Data Storage - Any forums out there about SAN's ?.

Author

Any forums out there about SAN's ?.

Fatboy40

2004-12-16, 6:26 pm

I was wondering if anyone here knows of a forum/bbs where people discuss
SAN's ?. I'm having trouble finding info on this subject, specifically about
EMC hardware.

Thanks.

Clive.

fakeemail@lookbelow.com

2004-12-16, 6:26 pm

On 2004-12-14, Fatboy40 <no> wrote:
> I was wondering if anyone here knows of a forum/bbs where people discuss
> SAN's ?. I'm having trouble finding info on this subject, specifically about
> EMC hardware.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Clive.
>
>

I have been considering starting one up actually... something that is
independent, and free... and not run by some big publishing group etc..
something more like arstechnica than searchstorage.com or
byteandswitch.com

Wanna help be a moderator?

dxhATyahooREMOVETHISSTUFFDOTcom

oracle

2004-12-16, 6:26 pm

The only forums about this sort of stuff that I'm aware of are on TekTips.
I've visited it a couple of times and there have been a couple of useful
postings.

Anything I can help you with specifically?. I work with EMC
hardware/software.

Brian.
"Fatboy40" <no one here, sorry> wrote in message
news:41beb4f2$0$51961$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
>I was wondering if anyone here knows of a forum/bbs where people discuss
>SAN's ?. I'm having trouble finding info on this subject, specifically
>about EMC hardware.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Clive.
>

Fatboy40

2004-12-16, 6:26 pm

Drink and Oracle, thanks for the offers

I'm just really researching things at the moment. I'm moving the law firm
that I work at to Exchange 2003 next year from our current e-mail system and
could probably include a SAN for it in the budget.

At the moment I trying to find out as much info as I can as I've never setup
a SAN before, it seems quite straight forward really as long as you buy
hardware that's compatible with one another.

So far it either an EMC or HP SAN however we use Dell servers and it seems
to be impossible to find info on using HP kit with Dell servers. I suppose
it's just a case of buying the right hardware e.g. HP disk array/McData
switches/Qlogic HBA's for example.

I'd like to use EMC hardware as everyone I know who uses it says it's easily
the best however I do have to consider the price (I could save money going
for a SATA SAN but there's no way I'd reccomend that solution to any serious
business).

Clive.

"oracle" <oracle@isomontheweb.com> wrote in message
news:1bNvd.11174$%p1.969149@news20.bellglobal.com...
> The only forums about this sort of stuff that I'm aware of are on TekTips.
> I've visited it a couple of times and there have been a couple of useful
> postings.
>
> Anything I can help you with specifically?. I work with EMC
> hardware/software.
>
> Brian.
> "Fatboy40" <no one here, sorry> wrote in message
> news:41beb4f2$0$51961$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
>
>

Cappy

2004-12-16, 6:26 pm

You should think about using refurbished equipment for your SAN it will
cut the cost by more than 70 percent, and still comes with all the same
warranties as if it was brand new. Take a look at www.bltrading.com
and if you see anything or have any questions just send me an email
take care
Joe
Fatboy40 wrote:
> Drink and Oracle, thanks for the offers

Fatboy40

2004-12-16, 6:26 pm

Joe,

I'm in the U.K. so I'm afraid you couldn't help. I didn't think about refurb
kit however a quick search on Google returned only a couple of people in the
UK who do this and the kit they sell is quite old EMC stuff.

"Cappy" <j.caparrotta@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1103117826.925356.156300@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> You should think about using refurbished equipment for your SAN it will
> cut the cost by more than 70 percent, and still comes with all the same
> warranties as if it was brand new. Take a look at www.bltrading.com
> and if you see anything or have any questions just send me an email
> take care
> Joe

Cappy

2004-12-16, 6:26 pm

Hi we work with other companies in the UK so if want a price quote I
can get one for you just email me at jcaparrotta AT bltrading.com and
and we will help you out.

Fatboy40 wrote:
> Joe,
>
> I'm in the U.K. so I'm afraid you couldn't help. I didn't think about
refurb
> kit however a quick search on Google returned only a couple of people
in the[vbcol=seagreen]
> UK who do this and the kit they sell is quite old EMC stuff.
>
> "Cappy" <j.caparrotta@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:1103117826.925356.156300@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
will[vbcol=seagreen]
same[vbcol=seagreen]
www.bltrading.com[vbcol=seagreen]

Wolf

2004-12-16, 6:26 pm

"Fatboy40" <no one here, sorry> wrote in message
news:41bffeef$0$93676$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
> Drink and Oracle, thanks for the offers

>
> I'm just really researching things at the moment. I'm moving the law firm
> that I work at to Exchange 2003 next year from our current e-mail system
and
> could probably include a SAN for it in the budget.
>
> At the moment I trying to find out as much info as I can as I've never
setup
> a SAN before, it seems quite straight forward really as long as you buy
> hardware that's compatible with one another.
>
> So far it either an EMC or HP SAN however we use Dell servers and it seems
> to be impossible to find info on using HP kit with Dell servers. I suppose
> it's just a case of buying the right hardware e.g. HP disk array/McData
> switches/Qlogic HBA's for example.
>
> I'd like to use EMC hardware as everyone I know who uses it says it's
easily
> the best however I do have to consider the price (I could save money going
> for a SATA SAN but there's no way I'd reccomend that solution to any
serious
> business).

ATA is tier-2 storage. That being said, and since we are on a beer budget,
we
have purchased a lot of ATA storage this last year and a half to be topped
off
with 30TB more by the end of the month. We chew up disk storage like crazy.
They have more issues than fibre drives but since we have a good support
contract
we have had good results.

We have just purchased and EMC CX700 w/ 30TB of ATA. We have been
testing a CX500 for the last 3 months in our environment and found it fast
and
reliable. We lost one drive early on-not bad for a SAN that lives being
beaten
up 24x7.

--
Wolf
----------------------------------------------------------------
Please post all responses to UseNet. All email cheerfully and automagically
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flux

2004-12-16, 6:26 pm

In article <2e6wd.322$iC4.307@newssvr30.news.prodigy.com>,
"Wolf" <wolfdotcom@hotmail.com> wrote:

> ATA is tier-2 storage. That being said, and since we are on a beer budget,

Here we go again.

flux

2004-12-17, 2:45 am

In article <7uh3s09nmcu2j0ijpipja5bvk299v1apbb@4ax.com>,
Malcolm Weir <malc@gelt.org> wrote:

> The silly little boy doesn't understand the difference between the
> Toshiba 1.8 inch MK2004GAL drives used in an iPod (3600rpm) and the
> drives used in high-end storage (15,000rpm).

The difference is that Toshiba is like a Timex, takes a licking and
keeps on ticking. Now trying throwing one of these unnamed "high-end
storage" devices on the couch on a regular basis-sometimes while it's
spinning--and seeing how long it lasts.

flux

2004-12-17, 2:45 am

In article <r0i3s0d1sfao1fri5vttqg9hb5e536loo0@4ax.com>,
Malcolm Weir <malc@gelt.org> wrote:

> The company that I'm using to post this tried a few. They sucked.
> And Apple has no idea how to support serious operations. Their
> response seems to be "reformat/reinit and try again".

An obviously fabricated tale.

flux

2004-12-17, 2:45 am

In article <41c176ca$0$51966$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>,
"Fatboy40" <no one here, sorry> wrote:

> I've never heard of the Apple Xserve RAID but I'm glad I now know about it,
> for the price it seems damn good. It has most of the redundancy features I'm
> after however it doesn't look like the controller of the Xserve has a backup

You can two controllers, but I don't think they talk to each other, so
there is no failover if one controller just quits.

flux

2004-12-17, 2:45 am

In article <41c1fc79$0$71691$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>,
"Fatboy40" <no one here, sorry> wrote:

> I've got to ask, why exactly did they suck, was the hardware prone to fail

Apple's consumer level hardware is regarded as the best in the industry
by Consumer Reports' readers. I don't know there are long term reviews
of the enterprise level hardware.

> or was Apple support just piss poor ?. If they're a pile of crap then surely
> Apple must know this, there must be some people out there who are happy with
> it ?.

Apple's consumer level tech support is regarded as the best in the
industry by Consumer Reports' readers. I don't know if their enterprise
level support has been reviewed. Apple also has a public forum for the
Xserve hardware and RAID at
http://discussions.info.apple.com/w...F0I.0@.3bb84b79

I imagine if there were unhappy customers, at least some would show up
here to let Apple know it.

Malcolm Weir

2004-12-17, 2:45 am

On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 21:24:25 -0000, "Fatboy40" <no one here, sorry>
wrote:

>On paper they seem like a reasonable bit of kit with dual everything (PSU's,
>controllers etc.).
>
>I've got to ask, why exactly did they suck, was the hardware prone to fail
>or was Apple support just piss poor ?. If they're a pile of crap then surely
>Apple must know this, there must be some people out there who are happy with
>it ?.

RAID looks easy, but it isn't. The tricks lie in determining *how*
you know you've got a failure, what you do when you detect a possible
failure, what you do when you get a second fault, etc.

One common mistake that novice vendors often make is to omit a
mechanism to force a disk *back* into being valid after they've marked
it bad. If you've got a bad (set of) sector(s) somewhere, a common
error is to fault the entire array and make it inaccessible, despite
the fact that the rest of the disk isn't bad, and the problem sectors
lie in a chunk of disk space that you can happily ignore (e.g. it's
static data that you can recreate).

These things happen... and then aggravated by inept support who
haven't quite grown out of the "reformat and start again" mindset...

Malc.

Malcolm Weir

2004-12-17, 2:45 am

On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 05:26:25 GMT, flux <support@fluxsoft.com> wrote:

>In article <r0i3s0d1sfao1fri5vttqg9hb5e536loo0@4ax.com>,
> Malcolm Weir <malc@gelt.org> wrote:
>
>
>An obviously fabricated tale.

Flux is not only infantile, but stupid and a liar.

Try this, you idiot:
http://www.computerworld.co.nz/cw.n...C256E27000D5707

And then apologize for your lie.

Malc.

Malcolm Weir

2004-12-17, 2:45 am

On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 04:56:52 GMT, flux <support@fluxsoft.com> wrote:

>In article <7uh3s09nmcu2j0ijpipja5bvk299v1apbb@4ax.com>,
> Malcolm Weir <malc@gelt.org> wrote:
>
>
>The difference is that Toshiba is like a Timex, takes a licking and
>keeps on ticking. Now trying throwing one of these unnamed "high-end
>storage" devices on the couch on a regular basis-sometimes while it's
>spinning--and seeing how long it lasts.

Unnamed? Are you *really* this ignorant?

Hitachi and Seagate are the common 15K drives.

As to your "point", why would anyone vaguely competent throw
enterprise storage on "the couch"? Where would a competent data
center employee *find* a couch in a data center?

And I'm mightily amused at the idea of using 20gb or 40gb 3600 rpm
drives as data center storage!

Still, that shows what sort of environment this flux kid has knowledge
of!

Malc.

Per Ekman

2004-12-17, 7:45 am

Malcolm Weir <malc@gelt.org> writes:

> On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 05:26:25 GMT, flux <support@fluxsoft.com> wrote:
>
[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> Flux is not only infantile, but stupid and a liar.
>
> Try this, you idiot:
> http://www.computerworld.co.nz/cw.n...C256E27000D5707
>
> And then apologize for your lie.

A relevant quote here is "Never argue with an idiot. They drag you
down to their level and then beat you with experience."

Ignore him and move on.

*p

Fatboy40

2004-12-17, 7:45 am

Faeandar,

For me it's all about the best components at the cheapest price and to be
honest it really should be SCSI for the disks otherwise I know I'm asking
for trouble.

My no. 1 choice is the EMC CX300 but I think that's out of my league, my no.
2 now seems to be the HP MSA1000 (specifically the kit version they produce
with a switch and two HBA's (which seem to be rebranded Qlogic)).

I think I'll start a seperate thread about the HP hardware to see if anyone
has any opinions on it (and use Google Groups for research), for around
£10,000 I could setup a pretty good SAN using the MSA1000 and HP
resellers/support companies are all over the place and at a later date add
backup switches/controllers etc..

"Faeandar" <mr_castalot@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:0q24s01ikjfil2433tanl268n9vjlgtugn@
4ax.com...
> On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 09:39:24 -0000, "Fatboy40" <no one here, sorry>
> wrote:
>
> I think this is the perfect forum, and honestly it could use more
> traffic so post away....
>
> I didn't catch how large you wanted to make this but unless you're
> really tied to EMC or HP there are alot of other array mfg's that make
> very good array's. And all that makes a SAN is the switch, so buy
> what you can get or what is supported. Brocade, McData, and cisco fit
> just about everyone's support matrix.
>
> ~F

Wolf

2004-12-17, 7:45 am

"flux" <support@fluxsoft.com> wrote in message
news:support-9523E6.06214616122004@news.verizon.net...
> In article <41c154f1$0$331$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>,
> "Fatboy40" <no one here, sorry> wrote:
>
> Years ago, I would say there was a significant distinction between the
> "high-end" drives and the "low-end" But "low-end" drives are much better
> and are really no longer "low-end". For example, even the "low-end"
> drives used in consumer devices like Tivo and the iPod have decent
> throughput and reliability. Tivo is intended to operate 24/7 and iPods
> are MP3 players, which are prone to being dropped and tossed around.
>
> Anyway, here is an excellent article about a "beer-budget" SAN:
> http://www.nwc.com/showitem.jhtml?docid=1519ws1

I am not a storage guru, I run a world class hpc cluster and have had
to get a grip on storage in our environment. Most storage vendors we
have talked to call them "tier-2" storage and we have talked to a bunch.
Our leveraged storage group calls them tier-2 storage (usually looking
down their nose) and most of my peer in other companies call them the
same thing. So I will most likely keep calling them that.

While I think it is beginning to change, corporations-specially large
ones have a tendency not to want to use ATA drives for their primary
storage needs. Ask around and you will be told how these drives just
do not measure up to fibre and SCSI drives. You can never get fired
getting a Fibre Netapp or a Fibre SAN.

Cluster guys are statistics whores. We analyze and test everything to
death before it goes on-line-cause one you are on-line you can't stop
production. Part of our acceptance procedure is to run anything we get
through a beater job composed of a home grown disk tester that keeps
statistics and an mpi linpack that kill memory. We always bust cache
when testing performance. And we run it for at least 7 days-even under
unbearable pressures to get it on-line.

We have some 150TB going on 180TB - what we will retire. Unlike
most environments we ride our storage very very hard-and of course we
have the stats to prove it! We also do not do any backups-because with
this amount of data it is actually easier to recreate it (and a whole lot
cheaper) so not losing data is very important.

Here's what I have learned about ATA drives do fail a little more often.
But if we have our vendor burn it in, and we run through our process
(cluster guys are also very anal about the process) we will fail the weak
drives (and CPU and memory etc) before they go into production. Make
sure you scrub the disks (3ware calls it verify) on a weekly basis.

Going backwards, we have a CX500 test box w/ 18TB which we have
beating like a red-headed step child with 2 Opterons. We have pushed
some 330MB on on controller. This box helped get a good build for the
head nodes and for the last 90 days have spent their entire lives in our
office
getting hammered. We lost one drive the first week.

Going back over this year, we have 50TB of Netapp R200. We have had
to replace 4 disks. 2 failed, 2 were going to fail.

Over 18 months, 50TB of commodity ATA drives w/ 3ware cards purchased
30 and then 20 6 months later. These boxes were vendor supplied and
maintained
as NAS boxes. It used RH9 and XFS and we broke it. It took and 80 node job
3.5 days but it broke it 100% of the time. So we had to develop our own
build
and we really cleaned up the installation process. Our second 20 TB we had
them
burn in on their end for 72 hours and then we run our beater jobs. We lose
one or
two drives a month in this group (320 or so total)

So what is our new beer-budget SAN? A CX700 with 30+ TB (usable) of ATA
drives!!! Merry Xmas to ya'll.

--
Wolf
----------------------------------------------------------------
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Maxim S. Shatskih

2004-12-17, 5:45 pm

> Hitachi and Seagate are the common 15K drives.

Hitachi? Ex-IBM UltraStars?

--
Maxim Shatskih, Windows DDK MVP
StorageCraft Corporation
maxim@storagecraft.com
http://www.storagecraft.com

Faeandar

2004-12-17, 5:45 pm

On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 11:20:38 -0000, "Fatboy40" <no one here, sorry>
wrote:

>Faeandar,
>
>For me it's all about the best components at the cheapest price and to be
>honest it really should be SCSI for the disks otherwise I know I'm asking
>for trouble.
>
>My no. 1 choice is the EMC CX300 but I think that's out of my league, my no.
>2 now seems to be the HP MSA1000 (specifically the kit version they produce
>with a switch and two HBA's (which seem to be rebranded Qlogic)).
>
>I think I'll start a seperate thread about the HP hardware to see if anyone
>has any opinions on it (and use Google Groups for research), for around
>£10,000 I could setup a pretty good SAN using the MSA1000 and HP
>resellers/support companies are all over the place and at a later date add
>backup switches/controllers etc..
>
>"Faeandar" <mr_castalot@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:0q24s01ikjfil2433tanl268n9vjlgtugn@
4ax.com...
>

I'm not sure why you only see those 2 as viable options. Why not
Nexsan, or Xiotech, or LSI Logic, or any of a number of decent array
vendors? There are a lot of vendors out there with good components at
very good prices. In fact I'm surprised you have EMC in the cheap
category. Maybe their finally getting back the screw job they've been
handing out all these years and having to give away their stuff. But
that's a personal rant...

In any case, unless you are limited by vendor scarcity in your area I
would open up my potential candidates were I you.

~F

Malcolm Weir

2004-12-17, 5:45 pm

On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 17:56:54 +0300, "Maxim S. Shatskih"
<maxim@storagecraft.com> wrote:

>
>Hitachi? Ex-IBM UltraStars?

Don't get hung up on the line names (in this case, "Ultrastar"). The
drives are generally very different between models.

But yes, 15K73 and 15K146 drives.

Malc.

Wolf

2004-12-17, 5:45 pm

"Fatboy40" <no one here, sorry> wrote in message
news:41c155dc$0$30556$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
> Wolf,
>
> I have to ask the question ... ATA and a good support contract or SCSI and
a
> lower class of support ... I presume that each could cost as much as the
> other (more expensive contract v. extra startup costs of SCSI).
>
> Personnaly I'm still in the SCSI camp, when the business is on the line
(and
> my neck is as well) I know which I feel safer with.

When I first saw these commodity boxes, I came back and told my
office mate about them. He began the litany of reasons why we
could never use them: Reliability and performance were at the
top of the list. I told him it came with a 3 years bumper-to-bumper
service-so all he had to do was break it. As we went through our
testing process he fell in love with it.

To answer your question, I will almost always err on the support side.
Good support will buy me breathing room. Last Christmas Eve (WED),
at 6:30 PM, I lost a disk array. The fibre disk enclosure went south. I
called this vendor (was not their disk array) and got a loaner enclosure
(different manufacturer-Sun) delivered first thing Friday AM (has we
asked for delivery Wed night they would have delivered it). At the same
time I filled out a form with enclosure's manufacturer for documentation
and received a pdf through email 10 days later.

Support is king.

--
Wolf
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Wolf

2004-12-17, 5:45 pm

"flux" <support@fluxsoft.com> wrote in message
news:support-E389A7.00262617122004@news.verizon.net...
> In article <r0i3s0d1sfao1fri5vttqg9hb5e536loo0@4ax.com>,
> Malcolm Weir <malc@gelt.org> wrote:
>
>
> An obviously fabricated tale.

Maybe, maybe not. The point it you should test it in your environment
BEFORE you buy it. Then it won't suck. Or it will suck but you can
live with it.

--
Wolf
----------------------------------------------------------------
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flux

2004-12-18, 2:45 am

In article <u565s0lbj93v9kcs5naf69rpt4boqjfm4p@4ax.com>,
Malcolm Weir <malc@gelt.org> wrote:

> On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 05:26:25 GMT, flux <support@fluxsoft.com> wrote:
>
>
> Flux is not only infantile, but stupid and a liar.

How does my opinion about your tale, which I profess again to be
fabricated, make me a liar?

flux

2004-12-18, 2:45 am

In article <ub65s0pk751bq5jjvb3svm75o45kl9il0l@4ax.com>,
Malcolm Weir <malc@gelt.org> wrote:

> On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 04:56:52 GMT, flux <support@fluxsoft.com> wrote:
>
>
> Unnamed? Are you *really* this ignorant?

Where are the names?

> Hitachi and Seagate are the common 15K drives.
>
> As to your "point", why would anyone vaguely competent throw
> enterprise storage on "the couch"? Where would a competent data
> center employee *find* a couch in a data center?

I don't know. You tell us.

> And I'm mightily amused at the idea of using 20gb or 40gb 3600 rpm
> drives as data center storage!

Really?

Malcolm Weir

2004-12-18, 5:45 pm

On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 06:32:55 GMT, flux <support@fluxsoft.com> wrote:

>In article <u565s0lbj93v9kcs5naf69rpt4boqjfm4p@4ax.com>,
> Malcolm Weir <malc@gelt.org> wrote:
>
>
>How does my opinion about your tale, which I profess again to be
>fabricated, make me a liar?

Because you stated it was "obviously" fabricated.

You may choose to think it was (and the grown-ups here will apply
suitable weight to your opinion), but the claim is not expressed as an
opinion. Still, we've established your feeble English skills, so I
suspect you miss the significance.

Anyway, I think you are liar, stupid, infantile.

And now run along and ask your mommy if you can read the link I
provided, fool!

Malc.

Malcolm Weir

2004-12-18, 5:45 pm

On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 06:34:50 GMT, flux <support@fluxsoft.com> wrote:

>In article <ub65s0pk751bq5jjvb3svm75o45kl9il0l@4ax.com>,
> Malcolm Weir <malc@gelt.org> wrote:
>
>
>Where are the names?

If you were any kind of storage professional, you'd not need the
names.

I did not, and do not, claim that I named the drives. I simply
observe that your belief that brand names are necessary demonstrates
your ignorance!

.... as you'd know if you had any knowledge or experience in the field.
[vbcol=seagreen]
>
>I don't know. You tell us.

They wouldn't. That's point, you illogical buffoon.

>
>Really?

Yup. The price/gb and price/mb/sec are laughable.

Malc.

flux

2004-12-19, 5:45 pm

In article <2ja9s0toded130t3i75n8tcc9a41a8mcnk@4ax.com>,
Malcolm Weir <malc@gelt.org> wrote:

>
> If you were any kind of storage professional, you'd not need the
> names.

So why bring up the names?

> I did not, and do not, claim that I named the drives. I simply
> observe that your belief that brand names are necessary demonstrates
> your ignorance!

So who named them then?

>
> ... as you'd know if you had any knowledge or experience in the field.

But I do.

>
> They wouldn't. That's point, you illogical buffoon.

So what's the point of mentioning that?

>
> Yup. The price/gb and price/mb/sec are laughable.

You think?

flux

2004-12-19, 5:45 pm

In article <oea9s0ll33nngvcnm3naupqs6dgvb4e4hu@4ax.com>,
Malcolm Weir <malc@gelt.org> wrote:

> On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 06:32:55 GMT, flux <support@fluxsoft.com> wrote:
>
>
> Because you stated it was "obviously" fabricated.

It is *obviously* fabricated to me.

> You may choose to think it was (and the grown-ups here will apply
> suitable weight to your opinion),

Apparently they already have.

> but the claim is not expressed as an
> opinion.

It was and still is, but it is looking more and more like fact.

Malcolm Weir

2004-12-19, 5:45 pm

On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 19:39:43 GMT, flux <support@fluxsoft.com> wrote:

>
>It is *obviously* fabricated to me.

Since it isn't fabricated, that's your problem, you lying little
infantile toad.

>
>Apparently they already have.

Yup. You're a little boy playing with grown up toys. Run along now
and play with your little friends!

>
>It was

Nope. Don't lie, again!

>and still is,

Lie.

>but it is looking more and more like fact.

False.

Check the link, moron!

malc.

Malcolm Weir

2004-12-19, 5:45 pm

On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 19:36:56 GMT, flux <support@fluxsoft.com> wrote:

>In article <2ja9s0toded130t3i75n8tcc9a41a8mcnk@4ax.com>,
> Malcolm Weir <malc@gelt.org> wrote:
>
>
>So why bring up the names?

I didn't. YOU did, see?

You != Me.

I know this is difficult for you...

>
>So who named them then?

Subsequently, for your edification, I did.

Emphasis on "subsequently", lad.

>
>But I do.

Yet the evidence is against you.

So why didn't you know that? Why even ask?

>
>So what's the point of mentioning that?

To refute, you idiot, your stupid point about the (apparently) ability
to throw the Toshiba 1.8 drive at the couch.

That was your point.

Not mine.

>
>You think?

I know.

You need to learn to think.

But since you raised the point: a 20GB 1.8in drive costs, retail,
about the same as a 200GB 3.5 drive. That's an order of magnitude.
The internal rate of that drive runs maxes out at 205 Mbit/sec,
compared by 1129Mbits/sec for an Ultrastar 15K.

So in your delusional state, you believe data centers would pay an
order of magnitude too much, or be give up a five-fold performance
advantage!

Which is yet more evidence that you're just a silly little boy. Who
lies.

Malc.

Fatboy40

2004-12-20, 7:45 am

I'm really going by known suppliers that I know produce good hardware, have
good support and I can easily source from our trusted resellers.

I've never heard of those other brands bar LSI Logic, maybe here in the UK
they're just not big players in the SAN field ?. Near our head office I know
of at least two large companies that provide support on all sorts of HP
hardware, so by using HP I've got branded good hardware plus with local
support I'm reducing any risk to the business.

"Faeandar" <mr_castalot@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:i1c6s09r8k492sd4d759htpgnvcdqat8ig@
4ax.com...
> On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 11:20:38 -0000, "Fatboy40" <no one here, sorry>
> wrote:
>
> I'm not sure why you only see those 2 as viable options. Why not
> Nexsan, or Xiotech, or LSI Logic, or any of a number of decent array
> vendors? There are a lot of vendors out there with good components at
> very good prices. In fact I'm surprised you have EMC in the cheap
> category. Maybe their finally getting back the screw job they've been
> handing out all these years and having to give away their stuff. But
> that's a personal rant...
>
> In any case, unless you are limited by vendor scarcity in your area I
> would open up my potential candidates were I you.
>
> ~F

Faeandar

2004-12-20, 5:45 pm

On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 12:54:48 -0000, "Fatboy40" <no one here, sorry>
wrote:

>I'm really going by known suppliers that I know produce good hardware, have
>good support and I can easily source from our trusted resellers.
>
>I've never heard of those other brands bar LSI Logic, maybe here in the UK
>they're just not big players in the SAN field ?. Near our head office I know
>of at least two large companies that provide support on all sorts of HP
>hardware, so by using HP I've got branded good hardware plus with local
>support I'm reducing any risk to the business.
>
>"Faeandar" <mr_castalot@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:i1c6s09r8k492sd4d759htpgnvcdqat8ig@
4ax.com...
>

Hmm, good point. International support may not be a strong suit of
some of the companies I mentioned. I would, however, think HDS has a
play in the UK other than the high end re-badged HP. There are a
couple of lower end models from HDS that are quite good.

But as mentioned previously, support is probably the highest priority.
If there are only 2 suppliers that can provide high end support then
those are your 2 options. It's too bad though really, there are a
number of good candidates out there but apparently not with a UK
presence.

~F

flux

2004-12-21, 2:47 am

In article <flnbs0956odahrdi563a8c74e0lh3hj7nd@4ax.com>,
Malcolm Weir <malc@gelt.org> wrote:

> On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 19:39:43 GMT, flux <support@fluxsoft.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Since it isn't fabricated, that's your problem, you lying little
> infantile toad.

But the only evidence you supplied is evidence of fabrication.

>
> Yup. You're a little boy playing with grown up toys. Run along now
> and play with your little friends!
>
>
> Nope. Don't lie, again!

Not a lie, but an honest opinion.

>
> Lie.

Honest opinion.

>
> False.

Until you provide evidence to the contrary, false is my conclusion.

flux

2004-12-21, 2:47 am

In article <oonbs0d9govue5lmrql2j2ra8ntdeq3jq6@4ax.com>,
Malcolm Weir <malc@gelt.org> wrote:

> On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 19:36:56 GMT, flux <support@fluxsoft.com> wrote:
>
>
> I didn't. YOU did, see?

No, you did.

>
> Subsequently, for your edification, I did.

So you admit it now.

> Emphasis on "subsequently", lad.
>
>
> Yet the evidence is against you.

Where is the evidence?

> To refute, you idiot, your stupid point about the (apparently) ability
> to throw the Toshiba 1.8 drive at the couch.

But it doesn't refute the point. You can throw these drives on the couch
and it doesn't harm them.

>
> I know.

Really?

> You need to learn to think.
>
> But since you raised the point: a 20GB 1.8in drive costs, retail,
> about the same as a 200GB 3.5 drive. That's an order of magnitude.
> The internal rate of that drive runs maxes out at 205 Mbit/sec,
> compared by 1129Mbits/sec for an Ultrastar 15K.

So?

> So in your delusional state, you believe data centers would pay an
> order of magnitude too much, or be give up a five-fold performance
> advantage!

Are you trying tell us they wouldn't?

Malcolm Weir

2004-12-21, 5:45 pm

On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 06:15:11 GMT, flux <support@fluxsoft.com> wrote:

>In article <flnbs0956odahrdi563a8c74e0lh3hj7nd@4ax.com>,
> Malcolm Weir <malc@gelt.org> wrote:
>
>
>But the only evidence you supplied is evidence of fabrication.

Not in the real world: http://www.macintouch.com/xserve4.html.

*Maybe* (e.g.) Tibor Grose fabricated his account; I don't know. But
that link shows your fanatical assertion to be garbage, and my
observation to be well founded, regardless of the *precise* nature of
the issues being reported there (in particular, the multiple reports
of Xserve being not ready for prime time).

[ Snip ]

>
>Not a lie, but an honest opinion.

Your opinions are worthless, and you don't understand the meaning of
the word "honest"!

>
>Honest opinion.

No, dishonest lie.

>
>Until you provide evidence to the contrary, false is my conclusion.

We've established you are too stupid to understand the facts presented
to you. So run along and play now, little boy.

Malc.

Malcolm Weir

2004-12-21, 5:45 pm

On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 06:19:36 GMT, flux <support@fluxsoft.com> wrote:

>In article <oonbs0d9govue5lmrql2j2ra8ntdeq3jq6@4ax.com>,
> Malcolm Weir <malc@gelt.org> wrote:
>
>
>No, you did.

Little boy, <support-31E31A.23565316122004@news.verizon.net>, written
by you, brought up the subject.

Heck, I'll quote the whole thing, because it's so silly:

"The difference is that Toshiba is like a Timex, takes a licking and
keeps on ticking. Now trying throwing one of these unnamed "high-end
storage" devices on the couch on a regular basis-sometimes while it's
spinning--and seeing how long it lasts."

You've still not established any reason why any half competent
individual would *want* to high-end storage on the couch!

[ Snip ]

>
>But it doesn't refute the point. You can throw these drives on the couch
>and it doesn't harm them.

(a) that's not true. It's less likely to harm them, but your absolute
claim that it won't harm them is utterly bogus.
(b) who cares?

>
>Really?

I provided facts. *Shrug* if you can't understand them, that's your
problem, little boy.

>
>So?

My point rests. The idea of using 20GB 1.8 inch drives as data center
storage is laughable. The reasons why its laughable are presented
above. You don't understand that. Conclusion: you're no
professional.

Not, of course, that that fact is anything new!

>
>Are you trying tell us they wouldn't?

I'm stating it as a fact.

Malc.

Wolf

2004-12-21, 8:45 pm

"Malcolm Weir" <malc@gelt.org> wrote in message
news:iqegs01o46joat51m75nj9780jvevsv73l@
4ax.com...
> On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 06:19:36 GMT, flux <support@fluxsoft.com> wrote:
>
[snip]
> My point rests. The idea of using 20GB 1.8 inch drives as data center
> storage is laughable.
[snip]

One should be very wary of these drives. They are slow, break
often-not good enough for cluster use. IMHO.

--
Wolf
----------------------------------------------------------------
Please post all responses to UseNet. All email cheerfully and automagically
routed to Dave Null

flux

2004-12-22, 2:45 am

In article <iqegs01o46joat51m75nj9780jvevsv73l@4ax.com>,
Malcolm Weir <malc@gelt.org> wrote:

> You've still not established any reason why any half competent
> individual would *want* to high-end storage on the couch!

I don't know why. You tell us.

>
> (a) that's not true. It's less likely to harm them, but your absolute
> claim that it won't harm them is utterly bogus.

So let's see these harmed iPods.

>
> I provided facts.

Where are they?

> My point rests.

You had a point of any relevance?

> Not, of course, that that fact is anything new!
>
>
> I'm stating it as a fact.

Whenever have you ever done that?

flux

2004-12-22, 2:45 am

In article <tjegs0dejdmsk7eqjvr7p25jpg4ltuq8jg@4ax.com>,
Malcolm Weir <malc@gelt.org> wrote:

> On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 06:15:11 GMT, flux <support@fluxsoft.com> wrote:
>
>
> Not in the real world: http://www.macintouch.com/xserve4.html.

So is Tibor Grose your company buddy? I thought you said it was more
than one RAID.

> *Maybe* (e.g.) Tibor Grose fabricated his account; I don't know. But
> that link shows your fanatical assertion to be garbage,

My assertion that your story was fabricated seems to be clearly on the
money.

> and my
> observation to be well founded,

But you never had any observation.

> the issues being reported there (in particular, the multiple reports
> of Xserve being not ready for prime time).

I'm missing something here.I thought I was referring to just *your*
anecdote, the one I think you made up.

Anyway, of course, I'm pretty sure the XServe is being used in the real
world, and I suspect they have many happy customers.

Those other anecdotes, which I do accept as real, aren't sufficient to
draw any meaningful conclusion regarding everyone else's experience with
them or any other product for that matter. Every product is going to
have some bad press of some kind. They are always a few bad apples out
off the truckload. What percentage of people who are not having problems
do you think are going to waste time to post: I am not having problems?
Anecdotes are notoriously slanted toward people who have problems.
People who don't have problems have better things to do with their time.

In addition, anecdotes can also be slanted for specific, time-sensitive
reasons. For example, if a company, any company, releases a firmware
update that contains a bug, bad anecdotes may appear and give the
product a misleading false image. Even if the company gets the problem
correctly quickly, we may still be left with pages of bad anecdotes from
that particular incident.

> [ Snip ]
>
>
> Your opinions are worthless, and you don't understand the meaning of
> the word "honest"!
>
>
> No, dishonest lie.

So now you are telling me that I am lying about my own opinion?

Malcolm Weir

2004-12-22, 8:49 pm

On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 05:37:39 GMT, flux <support@fluxsoft.com> wrote:

>In article <tjegs0dejdmsk7eqjvr7p25jpg4ltuq8jg@4ax.com>,
> Malcolm Weir <malc@gelt.org> wrote:
>
>
>So is Tibor Grose your company buddy? I thought you said it was more
>than one RAID.

I'm not sure where you're getting this "company buddy" bullcrap from,
lying moron, but no.

Gose's report was one located in more-or-less nothing flat that
supports, via third source, the allegation.

You have provided XXXX all.

Because that's what you're worth, little boy.

>
>My assertion that your story was fabricated seems to be clearly on the
>money.

XXXX off, little liar.

Your assertion is crap. Entirely unsubstantiated, and obviously
unsupportable anyway.

Clearly, the XRAID has or has had problems. You choose to dismiss
reports of problems because you lack the integrity to admit that
problems could exist, and therefore (based on zero evidence) you try
to assert that *I* am fabricating something.

We both know, liar boy, who is fabricating crap here, and it's not me.

>
>But you never had any observation.

Liar.

>
>I'm missing something here.I thought I was referring to just *your*
>anecdote, the one I think you made up.

I don't care. You are a lying piece of infantile crap.

>Anyway, of course, I'm pretty sure the XServe is being used in the real
>world, and I suspect they have many happy customers.

Sure. So what?

Your problem is that you have to show that they don't *also* have
unhappy customers.

>Those other anecdotes, which I do accept as real, aren't sufficient to
>draw any meaningful conclusion regarding everyone else's experience with
>them or any other product for that matter. Every product is going to
>have some bad press of some kind. They are always a few bad apples out
>off the truckload. What percentage of people who are not having problems
>do you think are going to waste time to post: I am not having problems?
>Anecdotes are notoriously slanted toward people who have problems.
>People who don't have problems have better things to do with their time.

Oh, congratulations, moron.

You though obviously have massive problems!

[ Snip ]

>
>So now you are telling me that I am lying about my own opinion?

No, you are lying about pretty much everything else.

Because you are pondscum

Goodbye.

Malc.

Malcolm Weir

2004-12-22, 8:49 pm

On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 05:21:27 GMT, flux <support@fluxsoft.com> wrote:

>In article <iqegs01o46joat51m75nj9780jvevsv73l@4ax.com>,
> Malcolm Weir <malc@gelt.org> wrote:
>
>
>I don't know why. You tell us.

They wouldn't, you moron.

>
>So let's see these harmed iPods.

Call Apple. Or Toshiba. Ask about warranty replacements.

Then apologize.

>
>Where are they?

In the previous message, you stupid little liar boy!

See remarks about the relative price performance of drives.

>
>You had a point of any relevance?

Beyond the fact that you are a complete idiot, a liar, and a little
boy, yes.

You, though, did not.

>
>Whenever have you ever done that?

Frequently, moron.

Still, you're beyond my interest.

So go play with the traffic.

Malc.

flux

2004-12-23, 2:45 am

In article <n2dis0t2scpobkovjeifk715n6ckc21so8@4ax.com>,
Malcolm Weir <malc@gelt.org> wrote:

> I'm not sure where you're getting this "company buddy" bullcrap from,

So are you recanting your claim?

> Gose's report was one located in more-or-less nothing flat that
> supports, via third source, the allegation.

Your allegation? So you do pretend to know this person, then?

> Your assertion is crap. Entirely unsubstantiated, and obviously
> unsupportable anyway.

I assuming you are referring to your claim here. You are correct, in
this instance.

> Clearly, the XRAID has or has had problems. You choose to dismiss

Oooh!

> to assert that *I* am fabricating something.

But you did.

>
> I don't care.

Are you admitting to it, then?

>
>
> Sure. So what?

You tell us.

> Your problem is that you have to show that they don't *also* have
> unhappy customers.

Logic?

>
> No, you are lying about pretty much everything else.

Why, I think you are pretty smart and observant.

flux

2004-12-23, 2:45 am

In article <hedis0lsd2r3lo0ikmj0h899i5arpm8dpe@4ax.com>,
Malcolm Weir <malc@gelt.org> wrote:

> On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 05:21:27 GMT, flux <support@fluxsoft.com> wrote:
>
>
> They wouldn't,

So why were you suggesting they would?

> Call Apple. Or Toshiba. Ask about warranty replacements.

Damage usually voids warranties.

>
> In the previous message, you stupid little liar boy!

Didn't see them.

> See remarks about the relative price performance of drives.
>
>
> Beyond the fact that you are a complete idiot, a liar, and a little
> boy, yes.

I didn't seem to see it.

>
> Frequently, moron.

Fact count so far: 0.

Malcolm Weir

2004-12-28, 2:45 am

top with parsley, lemon slices and cracked pepper.
Serve with spinach salad, macaroni and cheese (homemade) and iced tea...

Spaghetti with Real Italian Meatballs

If you don?t have an expendable bambino on hand,
you can use a pound of ground pork instead.
The secret to great meatballs, is to use very lean meat.

1 lb. ground flesh; human or pork
3 lb. ground beef
1 cup finely chopped onions
7 - 12 cloves garlic
1 cup seasoned bread crumbs
½ cup milk, 2 eggs
Oregano
basil
salt
pepper
Italian seasoning, etc.
Tomato gravy (see index)
Fresh or at least freshly cooked spaghetti or other pasta

Mix the ground meats together in a large bowl,
then mix each of the other ingredients.
Make balls about the size of a baby?s fist
(there should be one lying around for reference).
Bake at 400°for about 25 minutes -
or you could fry them in olive oil.
Place the meatballs in the tomato gravy, and simmer for several hours.
Serve on spaghetti.
Accompany with green salad, garlic bread and red wine.

Newborn Parmesan

This classic Sicilian cuisine can easily be turned into Eggplant Parmesan
If you are planning a vegetarian meal. Or you could just as well use veal -
after all, you have to be careful - Sicilians are touchy about their young
family members...

6 newborn or veal cutlets
Tomato gravy (see index)
4 cups mozzarella, 1cup parmesan, 1cup romano
Seasoned bread crumbs mixed with
parmesan
romano
salt
pepper
oregano
garlic powder
chopped parsley
Flour
eggwash (eggs and milk)
Peanut oil for frying.

Pound the cutlets.
Dre

Malcolm Weir

2004-12-28, 2:45 am

the baby?s flesh.
Place 1 quart water in a baking pan, the meat on a wire rack.
Bake uncovered in 250° oven for 1½ hours.
When browned, remove and glaze,
return to oven and bake 20 minutes more to form a glaze.
Cut ribs into individual pieces and serve with extra sauce.

Fresh Sausage

If it becomes necessary to hide the fact that you are eating
human babies, this is the perfect solution.
But if you are still paranoid, you can substitute pork butt.

5 lb. lean chuck roast
3 lb. prime baby butt
2 tablespoons each:
salt
black, white and cayenne peppers
celery salt
garlic powder
parsley flakes
brown sugar
1 teaspoon sage
2 onions
6 cloves garlic
bunch green onions, chopped

Cut the children?s butts and the beef roast into pieces
that will fit in the grinder.
Run the meat through using a 3/16 grinding plate.
Add garlic, onions and seasoning then mix well.
Add just enough water for a smooth consistency, then mix again.
Form the sausage mixture into patties or stuff into natural c

flux

2004-12-28, 2:45 am

Stuff the cavity where the child?s genitals and anus were located
using ½ cup per pound of meat.
Tie the arms flat to the body, then pull the skin flaps up to close the cavity.
Now tie the thighs up tight to hold it all together.
Place breast side up in a large metal roasting pan.
Bake in 325° oven covered for 2 hours.
Remove cover, stick a cooking thermometer deep into one of the
baby?s buttocks and cook uncovered till thermometer reads 190°,
about another hour.

Pro-Choice Po-Boy

Soft-shelled crabs serve just as well in this classic southern delicacy.
The sandwich originated in New Orleans, where an abundance of abortion clinics
thrive and hot French bread is always available.

2 cleaned fetuses, head on
2 eggs
1 tablespoon yellow mustard
1 cup seasoned flour
oil enough for deep frying
1 loaf French bread
Lettuce
tomatoes
mayonnaise, etc.

Marinate the fetuses in the egg-mustard mixture.
Dredge thoroughly in flour.
Fry at 375° until crispy golden brown.
Remove and place on paper towels.

Holiday Youngster

One can easily adapt this recipe to ham, though as presented,
it violates no religious taboos against swine.

1 large toddler or small child, cleaned and de-headed
Kentucky Bourbon Sauce (see index)
1 large can pineapple slices
Whole cloves

Place him (or ham) or her in a large glass baking dish, buttocks up.
Tie with butcher string around and across so that he looks like
he?s crawling.
Glaze, then arrange pineapples and s

flux

2004-12-28, 2:45 am

is to use very lean meat.

1 lb. ground flesh; human or pork
3 lb. ground beef
1 cup finely chopped onions
7 - 12 cloves garlic
1 cup seasoned bread crumbs
½ cup milk, 2 eggs
Oregano
basil
salt
pepper
Italian seasoning, etc.
Tomato gravy (see index)
Fresh or at least freshly cooked spaghetti or other pasta

Mix the ground meats together in a large bowl,
then mix each of the other ingredients.
Make balls about the size of a baby?s fist
(there should be one lying around for reference).
Bake at 400°for about 25 minutes -
or you could fry them in olive oil.
Place the meatballs in the tomato gravy, and simmer for several hours.
Serve on spaghetti.
Accompany with green salad, garlic bread and red wine.

Newborn Parmesan

This classic Sicilian cuisine can easily be turned into Eggplant Parmesan
If you are planning a vegetarian meal. Or you could just as well use veal -
after all, you have to be careful - Sicilians are touchy about their young
family members...

6 newborn or veal cutlets
Tomato gravy (see index)
4 cups mozzarella, 1cup parmesan, 1cup romano
Seasoned bread crumbs mixed with
parmesan
romano
salt
pepper
oregano
garlic powder
chopped parsley
Flour
eggwash (eggs and milk)
Peanut oil for frying.

Pound the cutlets.
Dredge in flour, eggs, then the bread crumb mixture.
Fry till golden brown in 350° peanut oil.
In a baking pan, place a layer of gravy,
then one of meat, gravy, and cheese.
Another layer each of meat, gravy, and cheese.
Then bake at 350° for 45 minutes.
Serve on hot pasta with romano cheese.

Southern Fried Small-fry

Tastes like fried chicken, which works just as well.
In fact you may want to practice c

itshendu@gmail.com

2005-01-19, 2:45 am

Just started an EMC Windows discussion group at
http://groups-beta.google.com/group...age-Discussion/
may not suit everyone, but it's a start.

BrianH

EMC

StorageForums.com

2005-01-21, 2:45 am

On 2005-01-19, itshendu@gmail.com <itshendu@gmail.com> wrote:
> Just started an EMC Windows discussion group at
> http://groups-beta.google.com/group...age-Discussion/
> may not suit everyone, but it's a start.
>
> BrianH
>
> EMC
>

Im working on setting up a new site... I just bought the domain name
like 2 days ago, and I am just getting started, check it out:
http://www.storageforums.com

I just put it up.

Feel free to register and get the thing going.

P. Thompson

2005-01-21, 7:45 am

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005, StorageForums.com wrote:

> On 2005-01-19, itshendu@gmail.com <itshendu@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Im working on setting up a new site... I just bought the domain name
> like 2 days ago, and I am just getting started, check it out:
> http://www.storageforums.com
>
> I just put it up.
>
> Feel free to register and get the thing going.
>
>

How about a site to usenet gateway. I don't like forums controlled by one
person. Maybe comp.arch.storage.san?

Wolf

2005-01-22, 5:45 pm

"P. Thompson" <no-spam@new.rr.com> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.58.0501210550580.20899@localhost.localdomain...
>
>
>
> On Fri, 21 Jan 2005, StorageForums.com wrote:
>
>
> How about a site to usenet gateway. I don't like forums controlled by one
> person. Maybe comp.arch.storage.san?

I like that idea. I don't want to have to register for yet another site.

--
Wolf
----------------------------------------------------------------
Please post all responses to UseNet. All email cheerfully and automagically
routed to Dave Null

vijaygandhi

2005-02-17, 5:46 pm

oracle Wrote:
> The only forums about this sort of stuff that I'm aware of are on
> TekTips.
> I've visited it a couple of times and there have been a couple of
> useful
> postings.
>
> Anything I can help you with specifically?. I work with EMC
> hardware/software.
>
> Brian.
> "Fatboy40" no one here, sorry wrote in message
> news:41beb4f2$0$51961$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...-
> I was wondering if anyone here knows of a forum/bbs where people
> discuss
> SAN's ?. I'm having trouble finding info on this subject, specifically
> about EMC hardware.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Clive.
> -

Hi,

I have some query about symmwin (inline cmd) ..How to get this hexa
decimal command (like A7 is used as a Search ).

Thanks,

Vijay

--
vijaygandhi