Anonymous Servers - Request not to release

Author

Request not to release

Stephen K. Gielda

2006-02-12, 5:46 pm

As with any project, there are those for and those against. While the
fors by far outweigh the againsts, due voice.

The gist of the argument is that in making it so easy far more will
abuse it. I do see that possibility, but also see another. One where
more people use it casually. I'm most interested in hearing feedback
from the remops, considering it is they who will bear the brunt of
whatever happens. Their voice matters most in this.

/steve
--
The Missing Amendment
The Right To Privacy
http://www.themissingamendment.org

TwistyCreek

2006-02-12, 5:46 pm

XXXX off SPAMMER

anonymous@remailer.hastio.org

2006-02-12, 8:45 pm

On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 14:31:45 -0500, Stephen K. Gielda wrote:

> As with any project, there are those for and those against. While the
> fors by far outweigh the againsts, due voice.
>
> The gist of the argument is that in making it so easy far more will abuse
> it. I do see that possibility, but also see another. One where more
> people use it casually. I'm most interested in hearing feedback from the
> remops, considering it is they who will bear the brunt of whatever
> happens. Their voice matters most in this.
>
> /steve

I'm not a remop, and this isn't what you asked, but I wanted to say
first of all that the question of abuse vs casual use won't even
arise unless the utility is packaged as a windows .exe that the
average guy can just click on to install, including mixmaster, and
including some simple way to get and keep mixmaster updated with
current stats, similar to the way people update to the latest
Adaware or Spybot databases.

If you can put that together then the fun will begin.

As for abuse, it's my impression that technically-oriented people,
who are the ones that use remailers at present, are younger than
the average.

Since younger people are more likely to abuse remailers (or
anything else), making remailers available to the average usenet
user means the average age of remailer users will be greater, and
the amount of abuse per x users will be less than it is now.

But, since there will be more users, the absolute number of
abusive posts will increase.

However, you have to weigh that against the bigger 'crowd' that
will result, which means that there will be better cover for all
anonymous posts.

Also, when people start using remailers they will, I assume, get to
like having an easy way to be anonymous (the news2remail gateway
seems to be a winner), and this will result in a larger cheering
section of remailer users, which means that remailers will be less
likely to end up legislated out of effectiveness or existence.

For me there is no question that the benefits of increased use of
remailers far outweighs any increase in abuse that results.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This message was posted via one or more anonymous remailing services.
The original sender is unknown. Any address shown in the From header
is unverified.

TwistyCreek

2006-02-12, 8:45 pm

This BS is going to be unreliable and a pain in the XXX until it is
packaged for real use with windows, when it is, it's going to be a
spammers fest, all the re-mailers need is more BS and spam to load them
down, great job!

Anonymous

2006-02-13, 2:47 am

In article <26ONFTEK38761.0472453704@anonymous.poster>
admin <admin@eelbash.org> wrote:
>
> I'm not a remop, and this isn't what you asked, but I wanted to say

Yeah you are, eelbash. Having another identity crisis?

George Orwell

2006-02-13, 2:47 am

TwistyCreek wrote:

> This BS is going to be unreliable and a pain in the XXX until it is
> packaged for real use with windows,

If you truly feel that the simple process of running a script in a
secure, stable operating system is more of a pain in the XXX than dealing
with the "quirks" and gaping holes in a toy operating system like
WinBloze, I really feel a little bit sorry for ya'.

That said, it's trivial to compile/package the script for use on your
child's machine if that's all you're capable of operating.

> when it is, it's going to be a
> spammers fest, all the re-mailers need is more BS and spam to load them
> down, great job!

We already know the remailer network isn't conducive to spam. Making it
easer to use can't and won't change the fact that bulk mail will just
never survive in that environment.

TwistyCreek Admin

2006-02-13, 2:47 am

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 14:31:45 -0500, Stephen K. Gielda
<steve@packetderm.com.bogus> wrote:

>As with any project, there are those for and those against. While the
>fors by far outweigh the againsts, due voice.
>
>The gist of the argument is that in making it so easy far more will
>abuse it. I do see that possibility, but also see another. One where
>more people use it casually. I'm most interested in hearing feedback
>from the remops, considering it is they who will bear the brunt of
>whatever happens. Their voice matters most in this.
>
>/steve

Hi Steve

Well, I have not heard of any "REAL" abuse of a newsgroup or people because
of it. (Sorry to some, "naughty words" do not qualify as "REAL" abuse in my
opinion). Since I have been known to use "naughty words", I won't filter
myself

Neither do flame wars or expressing unpopular opinions qualify as "REAL"
abuse, assuming they are in a somewhat related context to the general tone
of the group.

I am an active boater (when I have time, not often

I did read rec.boats many years ago. I had to filter out 90% of the stuff
because it was off topic for boaters. Finally, OT posting got the best of
me and I never read the group again. I haven't looked at the group in the
last 4 or 5 years (or more), maybe it has changed. Oh yeah, I stopped
reading it when the opening shots of the Gore vs Bush presidential campaign
were launched over my bow. I guess it is well past 5 years now. (Sorry, I
have no interest in politics whatsoever, I have enough on my plate now)

FWIW, this was not done by anonymous posters, but the regulars of the
groups that changed it from boating to politics. If I were interested in
politics, I would read the political oriented groups. I sure as Hell
wouldn't go to a boating group to discuss politics, anonymous or otherwise.

I did take a little time to re-write my help page today. I made it as
honest as I can be about how I am operating the re-mailer and what I
consider abuse. If I get enough complaints of what I have outlined as
"REAL" abuse, I can always take some actions to block a message from being
sent. But, they have to be serious cases of abuse before I will step in.
The help page is brutally honest on what I will and will not tolerate. The
last version is up but has not been picked up by the pingers yet. There
were some line feeds missing making it difficult to read. I just touched it
up. I didn't change the content. (It still isn't a pleasant before bed read

Since I will be at the forefront, I guess I am entitled to express my
opinion. First of all, I like it. It allows the casual user to be
anonymous. I want to see anonymity available on a wide scale and readily
available to all. I don't want to see the average user forced into
installing special software such as QS or JBN or learn how to hand roll
just to send a few anonymous messages. I don't operate a re-mailer just for
an elite few. I welcome new comers, just as I was welcomed many years ago.

Hell, I remember you when you were just another RemOp.

When PGP was released, Phil was nearly sent to prison for making it
available to anyone. It was hailed as "Privacy for the Masses". The Feds
didn't like it. The Feds predicted all types of dire consequences. They
tried everything to stop him. PGP eventually survived the Federal
onslaught.

I say we give this news client to re-mailer system that you developed a go.
Let us test it over time. For me to condemn it now would be no different
than the Feds condemning PGP when it was released.

I hope we in the privacy community are better than the Feds. Let all of us
in the privacy community work together to make life easier for all by
helping the old and the new. Yes, we will have abusers. Let's hope the good
outweighs the bad, just like with PGP.

Just My Thoughts.

Regards,
TwistyCreek Admin

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Borked Pseudo Mailed

2006-02-13, 2:47 am

Anonymous wrote:

> In article <26ONFTEK38761.0472453704@anonymous.poster> admin
> <admin@eelbash.org> wrote:
>
> Yeah you are, eelbash. Having another identity crisis?

Ummm.... if that really was the Evil Eel, "I'm not a remop" would be the
first accurate thing it posted in years. ;)

Stephen K. Gielda

2006-02-13, 2:47 am

In article <26ONFTEK38761.0472453704@anonymous.poster>,
anonymous@remailer.hastio.org says...
> On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 14:31:45 -0500, Stephen K. Gielda wrote:
>
>
> I'm not a remop, and this isn't what you asked, but I wanted to say
> first of all that the question of abuse vs casual use won't even
> arise unless the utility is packaged as a windows .exe that the
> average guy can just click on to install, including mixmaster, and
> including some simple way to get and keep mixmaster updated with
> current stats, similar to the way people update to the latest
> Adaware or Spybot databases.
>
> If you can put that together then the fun will begin.

It has been put together, I got it compiled and running on Windows and
it will be released with a windows exe that all they have to do is run.
That is why I posted for this discussion. It will be something anyone
can run and they can even use outlook express to post with if they want.

/steve
--
The Missing Amendment
The Right To Privacy
http://www.themissingamendment.org

Stephen K. Gielda

2006-02-13, 2:47 am

In article <OC8SDUSQ38760.8509606481@twistycreek.com>,
anon@comments.header says...
> This BS is going to be unreliable and a pain in the XXX until it is
> packaged for real use with windows, when it is, it's going to be a
> spammers fest, all the re-mailers need is more BS and spam to load them
> down, great job!

It will be released with an exe for windows.

/steve
--
The Missing Amendment
The Right To Privacy
http://www.themissingamendment.org

Stephen K. Gielda

2006-02-13, 2:47 am

In article <d030v1dls7umsqilj1hprk53gjnrd37fqs@4ax.com>,
admin^@^twistycreek^.^com says...
> Since I will be at the forefront, I guess I am entitled to express my
> opinion. First of all, I like it. It allows the casual user to be
> anonymous. I want to see anonymity available on a wide scale and readily
> available to all. I don't want to see the average user forced into
> installing special software such as QS or JBN or learn how to hand roll
> just to send a few anonymous messages. I don't operate a re-mailer just for
> an elite few. I welcome new comers, just as I was welcomed many years ago.

You and I have had this discussion in alt.cotse. We're of similar minds
on it. However now that I have it compiled and running as a Windows
executable, I was wondering if that may cause any changes in anyone's
views. It's a different impact if someone has to install and configure
perl vs just having to run an exe.

/steve
--
The Missing Amendment
The Right To Privacy
http://www.themissingamendment.org

Thrasher Remailer

2006-02-13, 2:47 am

In <MPG.1e595728c4442666989cc6@news.newsreader.com>, steve@packetderm.com.bogus wrote:
>As with any project, there are those for and those against. While the
>fors by far outweigh the againsts, due voice.
>
>The gist of the argument is that in making it so easy far more will
>abuse it. I do see that possibility, but also see another. One where
>more people use it casually. I'm most interested in hearing feedback
>from the remops, considering it is they who will bear the brunt of
>whatever happens. Their voice matters most in this.

I for one would like to see it released.

Thrasher Admin

2006-02-13, 7:46 am

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article <MPG.1e595728c4442666989cc6@news.newsreader.com>
Stephen K. Gielda <steve@packetderm.com.bogus> wrote:
>
> As with any project, there are those for and those against. While the
> fors by far outweigh the againsts, due voice.
>
> The gist of the argument is that in making it so easy far more will
> abuse it. I do see that possibility, but also see another. One where
> more people use it casually. I'm most interested in hearing feedback
> from the remops, considering it is they who will bear the brunt of
> whatever happens. Their voice matters most in this.

When it comes down to it, News2Remail eliminates the need to copy text from
one application and paste it into another in order to reply to a Usenet
post. The necessity to maintain up to date stats and keys etc. still
exists, and to my way of thinking, will prevent any "sudden explosion" in
the use of remailers.

Neither can I see it resulting in any long term increase in the level of
abuse from that currently experienced by remailers or mail2news gateways.
Short term, maybe, but only until the novelty wears off. I would expect the
abuse to use ratio (which I find a lot lower than what I was told to
expect) to remain much the same.

- --
Cheers,
Thrasher...

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Anonymous

2006-02-13, 7:46 am

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

In article <MPG.1e595728c4442666989cc6@news.newsreader.com>
Stephen K. Gielda <steve@packetderm.com.bogus> wrote:
>
> As with any project, there are those for and those against. While the
> fors by far outweigh the againsts, due voice.
>
> The gist of the argument is that in making it so easy far more will
> abuse it. I do see that possibility, but also see another. One where
> more people use it casually. I'm most interested in hearing feedback
> from the remops, considering it is they who will bear the brunt of
> whatever happens. Their voice matters most in this.

If remailers weren't used, there'd be no point in my running
one. If my say so counts, release it.

Amigo

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Stephen K. Gielda

2006-02-13, 5:50 pm

In article <J5IAGXMK38761.7109375@reece.net.au>,
thrasher_admin@reece.net.au says...
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> In article <MPG.1e595728c4442666989cc6@news.newsreader.com>
> Stephen K. Gielda <steve@packetderm.com.bogus> wrote:
>
> When it comes down to it, News2Remail eliminates the need to copy text from
> one application and paste it into another in order to reply to a Usenet
> post. The necessity to maintain up to date stats and keys etc. still
> exists,

It automatically updates with the latest type2.lis and pubring.mix from
your configured stats source when it loads. It can also be run with a
"-stats" switch and all it will do is retrieve stats and exit. You have
to run it with a "-nostats" switch for it not to update stats on load.

I'm debating whether or not to automate the install of mixmaster.exe or
not. If I do that then I'll take another step and package a Windows
install/uninstall thing for everything so that they'd be able to get
everything installed and running on a doubleclick. But what I don't
want to have to automate is the checking of the pgp sig. So perhaps it
will still be that they have to download and unzip themselves.

/steve
--
The Missing Amendment
The Right To Privacy
http://www.themissingamendment.org

panta-admin

2006-02-13, 5:50 pm

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hi Steve !

>As with any project, there are those for and those against. While the
>fors by far outweigh the againsts, due voice.
>
>The gist of the argument is that in making it so easy far more will
>abuse it. I do see that possibility, but also see another. One where
>more people use it casually. I'm most interested in hearing feedback
>from the remops, considering it is they who will bear the brunt of
>whatever happens. Their voice matters most in this.

Abuse of the usenet posting capabilities of the remailer system is
definitely a problem. However there are certain aspects to it. I think that
usenet is a somewhat matured technology, by which I mean you dont get the
17year old script kiddies on usenet, its not a very high profile target for
them. Spamming a newsgroup might have been cool five years ago, but
nowadays it has to be a DDOS attack against google or something. The bigger
problem seems to be personal feuds between people which are then fought on
usenet with thousands of messages of the "xxx is an idiot" type. Kind of
judges itself, nevertheless thousands of inflammatory postings from
remailers discredit the system. As you know I have implemented a hashcash
requirement on my system to stop excessive postings that seems to work very
well, and multipost filters like cleanfeed do the rest.

In conclusion I think ease of use is important as it will encourage more
people to take advantage of the system, and thats what this is all about.
If the system gets abused we will have to deal with that.
IMHO go ahead, publish it.

Cheers,
panta-admin
BTW: In your software did you take care of the restrictions of mail2news
gateways and the posting capabilities of remailers ?
Here at panta that is 30kb max size for postings and the hashcash
requirement for all groups except aam and alt.test. I am sure other
gateways have lists of blocked groups and filters in place.

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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This message was posted via one or more anonymous remailing services.
The original sender is unknown. Any address shown in the From header
is unverified. You need a valid hashcash token to post to groups other
than alt.test and alt.anonymous.messages. Visit www.panta-rhei.eu.org
for abuse and hashcash info.

Stephen K. Gielda

2006-02-13, 5:50 pm

In article <9GWUFR5138761.7186226852@anonymous.poster>, anonymous@panta-
rhei.dyndns.org says...
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Hi Steve !
>
>
> Abuse of the usenet posting capabilities of the remailer system is
> definitely a problem. However there are certain aspects to it. I think that
> usenet is a somewhat matured technology, by which I mean you dont get the
> 17year old script kiddies on usenet, its not a very high profile target for
> them. Spamming a newsgroup might have been cool five years ago, but
> nowadays it has to be a DDOS attack against google or something. The bigger
> problem seems to be personal feuds between people which are then fought on
> usenet with thousands of messages of the "xxx is an idiot" type. Kind of
> judges itself, nevertheless thousands of inflammatory postings from
> remailers discredit the system. As you know I have implemented a hashcash
> requirement on my system to stop excessive postings that seems to work very
> well, and multipost filters like cleanfeed do the rest.

Well, it will make flaming via the remailers easier, there is little
doubt about that. When you can use Xnews and click a drop list and your
reply is going out the remailers it will be much easier for socks and
flames. You know it's going to be used. I expect we'll see a spike in
that, but what I also expect is that we'll see a spike in average use as
well. They should balance out. Plus, easier to switch back and forth
like that means it's easier to screw up, so I imagine some will end up
outing themselves and that will be the end of that.

> In conclusion I think ease of use is important as it will encourage more
> people to take advantage of the system, and thats what this is all about.
> If the system gets abused we will have to deal with that.
> IMHO go ahead, publish it.

All the concern could all be for naught as well, the release like a fart
in the wind.

> BTW: In your software did you take care of the restrictions of mail2news
> gateways and the posting capabilities of remailers ?

As in automating exit selection based upon blocked groups? No. or
automating posting choice based upon whether or not the exit allows
Post-To? No.

> Here at panta that is 30kb max size for postings and the hashcash
> requirement for all groups except aam and alt.test. I am sure other
> gateways have lists of blocked groups and filters in place.

Don't do anything with that either, left that up to the end user. All
this does:

Listen on a port and speak NNTP
Accept the message via NNTP and pass it to mixmaster executable.

Setting default chain is manual and a config entry. As is setting
default mail2news gateways. Either can be set on-the-fly via X-Headers.
It strips or adds headers that the user configs. It also automates hash
headers, and it automates getting type2.lis and pubring.mix.

I'm thinking of adding a way for the user to dynamically trigger a Post-
To as well as possibly automating the install and configuration of
mixmaster.exe.

/steve
--
The Missing Amendment
The Right To Privacy
http://www.themissingamendment.org

Nomen Nescio

2006-02-14, 7:46 am

In article <MPG.1e59f51ad7d71f0a989cc7@news.newsreader.com>
Stephen K. Gielda <steve@packetderm.com.bogus> wrote:
>
> In article <26ONFTEK38761.0472453704@anonymous.poster>,
> anonymous@remailer.hastio.org says...
>
> It has been put together, I got it compiled and running on Windows and
> it will be released with a windows exe that all they have to do is run.
> That is why I posted for this discussion. It will be something anyone
> can run and they can even use outlook express to post with if they want.

You say the user can use outlook express to post if they wish. Can
they use outlook express to read the messages too? Can outlook
express be set up to read from 1 source and post to another? If not
how do they juggle this reading on one and posting on another. I
don't get it.

Stephen K. Gielda

2006-02-14, 5:47 pm

In article <ac763ca07ab99368ccc5d9f1dc7848f3@dizum.com>,
nobody@dizum.com says...
> In article <MPG.1e59f51ad7d71f0a989cc7@news.newsreader.com>
> Stephen K. Gielda <steve@packetderm.com.bogus> wrote:
>
> You say the user can use outlook express to post if they wish. Can
> they use outlook express to read the messages too?

No idea, I was only talking about posting.

> Can outlook
> express be set up to read from 1 source and post to another? If not
> how do they juggle this reading on one and posting on another. I
> don't get it.

As far as getting full functionality of replying too, I don't think
Outlook can do multiple servers. But it can post, any newsreader can
post.

While I am waiting to see if I got the final bugs out I have been toying
with the idea of turning news2remail into a local proxy. Meaning that
it acts as a middleman between the user and the news service. All non-
post related requests to be passed onto the news server, post being
passed to mixmaster. If I can get this concept worked out, it
eliminates the requirement of being able to read from one server and
post to another. It will all be able to be done with one server and
it's then truly reader independent and transparent.

I don't have p.o.c. done. I have to figure out how to pass off the
connection or effeciently handle the conversation if I can't pass it
off. I can see how it would be done, I just suspect PERL may not be the
right language. It may be better in C and I don't know C very well.

/steve
--
The Missing Amendment
The Right To Privacy
http://www.themissingamendment.org

Stephen K. Gielda

2006-02-14, 5:47 pm

In article <MPG.1e5bc483c4c0cb4b989cd0@news.newsreader.com>,
steve@packetderm.com.bogus says...
> While I am waiting to see if I got the final bugs out I have been toying
> with the idea of turning news2remail into a local proxy. Meaning that
> it acts as a middleman between the user and the news service. All non-
> post related requests to be passed onto the news server, post being
> passed to mixmaster. If I can get this concept worked out, it
> eliminates the requirement of being able to read from one server and
> post to another. It will all be able to be done with one server and
> it's then truly reader independent and transparent.
>
> I don't have p.o.c. done. I have to figure out how to pass off the
> connection or effeciently handle the conversation if I can't pass it
> off. I can see how it would be done, I just suspect PERL may not be the
> right language. It may be better in C and I don't know C very well.
>
>
>
I apologize for following myself up, but I want to expand upon this
some. I think it may be the key to remailer transparency in both NNTP
and SMTP and I want to get some discussion going.

In addition to the above for NNTP, SMTP can be handled in a similar
fashion. If it's just a proxy, then all sent mail is accepted, if some
trigger in the message says remail (a subject key, header, line in body)
the message is piped to the mixmaster binary. If there is no match then
the message is passed to the actual SMTP.

Bundle these two things together (the NNTP and SMTP proxies), put a
decent interface to selecting default remailers, gateways, etc. Have it
accept on-the-fly selections like news2remail does, have it get
type2.lis and and pubring.mix from the configured stats soure, and you
have a remailer interface for both mail and news, users choice of
client, that is easy and transparent. Snap it all together in an
installshield package and...remailers for the masses.

Thoughts?

/steve
--
The Missing Amendment
The Right To Privacy
http://www.themissingamendment.org

privacy.at Anonymous Remailer

2006-02-14, 5:47 pm

"Stephen K. Gielda" <steve@packetderm.com.bogus> wrote in message
news:MPG.1e595728c4442666989cc6@news.newsreader.com...
> As with any project, there are those for and those against. While the
> fors by far outweigh the againsts, due voice.
>
> The gist of the argument is that in making it so easy far more will
> abuse it. I do see that possibility, but also see another. One where
> more people use it casually. I'm most interested in hearing feedback
> from the remops, considering it is they who will bear the brunt of
> whatever happens. Their voice matters most in this.
>
> /steve

I believe those people who would abuse Usenet already do, with or without
mixmaster anonymity. There might be a slight increase of that abuse coming
out of the remailers.

The availability of anonymous free speech and privacy would be increased.
Cover traffic might be increased.

The pro outweigh the cons.

Anonymous

2006-02-17, 11:08 pm

In article <9GWUFR5138761.7186226852@anonymous.poster>
panta-admin <anonymous@panta-rhei.dyndns.org> wrote:
>The bigger
> problem seems to be personal feuds between people which are then
fought on
> usenet with thousands of messages of the "xxx is an idiot" type.
Kind of
> judges itself, nevertheless thousands of inflammatory postings from
> remailers discredit the system.

What is all this talk of "inflammatory postings?" I have never ever
seen any postings of this type, except for that Jabriol and Carol
person, thing, or whatever it is or was. That's it, what else is
there? Just kill filter them out and gone. I just don't see the
problem at all that you seem to be saying is common. Can you give
some examples?
>

anonymous@remailer.hastio.org

2006-02-17, 11:08 pm

remailer@invalid.com

2006-02-19, 8:22 am

-----BEGIN TYPE III ANONYMOUS MESSAGE-----
Message-type: plaintext

>This BS is going to be unreliable and a
>pain in the XXX until it is packaged for
>real use with windows, when it is, it's
>going to be a spammers fest, all the
>re-mailers need is more BS and spam
>to load them down, great job!

The US Vice-President, Dick Cheney, has
accidentally shot and injured a man during
a quail hunting trip in Texas.

The victim, named as Harry Whittington,
was on the trip with Mr Cheney at the
Armstrong Ranch when the accident happened
on Saturday.
-----END TYPE III ANONYMOUS MESSAGE-----