visuallize a compromize, something like:


ask_yesno "Setup a local user with permission to use sudo? (recommended) " "y"

etc.. etc..



# Han

Paul de Weerd

2005-03-30, 2:46 am

On Wed, Mar 30, 2005 at 10:32:21AM +0200, Han Boetes wrote:
| Paul de Weerd wrote:
| > Simply /mnt/usr/sbin/chroot /mnt after install and do your
| > thing.
|
| For me it's a piece of pie, I know what to change. And I'll do it
| afterwards.

Then do your changes, proposed in your diff, afterwards. You can
prohibit root to log in via ssh afterwards. Quite easy. Less then the
two minutes you talk about.

| > Don't force me into creating users on my specialized
| > systems.
|
| The idea behind this patch is to improve the security for the
| default install for new users. Advanced users can undo these
| defaults in two minutes. But setting up and getting used to this
| method of logging is can take month. And I have to explain it
| again and again while lots of people don't even care, since they
| asume the default is OK.

The default *IS* OK.

Cheers,

Paul 'WEiRD' de Weerd

--
>++++++++[<++++++++++>-]<+++++++.>+++[<------>-]<.>+++[<+
+++++++++++>-]<.>++[<------------>-]<+.--------------.[-]
http://www.weirdnet.nl/

Jesse Kempf

2005-03-30, 7:46 am

On Mar 30, 2005, at 3:39 AM, Han Boetes wrote:

> Otto Moerbeek wrote:
>
> OK, you got a good point there.

> I visuallize a compromize, something like:
....

I, for one, would like to say that we should paint the bike shed green,
because green is superior to all other colors. Everyone who disagrees
and argues that green is not the most superior color for a bike shed is
a heathen.

Take from my words what you will. OpenBSD is used in enough places, and
enough weird and specialized ways, that patches that enforce some sort
of install-time policy will cause consternation and lead to annoying
arguments. I'd like to see the capability to add a wheeled user at
install-time, but not be forced into that. I'd like to be able to
disable ssh root logins at install-time, but not be forced into that.
I'd like to have my system order me a pizza and refill the coffee pot
at install-time, but not be forced into that. I don't like your idea
because it enforces a one-size-fits-all a priori notion of security and
sane defaults, I like it because it winds up automating yet another
task I usually need to do. Try making it optional and see if that makes
things more amenable.

And paint the bike shed green.

Cheers,
-Jesse Kempf

Fredrik Widlund

2005-03-30, 7:46 am

Han Boetes wrote:

>Aaron Glenn wrote:
>
>
>
>And that while it's so obvious. :-)
>
>
I am curious as well. Since it's so obvious would you mind elaborating
a bit, to educate at least me?

Do you believe that security through indirection, is a generic "proper
way"? I then assume additional levels increase security even more?

Are you saying that credentials to the accounts having su(do) access,
don't need to be as secure as the su credentials?

Since you are proposing sudo as the way, what sudo specific (as in
different from su) configuration do you recommend?

I would like to share more of the insights behind your teachings. I hope
they are more substantial than "always put 2 firewalls in serial" type
arguments...

Regards,
Fredrik Widlund

Han Boetes

2005-03-30, 7:46 am

Fredrik Widlund wrote:
> I am curious as well. Since it's so obvious would you mind
> elaborating a bit, to educate at least me?
>
> Do you believe that security through indirection, is a generic
> "proper way"? I then assume additional levels increase security
> even more?
>
> Are you saying that credentials to the accounts having su(do)
> access, don't need to be as secure as the su credentials?
>
> Since you are proposing sudo as the way, what sudo specific (as
> in different from su) configuration do you recommend?

Please do read the patch.

> I would like to share more of the insights behind your
> teachings. I hope they are more substantial than "always put 2
> firewalls in serial" type arguments...



# Han

Han Boetes

2005-03-30, 7:46 am

Jesse Kempf wrote:
> On Mar 30, 2005, at 3:39 AM, Han Boetes wrote:
>
>
> ...
>
> I, for one, would like to say that we should paint the bike shed green,
> because green is superior to all other colors. Everyone who disagrees
> and argues that green is not the most superior color for a bike shed is
> a heathen.
>
> Take from my words what you will. OpenBSD is used in enough places, and
> enough weird and specialized ways, that patches that enforce some sort
> of install-time policy will cause consternation and lead to annoying
> arguments. I'd like to see the capability to add a wheeled user at
> install-time, but not be forced into that. I'd like to be able to
> disable ssh root logins at install-time, but not be forced into that.
> I'd like to have my system order me a pizza and refill the coffee pot
> at install-time, but not be forced into that. I don't like your idea
> because it enforces a one-size-fits-all a priori notion of security and
> sane defaults, I like it because it winds up automating yet another
> task I usually need to do. Try making it optional and see if that makes
> things more amenable.
>
> And paint the bike shed green.

You just cut away my suggestion, the line that is agreeing with
what you are ``requesting,'' and then you _claim_ I have a one-
sided view. That was a quote out of context.



# Han

Fredrik Widlund

2005-03-30, 7:46 am

Han Boetes wrote:

>Fredrik Widlund wrote:
>
>
I find the lack of response disappointing...
[vbcol=seagreen]
>
>Please do read the patch.
>
>
Yes, It seems you want to give additional users root access with their
own credentials, in effect multiplying root credentials. This, in
itself, will have the opposite effect and decrease the level of security.

Fredrik Widlund

Cedric Berger

2005-03-30, 7:46 am

Fredrik Widlund wrote:

> I then assume additional levels increase security even more?

Of course additional levels increase security.
That's one of the basic principle of security.

Now, of course, one good level (RSA PK) is
better than two poor ones (foobar-style password)
Cedric

Fredrik Widlund

2005-03-30, 7:46 am

Cedric Berger wrote:

> Fredrik Widlund wrote:
>
>
>
> Of course additional levels increase security.
> That's one of the basic principle of security.

This a flawed and simple-minded argument. It is not that simple. The
weakest link often breaks in a security context, breaking the whole
chain. Adding more chains does not always imply added security, and can
imply the opposite.

Fredrik Widlund

Dan Harnett

2005-03-30, 7:46 am

On Wed, Mar 30, 2005 at 08:50:07AM +0200, Han Boetes wrote:
> This patch changes the instalation so that an initial user account
> is created during the install which has the permission to use sudo.
>
> Advantages:
>
> - Users get educated from the beginning about safe
> systemadministration.
> - No remote ssh login to the rootaccount is required anymore.
>
> Disadvantages:
>
> - People will moan at the least.

Not exactly what you're looking for, but for people who want to do
things like this, the siteXX.tgz tarball can already handle these types
of localized changes.

http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq4.html#site

It's a wonderful tool that can allow you to be very creative. Not only
does my local siteXX file contain configuration changes, it contains
pre-installed packages and updated versions of binaries from the -stable
branch. Before a new installation is booted live for the first time, it
already contains fixes for the errata.

The downside is that it may require a bit of maintainence to keep the
tarball up to date (depending on what you include in it).

Cedric Berger

2005-03-30, 5:48 pm

Fredrik Widlund wrote:

> Cedric Berger wrote:
>
>
>
> This a flawed and simple-minded argument. It is not that simple. The
> weakest link often breaks in a security context, breaking the whole
> chain. Adding more chains does not always imply added security, and
> can imply the opposite.

Of course. You don't add chains. You add Layers.
This is a pretty basic concept.
Cedric

Tobias Weingartner

2005-03-30, 5:48 pm

On Wednesday, March 30, Paul de Weerd wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 30, 2005 at 08:50:07AM +0200, Han Boetes wrote:
> |
> | - Users get educated from the beginning about safe
> | systemadministration.
> | - No remote ssh login to the rootaccount is required anymore.

Sorry Paul, this response is really to Han,

You are teaching them the wrong thing. Insecure root login (or
typing your privilidged password) over an insecure channel (does
not matter if it is root or a users) is what is not safe.

It matters nothing, if you have root login disabled on ssh but
allow a user to sudo to do stuff. It is *THE SAME THING* as
having a root login.


Instead, teach them what safe channels and environments are.

--Toby.
PS: Ok, it is the same thing if only one person knows the root
password (supposedly).

Jesper Louis Andersen

2005-03-30, 5:48 pm

Quoting Tobias Weingartner (weingart@tepid.org):

> It matters nothing, if you have root login disabled on ssh but
> allow a user to sudo to do stuff. It is *THE SAME THING* as
> having a root login.

You are right from the security perspective. From an adminstration
perspective though, it is important to stress the difference. If
the administrators agrees not to use sudo su, then you have a
nice log of who did what on a given box. You also know where the
compromise came from, by the use of logs.

By using sudo, you can also get rid of a common password for all
users. These tend to be rather irritating to remember. I guess the
same thing can be achieved by clever use of ssh, however.

--
jlouis

Michael Hamerski

2005-03-30, 5:48 pm

Jesper Louis Andersen wrote:
> Quoting Tobias Weingartner (weingart@tepid.org):
>
>
>
>
> You are right from the security perspective. From an adminstration
> perspective though, it is important to stress the difference. If
> the administrators agrees not to use sudo su, then you have a
> nice log of who did what on a given box. You also know where the
> compromise came from, by the use of logs.

If your system is compromised, how do you trust your logs' integrity?

Right, you log remotely, but then your log server might also be either
compromised or just bombed away.

Shifting the emphasis from one security mechanism to another doesn't
guarantee total security, it just displaces the burden elsewhere.

Usually, the correct implementation of any security mechanism is the
problem more than the underlying mechanism.

sudo or PKI are not magical solutions. there are none. you can spread
risk or shift it, you cannot eliminate it.
>
> By using sudo, you can also get rid of a common password for all
> users. These tend to be rather irritating to remember.

use long mnemonic "nonsense" passphrases instead of pseudo-random 8-char
"secure" passwords.

mike

Sigfred Håversen

2005-03-30, 5:48 pm

Michael Hamerski wrote:
> Jesper Louis Andersen wrote:
>
[snip][vbcol=seagreen]
>
>
> use long mnemonic "nonsense" passphrases instead of pseudo-random 8-char
> "secure" passwords.

For this http://world.std.com/~reinhold/diceware.html is useful.

/Sigfred

Bob Beck

2005-03-30, 5:48 pm

* Han Boetes <han@mijncomputer.nl> [2005-03-30 01:47]:
> Otto Moerbeek wrote:
>
> OK, you got a good point there.
>
>
> I visuallize a compromize, something like:
>
>
> ask_yesno "Setup a local user with permission to use sudo? (recommended) " "y"
>
> etc.. etc..

All unmitigated horseshit. Sorry. Look I use sudo, and I like it.
but it is no substitute for allowing root login to a box, and is no
substitute for "su", Sorry. They are different. I don't want to add a
billion sudoable local accounts to run boxen in a distributed
authentication environment. I want "root" local, and be done with it.
I want root exposed if someone knows the root password, not if someone
knows the root password or fourteen other idiot's passwords that are
used every day. That's not more secure. If you want a useful diff to
help stop this ridiculous discussion from propping up every little
while. Here's what I propose:


Index: dot.login
========================================
===========================
RCS file: /cvs/src/etc/root/dot.login,v
retrieving revision 1.10
diff -u -r1.10 dot.login
--- dot.login 2003/08/19 10:13:14 1.10
+++ dot.login 2005/03/30 19:04:05
@@ -12,6 +12,5 @@
onintr

if ( `logname` == `whoami` ) then
- echo "Don't login as root, use su"
echo "Read the afterboot(8) man page for administration advice."
endif



Saying "don't login as root" is horseshit. It stems from the
days when people sniffed the first packets of sessions so logging in
as yourself and su-ing decreased the chance an attacker would see the
root pw, and decreast the chance you got spoofed as to your telnet host
target, You'd get your password spoofed but not root's pw. Gimme a
XXXXing break. this is 2005 - We have ssh, used properly it's secure.
used improperly none of this 1989 bullshit will make a damn bit of
difference.

-Bob

eric

2005-03-30, 5:48 pm

On Wed, 2005-03-30 at 12:11:05 -0700, Bob Beck proclaimed...

> All unmitigated horseshit. Sorry. Look I use sudo, and I like it.
> but it is no substitute for allowing root login to a box, and is no
> substitute for "su", Sorry. They are different. I don't want to add a
> billion sudoable local accounts to run boxen in a distributed
> authentication environment. I want "root" local, and be done with it.
> I want root exposed if someone knows the root password, not if someone
> knows the root password or fourteen other idiot's passwords that are
> used every day. That's not more secure. If you want a useful diff to
> help stop this ridiculous discussion from propping up every little
> while. Here's what I propose:
>
>
> Index: dot.login
> ========================================
===========================
> RCS file: /cvs/src/etc/root/dot.login,v
> retrieving revision 1.10
> diff -u -r1.10 dot.login
> --- dot.login 2003/08/19 10:13:14 1.10
> +++ dot.login 2005/03/30 19:04:05
> @@ -12,6 +12,5 @@
> onintr
>
> if ( `logname` == `whoami` ) then
> - echo "Don't login as root, use su"
> echo "Read the afterboot(8) man page for administration advice."
> endif

I'd love to see that changed. I hate that XXXXing message too.

>
> Saying "don't login as root" is horseshit. It stems from the
> days when people sniffed the first packets of sessions so logging in
> as yourself and su-ing decreased the chance an attacker would see the
> root pw, and decreast the chance you got spoofed as to your telnet host
> target, You'd get your password spoofed but not root's pw. Gimme a
> XXXXing break. this is 2005 - We have ssh, used properly it's secure.
> used improperly none of this 1989 bullshit will make a damn bit of
> difference.

Wow, Bob's beer supply is dwindling! Must send Bob beer!

Barkley Vowk

2005-03-30, 5:48 pm

I've always thought something like this should be included with openbsd..

[3jane:~/diceware$] ./diceware
bliss layup lll spawn weigh jeep natty king ttl cress
[3jane:~/diceware$] ./diceware -w 4
stony reedy tater basis
[3jane:~/diceware$] ./diceware -w 4 -n 2
hm lure lend sac
putt ornery ablaze race


-- Snip Snip Makefile --
CC_FLAGS =
CC = gcc
LD = ld

SOURCES = diceware.c
HEADERS = diceware8k.h
OBJECTS = diceware.o

BINARIES = diceware

all: $(BINARIES)

diceware: diceware.o
$(CC) ${LD_FLAGS} ${CC_FLAGS} -o diceware diceware.o

clean:
rm *.o

-- Snip Snip diceware.c --
#include <stdlib.h>
#include <unistd.h>
#include "diceware8k.h"

int main(int argc, char * argv[]){
int words = 10; /* Print default 10 word passphrase */
int phrases = 1; /* Print one passphrase by default */
int i,k,c;
char ch;

while ((ch = getopt(argc, argv, "w:n:")) != -1){
switch(ch){
case 'w': /* number of words */
words = atoi(optarg);
if(words < 3){
printf("Not enough words to bother\n");
exit(0);
}
break;
case 'n': /* number of passphrases to generate */
phrases = atoi(optarg);
if(phrases < 1){
printf("Invalid number of passphrases\n");
exit(0);
}
break;
default:
printf("usage: %s [-w #words] [-n #passphrases]\n", argv[0])
exit(0);
}
}
srandomdev(); /* Seed PRNG from random device */

for(i = 0; i < phrases; i++){
for(k = 0; k < words; k++){
printf("%s ", getDiceWd(random()));
}
printf("\n");
}
}

-- Snip Snip diceware8k.h --
/* Diceware 8k Word List in C
Arnold G. Reinhold
2000-10-23 */

char* getDiceWd (int n);
char * Dicewds8k[] =
{"a",
"a&p",
"a's",
"a2",
"a3",
"a4",
"a5",
"a6",
"a7",
"a8",
"a9",
"aa",
"aaa",
"aaaa",
"aaron",
"ab",
"aba",
"ababa",
"aback",
"abase",
"abash",
"abate",
"abbas",
"abbe",
"abbey",
"abbot",
"abbott",
"abc",
"abe",
"abed",
"abel",
"abet",
"abide",
"abject",
"ablaze",
"able",
"abner",
"abo",
"abode",
"abort",
"about",
"above",
"abrade",
"abram",
"absorb",
"abuse",
"abut",
"abyss",
"ac",
"acadia",
"accra",
"accrue",
"ace",
"acetic",
"ache",
"acid",
"acidic",
"acm",
"acme",
"acorn",
"acre",
"acrid",
"act",
"acton",
"actor",
"acts",
"acuity",
"acute",
"ad",
"ada",
"adage",
"adagio",
"adair",
"adam",
"adams",
"adapt",
"add",
"added",
"addict",
"addis",
"addle",
"adele",
"aden",
"adept",
"adieu",
"adjust",
"adler",
"admit",
"admix",
"ado",
"adobe",
"adonis",
"adopt",
"adore",
"adorn",
"adult",
"advent",
"advert",
"advise",
"ae",
"aegis",
"aeneid",
"af",
"afar",
"affair",
"affine",
"affix",
"afire",
"afoot",
"afraid",
"africa",
"afro",
"aft",
"ag",
"again",
"agate",
"agave",
"age",
"agee",
"agenda",
"agent",
"agile",
"aging",
"agnes",
"agnew",
"ago",
"agone",
"agony",
"agree",
"ague",
"agway",
"ah",
"ahead",
"ahem",
"ahoy",
"ai",
"aid",
"aida",
"aide",
"aides",
"aiken",
"ail",
"aile",
"aim",
"ain't",
"ainu",
"air",
"aires",
"airman",
"airway",
"airy",
"aisle",
"aj",
"ajar",
"ajax",
"ak",
"akers",
"akin",
"akron",
"al",
"ala",
"alai",
"alamo",
"alan",
"alarm",
"alaska",
"alb",
"alba",
"album",
"alcoa",
"alden",
"alder",
"ale",
"alec",
"aleck",
"aleph",
"alert",
"alex",
"alexei",
"alga",
"algae",
"algal",
"alger",
"algol",
"ali",
"alia",
"alias",
"alibi",
"alice",
"alien",
"alight",
"align",
"alike",
"alive",
"all",
"allah",
"allan",
"allay",
"allen",
"alley",
"allied",
"allis",
"allot",
"allow",
"alloy",
"allure",
"ally",
"allyl",
"allyn",
"alma",
"almost",
"aloe",
"aloft",
"aloha",
"alone",
"along",
"aloof",
"aloud",
"alp",
"alpha",
"alps",
"also",
"alsop",
"altair",
"altar",
"alter",
"alto",
"alton",
"alum",
"alumni",
"alva",
"alvin",
"alway",
"am",
"ama",
"amass",
"amaze",
"amber",
"amble",
"ambush",
"amen",
"amend",
"ames",
"ami",
"amid",
"amide",
"amigo",
"amino",
"amiss",
"amity",
"amman",
"ammo",
"amoco",
"amok",
"among",
"amort",
"amos",
"amp",
"ampere",
"ampex",
"ample",
"amply",
"amra",
"amulet",
"amuse",
"amy",
"an",
"ana",
"and",
"andes",
"andre",
"andrew",
"andy",
"anent",
"anew",
"angel",
"angelo",
"anger",
"angie",
"angle",
"anglo",
"angola",
"angry",
"angst",
"angus",
"ani",
"anion",
"anise",
"anita",
"ankle",
"ann",
"anna",
"annal",
"anne",
"annex",
"annie",
"annoy",
"annul",
"annuli",
"annum",
"anode",
"ansi",
"answer",
"ant",
"ante",
"anti",
"antic",
"anton",
"anus",
"anvil",
"any",
"anyhow",
"anyway",
"ao",
"aok",
"aorta",
"ap",
"apart",
"apathy",
"ape",
"apex",
"aphid",
"aplomb",
"appeal",
"append",
"apple",
"apply",
"april",
"apron",
"apse",
"apt",
"aq",
"aqua",
"ar",
"arab",
"araby",
"arc",
"arcana",
"arch",
"archer",
"arden",
"ardent",
"are",
"area",
"arena",
"ares",
"argive",
"argo",
"argon",
"argot",
"argue",
"argus",
"arhat",
"arid",
"aries",
"arise",
"ark",
"arlen",
"arlene",
"arm",
"armco",
"army",
"arnold",
"aroma",
"arose",
"arpa",
"array",
"arrear",
"arrow",
"arson",
"art",
"artery",
"arthur",
"artie",
"arty",
"aruba",
"arum",
"aryl",
"as",
"ascend",
"ash",
"ashen",
"asher",
"ashley",
"ashy",
"asia",
"aside",
"ask",
"askew",
"asleep",
"aspen",
"aspire",
"XXX",
"assai",
"assam",
"assay",
"asset",
"assort",
"assure",
"aster",
"astm",
"astor",
"astral",
"at",
"at&t",
"ate",
"athens",
"atlas",
"atom",
"atomic",
"atone",
"atop",
"attic",
"attire",
"au",
"aubrey",
"audio",
"audit",
"aug",
"auger",
"augur",
"august",
"auk",
"aunt",
"aura",
"aural",
"auric",
"austin",
"auto",
"autumn",
"av",
"avail",
"ave",
"aver",
"avert",
"avery",
"aviate",
"avid",
"avis",
"aviv",
"avoid",
"avon",
"avow",
"aw",
"await",
"awake",
"award",
"aware",
"awash",
"away",
"awe",
"awful",
"awl",
"awn",
"awoke",
"awry",
"ax",
"axe",
"axes",
"axial",
"axiom",
"axis",
"axle",
"axon",
"ay",
"aye",
"ayers",
"az",
"aztec",
"azure",
"b",
"b's",
"b2",
"b3",
"b4",
"b5",
"b6",
"b7",
"b8",
"b9",
"ba",
"babe",
"babel",
"baby",
"bach",
"back",
"backup",
"bacon",
"bad",
"bade",
"baden",
"badge",
"baffle",
"bag",
"baggy",
"bah",
"bahama",
"bail",
"baird",
"bait",
"bake",
"baku",
"bald",
"baldy",
"bale",
"bali",
"balk",
"balkan",
"balky",
"ball",
"balled",
"ballot",
"balm",
"balmy",
"balsa",
"bam",
"bambi",
"ban",
"banal",
"band",
"bandit",
"bandy",
"bane",
"bang",
"banish",
"banjo",
"bank",
"banks",
"bantu",
"bar",
"barb",
"bard",
"bare",
"barfly",
"barge",
"bark",
"barley",
"barn",
"barnes",
"baron",
"barony",
"barr",
"barre",
"barry",
"barter",
"barth",
"barton",
"basal",
"base",
"basel",
"bash",
"basic",
"basil",
"basin",
"basis",
"bask",
"bass",
"bassi",
"basso",
"baste",
"bat",
"batch",
"bate",
"bater",
"bates",
"bath",
"bathe",
"batik",
"baton",
"bator",
"batt",
"bauble",
"baud",
"bauer",
"bawd",
"bawdy",
"bawl",
"baxter",
"bay",
"bayda",
"bayed",
"bayou",
"bazaar",
"bb",
"bbb",
"bbbb",
"bc",
"bcd",
"bd",
"be",
"beach",
"bead",
"beady",
"beak",
"beam",
"bean",
"bear",
"beard",
"beast",
"beat",
"beau",
"beauty",
"beaux",
"bebop",
"becalm",
"beck",
"becker",
"becky",
"bed",
"bedim",
"bee",
"beebe",
"beech",
"beef",
"beefy",
"been",
"beep",
"beer",
"beet",
"befall",
"befit",
"befog",
"beg",
"began",
"beget",
"beggar",
"begin",
"begun",
"behind",
"beige",
"being",
"beirut",
"bel",
"bela",
"belch",
"belfry",
"belie",
"bell",
"bella",
"belle",
"belly",
"below",
"belt",
"bema",
"beman",
"bemoan",
"ben",
"bench",
"bend",
"bender",
"benny",
"bent",
"benz",
"berea",
"bereft",
"beret",
"berg",
"berlin",
"bern",
"berne",
"bernet",
"berra",
"berry",
"bert",
"berth",
"beryl",
"beset",
"bess",
"bessel",
"best",
"bestir",
"bet",
"beta",
"betel",
"beth",
"bethel",
"betsy",
"bette",
"betty",
"bevel",
"bevy",
"beware",
"bey",
"bezel",
"bf",
"bg",
"bh",
"bhoy",
"bi",
"bias",
"bib",
"bibb",
"bible",
"bicep",
"biceps",
"bid",
"biddy",
"bide",
"bien",
"big",
"biggs",
"bigot",
"bile",
"bilge",
"bilk",
"bill",
"billow",
"billy",
"bin",
"binary",
"bind",
"bing",
"binge",
"bingle",
"bini",
"biota",
"birch",
"bird",
"birdie",
"birth",
"bison",
"bisque",
"bit",
"XXXXX",
"bite",
"bitt",
"bitten",
"biz",
"bizet",
"bj",
"bk",
"bl",
"blab",
"black",
"blade",
"blair",
"blake",
"blame",
"blanc",
"bland",
"blank",
"blare",
"blast",
"blat",
"blatz",
"blaze",
"bleak",
"bleat",
"bled",
"bleed",
"blend",
"bless",
"blest",
"blew",
"blimp",
"blind",
"blink",
"blinn",
"blip",
"bliss",
"blithe",
"blitz",
"bloat",
"blob",
"bloc",
"bloch",
"block",
"bloke",
"blond",
"blonde",
"blood",
"bloom",
"bloop",
"blot",
"blotch",
"blow",
"blown",
"blue",
"bluet",
"bluff",
"blum",
"blunt",
"blur",
"blurt",
"blush",
"blvd",
"blythe",
"bm",
"bmw",
"bn",
"bo",
"boa",
"boar",
"board",
"boast",
"boat",
"bob",
"bobbin",
"bobby",
"bobcat",
"boca",
"bock",
"bode",
"body",
"bog",
"bogey",
"boggy",
"bogus",
"bogy",
"bohr",
"boil",
"bois",
"boise",
"bold",
"bole",
"bolo",
"bolt",
"bomb",
"bombay",
"bon",
"bona",
"bond",
"bone",
"bong",
"bongo",
"bonn",
"bonus",
"bony",
"bonze",
"boo",
"booby",
"boogie",
"book",
"booky",
"boom",
"boon",
"boone",
"boor",
"boost",
"boot",
"booth",
"booty",
"booze",
"bop",
"borax",
"border",
"bore",
"borg",
"boric",
"boris",
"born",
"borne",
"borneo",
"boron",
"bosch",
"bose",
"bosom",
"boson",
"boss",
"boston",
"botch",
"both",
"bottle",
"bough",
"bouncy",
"bound",
"bourn",
"bout",
"bovine",
"bow",
"bowel",
"bowen",
"bowie",
"bowl",
"box",
"boxy",
"boy",
"boyar",
"boyce",
"boyd",
"boyle",
"bp",
"bq",
"br",
"brace",
"bract",
"brad",
"brady",
"brae",
"brag",
"bragg",
"braid",
"brain",
"brainy",
"brake",
"bran",
"brand",
"brandt",
"brant",
"brash",
"brass",
"brassy",
"braun",
"brave",
"bravo",
"brawl",
"bray",
"bread",
"break",
"bream",
"breath",
"bred",
"breed",
"breeze",
"bremen",
"brent",
"brest",
"brett",
"breve",
"brew",
"brian",
"briar",
"bribe",
"brice",
"brick",
"bride",
"brief",
"brig",
"briggs",
"brim",
"brine",
"bring",
"brink",
"briny",
"brisk",
"broad",
"brock",
"broil",
"broke",
"broken",
"bronx",
"brood",
"brook",
"brooke",
"broom",
"broth",
"brow",
"brown",
"browse",
"bruce",
"bruit",
"brunch",
"bruno",
"brunt",
"brush",
"brute",
"bryan",
"bryant",
"bryce",
"bryn",
"bs",
"bstj",
"bt",
"btl",
"bu",
"bub",
"buck",
"bud",
"budd",
"buddy",
"budge",
"buena",
"buenos",
"buff",
"bug",
"buggy",
"bugle",
"buick",
"build",
"built",
"bulb",
"bulge",
"bulk",
"bulky",
"bull",
"bully",
"bum",
"bump",
"bun",
"bunch",
"bundy",
"bunk",
"bunny",
"bunt",
"bunyan",
"buoy",
"burch",
"bureau",
"buret",
"burg",
"buried",
"burke",
"burl",
"burly",
"burma",
"burn",
"burnt",
"burp",
"burr",
"burro",
"burst",
"burt",
"burton",
"burtt",
"bury",
"bus",
"busch",
"bush",
"bushel",
"bushy",
"buss",
"bust",
"busy",
"but",
"butane",
"butch",
"buteo",
"butt",
"butte",
"butyl",
"buxom",
"buy",
"buyer",
"buzz",
"buzzy",
"bv",
"bw",
"bx",
"by",
"bye",
"byers",
"bylaw",
"byline",
"byrd",
"byrne",
"byron",
"byte",
"byway",
"byword",
"bz",
"c",
"c's",
"c2",
"c3",
"c4",
"c5",
"c6",
"c7",
"c8",
"c9",
"ca",
"cab",
"cabal",
"cabin",
"cable",
"cabot",
"cacao",
"cache",
"cacm",
"cacti",
"caddy",
"cadent",
"cadet",
"cadre",
"cady",
"cafe",
"cage",
"cagey",
"cahill",
"caiman",
"cain",
"caine",
"cairn",
"cairo",
"cake",
"cal",
"calder",
"caleb",
"calf",
"call",
"calla",
"callus",
"calm",
"calve",
"cam",
"camber",
"came",
"camel",
"cameo",
"camp",
"can",
"can't",
"canal",
"canary",
"cancer",
"candle",
"candy",
"cane",
"canis",
"canna",
"cannot",
"canny",
"canoe",
"canon",
"canopy",
"cant",
"canto",
"canton",
"cap",
"cape",
"caper",
"capo",
"car",
"carbon",
"card",
"care",
"caress",
"caret",
"carey",
"cargo",
"carib",
"carl",
"carla",
"carlo",
"carne",
"carob",
"carol",
"carp",
"carpet",
"carr",
"carrie",
"carry",
"carson",
"cart",
"carte",
"caruso",
"carve",
"case",
"casey",
"cash",
"cashew",
"cask",
"casket",
"cast",
"caste",
"cat",
"catch",
"cater",
"cathy",
"catkin",
"catsup",
"cauchy",
"caulk",
"cause",
"cave",
"cavern",
"cavil",
"cavort",
"caw",
"cayuga",
"cb",
"cbs",
"cc",
"ccc",
"cccc",
"cd",
"cdc",
"ce",
"cease",
"cecil",
"cedar",
"cede",
"ceil",
"celia",
"cell",
"census",
"cent",
"ceres",
"cern",
"cetera",
"cetus",
"cf",
"cg",
"ch",
"chad",
"chafe",
"chaff",
"chai",
"chain",
"chair",
"chalk",
"champ",
"chance",
"chang",
"chant",
"chao",
"chaos",
"chap",
"chapel",
"char",
"chard",
"charm",
"chart",
"chase",
"chasm",
"chaste",
"chat",
"chaw",
"cheap",
"cheat",
"check",
"cheek",
"cheeky",
"cheer",
"chef",
"chen",
"chert",
"cherub",
"chess",
"chest",
"chevy",
"chew",
"chi",
"chic",
"chick",
"chide",
"chief",
"child",
"chile",
"chili",
"chill",
"chilly",
"chime",
"chin",
"china",
"chine",
"chink",
"chip",
"chirp",
"chisel",
"chit",
"chive",
"chock",
"choir",
"choke",
"chomp",
"chop",
"chopin",
"choral",
"chord",
"chore",
"chose",
"chosen",
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":",
";",
"=",
"?",
"??",
"@" };

char* getDiceWd (int n) {
return Dicewds8k[n & 0X1fff];
}

-----------------------------------------------------------
Barkley C. Vowk -- Systems Analyst -- university of Alberta
Math Sciences Department - Barkley.Vowk@math.ualberta.ca
Office: CAB642A, 780-492-4064

Opinions expressed are the responsibility of the author and
may not reflect the opinions of others or reality.

On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, [ISO-8859-1] Sigfred Heversen wrote:

> Michael Hamerski wrote:
> [snip]
>
> For this http://world.std.com/~reinhold/diceware.html is useful.
>
> /Sigfred

Matthew Clarke

2005-03-30, 5:48 pm

mercredi, le 30 mars, 2005, Sigfred Heversen nous a dit ceci:

> Michael Hamerski wrote:
> [snip]
>
> For this http://world.std.com/~reinhold/diceware.html is useful.

There's also ppgen, which has been in ports since OpenBSD 2.8.

--
For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public
relations, for nature cannot be fooled.
-- Richard P. Feynman

Fredrik Widlund

2005-03-31, 7:45 am

Cedric Berger wrote:

> Fredrik Widlund wrote:
>
>
> Of course. You don't add chains. You add Layers.
> This is a pretty basic concept.
> Cedric

It is a basic concept, relevant in a basic context, teaching people
without a deeper understand, about basic security. Sadly it also
commonly leads to misunderstandings like in your case. Repeating the
password prompt twice, or ten times, doesn't actually increase security.
Having two passwords in serial, or 10 passwords in serial, doesn't
actually increase security. Since 10 passwords are hard to remember, it
will probably decrease security. Getting root access using sudo between
10 other accounts doesn't actually increase security. Security will
still fail with the first account, or any single one of the others. You
will increase the attacking surface, and probably confuse people with
the "illusion" of security, making them protect the initial credentials
less, and hiding the real weak points.

People who do security by exclaiming "obvious" "basic" "truths", like
security is like an onion, etc, without a deeper understanding and then
leave it at that, should really spend some time trying to understand the
reasoning behind them or stop pushing them on other people.

Regards,
Fredrik Widlund

Sean Kennedy

2005-04-02, 5:47 pm

>Subject: Re: Educate users the proper ways from the beginning.[vbcol=seagreen]
>Cedric Berger wrote:

He Said, She Said, and so on, and so on, and so on.


Here is what I learned about security.


Compartment as much as you can,
Minimise exposure,
Be Vigilant,
Be Knowlegable,
Know Thy Enemy,
Know thyself.
Keep your friends close,
Keep your ememies closer.

Really a secure machine is only as good as the persons who use it.
So security comes down to Human Error, which finds new innovations
to overwhelm, and outpace the ability of the Smart, to defend against
the stupid.


A basic radio transmitter on a PS/2 Keyboard interface would expose
in plain text a password used for "root' access without ssh, telnet, or
even ftp being in the loop.


For me, I am just looking forward to purchasing the IBM t42 with the
biometric interface,
at least there, the ability to "brute" force a passcode is that more
difficult, even
with Wim Van Eck asking the question : is it secure?

Thorsten Glaser

2005-04-03, 5:46 pm

Sean Kennedy dixit:

> For me, I am just looking forward to purchasing the IBM t42 with the biometric
> interface,

http://erdgeist.org/archive/46halbe/s-klasse9.jpg

No comment.

//mirabile

Thierry Deval

2005-04-03, 5:46 pm

On Apr 3, 2005, at 21:26, Thorsten Glaser wrote:
> Sean Kennedy dixit:
>
> http://erdgeist.org/archive/46halbe/s-klasse9.jpg

While the message is clear, the photo is faked.
The guy has his finger in a hole. ;-)

Martin Reindl

2005-04-03, 5:46 pm

Miod Vallat <miod@online.fr> wrote:

>
> Can the hole be considered as remote?

Nope, can be exploited via finger(1).

Sean Kennedy

2005-04-03, 8:47 pm

>Subject: Re: Educate users the proper ways from the beginning.
>Sean Kennedy dixit:
>biometric
>http://erdgeist.org/archive/46halbe/s-klasse9.jpg
>No comment.
>//mirabile

-rofl.

Yes, THAT topic of Compartmentalization came up too... Tee Heee.

"It would appear you Compartmentaized your fingers into the steel drawer..."

Like I said, I'm only looking forward to this, like having on-board crypto,
its a nice to have.

Mind you, a fellow I know who works for a Commercial Satellite operator
suggested that
those employees who were employable for the Conditional Access department,
should be chipped
with the same ID chips used for Dogs and Cats, as a lark.

He should have kept his mouth shut, he said the damn things hurt for 2-weeks
after being implanted...

-sean

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