| Curious George 2006-03-07, 2:46 am |
| On 6 Mar 2006 16:32:20 -0800, "w_tom" <w_tom1@usa.net> wrote:
> Provide numbers from a plug-in protector's numerical specs.
>Subjective claims of "surge filering and protection" provide nothing
>useful. How close to zero need that 'filtering and protection' be
>to be zero? Provided are no numbers because even the manufacturer
>does not claim effective protection.
Since I'm not posing as an electrical engineer, why don't YOU tell us
what specs would be required to accomplish that protection?
> A $25,000 warranty number contains so many exceptions that only the
>naive would even consider that number. Where are $25,000 warranty
>details? Meanwhile protectors that come from responsible
>manufacturers AND that provide effective protection don't appeal to the
>naive. Effective solutions make an essential connection to earth AND
>don't hype a big buck warranty.
It may be naive to expect good chance of a payout but APC rackmount
SmartUPS, for example, is widely considered reputable with those
promises.
APC Currents magazine regularly include claims of lightening
protection, including testimonials. If their products in fact don't
that constitutes false advertising and still goes against a
significant part of your argument.
> Meanwhile what are the incoming and outgoing path through a hard
>drive?
the hard drive motor and interface are on the PSU's 12v & 5v rails,
and consequently the electrical input, just like basically everything
else on a computer. Typically the HDD metal case is grounded via
direct mounting to the metal, grounded chassis. All PCB boards,
including the one on the HDD, are isolated from the case's ground.
That's why you can discharge a static shock on the case without frying
anything. Yes current will jump more with the power of a lightening
bolt, but HDDs aren't so unique or ungrounded as you claim.
>Without both, then no damage can occur. If both paths exist,
>the computer was built defectively.
Now you have a problem. Your basically ungrounded PCB's were damaged
while the grounded HDD was not.
> Provided was an example of how a plug-in protector previously
>contributed to damage of adjacent computer and to other computers on a
>network. In each case, the incoming and outgoing transient path was
>defined by "replacing" components. Each damaged component had an
>incoming and outgoing path.
I see you avoided my questions- the first logical places to look in
the event you described.
> Yes the word "replacing" was correct.
> Do you understand repair at IC level? We "replace". Why would we
No you didn't. Such an effort is an obscene waste of time. That's
why even manufacturer's don't bother 99% of the time. Most IC's
aren't end-user replaceable. Even if you can there are faster more
accurate ways of tracing the source of the surge. So if you had that
level of knowledge you wouldn't have troubleshot that way.
>"retrace" ICs? How does one 'retrace' an IC? Again demonstrates why
replacing IC's makes less sense. Tracing the paths to fried IC's is
at least somewhat related.
>ineffective plug-in protectors get promoted without technical
>knowledge. ICs got "replaced" to trace that surge, and to repair
>damage that was made easier by an adjacent, plug-in protector.
still gibberish.
> Another statement demonstrates you don't understand how electronics
>are damaged. You said:
>
> You are confusing a trivial voltage problem with destructive
>transients. What counts is how a transient finds earth ground via the
>electronics - the incoming and outgoing paths.
>Surge protectors do nothing for what you have described.
I think you are confused. Let's say that's true; no surge protectors
provide any protection. Then the fact that adjacent computers were
damaged is because they are on the same circuit. The power strip
didn't augment or create damage; it simply was an entryway and one of
the possible grounds for the electricity. So the damage was the same
as if fevering was plugged into the same outlet or outlet splitter.
But you have another problem. You seem to be translating a bad
experience to an inexpensive power strip to every power protection
product on the market and ignoring you're lecture on quality.
> Electronics are damaged when transients such as lightning find earth
>via transistors. Appliances already have internal protection making
>anything on its power cord irrelevant (and yet hyped by myths). So
That's an overstatement
>that appliance internal protection is not overwhelmed, install properly
>earthed 'whole house' protectors. What is THE most critical
>'system' component? Single point earth ground. What do plug-in
>protectors not discuss? Earthing. Plug-in protectors don't even
>claim to provide effective protection. Why then discuss
>earthing?Honesty would only harm sales.
No that's wrong. They sell them as devices that shunt extreme
voltages to the ground. Furthermore when you're considering a PC on a
desk, on the 2nd floor of a wooden structure, the best & fastest path
to earth is the ground in the wall.
> Numerous ineffective products are quickly identified. 1) No
>dedicated wire to earth ground.
Never seen one like that for a computer. The worst of the worst are
not relevant to whether ANY can do it.
>2) Manufacturer avoids all discussion
>about earthing. How many points do plug-in protectors meet? All?
>Remember that plug-in UPS that "claims to do all"? It too meets
>both points for ineffective.
>
> Effective protectors that don't have brand names such as APC,
>Tripplite, Belkin, or Isobar. Effective protectors come with
>responsible names such as Square D, Siemens, GE, Polyphaser,
>Intermatic, Levition, and Cutler-Hammer. Does price define effective
>protection? Many assume so when they pay $100 for a Monster Cable
>product that is similar to a $10 protector sold in the grocery store.
>Does price defines quality? Of course not. Quality is defined by
>those numerical technical specifications. So where are those numbers?
Being overpriced & "similar" doesn't mean there is no difference.
> Discussion is about protecting the backup - in particular a disk
>drive. Its also about protecting so that backup need not be the only
>alternative. Its called 'whole house' protection. Sold with
>responsible manufacture brand names, costs less, and available in Home
>Depot, Lowes, and most electrical supply stores.
'whole house' protection has nothing to do with backup. It is not an
"alternative" by any measure. You need backups even if you are
totally successfully immune from lightening or other surges. You
should have 'whole house' protection even if you don't have a
computer.
> How earth ground is installed - factors such as wire length, sharp
>wire bends, splices, etc - determine whether a building is sufficiently
>earthed. Sufficient earthing means it meets and exceeds post 1990
>electrical earthing codes. It means the homeowner - not the utility
>and not the electrician - takes responsibility to exceed post 1990
>earthing requirements. What year was your building constructed?
Totally irrelevant to this already OT discussion. If I already
upgraded it, that's an even less relevant question.
[vbcol=seagreen]
> Protection adjacent to a computer just is not effective and yet sold
>to the naive on subjective halfs. Safety grounds on wall receptacles
>also is not earth ground. Numbers demonstrate why. Installing and
>earthing a 'whole house' protector protects the backup system, the
>computer, and everything else in a building for about $1 per protected
>appliance. No plug-in protector manufacturer makes such claims. A
>protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Essential when
>backup is important.
>
>Curious George wrote:
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