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Home > Archive > Data Storage > June 2006 > EMC Locks Customers Out Of Their Own Systems?
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EMC Locks Customers Out Of Their Own Systems?
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| Jeffery 2006-06-13, 7:12 pm |
| We've got a rumor running around in our shop that EMC, and especially
with their CLARiiON product, that they lock customers out of the system
so that only EMC Support reps can perform what I would consider
standard debugging procedures.
I mean stuff like determinging if a particular disk in the SAN was bad,
etc.
Are these guys exaggerating?
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| Kristjan Gildemann 2006-06-13, 7:12 pm |
| Jeffery wrote:
> We've got a rumor running around in our shop that EMC, and especially
> with their CLARiiON product, that they lock customers out of the system
> so that only EMC Support reps can perform what I would consider
> standard debugging procedures.
>
> I mean stuff like determinging if a particular disk in the SAN was bad,
> etc.
>
> Are these guys exaggerating?
>
If You want best support for Your EMC products.. You should ask EMC. I
think same goes with every other vendor.
If You, as a Clariion administrator, want to see if some disk or any
other component in array is faulted, You can use Navisphere Manager. It
will show up there. All the logs and other stuff, that You will
understand, are also accessable from Navisphere.
--
Kristjan
Everyday Clariion admin
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| Faeandar 2006-06-13, 7:12 pm |
| On 13 Jun 2006 15:15:09 -0700, "Jeffery" <je44ery@gmail.com> wrote:
>We've got a rumor running around in our shop that EMC, and especially
>with their CLARiiON product, that they lock customers out of the system
>so that only EMC Support reps can perform what I would consider
>standard debugging procedures.
>
>I mean stuff like determinging if a particular disk in the SAN was bad,
>etc.
>
>Are these guys exaggerating?
I've talked to EMC customers and it sounds pretty standard. Most EMC
customers (maybe all?) don;t even provision LUN's, a little EMC man
comes and does it for them.
~F
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| Jeffery 2006-06-13, 7:12 pm |
|
Faeandar wrote:
> On 13 Jun 2006 15:15:09 -0700, "Jeffery" <je44ery@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> I've talked to EMC customers and it sounds pretty standard. Most EMC
> customers (maybe all?) don;t even provision LUN's, a little EMC man
> comes and does it for them.
>
> ~F
Sure, but is that because the customers don't want to be bothered or
because they aren't allowed to by EMC? There's a big difference.
I **definately** want to be bothered with my own SAN admin.
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| Faeandar 2006-06-14, 1:13 am |
| On 13 Jun 2006 16:07:34 -0700, "Jeffery" <je44ery@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Faeandar wrote:
>
>Sure, but is that because the customers don't want to be bothered or
>because they aren't allowed to by EMC? There's a big difference.
>
>I **definately** want to be bothered with my own SAN admin.
I do not know. What I do know is of the people I've spoken with most
are not happy with the restrictions placed on them by EMC. The extent
may vary but for me I found what I needed to know.
~F
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| Colin McFadyen 2006-06-14, 1:13 am |
| In <nelu82l8jjj22sg9r0abf8v8beu0r2vq02@4ax.com> Faeandar <mr_castalot@yahoo.com> writes:
>On 13 Jun 2006 16:07:34 -0700, "Jeffery" <je44ery@gmail.com> wrote:
[vbcol=seagreen]
>I do not know. What I do know is of the people I've spoken with most
>are not happy with the restrictions placed on them by EMC. The extent
>may vary but for me I found what I needed to know.
What is there that people want to know that cannot be discovered via
Navishpere and/or NaviCLI?
We order new disks, install them and provision the storage.
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| wojciech.matczuk@gmail.com 2006-06-14, 7:13 am |
| Hi.
The reason for limiting access to storage is that most of the admins
don't have sufficient knowledge. You need access directly SP in the
moment when something is really bad and I cat bet that in such case
you will not be able to help yourself - you can only make things
worse.
ALL info neccessary to troubelshoot storage are accessible by
Navisphere or Navisphere CLI. ( getall , getlog and SPcollects)
Additionally if something is wrong storage will send you email
notification.
You can generate logs using NaviCLi and check them on your machine -
the only missing bit is a knowledge how to interpret them.....but all
is up to you.
If you need more knowledge - please create personal account on
Powerlink.
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| On 13 Jun 2006 16:07:34 -0700, "Jeffery" wrote:
>Faeandar wrote:
>
>Sure, but is that because the customers don't want to be bothered or
>because they aren't allowed to by EMC? There's a big difference.
>
>I **definately** want to be bothered with my own SAN admin.
EMC don't prevent you from doing standard admin on a Clariion or even
on a Symmetrix. You can provision your own LUNs, look at disk
activity etc.
Back in the bad old days (7+ years ago) the tools for customers to
properly admin a Symm didn't exist (EMC didn't own DataGeneral then,
so no Clariion) and therefore an EMC Customer Engineer had to perform
most maintenance activities. But this certainly isn't the case now.
As other posters have said, many admins don't have the knowledge or
can't be bothered to properly maintain their storage, so they pay EMC
to do it for them. Equally, many customers don't want their own IT
staff playing around with the storage arrays. This is mainly true in
the Symmetrix world, but I've seen it happen for Clariions too.
HVB
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| > I do not know. What I do know is of the people I've spoken with most
> are not happy with the restrictions placed on them by EMC. The extent
> may vary but for me I found what I needed to know.
Hmm. I'm not sure what restrictions they would be referring to... As
an EMC customer (on both Symm & Clariion) I have been able to:
Create logical devices and protection schemes-- RAID 0, 1, 0+1, 5, etc.
(symm)
Create device groups (symm)
Create meta-devices and meta-luns (both)
Create raid groups-- RAID 0, 1, 0+1, 5, etc. (clariion)
Create luns (both)
Detect faults (both)
Setup SNMP trap handling for faults (both)
Things that I could not do as a customer include:
Replacing the hardware myself-- including drives
Buy my own hardware and put it in the box (because doing this requires
EMC support to certify it-- which is expensive)
A couple of one off changes that aren't supported in the management
software (like changing some director bit settings on the symm), but
when the software doesn't let me do this, EMC has always done this for
free.
Faeandar: If you can get your friends to give specific restrictions,
I'd love to hear of them, so I can bring them up with the EMC people
that I know...
Thanks,
Aaron
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| Faeandar 2006-06-14, 1:12 pm |
| On 14 Jun 2006 07:23:53 -0700, "AWS" <spiegela@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Hmm. I'm not sure what restrictions they would be referring to... As
>an EMC customer (on both Symm & Clariion) I have been able to:
>
>Create logical devices and protection schemes-- RAID 0, 1, 0+1, 5, etc.
>(symm)
>Create device groups (symm)
>Create meta-devices and meta-luns (both)
>Create raid groups-- RAID 0, 1, 0+1, 5, etc. (clariion)
>Create luns (both)
>Detect faults (both)
>Setup SNMP trap handling for faults (both)
>
>Things that I could not do as a customer include:
>
>Replacing the hardware myself-- including drives
>Buy my own hardware and put it in the box (because doing this requires
>EMC support to certify it-- which is expensive)
>A couple of one off changes that aren't supported in the management
>software (like changing some director bit settings on the symm), but
>when the software doesn't let me do this, EMC has always done this for
>free.
>
>Faeandar: If you can get your friends to give specific restrictions,
>I'd love to hear of them, so I can bring them up with the EMC people
>that I know...
None are friends, merely people I've spoken with in the past. Perhaps
it was designed by management that the staff did not have access, I
don't know.
I've been so used to HDS for so long now that I never reviewed changes
in EMC.
~F
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| hemanand.gadgil@gmail.com 2006-06-19, 1:12 am |
| Hi,
I think any all the CLARiiON Administration work can be done through
Navishpere GUI or NaviCLI. Almost 99% of routine administration of
CALRiiON ,troubleshooting and configuration changes can be done thorugh
Navisphere
Under navisphere the auser accounts can be restircted by giveing
differnt permission while setting up the accounts , In navisphere u can
have accounts with different roles and according to role u r
restrication cahnges the accoutns are like Manager ( can do anything )
Administrator ( Can manage and do routine administative jobs) and
Monitor ( Can only monitor )
Hemanand
EMC Proven- CLARiiON Solutions and Implementation Specailist
SNIA Certified Professional - 2006
Jeffery wrote:
> We've got a rumor running around in our shop that EMC, and especially
> with their CLARiiON product, that they lock customers out of the system
> so that only EMC Support reps can perform what I would consider
> standard debugging procedures.
>
> I mean stuff like determinging if a particular disk in the SAN was bad,
> etc.
>
> Are these guys exaggerating?
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| Jesper Monsted 2006-06-22, 7:13 am |
| Jeffery wrote:
> We've got a rumor running around in our shop that EMC, and especially
> with their CLARiiON product, that they lock customers out of the system
> so that only EMC Support reps can perform what I would consider
> standard debugging procedures.
>
> I mean stuff like determinging if a particular disk in the SAN was bad,
> etc.
>
> Are these guys exaggerating?
No, EMC quite likes having people in white coats looking after the boxes
that are inconveniently placed in your building. ;)
You can see some information through navisphere, but the guts of the
system is all hidden from you, accessible only to EMC service reps.
It's not too bad, though. When stuff breaks, you get to call them at 3
AM and have them go swap drives for you 
/Jesper, former administrator of 7 Symmetrix and 8 Clariion systems.
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| Mark Perew 2006-06-23, 1:13 pm |
| Jesper Monsted <newsspam@monsted.dk> wrote:
> Jeffery wrote:
>
> You can see some information through navisphere, but the guts of the
> system is all hidden from you, accessible only to EMC service reps.
EMC ControlCenter (ECC) will certainly give you information and alerts about
the status of your zones (both the directors and the switches), any issues
with LUNs or hypers, and status on the HBA and host if the host has an agent
for ECC. The product is expensive and EMC requires a rather beefy server
dedicated to ECC.
--
Mark Perew <perew@squeep.com>
To the world you may be just one person,
but to one person you may be the world. (Source Unknown)
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| Globe Treader 2006-06-24, 1:12 pm |
|
[vbcol=seagreen]
definition for standard debugging procedure differs between different
level of EMC supports. most level one EMC engineers would not go past
navisphare screen. and level 2/3 guys would hardly use navisphere to
determine array state.
navisphere and array internals are two different pieces of software
which at times wont talk well together. but to access those tools you
need access to SP. giving details of SP access is like opening
pandora's box, considering that the user knowledge level is mix of
highly knowledged and lame users.
in normal circumstances you can safely rely on navisphere. in case
navisphere is giving garbage, its better to invlove EMC techs cause
they have resources to determine next course of action based on
variables like array code versions, disk firmware and other....
Kiran Ghag
EMC Proven- CLARiiON Solutions and Implementation Specailist
SNIA Certified Professional - 2006
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