Linux Debian support - Newbie: Debian install to existing partitions

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Newbie: Debian install to existing partitions

Ronnie

2007-07-15, 1:13 pm

Apologies if this is the wrong group. Having used various Live-CD
Linuxes for a while (each separate LiveCD 'image' stored on disc in
separate filenames and selected via Grub running under DOS), wanted to
take the plunge and install a 'proper' distro, so downloaded Deb ISOs
1 - 5. Started with the automatic installer on ISO 1 but hit two
problems; thought I'd solved the first, but not sure how to solve the
second.

Prob 1: Wanted to install to an existing partition (hdb4 ext2, 8GB),
without overwriting a little data held there, so didn't let the
installer repartition or reformat. It seemed to install fully into
that partition. There are many, many files and directories there
(inspected through a LiveCD). Assuming that's ok, for now.

Prob 2: Didn't let the installer install a new (or overwrite my
existing) Grub setup (just caution - I use Grub under DOS and wasn't
sure the installer would leave that existing arrangement in place).
But, on completion didn't know how to correctly create a Grub menulist
entry for Debian on hdb4 and after looking at the contents of hdb4
guessed at:

title Debian 4 from hdb4 ext2
kernel (hd1,3)/vmlinuz root=/dev/hdb4
initrd (hd1,3)/initrd.img
boot

When selecting this grub entry, Debian does start as far as I can
tell, but only comes up into a Linux prompt, not into a window
manager. (Should it? - I've both Gnome and KDE ISOs and used the
Gnome ISO.) Guessing that apart from anything else my Grub entry is
incorrect, could anyone point me to a reference for what the Grub
entry should be for Debian on hdb4? Though familiar-ish with Grub, I
do not know what a 'proper' Debian boot sequence should be, and I
couldn't see that in the installation notes.

Grateful for any pointers,

______________
regards,
Ron

Michael C.

2007-07-15, 7:14 pm

On Sun, 15 Jul 2007 15:18:32 GMT,
Ronnie <me@privacy.net> wrote:

> When selecting this grub entry, Debian does start as far as I can
> tell, but only comes up into a Linux prompt, not into a window
> manager. (Should it? - I've both Gnome and KDE ISOs and used the
> Gnome ISO.) Guessing that apart from anything else my Grub entry is
> incorrect, could anyone point me to a reference for what the Grub
> entry should be for Debian on hdb4? Though familiar-ish with Grub, I
> do not know what a 'proper' Debian boot sequence should be, and I
> couldn't see that in the installation notes.

If you get to a Linux prompt, then the problem is not with grub.

See what happens if you type "startx".

If you get a message that states the command wasn't found, then you're
probably missing packages, unless you're confusing the grub prompt
with the linux prompt.

If startx works, you may want to try:

sudo aptitude install gdm

If this doesn't help, you'll probably want to post exactly what
appears on your screen.

HTH,

Michael C.
--
mjchappell@verizon.net http://mcsuper5.freeshell.org/

"You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair.
Then I thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair,
and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we
actually deserve them?" - Marcus Cole

Rodney

2007-07-16, 7:13 am

[edit]
>
> sudo aptitude install gdm
>
> If this doesn't help, you'll probably want to post exactly what appears on
> your screen.
>
> HTH,
>
> Michael C.

Michael, does a default install of Debian put the user in the sudoers or
are you thinking of a different distro?

Rodney

Michael C.

2007-07-16, 1:13 pm

On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 03:53:10 -0700,
Rodney <me@127.0.0.1> wrote:
> [edit]
>
> Michael, does a default install of Debian put the user in the sudoers or
> are you thinking of a different distro?

I don't believe debian does add a user to sudo automatically.
"/etc/sudoers" is pretty well commented. man visudo.

Michael C.
--
mjchappell@verizon.net http://mcsuper5.freeshell.org/

We're from the government, we're here to help.

Ronnie

2007-07-16, 7:13 pm

On Sun, 15 Jul 2007 19:29:42 GMT, "Michael C."
<mjchappell@verizon.net> wrote:

>If you get to a Linux prompt, then the problem is not with grub.
>
I guess that's true - I think I wanted to make sure that it hadn't
needed some extra parameter to initiate the graphical argument. But
your other advice shows that truly, Grub is not my problem.

>See what happens if you type "startx".
>
>If you get a message that states the command wasn't found, then you're
>probably missing packages
That's just what i got. As i did trying mc (midnight commander?) and
minicom.
> unless you're confusing the grub prompt with the linux prompt.
>
No - it's a linux prompt, and I can log in with either a username or
as root. (But I can only reboot from root).

I guess I hadn't really solved the problem of installing to an
existing partition. There is a large directory tree with lib and etc
and mnt and things like that, so something got installed.

I'd like to try again with the CD. I wonder if there's a way to
install that keeps a log of what happens so that I could pinpoint what
is failing?

And thanks for the help, at least I know what's happened, even though
unsure why.

______________
regards,
Ron

Ronnie

2007-07-16, 7:13 pm

On Sun, 15 Jul 2007 19:29:42 GMT, "Michael C."
<mjchappell@verizon.net> wrote:

>If this doesn't help, you'll probably want to post exactly what
>appears on your screen.

Just retried, selected existing partition, it reformatted the swap and
set off. Gets about 77% through, then fails while 'installing the
base system'. I press alt-F4 and a text screen suggests a failure
setting up initramfs tools, exactly at the point 'console - tools '

This is after it asks me which kernel I want - it pre-selects 2.6 -
486 and, with an AMD Athlon, I accept that because it is presumably
486 compatible. (However, the AltF4 screen says at the point of
failure is trying to build an img(?) for 2.6.18-486 which was another
option on the screen but which I didn't accept.) If there's a way to
get more text detail I'd happily do that, but I am a bit out of my
depth here.

Although it mutters about having to re-install over the existing files
of a previous installation, I sense that there's a more fundamental
problem than just being unable to overwrite a file. Presumably the
installer accretes to itself enough authority to create and overwrite
all the files and directories it needs to?

______________
regards,
Ron

sk8r-365

2007-07-17, 1:14 am

Government satellites recorded Michael C. saying:

>
> I don't believe debian does add a user to sudo automatically.
> "/etc/sudoers" is pretty well commented. man visudo.
>

You are correct as far as Etch is concerned. I edited the file and
added myself - had to logout and in again to make it affective tho'.

I later removed my user from the list 'cause I decided to make my
user have a limited command control but have been too busy to learn
what I need to do to set only a few commands to a user via sudo.
That's an aside ... you are correct tho'.
--
sk8r-365

http://goodbye-microsoft.com/

Rodney

2007-07-17, 1:13 pm

On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 17:53:21 +0000, Michael C. wrote:

> On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 03:53:10 -0700,
> Rodney <me@127.0.0.1> wrote:
>
> I don't believe debian does add a user to sudo automatically.
> "/etc/sudoers" is pretty well commented. man visudo.
>
> Michael C.

That was my point, you suggested something that would not have worked.

Rodney

2007-07-17, 1:13 pm

On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 22:34:15 -0600, sk8r-365 wrote:

> Government satellites recorded Michael C. saying:
>
>
> You are correct as far as Etch is concerned. I edited the file and added
> myself - had to logout and in again to make it affective tho'.
>
> I later removed my user from the list 'cause I decided to make my user
> have a limited command control but have been too busy to learn what I need
> to do to set only a few commands to a user via sudo. That's an aside ...
> you are correct tho'.

I think that is a wise choice, there is some security risk with that
all:all stuff that some distros use for users.

Rodney

Rodney

2007-07-17, 1:13 pm

On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 20:48:19 +0000, Ronnie wrote:

> On Sun, 15 Jul 2007 19:29:42 GMT, "Michael C." <mjchappell@verizon.net>
> wrote:
>
>
> Just retried, selected existing partition, it reformatted the swap and set
> off. Gets about 77% through, then fails while 'installing the base
> system'. I press alt-F4 and a text screen suggests a failure setting up
> initramfs tools, exactly at the point 'console - tools '
>
> This is after it asks me which kernel I want - it pre-selects 2.6 - 486
> and, with an AMD Athlon, I accept that because it is presumably 486
> compatible. (However, the AltF4 screen says at the point of failure is
> trying to build an img(?) for 2.6.18-486 which was another option on the
> screen but which I didn't accept.) If there's a way to get more text
> detail I'd happily do that, but I am a bit out of my depth here.
>
> Although it mutters about having to re-install over the existing files of
> a previous installation, I sense that there's a more fundamental problem
> than just being unable to overwrite a file. Presumably the installer
> accretes to itself enough authority to create and overwrite all the files
> and directories it needs to?
>

Ron, it might be worthwhile to just copy the data you want to save
somewhere else and let the installer format the partition, then copy your
data back after the install. You're not running out of room on that
partition during the install are you?

Rodney

Ronnie

2007-07-17, 1:13 pm

On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 05:59:11 -0700, Rodney <me@127.0.0.1> wrote:

>Ron, it might be worthwhile to just copy the data you want to save
>somewhere else and let the installer format the partition, then copy your
>data back after the install. You're not running out of room on that
>partition during the install are you?
>
Plenty of space. I did wonder whether I might have to do that - the
existing data is only about 400MB, so I can put it somewhere. The
upside is that it would remove uncertainty about existing partitions
etc - or flush out some more fundamental installation problem.

My ultimate aim is different. After getting this going on a fairly
biggish desktop with lots of disc space (and getting used to the
process and using real Debian), I want to try the same thing on a
laptop which I use heavily while out of the office. There, I will
have less disc space and less freedom with partitions, so I genuinely
was interested in installing to an existing Ext2 partition AND keeping
(quite a bit of) data. But that's aspirational, for now.

I'll take your suggestion, and thanks for the pointer.

______________
regards,
Ron

Rodney

2007-07-17, 1:13 pm

On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 15:48:56 +0000, Ronnie wrote:

> On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 05:59:11 -0700, Rodney <me@127.0.0.1> wrote:
>
> Plenty of space. I did wonder whether I might have to do that - the
> existing data is only about 400MB, so I can put it somewhere. The upside
> is that it would remove uncertainty about existing partitions etc - or
> flush out some more fundamental installation problem.
>
> My ultimate aim is different. After getting this going on a fairly
> biggish desktop with lots of disc space (and getting used to the process
> and using real Debian), I want to try the same thing on a laptop which I
> use heavily while out of the office. There, I will have less disc space
> and less freedom with partitions, so I genuinely was interested in
> installing to an existing Ext2 partition AND keeping (quite a bit of)
> data. But that's aspirational, for now.
>
> I'll take your suggestion, and thanks for the pointer.
>
> ______________
> regards,
> Ron

I think this is a good reason to keep your data and probably /home also on
a different partition from the one your operating system is on, it gives
you the freedom to muck-with, or even totally muck-up the install, yet
retain the data for when you get things working the way you want. I didn't
start out that way but now I understand why people recommend it and I
now keep home separate. Might also make backing up a bit easier, depending
on your method. You approach the problem similiar to the way I would, test
on something expendable before working on your mission-critical system.
I'm glad if this did help you a tiny bit and I wish you good luck. Let us
know how the install goes with a format.

Rodney

Ronnie

2007-07-18, 7:14 am

On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 09:42:20 -0700, Rodney <me@127.0.0.1> wrote:

>Let us know how the install goes with a format.

Well ...

It installed with Gnome. Good! Thanks for that advice. But ......

Along the way Grub didn't install to either fd0, or to /dev/hda2 -
both options were offered by installer, both tried one after the
other, neither worked. So I declined its Grub offer, and used the
menu.lst entry I gave earlier in the thread.

And substantially more seriously .....

On statup it asks you to log in but then I couldn't mount ANY discs or
partitions. During the partition selection, it asked for options. I
selected 'mount as root' and 'make bootable' for the new hdb4
partition, though I don't know what this 2nd option does - the machine
boots off hda into DOS normally. Does having the partition bootable
mean you couldn't mount any other partitions on hda or hdb?

I must say I found this setback unexpected.

______________
regards,
Ron

Rodney

2007-07-18, 1:13 pm

On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 09:35:53 +0000, Ronnie wrote:

> On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 09:42:20 -0700, Rodney <me@127.0.0.1> wrote:
>
>
> Well ...
>
> It installed with Gnome. Good! Thanks for that advice. But ......
>
> Along the way Grub didn't install to either fd0, or to /dev/hda2 - both
> options were offered by installer, both tried one after the other,
> neither worked. So I declined its Grub offer, and used the menu.lst
> entry I gave earlier in the thread.
>

I don't have a clue why grub wouldn't install for you. So, you are saying
that you use partition hda2 as /boot. Rather than just not "work" one
usually gets some error message or point of failure that could suggest
what the problem was but this is academic since you managed to find
another way to boot Debian which worked for you and *nix's provide choices. :-)

> And substantially more seriously .....
>
> On statup it asks you to log in but then I couldn't mount ANY discs or
> partitions. During the partition selection, it asked for options. I
> selected 'mount as root' and 'make bootable' for the new hdb4 partition,
> though I don't know what this 2nd option does - the machine boots off
> hda into DOS normally. Does having the partition bootable mean you
> couldn't mount any other partitions on hda or hdb?
>
[edit]

As far as I know The answer to your question is no. I am by no means an
expert on the boot process but I think that bootable just means that it is
identified as a bootable partition in the partition's boot sector. Perhaps
someone else can jump in here with a better explanation. We don't need the
hex code and address, just something better than I've stated.

I'm not sure what you mean by "it asks you to log in", are you using GDM
as a desktop manager or logging in from a terminal prompt? Did you end up
in Gnome? Those aren't going to affect mounting but it isn't completely
clear from what you wrote. Remember that we can't see over your shoulder,
so try to describe a bit better, especially for someone like me who
doesn't use Gnome and has to build the image in my mind from your words.
Basically, I'm assuming you're getting to the Gnome desktop environment as
some username, so everything booted OK.

How (method) did you try to mount those other partitions? Did you try to
mount those partitions as root or as the logged in user? It could be
helpful to see any error messages you were given, as they often point one
in the right direction. ;-) What does your /etc/fstab file look like?

Rodney

Ronnie

2007-07-18, 7:14 pm

On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 05:55:50 -0700, Rodney <me@127.0.0.1> wrote:

>I'm not sure what you mean by "it asks you to log in", are you using GDM
>as a desktop manager or logging in from a terminal prompt? Did you end up
>in Gnome?

Yes, Gnome comes up with a login window - it's the first interaction
opportunity I get with the machine once I select Debian 4 from my Grub
list
>
>How (method) did you try to mount those other partitions?

Gnome has a 'places' menu which you can open - it lists all the discs
and partitions, and if you rightclick on them it lets you choose
mount. Or you can doubleclick. I get a failure message with an
option for more detail which offers:

libhal-storage.c 1401 : info: called libhal_free_dbus_error but
dbuserror was not set.
process 2716: applications must not close shared connections - see
dbus_connection_close() docs. this is a bug in the application.
error: device /dev/hdb2 is not removable
error: could not execute pmount

>as root or as the logged in user?

Same in both, which did surprise me.

> What does your /etc/fstab file look like?

(it exceeds wrap, I think):
# <file system> <mount point> <type> <options> <dump> <pass>
proc /proc proc defaults 0 0
/dev/hdb4 / ext2 defaults,errors=remount-ro 0
1
/dev/hdb3 none swap sw 0 0
/dev/hdc /media/cdrom0 udf,iso9660 user,noauto 0 0
/dev/fd0 /media/floppy0 auto rw,user,noauto 0 0

(on a subsequent reboot fsck fixed some errors on hdb4 caused when I
could not find a way to logout and shutdown - after hitting the
problem, though. Same mount failures continue to occur.)

No hda x are listed (hda1, hda2, hda3, hda4 - also swap)
No hdb1 or hdb2

And thanks for the help, by the way. Depending what you suggest, I
was going to reinstall with the KDE CD - I'm a bit more familiar with
it. I don't expect KDE to mount the discs either - unless a
re-install fixes some other problem as well.

______________
regards,
Ron

Kees Theunissen

2007-07-18, 7:14 pm

Ronnie wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 05:55:50 -0700, Rodney <me@127.0.0.1> wrote:
>
>
>
> (it exceeds wrap, I think):
> # <file system> <mount point> <type> <options> <dump> <pass>
> proc /proc proc defaults 0 0
> /dev/hdb4 / ext2 defaults,errors=remount-ro 0
> 1
> /dev/hdb3 none swap sw 0 0
> /dev/hdc /media/cdrom0 udf,iso9660 user,noauto 0 0
> /dev/fd0 /media/floppy0 auto rw,user,noauto 0 0
>
> (on a subsequent reboot fsck fixed some errors on hdb4 caused when I
> could not find a way to logout and shutdown - after hitting the
> problem, though. Same mount failures continue to occur.)
>
> No hda x are listed (hda1, hda2, hda3, hda4 - also swap)
> No hdb1 or hdb2

How about just adding the partitions you want to access?

>
> And thanks for the help, by the way. Depending what you suggest, I
> was going to reinstall with the KDE CD - I'm a bit more familiar with
> it. I don't expect KDE to mount the discs either - unless a
> re-install fixes some other problem as well.

You _can_ install in expert mode and specify those partitions and the
corresponding mount points during the installation. Make sure NOT to
format the partitions!
But reinstalling just for a few missing fstab lines is a little
overkill.

On the other hand -as a beginner- you might want to learn by playing
and experimenting with your system, screwing things up and reinstalling
a few times anyway. :-)

Regards,

Kees

--
Kees Theunissen.

Ronnie

2007-07-18, 7:14 pm

On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 21:02:54 +0200, Kees Theunissen
<theuniss@rijnh.nl> wrote:

>How about just adding the partitions you want to access?
That straightforward?

>You _can_ install in expert mode and specify those partitions and the
>corresponding mount points
Hmm... What would a mount point be? RTFM, I think.
I expect I'll have to put a mount point in the fstab file, too. More
reading!

>But reinstalling just for a few missing fstab lines is a little
>overkill.
True, but I'm happier in KDE anyway. I may still do that after seeing
what happens when I change fstab. I wonder why the installer chose
not to do it anyway? And why no-one else seems to have experienced
it.
>
>On the other hand -as a beginner- you might want to learn by playing
>and experimenting with your system, screwing things up and reinstalling
>a few times anyway. :-)
Now that's true, but this is a production machine which is why I'm on
hdb. So I need to keep my enthusiasm on a leash.

Very helpful, Kees, thanks

______________
regards,
Ron

msm

2007-07-18, 7:14 pm

On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 19:37:00 +0000, Ronnie wrote:

> True, but I'm happier in KDE anyway.

But reinstalling just for an extra desktop environment is also
overkill.

Ronnie

2007-07-18, 7:14 pm

On 18 Jul 2007 22:45:51 +0200, msm <msm@domain.invalid> wrote:

>But reinstalling just for an extra desktop environment is also
>overkill.
Oh. Can I run KDE 'and' Gnome, then? And somehow select them or
switch between them. Gosh, I hadn't realised that.

I'm on dial up. I'll have to find out, if I've understood this idea
correctly, whether I can get the KDE stuff of the KDE install CD, or
whether the only way is over a 19200 phone line. More reading!

Thanks for the hint.

______________
regards,
Ron

Mumia W.

2007-07-18, 7:14 pm

On 07/18/2007 04:23 PM, Ronnie wrote:
> On 18 Jul 2007 22:45:51 +0200, msm <msm@domain.invalid> wrote:
>
> Oh. Can I run KDE 'and' Gnome, then? And somehow select them or
> switch between them. Gosh, I hadn't realised that.
>
> I'm on dial up. I'll have to find out, if I've understood this idea
> correctly, whether I can get the KDE stuff of the KDE install CD, or
> whether the only way is over a 19200 phone line. More reading!
>
> Thanks for the hint.
>

You can install KDE through aptitude or synaptic or apt-get.

There's no need to use the CD's any more. If you set up your
/etc/apt/sources.list properly, you can let aptitude install KDE by
downloading it from a Debian software repository.

Refer to this page:
http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/reference/

Much information you'll need while using Debian is there.

Also install some documentation packages: doc-debian and
debian-reference-en:

aptitude install doc-debian debian-reference-en

The files should show up in /usr/share/doc/debian and
/usr/share/doc/Debian/reference/.

You've probably already seen the Debian Installation Guide which is on
the CD-ROM.

After you have an installation of Debian going, it's very unlikely
you'll ever need the Debian installation disks ever again. This is not
Windows. You don't have to put the CD in the drive whenever you change
printer drivers, and there is no product activation :-)

Chris Thompson

2007-07-19, 1:14 am

In responce to Mumia W. 's post. I thought everyone should know:

> On 07/18/2007 04:23 PM, Ronnie wrote:
>
> You can install KDE through aptitude or synaptic or apt-get.
>
> There's no need to use the CD's any more. If you set up your
> /etc/apt/sources.list properly, you can let aptitude install KDE by
> downloading it from a Debian software repository.
>
> Refer to this page:
> http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/reference/
>
> Much information you'll need while using Debian is there.
>
> Also install some documentation packages: doc-debian and
> debian-reference-en:
>
> aptitude install doc-debian debian-reference-en
>
> The files should show up in /usr/share/doc/debian and
> /usr/share/doc/Debian/reference/.
>
> You've probably already seen the Debian Installation Guide which is on
> the CD-ROM.
>
> After you have an installation of Debian going, it's very unlikely
> you'll ever need the Debian installation disks ever again. This is not
> Windows. You don't have to put the CD in the drive whenever you change
> printer drivers, and there is no product activation :-)

he said he's on dial up did he not? isnt the KDE package ruther large? why
not edit the sources.list to read from a cd then pop the cd in while the
system is up and running and still use apt-get to get the desired packages
from the cd. assuming he has the kde install cd in hand i would think that
would be faster than trying to download the package via dial up
connection, unless of course i am wrong about the size of the package for
the KDE desktop environment.

--
Chris

Rodney

2007-07-19, 7:13 am

>
> Yes, Gnome comes up with a login window - it's the first interaction
> opportunity I get with the machine once I select Debian 4 from my Grub
> list
>

That sounds like the GDM (gnome desktop manager) from it you choose the
desktop environment or window manager you want for the session and login.
(Note: that is not the only way it could be done) In your case, it
probably only has the choice of Gnome since you haven't installed anything
else yet.

>
>
> Gnome has a 'places' menu which you can open - it lists all the discs and
> partitions, and if you rightclick on them it lets you choose mount. Or
> you can doubleclick. I get a failure message with an option for more
> detail which offers:
>
> libhal-storage.c 1401 : info: called libhal_free_dbus_error but dbuserror
> was not set.
> process 2716: applications must not close shared connections - see
> dbus_connection_close() docs. this is a bug in the application. error:
> device /dev/hdb2 is not removable error: could not execute pmount
>

And, if you think about it, it's telling you the truth. Hdb2 is not
removeable media, is it?

If you were to make a mount point in /mnt (for example /hdb2) and, as
root, enter "mount /dev/hdb2 /mnt/hdb2" in a terminal, then you would
be able to see the contents of hdb2 at /mnt/hdb2.

>
>
> (it exceeds wrap, I think):
> # <file system> <mount point> <type> <options> <dump> <pass>
> proc /proc proc defaults 0 0
> /dev/hdb4 / ext2 defaults,errors=remount-ro 0 1
> /dev/hdb3 none swap sw 0 0 /dev/hdc
> /media/cdrom0 udf,iso9660 user,noauto 0 0 /dev/fd0
> /media/floppy0 auto rw,user,noauto 0 0
>

Yup, looks like a default install to hdb4 with swap on hdb3.

This would be a good time to open a terminal and type "man fstab"
without the quotes. After that you will want to "man mount". Then you can
RTFM to your heart's content.:-)

> (on a subsequent reboot fsck fixed some errors on hdb4 caused when I
> could not find a way to logout and shutdown - after hitting the problem,
> though.

In a default install Debian can only be shutdown by root (the system
admin). If you think about it, it makes sense. The system admin does not
want the server shut down by a regular user.

There usually isn't any compelling reason to shut a Debian system down. In
fact many people like to point out their "uptime", how long they've gone
without a reboot.

If you open a terminal and type:

$su
$Password:
#shutdown -h now

Then your system will do an orderly shutdown and halt.

> Same mount failures continue to occur.)

Just to be correct, they weren't failures, it behaved as was to be
expected, you just aren't accustomed to it.

Mumia W gave you some references, here are a couple more and there
are lots more out there on the net.
http://www.aboutdebian.com/
http://newbiedoc.berlios.de/wiki/Main_Page

Rodney

Rodney

2007-07-19, 7:13 am

[Kees T]>>How about just adding the partitions you want to access?
[Ronnie]> That straightforward?
>

Yes, it is that straightforward, once you know how. I remember it was
very confusing for me when I started, you know the correct approach and
I expect you will read up on it. It definitely ain't like winders. ;-)

I'm guessing that you're expecting Debian to behave like one of those Live
CD you've used until now. You never mentioned which ones. Some of them do
things like add all your other partitions to fstab and make them available
for the user automagically. Debian doesn't do that, the system admin (in
this case you) has to setup the Debian system the way the system admin
wants it to be and may not want users to be able to access all the
partitions on a system.

[Kees T]>>On the other hand -as a beginner- you might want to learn by
playing and
[Ronnie]> Now that's true, but this is a production machine which is why
I'm on[vbcol=seagreen]
> hdb. So I need to keep my enthusiasm on a leash.
>

My advice is what others have already stated, don't re-install your
working system, just add KDE to the install.

Rodney

2007-07-19, 7:13 am

It occurred to me that I'd better explain and mention that the $ and # are
parts of the prompt not part of the command. The $ is user prompt, after
you have entered su and entered the correct password, the prompt will
change to #, indicating that you are now working as root (super user). Be
sure to close the terminal window when done, you don't want a root
terminal open except when you need to do some admin task, you especially
don't want it open if someone compromises your username, because then they
could do anything root can do.

> If you open a
terminal and type:
>
> $su
> $Password:
> #shutdown -h now
>
> Then your system will do an orderly shutdown and halt.

Someone will probably jump in here with sudo stuff, I suggest you leave
that until you become comfortable with how things work and then we can
discuss the security implications and why some live distros choose to
include the user in sudo. I'd guess you already have enough on your plate
at the moment.

Darren Salt

2007-07-19, 1:14 pm

I demand that Rodney may or may not have written...

[snip]
> If you open a terminal and type:

> $su
> $Password:
> #shutdown -h now

I'd use
$ su - -c 'shutdown -h now'

or arrange for the power button to do that (via ACPI), ideally starting with
an orderly logout from any active desktop environment.

[snip]
--
| Darren Salt | linux or ds at | nr. Ashington, | Toon
| RISC OS, Linux | youmustbejoking,demon,co,uk | Northumberland | Army
| + Buy local produce. Try to walk or cycle. TRANSPORT CAUSES GLOBAL WARMING.

ASCII stupid question... get a stupid ANSI!

Rodney

2007-07-19, 1:14 pm

On Thu, 19 Jul 2007 14:47:16 +0100, Darren Salt wrote:

> I demand that Rodney may or may not have written...
>
> [snip]
>
>
> I'd use
> $ su - -c 'shutdown -h now'
>
> or arrange for the power button to do that (via ACPI), ideally starting
> with an orderly logout from any active desktop environment.
>
> [snip]

Yes, of course Darren. It would also be possible to allow a user or users
to shutdown. However, Ronnie is very new to this and has lots of stuff to
learn at the present time. It would be easiest for him if you give a
detailed step-by-step (ideally with explanation of the steps) of how to
accomplish this on a default install. Please don't just tell him to RTFM.
He's working hard to learn but only has experience with live CD's that
have been set up by others. I hesitate to add to his stress by throwing a
bunch of choices or personal preferences at him all at one time. YMMV.

Rodney

Biffster

2007-07-19, 1:14 pm

On 2007-07-18, Mumia W. <paduille.4061.mumia.w+nospam@earthlink.net> rambled on thusly:

> On 07/18/2007 04:23 PM, Ronnie wrote:

[vbcol=seagreen]
> You can install KDE through aptitude or synaptic or apt-get.

> There's no need to use the CD's any more. If you set up your
> /etc/apt/sources.list properly, you can let aptitude install KDE by
> downloading it from a Debian software repository.

So you ignored the bit about Ronnie not wanting to download everything over
his 19.2k phone line, eh?

--
Michael Fierro (aka Biffster) biffster@NOSPAM-REALLYgmail.com
http://apt-get.us Y!: miguelito_fierro AIM: mfierro1
-==-
"Because if you knew, you'd be teaching me. And for a student
to teach a teacher is presumptuous and rude."
- Professor Turpentine, "Willie Wonka and the Chocolate Factory"

Biffster

2007-07-19, 1:14 pm

On 2007-07-18, Ronnie <me@privacy.net> rambled on thusly:

> Oh. Can I run KDE 'and' Gnome, then? And somehow select them or
> switch between them. Gosh, I hadn't realised that.

Yeah. KDE and Gnome are not seperate operating systems, they are only
different desktop environments. You can install all three major desktop
environments (KDE, Gnome and XFCE) on the same computer, and then pick
which session you want to run when you log in. The "Session" menu on the
login screen will list all desktop environments and window managers, and
you can choose which to run.

I have the big three, plus Windowmaker and fluxbox installed on my main
Ubuntu workstation. XFCE is my default, and it is what I use 90% of the
time. 9% of the time, I use Windowmaker. And every now and then, I get
goofy and run either KDE or fluxbox. I'm not a Gnome kinda guy, but I am
not offended enough by it to uninstall it.

--
Michael Fierro (aka Biffster) biffster@NOSPAM-REALLYgmail.com
http://apt-get.us Y!: miguelito_fierro AIM: mfierro1
-==-
I selected E5 ... but I didn't hear "Sam the Sham and the Pharoahs"!

Rodney

2007-07-19, 1:14 pm

On Thu, 19 Jul 2007 09:48:35 -0500, Biffster wrote:

> On 2007-07-18, Ronnie <me@privacy.net> rambled on thusly:
>
>
> Yeah. KDE and Gnome are not seperate operating systems, they are only
> different desktop environments. You can install all three major desktop
> environments (KDE, Gnome and XFCE) on the same computer, and then pick
> which session you want to run when you log in. The "Session" menu on the
> login screen will list all desktop environments and window managers, and
> you can choose which to run.
>
> I have the big three, plus Windowmaker and fluxbox installed on my main
> Ubuntu workstation. XFCE is my default, and it is what I use 90% of the
> time. 9% of the time, I use Windowmaker. And every now and then, I get
> goofy and run either KDE or fluxbox. I'm not a Gnome kinda guy, but I am
> not offended enough by it to uninstall it.

Oh! You missed IceWM, my personal favorite. ;-)

Biffster

2007-07-19, 1:14 pm

On 2007-07-19, Rodney <me@127.0.0.1> rambled on thusly:

> Oh! You missed IceWM, my personal favorite. ;-)

I tried IceWM once, decided that I liked fluxbox more, then never went
back. I am SO a first impression kinda guy.

--
Michael Fierro (aka Biffster) biffster@NOSPAM-REALLYgmail.com
http://apt-get.us Y!: miguelito_fierro AIM: mfierro1

Mumia W.

2007-07-19, 7:13 pm

On 07/19/2007 09:45 AM, Biffster wrote:
> On 2007-07-18, Mumia W. <paduille.4061.mumia.w+nospam@earthlink.net> rambled on thusly:
>
>
>
>
>
> So you ignored the bit about Ronnie not wanting to download everything over
> his 19.2k phone line, eh?
>

No, not quite. Downloading a 630MB CD-ROM is one thing. Downloading 60MB
in KDE packages is another. And most people configure their sources.list
to reference both their CD-ROMs and the Debian repositories.

I should have made it more explicit that that was an option, but I did
point him to the documentation.

Rodney

2007-07-21, 7:13 am

On Thu, 19 Jul 2007 12:25:46 -0500, Biffster wrote:

> On 2007-07-19, Rodney <me@127.0.0.1> rambled on thusly:
>
>
> I tried IceWM once, decided that I liked fluxbox more, then never went
> back. I am SO a first impression kinda guy.

Well, I do have fluxbox on one installation and it is small memory
use, fast and has the elegance of simplicity. Especially good for older,
slower systems without a lot of RAM. The slit is pretty handy but I never
got into the tabs the way some people seem to love them. IceWM is a bit
more trouble to configure, maybe that's what appeals to me.

Rodney

2007-07-21, 7:13 am

On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 21:23:46 +0000, Ronnie wrote:

> I'm on dial up. I'll have to find out, if I've understood this idea
> correctly, whether I can get the KDE stuff of the KDE install CD, or
> whether the only way is over a 19200 phone line. More reading!
>
>

Hummm. Perhaps I should also mention this. If that is in fact the fastest
download you can sustain maybe you have an extremely noisy line or some
other problem. Even out in the country on a long run from a central office
with multiple A/D conversions you should be able to get at least twice
that throughput. You will need to be able to download security upgrades
and such. The world doesn't need any more unpatched systems attached to
the Internet.

Rodney

Harold Stevens

2007-07-21, 7:13 am

In <pan.2007.07.21.08.18.45.384875@127.0.0.1> Rodney:

[Snip...]

> you should be able to get at least twice that throughput

I'm on dialup too, in a suburb in a major metro area (DFW TX US), and it
varies significantly. Even crazy stuff like my electric stove cycling on
and off can induce lockup spikes on my modem (a sharp "zap" sound if I'm
on the phone talking) which requires redialing.

Even beyond that, I regularly see transfer rates going from as little as
a few hundred bytes/sec to maybe 3 or 4 thousand bytes/sec (binary files
like distro updates and such). All within one dialup session, from a few
minutes to an hour or more.

Ergo, I refuse (or outright can't do) Flash and indeed most other online
"multimedia" (IMO) junk.

Still, I find dialup perfectly adequate for my needs. JMO; MMV...

> You will need to be able to download security upgrades and such

Thank $DEITY Linux doesn't have to do too much kernel updating. For SuSE
with YaST Online Updates, those can be as much as 20+ MB. Under the best
of circumstances, that's several minutes downloading, at least.

Most other SuSE updates are much less, and take only a few minutes.

IMO, dialup bandwidth isn't a problem in terms of security updates.

> world doesn't need any more unpatched systems attached to the Internet

I agree completely. I have a very dim view of those who go online with a
known exploitable install (Linux, *BSD, M$, whatever). Especially anyone
who picks up EOL Linux distros at a garage sale, and doesn't at the very
least disable any services they don't absolutely need to offer.

And I certainly don't think "slow" dialups are any excuse for not taking
*all* ongoing net security/sanitation seriously.

--
Regards, Weird (Harold Stevens) * IMPORTANT EMAIL INFO FOLLOWS *
Pardon any bogus email addresses (wookie) in place for spambots.
Really, it's (wyrd) at airmail, dotted with net. DO NOT SPAM IT.
Kids jumping ship? Looking to hire an old-school type? Email me.

Rodney

2007-07-21, 1:12 pm

On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 12:10:29 +0000, Harold Stevens wrote:

[edit]

> I'm on dialup too, in a suburb in a major metro area (DFW TX US), and it
> varies significantly. Even crazy stuff like my electric stove cycling on
> and off can induce lockup spikes on my modem (a sharp "zap" sound if I'm
> on the phone talking) which requires redialing.
>

Yes, of course dialup line conditions do jump around. And, good modems
adjusting (falling forward or falling back), due to varying line
conditions, will have considerable variation during the time of a large
download. I've done considerable testing on throughput and have found
that, if you find a good estimate of the fastest speed your line/modem
combination is capable of on a regular basis (various times of day,
downloading from several different sites), and set a ceiling speed with AT
commands during modem initialisation at that speed or maybe one step
above, one can get the most stable throughput at the best speed overall. I
noted that the first speed negotiated with a new connection was usually
higher than it was going to be able to sustain.

If you're getting those lockup spikes transmitted through the line then it
sounds like you have some bad filtering somewhere. A high quality surge
protector might help.

But you are correct, in a city there is a lot of variation, even other
calls sometimes splatter over. If one happens to live very close to a
central office with only true copper wire (no multiplexers, etc) between
the CO and modem, then one can usually get much closer to the modem's
theoretical speed.

> Still, I find dialup perfectly adequate for my needs. JMO; MMV...
>

I agree, I live in a rural area with no broadband available other than
sat. and I can't afford that. Dialup works for me too. ;-) I just love
programs that can resume downloads.

Sometimes I download all through
the night, sometimes I visit friends with broadband.

[edit]
>
> IMO, dialup bandwidth isn't a problem in terms of security updates.
>

I agree. However, did you happen to install Etch from early release CD's,
then have to upgrade? I have no idea if the debs on Ronnie's CD's are
current to what is in the repository.

But the bottom line is that I would not expect Ronnie to have a tel line
that is consistantly only able to produce 19.2 unless there is a problem
with it. That's why I started this thread, so that Ronnie can think about
that. I expect he'll be back with questions after he's digested all the
current advice. Perhaps we can help with this too.

John Hasler

2007-07-21, 1:12 pm

Harold Stevens wrote:
> I'm on dialup too, in a suburb in a major metro area (DFW TX US), and it
> varies significantly. Even crazy stuff like my electric stove cycling on
> and off can induce lockup spikes on my modem (a sharp "zap" sound if I'm
> on the phone talking) which requires redialing.

There is something seriously wrong with your wiring.
--
John Hasler

Harold Stevens

2007-07-21, 1:12 pm

In <pan.2007.07.21.13.20.56.389379@127.0.0.1> Rodney:

[Snip...]

> I agree. However, did you happen to install Etch from early release CD's,
> then have to upgrade? I have no idea if the debs on Ronnie's CD's are
> current to what is in the repository.

Ooops, I forgot we're talking Debian (not SuSE). Sorry, can't speak about
Debian-specific downloading, because I haven't done it myself.

What I do about the my online download problem is install the most recent
(SuSE) from CDs/DVD as soon after official release as possible, then keep
it updated online (basically) on a daily basis. Even then, a kernel patch
is not going to be a cakewalk timewise. However, most routine updates are
usually quite reasonable IMO (via SuSE's YOU, done daily, as need be).

OP might want to rethink what version of Debian and the media involved in
its distribution, if dialup is the sole *connectivity* resource.

BTW, I'm planning on migrating from SuSE to *ubuntu or *BSD, and so I was
following the Debian group (here) for tips that might help in *ubuntu.

> Perhaps we can help with this too

I agree; I don't know the Debian specifics, but there must be a way for a
Debian install to do routine *updates* (not whole-hog installs) over most
dialup links around today, without too much unpaid overtime.

--
Regards, Weird (Harold Stevens) * IMPORTANT EMAIL INFO FOLLOWS *
Pardon any bogus email addresses (wookie) in place for spambots.
Really, it's (wyrd) at airmail, dotted with net. DO NOT SPAM IT.
Kids jumping ship? Looking to hire an old-school type? Email me.

Mumia W.

2007-07-21, 7:12 pm

On 07/21/2007 01:01 PM, Harold Stevens wrote:
> [...]
> I don't know the Debian specifics, but there must be a way for a
> Debian install to do routine *updates* (not whole-hog installs) over most
> dialup links around today, without too much unpaid overtime.

>

Yes, that's one of the things that "aptitude" does.

Ronnie

2007-07-21, 7:12 pm

On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 01:18:46 -0700, Rodney <me@127.0.0.1> wrote:

>[re-ordered]

>You will need to be able to download security upgrades
>and such. The world doesn't need any more unpatched systems attached to
>the Internet.

Too true, couldn't agree more. During the first install, I had the
machine disconnected from an external IP stream, and the install
script complained that it couldn't check the security updates, and had
commented out some entries in the apt - sources - list. I haven't
addressed that yet, nor have I tackled bring my other discs online
with /etc/fstab. I was happy for the time being just getting used to
basic Debian. And I've been tied up on the day job, too.

When I do take up the security updates, do you know whether that
security service embraces more than just the linux core (whatever that
might mean), maybe updating Gnome, KDE, Iceweasel, and Open Office as
well?

I mentioned this was a production system - hda is, anyway (another
reason why I've not enabled it yet - and actually it's a nice feature
to be able to leave it offline). Some of the data on it is subject to
NDA, so I'm fairly paranoid about security anyway. (That was a
background motive for looking more deeply at linux.) The machine is
behind another already protected network, but I think I will still
face risks of hostile web pages, and rogue attachments - which is why
I was wondering about the upgrade process for the applications.

>Hummm. Perhaps I should also mention this. If that is in fact the fastest
>download you can sustain maybe you have an extremely noisy line or some
>other problem. Even out in the country on a long run from a central office
>with multiple A/D conversions you should be able to get at least twice
>that throughput.

You'd have thought, wouldn't you. Well, it's an archipelago, and it
isn't metal. It's radio. It's analogue radio, and it's susceptible
to military and civil marine radars, and some adjacent channel
broadcasting, from a transmitter right on the Yagi line of sight,
though very distant. And there's multipath problems at 6.25 hour
intervals because certain tide heights re-inforce the reflections.
And it isn't so much an A/D conversion problem, but a series of 2w/4w
conversions which play havoc with echo, and with phase for the trellis
coding (do they still call it that?) of the higher baud values.

The telco is thinking of moving to digital, though the marine radar
issue is not going to go away - many other countries' vessels transit
the island group, and it is difficult to enforce switching off of high
power radars - sailors will forget even if there was no other agenda.

They've done trials with this unit:

http://www.4rf.com/solutions/aprisaxe.html

direct off two different manufacturers' exchanges. This in the HQ
test labs - and they achieved between 19.2k and 24k. They think it's
because of the 2w/4w conversions - they believe the noise floor over
the digital radio is very low - should be, it should be G712. But
these higher speed modems seem not to tolerate either the phase
shifts, or the group delay distortion from having two independent
sections each introducing G712's worth of impairment.

So, yes, there is something wrong, yes the telco is looking at it, but
a replacement is likely to be around the same level - unless they
change the architecure and take PCM all the way to the customer
cluster - to the 'kerb' in a sense, though it's actually a radio hut.

Thank you, Rodney, for some very helpful posts throughout the thread -
I was a bit shocked when it didn't just 'work' quite as I expected,
and your response to that was very helpful. I'm much obliged.

______________
regards,
Ron

Ronnie

2007-07-21, 7:12 pm

On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 22:53:44 GMT, "Mumia W."
<paduille.4061.mumia.w+nospam@earthlink.net> wrote:

>
>You can install KDE through aptitude or synaptic or apt-get.
>
>There's no need to use the CD's any more. If you set up your
>/etc/apt/sources.list properly, you can let aptitude install KDE by
>downloading it from a Debian software repository.

And it worked well. I actually introduced my KDE install CD, and CD #
2 which also had bits of KDE on it, and used something named synaptic
package manager - which seemed to load KDE ok. I got really bold
then, and tried open office, which faile dfirst time - updating
something, I couldn't see what - then tried again because it offered a
'repair' option, and everything went well. Now running KDE, Gnome,
and Open Office. Genuinely, I am really happy at that. I haven't
looked to see what is on discs 3 - 5 - I've only the ISOs for those so
far, so I haven't made the CDs yet.

Good advice - getting used to the idea of seeing everything as an
add-on instead of as an integral part - thank you.

>
>Refer to this page:
>http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/reference/
>
>Much information you'll need while using Debian is there.
>
>Also install some documentation packages: doc-debian and
>debian-reference-en:
>
>aptitude install doc-debian debian-reference-en
>
>The files should show up in /usr/share/doc/debian and
>/usr/share/doc/Debian/reference/.
>
>You've probably already seen the Debian Installation Guide which is on
>the CD-ROM.
>
I have been looking at the docs, and thank you for setting out the
file paths, that was useful. I've also been keeping an eye on the
Debian forum.

>After you have an installation of Debian going, it's very unlikely
>you'll ever need the Debian installation disks ever again. This is not
>Windows. You don't have to put the CD in the drive whenever you change
>printer drivers, and there is no product activation :-)

I liked that! Although there was in fact a fair amount of CD swapping
required for KDE and OOo on top of Gnome. Prseumably once the
system's exhausted what it wants from CD # 1 that'll stop anyway.

Thanks again - the hint that KDE wouldn't need a re-install got me
going.

______________
regards,
Ron

Darren Salt

2007-07-22, 1:12 am

I demand that Ronnie may or may not have written...

[snip]
> During the first install, I had the machine disconnected from an external
> IP stream, and the install script complained that it couldn't check the
> security updates, and had commented out some entries in the apt - sources -
> list. I haven't addressed that yet,

Uncomment the entries for security.debian.org, make sure that they match your
other ftp.*.debian.org entries (wrt main, contrib, non-free), then one of
"apt-get update && apt-get upgrade", "aptitude update && aptitude upgrade" or
your preferred GUI method.

(I prefer aptitude for its UI, though console-based, and its tracking of
automatically-installed packages. Though, to be fair, apt-get in
testing/unstable has the latter now, though not (yet?) the ability to mark
packages as automatically or manually installed.)

> nor have I tackled bring my other discs online with /etc/fstab.

If they're IDE and using the old IDE drivers, this should be trivial BUT if
you're using distribution-compiled kernels, you probably should be using
labels or UUIDs rather than device names (mainly in case of unexpected device
naming changes).

[snip]
> When I do take up the security updates, do you know whether that security
> service embraces more than just the linux core (whatever that might mean),
> maybe updating Gnome, KDE, Iceweasel, and Open Office as well?

Security fixes for everything that's in the release (and contrib and
non-free).

[snip]
--
| Darren Salt | linux or ds at | nr. Ashington, | Toon
| RISC OS, Linux | youmustbejoking,demon,co,uk | Northumberland | Army
| Let's keep the pound sterling

I'd like to, but I'm uncomfortable when I'm alone or with others.

Dan C

2007-07-22, 1:12 am

On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 01:44:56 +0100, Darren Salt wrote:

> I demand that Ronnie may or may not have written...

<snip>

Is this opening statement on all your posts supposed to be "witty", or
what? What purpose does it serve? It doesn't even make sense, really, in
English. You "demand" that someone said something? Doesn't make sense.
Why do you do it?

--
"Ubuntu" -- an African word, meaning "Slackware is too hard for me".

Rodney

2007-07-22, 1:13 pm

[edit]

Harold, don't miss the point that there is some fault in your wiring to
get the symptoms you describe. Mentioned by two of us here.

Rodney

Rodney

2007-07-22, 1:13 pm

[edit]
> When I do take up the security updates, do you know whether that
> security service embraces more than just the linux core (whatever that
> might mean), maybe updating Gnome, KDE, Iceweasel, and Open Office as
> well?
>
>
Yup, any necessary security upgrades will be done for any package in the
repositories and they are always done quickly after a vulnerability is
discovered. (note the term, upgrade. - in Debian people will mean
something else by update, it refers to downloading the latest package
lists for your package manager to use)

Ronnie, as you can see, when traffic becomes large enough, the threads
take on a life of their own and sometimes even lose sight of the topic.
Wars over which foo is *best* happen, and can become even less than
helpful for a newbie. Some posters don't even read all of a topic or even
a thread before posting and only reply to the last post in a thread, even
if that confuses the person who asked for help. Don't let that discourage
you. Take a hint to wait a while before following any advice, mine
included, I make as many mistakes as any normal person. We've got nothing
to prove here, except to try and help you. I've seen people follow
extremely bad advice blindly and end up with a mess that had nothing to do
with the problem about which they came for help. Take the advice, do your
own research until you understand what the code that is presented to you
will do and then try it. As long as your Windows partition isn't mounted
and you don't re-partition or format anything on hda, your
mission-critical production environment will be preserved while you are in
Debian, unless/until someone figures out how to make the machine melt down
from the command line or with a GUI.

Even then, you'd just buy a new
machine and restore from your backup.

> I mentioned this was a production system - hda is, anyway (another
> reason why I've not enabled it yet - and actually it's a nice feature to
> be able to leave it offline). Some of the data on it is subject to NDA,
> so I'm fairly paranoid about security anyway. (That was a background
> motive for looking more deeply at linux.) The machine is behind another
> already protected network, but I think I will still face risks of
> hostile web pages, and rogue attachments - which is why I was wondering
> about the upgrade process for the applications.
>

Yup, I groked that from context. After you learn enough and are
comfortable with Debian you will probably want to look into encryption for
your system, that way if the laptop that you will ultimately use it on
falls into the wrong hands it won't be easy to compromise the data. The
upgrades in the repository are signed by Debian developers and thus as
safe as possible.

>
> You'd have thought, wouldn't you. Well, it's an archipelago, and it
> isn't metal. It's radio. It's analogue radio, and it's susceptible to
> military and civil marine radars, and some adjacent channel
> broadcasting, from a transmitter right on the Yagi line of sight, though
> very distant. And there's multipath problems at 6.25 hour intervals
> because certain tide heights re-inforce the reflections. And it isn't so
> much an A/D conversion problem, but a series of 2w/4w conversions which
> play havoc with echo, and with phase for the trellis coding (do they
> still call it that?) of the higher baud values.
>

Interesting, I live on an island too. And, I do understand the packet
radio limitations. My first Internet connect here was an analogue cell
phone attached to a modem which would give about 1200-2400 with lots of
noise and drop-outs. In those days I just did email and surfing with no
pictures, however that was previous to the days when every site was filled
with flash.

[edit]

> Thank you, Rodney, for some very helpful posts throughout the
thread - I
> was a bit shocked when it didn't just 'work' quite as I expected, and
> your response to that was very helpful. I'm much obliged.
>

Debian, at this point in history with Etch release installer, mostly does
"just work", however, not exactly like the various live CD's that are in
circulation and you are not the first to run into that wall. Security
first, then let the sys admin open up what they chose, Many distros with
live CD's feel a need to concentrate on ease of use for users.

You are very welcome, it's refreshing to try and help someone who is also
trying hard to help himself. All any of us have to do is point you in
the right direction.

Rodney

Darren Salt

2007-07-22, 1:13 pm

I demand that Prostetnic Vogon Dan C of the Galactic Hyperspace Planning
Council may or may not have written...

> On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 01:44:56 +0100, Darren Salt wrote:
[vbcol=seagreen]
> <snip>

> Is this opening statement on all your posts supposed to be "witty", or
> what? What purpose does it serve? It doesn't even make sense, really, in
> English. You "demand" that someone said something? Doesn't make sense.
> Why do you do it?

42! ... no, didn't work...

--
| Ford Prefect | linux or ds at | Orbiting | Have towel,
| Guide Reporter | youmustbejoking,demon,co,uk | Jaglan Beta | will travel
| + If this isn't enough of a clue, don't ask Marvin.

"I demand that demarcation may or may not be the problem!"

Rodney

2007-07-22, 1:13 pm

[edit]

Ronnie,
Something I forgot to mention, it might be a good idea to start a new
topic with your next specific question, many helpful people won't drill
down into long threads looking for a new question, they don't have the
time and/or the inclination, yet may have a wealth of knowledge and
experience. Long threads, have a tendency to go off topic a bit or just
become social phenomena.

Rodney

Rodney

2007-07-22, 1:13 pm

On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 14:23:41 +0100, Darren Salt wrote:

> 42! ... no, didn't work...

"Goodbye, and thanks for all the fish." :-)

Harold Stevens

2007-07-22, 1:13 pm

In <pan.2007.07.22.13.10.17.811165@127.0.0.1> Rodney:

[Snip...]

> Harold, don't miss the point that there is some fault in your wiring

Understood, but it's not my wiring--it's an apartment I've lived in years
now without any other problems (electrical overload/shorts/fires, etc.).

So the motivation for a landlord to fix it (for values near it==noise) is
minimal.

Darren Salt

2007-07-22, 1:13 pm

I demand that Rodney may or may not have written...

> On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 14:23:41 +0100, Darren Salt wrote:
[vbcol=seagreen]
> "Goodbye, and thanks for all the fish." :-)

s/Goodbye/So long/ ;-)

--
| Darren Salt | linux or ds at | nr. Ashington, | Toon
| RISC OS, Linux | youmustbejoking,demon,co,uk | Northumberland | Army
| + Generate power using sun, wind, water, nuclear. FORGET COAL AND OIL.

It's not so much how we stand as the direction in which we're moving.

Rodney

2007-07-23, 1:13 pm

On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 14:21:44 +0000, Harold Stevens wrote:

> In <pan.2007.07.22.13.10.17.811165@127.0.0.1> Rodney:
>
> [Snip...]
>
>
> Understood, but it's not my wiring--it's an apartment I've lived in
> years now without any other problems (electrical overload/shorts/fires,
> etc.).
>
> So the motivation for a landlord to fix it (for values near it==noise)
> is minimal.

Okay, but you might be able to filter out those spikes with a good quality
battery back up unit or line conditioner of some kind. However it might be
some kind of ground fault which the landloard should want to fix, possible
wiring code violations.

No matter, if you've lived with it that long, it obviously is not a
problem for you and you were able to add to our discussion by assuring
Ronnie that, even with a poor dialup connection, it's possible to keep up
with security upgrades. That's the so called bottom line.

Nice chating with you.
Rodney

Harold Stevens

2007-07-23, 1:13 pm

In <pan.2007.07.23.12.19.33.611406@127.0.0.1> Rodney:

[Snip....]

> filter out those spikes with a good quality battery back up unit or line
> conditioner of some kind.

It's an internal USR 5610B (now available as the USR 5610C upgrade) sitting
in a Compaq Deskpro powered by a Belkin 900VA (F6C900-UNV) UPS. This Belkin
seems well filtered, and proven very reliable during power outages, as well
as adequately moderating typical consumer powerline noise (AFAICT).

IMO, I've pretty much done what's reasonable in terms of power quality with
the PC/modem. Obviously, the stove's beyond my level of expertise.

> some kind of ground fault which the landloard should want to fix, possible
> wiring code violations

The Belkin UPS claims to monitor for ground faults from gitgo, and it (plus
other power sources) don't seem to find obvious ground faults (AFAICT). The
stove may have a ground fault problem, but as you mention it seems not some
hazard creating genuine emergencies, over several years now (AFAIK).

> even with a poor dialup connection, it's possible to keep up with security
> upgrades. That's the so called bottom line

Exactly--I know it's not the case in this thread, but sometimes I hear some
folks try to avoid responsible net security with the dialup excuse. That is
just completely irresponsible--again, I know that's not the issue here.

> Nice chating with you.

Thanks for taking the time to comment and offer suggestions for everyone.

--
Regards, Weird (Harold Stevens) * IMPORTANT EMAIL INFO FOLLOWS *
Pardon any bogus email addresses (wookie) in place for spambots.
Really, it's (wyrd) at airmail, dotted with net. DO NOT SPAM IT.
Kids jumping ship? Looking to hire an old-school type? Email me.

John Hasler

2007-07-23, 1:13 pm

Harold Stevens writes:
> The stove may have a ground fault problem, but as you mention it seems
> not some hazard creating genuine emergencies, over several years now
> (AFAIK).

It could be the stove itself but the problem is more likely in the building
wiring.
--
John Hasler