Apache Mod-Python - [VOTE] does mod_python want to be a TLP

Author

[VOTE] does mod_python want to be a TLP

Roy T. Fielding

2007-02-08, 1:14 am

Hi all,

With my VP, Apache HTTP Server, pointy hat on...

Generally speaking, the goal of any Apache project is that the people
who are doing the work should also be the ones with the responsibility
for making the rules, deciding when to release, resolving their own
conflicts, inviting new committers, making infrastructure requests,
and occasionally reporting to the ASF board about all of the above.
The mod_python committers have effectively been doing that for a long
time, on their own, and with no problems apparent to my eyes. However,
mod_python is currently an official responsibility of the HTTP Server
project, as a whole, and for me in particular to report on it.

The board is meeting on the 20th, which means I need to prepare a
report before the 18th, and one of the things I'd like to say in
that report is that the mod_python developers have decided to form
their own top-level project, with its own chair/VP, and here is the
resolution to make it happen.

Of course, I can't really do that unless that is what you actually
want me to do, so the first step is to vote:

+1 approve requesting a mod_python TLP
0 don't care
-1 opposed to doing our own laundry

The vote shall be open 72 hours or until all of the mod_python
core group members have voted, whichever is earlier.

The second step is to acknowledge that, if approved, you would
like to be named as one of the PMC members of a mod_python project
in the proposed board resolution.

The third step is to please nominate one of those PMC members to
be named as the chair/VP responsible for interacting with the ASF
board. It should be someone who is willing to listen to the board
mailing list, able to make infrastructure requests on behalf of the
project, and desiring to facilitate (not dictate) decisions to be
made by the project. It is not a "technical lead" style of position,
though there are many technical leaders who also happen to be good
project chairs. Feel free to nominate or un-nominate yourself.

If there is more than one nominee that wants to be chair, then
I will set up a quick vote or suitably random toss after the rest
of the resolution is determined. Please note that the chair serves
as the representative of the board, so it is the board that actually
decides who will be chair and can replace the chair at any time,
though they usually follow the project's nomination.

Cheers,

.....Roy

Jim Gallacher

2007-02-09, 1:12 pm

Hi Roy,

+1 approve requesting a mod_python TLP

+2 to the alterative: approve requesting a Python TLP

This is an idea that we've been knocking around for a while now, so I
think your timing is good.

Would it be possible to expand the proposal a little, whereby we would
become a TLP for Python modules for httpd, rather than just mod_python
as a TLP?

Just before Christmas there was a thread on the mod_python users list
where some interesting ideas were discussed. The upshot is that there
are 2 distinct types of mod_python users: those that want to access the
full httpd API (currently mod_python only provides a subset); and those
that just want an embedded Python interpreter to run third party
frameworks such as django or trac using wsgi.

Graham Dumpleton outlines his wsgi vision here:
http://www.modpython.org/pipermail/...ber/022841.html
but to summarize, mod_python might evolve into 2 separate modules:
mod_python (swigged version) for full access to the httpd API; and
mod_wsgi, which would be a cut down version offering only an interpreter
and a wsgi interface for 3rd party applications. Graham believes
mod_wsgi could be compatible with httpd 1.3 and thus improve the uptake
of Python for a lot of shared hosting environments, many of which are
regrettably stuck at 1.3.

Some further musings on mod_python architectural changes:
http://www.modpython.org/pipermail/...ber/022881.html
where Graham explores the idea of making mod_python more modular. A new
core module would be created, with the current mod_python API or
mod_wsgi as personalities on top of that core.

I think there is great merit in Graham's ideas, so if we are going to
move to a TLP I'd like to make sure we build for this future. I'm not
saying things will evolve this way for sure, but if we are making
infrastructure changes now we may as well plan for this future growth.

I hope Graham has a chance to chip in here, but he is on holiday right
now and may not check his email within the 72 hour time frame for the
vote. I know it is not binding but I'm confident he would support
mod_python becoming a TLP. In fact I believe he alludes to such in the
second email linked above.

At any rate, I'd be very happy to server on the new PMC, and if there a
lack of candidates I would stand for the chair as well.

Sincerely,
Jim Gallacher

Roy T. Fielding wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> With my VP, Apache HTTP Server, pointy hat on...
>
> Generally speaking, the goal of any Apache project is that the people
> who are doing the work should also be the ones with the responsibility
> for making the rules, deciding when to release, resolving their own
> conflicts, inviting new committers, making infrastructure requests,
> and occasionally reporting to the ASF board about all of the above.
> The mod_python committers have effectively been doing that for a long
> time, on their own, and with no problems apparent to my eyes. However,
> mod_python is currently an official responsibility of the HTTP Server
> project, as a whole, and for me in particular to report on it.
>
> The board is meeting on the 20th, which means I need to prepare a
> report before the 18th, and one of the things I'd like to say in
> that report is that the mod_python developers have decided to form
> their own top-level project, with its own chair/VP, and here is the
> resolution to make it happen.
>
> Of course, I can't really do that unless that is what you actually
> want me to do, so the first step is to vote:
>
> +1 approve requesting a mod_python TLP
> 0 don't care
> -1 opposed to doing our own laundry
>
> The vote shall be open 72 hours or until all of the mod_python
> core group members have voted, whichever is earlier.
>
> The second step is to acknowledge that, if approved, you would
> like to be named as one of the PMC members of a mod_python project
> in the proposed board resolution.
>
> The third step is to please nominate one of those PMC members to
> be named as the chair/VP responsible for interacting with the ASF
> board. It should be someone who is willing to listen to the board
> mailing list, able to make infrastructure requests on behalf of the
> project, and desiring to facilitate (not dictate) decisions to be
> made by the project. It is not a "technical lead" style of position,
> though there are many technical leaders who also happen to be good
> project chairs. Feel free to nominate or un-nominate yourself.
>
> If there is more than one nominee that wants to be chair, then
> I will set up a quick vote or suitably random toss after the rest
> of the resolution is determined. Please note that the chair serves
> as the representative of the board, so it is the board that actually
> decides who will be chair and can replace the chair at any time,
> though they usually follow the project's nomination.
>
> Cheers,
>
> ....Roy
>

Justin Erenkrantz

2007-02-09, 1:12 pm

On 2/9/07, Jim Gallacher <jgallacher@apache.org> wrote:
> Would it be possible to expand the proposal a little, whereby we would
> become a TLP for Python modules for httpd, rather than just mod_python
> as a TLP?

Certainly!

> At any rate, I'd be very happy to server on the new PMC, and if there a
> lack of candidates I would stand for the chair as well.

FWIW, I would be more than happy to be on a mod_python PMC - if only
to ensure that there's some communication with the httpd folks and
that ya'll aren't stuck on a deserted island. =) -- justin

Roy T. Fielding

2007-02-09, 7:12 pm

On Feb 9, 2007, at 8:30 AM, Jim Gallacher wrote:

> Hi Roy,
>
> +1 approve requesting a mod_python TLP
>
> +2 to the alterative: approve requesting a Python TLP

I think that would be fine, except you will have to come up with a
name that is not "Apache Python Project". That is essentially a
trademark infringement and I know the PERL community doesn't like
the way we named Perl-Apache either. Java became Jakarta for the
same reason.

.....Roy

Jim Gallacher

2007-02-09, 7:12 pm

Roy T. Fielding wrote:
> On Feb 9, 2007, at 8:30 AM, Jim Gallacher wrote:
>
>
> I think that would be fine, except you will have to come up with a
> name that is not "Apache Python Project". That is essentially a
> trademark infringement and I know the PERL community doesn't like
> the way we named Perl-Apache either. Java became Jakarta for the
> same reason.

I wondered about the trademark issue.

How is it handled within the ASF if we coin a new name? Do we just come
up with a name and hope for the best or does the foundation need to
trademark it? For example I see that "Tomcat" and "Apache Tomcat" are
trademarked, but I don't see anything for Jakarta.

Any guidance would be appreciated.

Jim

Jim Gallacher

2007-02-10, 1:12 pm

Jim Gallacher wrote:
> Roy T. Fielding wrote:
>
> I wondered about the trademark issue.
>
> How is it handled within the ASF if we coin a new name? Do we just come
> up with a name and hope for the best or does the foundation need to
> trademark it? For example I see that "Tomcat" and "Apache Tomcat" are
> trademarked, but I don't see anything for Jakarta.
>
> Any guidance would be appreciated.
>

On the other hand, we could always ask the PSF for permission to use
"Python" as in "The Apache Python Project". The worst that could happen
is they might so "no". Their guidelines seem fairly generous as long as
our stuff is related to the Python programming language.

http://www.python.org/psf/trademarks/

Jim

Graham Dumpleton

2007-02-11, 1:13 am

Jim Gallacher wrote ..
> I hope Graham has a chance to chip in here, but he is on holiday right
> now and may not check his email within the 72 hour time frame for the
> vote. I know it is not binding but I'm confident he would support
> mod_python becoming a TLP. In fact I believe he alludes to such in the
> second email linked above.

I'll hopefully have proper Internet access at my next stopping
point so can read all this stuff properly and comment. Am sitting
in airport at the moment waiting for a plane.

I'd only be happy with new TLP for Python in Apache if the current
problems with the www.modpython.org site not really being under the
control of the ASF are resolved. We can't be dependent on someone
who is now not even part time on mod_python to make changes to the
web site.

BTW, mod_wsgi already exists and I was going to release it through
my own site in March when I come back from holidays. I was going to
do it off my own site because there was no scope within mod_python
project under ASF to do it and also because there is no distinct
ASF site for Python under Apache in general. I'd have to see what
happens over the next couple of weeks to see if I would change my
mind and wait until it could be done under the ASF somehow. I had
considered an Apache labs project, but then can't do releases. I
didn't want to do it as a sandbox under mod_python because of the
site documentation issue.

More later ...

Graham

Roy T. Fielding

2007-02-12, 1:14 am

On Feb 7, 2007, at 6:47 PM, Roy T. Fielding wrote:
> The vote shall be open 72 hours or until all of the mod_python
> core group members have voted, whichever is earlier.

Well, I didn't get enough responses, so this will have to wait
until after folks figure out what to do next.

.....Roy

Jim Gallacher

2007-02-12, 1:12 pm

Roy T. Fielding wrote:
> On Feb 7, 2007, at 6:47 PM, Roy T. Fielding wrote:
>
> Well, I didn't get enough responses, so this will have to wait
> until after folks figure out what to do next.

Bad timing I guess. We'll have to try to get our act together in time
for the March 21 board meeting.

For your February report to the board, mod_python 3.3.1 is ready for
release - just waiting for Grisha to make the public announcement. Other
than that things are pretty quiet around here right now.

Jim G.

Gregory (Grisha) Trubetskoy

2007-02-13, 1:14 am

Sorry - for technical reasons (serious home server crash) I missed this
thread entirely, and for the same reason i'm lagging on the releasing
mod_python that's ready to go.

I am for making mod_python a TLP, and I also support Jim's suggestion of
making it more general. So a late +1.

I didn't see any suggestion of who the person interfacing with the board
would be - i'd be happy to be it, as with my current schedule i'm probably
only good for "administrative" tasks of this sort anyhow.

P.S. Also agree with Graham re modpython.org site - but that's an issue
not related to Python being TLP, it's just that some day someone needs to
do the work of migrating the mailing list and its archive and the site to
apache infra.

Grisha

On Sun, 11 Feb 2007, Roy T. Fielding wrote:

> On Feb 7, 2007, at 6:47 PM, Roy T. Fielding wrote:
>
> Well, I didn't get enough responses, so this will have to wait
> until after folks figure out what to do next.
>
> ....Roy
>

Jim Gallacher

2007-02-13, 1:12 pm

Gregory (Grisha) Trubetskoy wrote:
>
> Sorry - for technical reasons (serious home server crash) I missed this
> thread entirely, and for the same reason i'm lagging on the releasing
> mod_python that's ready to go.
>
> I am for making mod_python a TLP, and I also support Jim's suggestion of
> making it more general. So a late +1.
>
> I didn't see any suggestion of who the person interfacing with the board
> would be - i'd be happy to be it, as with my current schedule i'm
> probably only good for "administrative" tasks of this sort anyhow.
>
> P.S. Also agree with Graham re modpython.org site - but that's an issue
> not related to Python being TLP, it's just that some day someone needs
> to do the work of migrating the mailing list and its archive and the
> site to apache infra.

Although migrating modpython.org to the Apache infrastructure may not be
related to being a TLP, it would make sense to do it in conjunction with
that change. I'd be happy to coordinate that move and I'm sure I can
recruit some help.

Jim

Gregory (Grisha) Trubetskoy

2007-02-14, 7:12 pm

On Tue, 13 Feb 2007, Jim Gallacher wrote:

> Although migrating modpython.org to the Apache infrastructure may not be
> related to being a TLP, it would make sense to do it in conjunction with
> that change. I'd be happy to coordinate that move and I'm sure I can
> recruit some help.

My first reaction was - why wait?, but I seem to recall now that the
show-stopper was that modpython.org required its own zone/jail (virtual
server basically) and that the policy is (or was at the time) to only
allow zones for TLP's, so it may have to be TLP first, relocate
modpython.org second.

I personally have no objections to moving it like tomorrow

Grisha

Gregory (Grisha) Trubetskoy

2007-05-09, 1:13 pm

Reviving this thread...

After some discussion on the Httpd PMC on this matter, I think we all
agree that we would like to request a general Python TLP of the board.
There are, however, two issues that need further discussion:

1. "Python" is not a good name for this project because "Apache Python"
will just be too confusing and probably infringes on a PSF trademark. So
if you have any creative suggestions, send them in, don't be shy, even if
you think they may sound a little stupid at first :-)

2. The matter of who will be on the initial PMC and who will chair it.
Based on previous responses to this thread, the initial PMC will look at
least as follows:

Graham Dumpleton
Justin Erenkrantz
Jim Gallacher
Nicolas Lehuen
Gregory Trubetskoy

(Anyone else you think should be in the list - please step forward. I
think a prerequisite is prior ASF experience - committer, PMC member or
ASF member or preferably all three)

I volunteer to do the chair role - which basically means watching what we
do and keeping it organized and reporting/recording it.

After some discussion I will summarize what we arrive at and if we all
agree, it will be proposed to the Httpd PMC, who will then vote on it and
then we will submit it to the board.

Grisha

On Tue, 13 Feb 2007, Jim Gallacher wrote:
[vbcol=seagreen]
> Gregory (Grisha) Trubetskoy wrote:

Graham Dumpleton

2007-05-10, 1:13 am

On 10/05/07, Gregory (Grisha) Trubetskoy <grisha@apache.org> wrote:
> 1. "Python" is not a good name for this project because "Apache Python"
> will just be too confusing and probably infringes on a PSF trademark. So
> if you have any creative suggestions, send them in, don't be shy, even if
> you think they may sound a little stupid at first :-)

How about 'Asphyxia'. This being the outcome if a Python gets you. :-)

Since the reason for the TLP being for Python rather than just
mod_python was the idea there might be more than just the mod_python
project, ie., other Apache/Python modules, then maybe call it
'Pythonidae'. This is the more technical name for the family of snakes
which people call Pythons. Not sure how you are meant to pronounce
that though.

Graham

Ulf Wostner

2007-05-10, 7:12 am

How about naming it PyPache ?

Ulf

On Wed May 9 2007 05:56 pm Graham Dumpleton wrote:
> On 10/05/07, Gregory (Grisha) Trubetskoy <grisha@apache.org> wrote:
>
> How about 'Asphyxia'. This being the outcome if a Python gets you. :-)
>
> Since the reason for the TLP being for Python rather than just
> mod_python was the idea there might be more than just the mod_python
> project, ie., other Apache/Python modules, then maybe call it
> 'Pythonidae'. This is the more technical name for the family of snakes
> which people call Pythons. Not sure how you are meant to pronounce
> that though.
>
> Graham

Jim Gallacher

2007-05-10, 1:13 pm

Graham Dumpleton wrote:
> On 10/05/07, Gregory (Grisha) Trubetskoy <grisha@apache.org> wrote:
>
> How about 'Asphyxia'. This being the outcome if a Python gets you. :-)
>
> Since the reason for the TLP being for Python rather than just
> mod_python was the idea there might be more than just the mod_python
> project, ie., other Apache/Python modules, then maybe call it
> 'Pythonidae'. This is the more technical name for the family of snakes
> which people call Pythons. Not sure how you are meant to pronounce
> that though.

I like that one. Another, less scientific, possibility might be
pythonalia (python + miscellania).

I wonder if we might still run into trademark issues if we still use a
word containing python?

Jim

Jorey Bump

2007-05-10, 1:13 pm

Gregory (Grisha) Trubetskoy wrote:

> 1. "Python" is not a good name for this project because "Apache Python"
> will just be too confusing and probably infringes on a PSF trademark. So
> if you have any creative suggestions, send them in, don't be shy, even
> if you think they may sound a little stupid at first :-)

Apache includes a feather in its logo, and Python is associated with a
snake. "Quetzalcoatl" means "feathered snake" and does not appear to be
used by any other software project.

Mike Looijmans

2007-05-10, 1:13 pm

> Apache includes a feather in its logo, and Python is associated with a
> snake. "Quetzalcoatl" means "feathered snake" and does not appear to be
> used by any other software project.

Which I can fully understand, because "Quetzalcoatl" is harder to pronounce than the 16 character
password for the mainframe that was generated using /dev/random.

I liked "Asphyxia" though. Makes a nice password too.

Mike.

Jorey Bump

2007-05-10, 1:13 pm

Mike Looijmans wrote:
>
> Which I can fully understand, because "Quetzalcoatl" is harder to
> pronounce than the 16 character password for the mainframe that was
> generated using /dev/random.

I admit I like the logic more than the name itself.

> I liked "Asphyxia" though. Makes a nice password too.

To me, "Asphyxia" has *extremely* negative connotations, and really
stretches the limits of clever association.

Another name that comes to mind is "Scales", playing on the Apache
feather motif, but I fear it will be lost in search results among pages
that discuss how well "Apache scales".

Graham Dumpleton

2007-05-10, 7:12 pm

On 10/05/07, Jim Gallacher <jpg@jgassociates.ca> wrote:
> I like that one. Another, less scientific, possibility might be
> pythonalia (python + miscellania).

That reminds me of news broadcasts where they talk about police
arresting people in possession of drug paraphernalia. :-)

In a similar extension though, there is always the 'Apache Pythonistas' project.

Where people have mentioned the feather, may be we can call it
'PigeonPy'. This is sort of having a slight dig at the 'CherryPy'
symbolism if you get it.

For a really obscure reference, try 'Pungi'. I'll let you all work out
that one by yourself.

Graham

Graham Dumpleton

2007-05-14, 7:12 pm

Not necessarily wanting to see this discussion die again, how about
just calling it the 'PythonScript' project. Name means it is still
obvious and I can't see how we would have issues with a composite name
like that as far as PSF trademark goes, but then could be wrong.

On 11/05/07, Graham Dumpleton <graham.dumpleton@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 10/05/07, Jim Gallacher <jpg@jgassociates.ca> wrote:
>
> That reminds me of news broadcasts where they talk about police
> arresting people in possession of drug paraphernalia. :-)
>
> In a similar extension though, there is always the 'Apache Pythonistas' project.
>
> Where people have mentioned the feather, may be we can call it
> 'PigeonPy'. This is sort of having a slight dig at the 'CherryPy'
> symbolism if you get it.
>
> For a really obscure reference, try 'Pungi'. I'll let you all work out
> that one by yourself.
>
> Graham
>

Gregory (Grisha) Trubetskoy

2007-05-24, 7:12 pm

OK, now that we have a name, I'd like to make sure we agree on what we're
going to submit to the board, namely that:

1. We'd like a TLP for the purpose of overseeing Python projects which
includes mod_python.

2. We'd like to name this project Quetzalcoatl.

3. The initial PMC will be:

Graham Dumpleton
Justin Erenkrantz
Jim Gallacher
Nicolas Lehuen
Gregory Trubetskoy

4. We'd like the TLP domain name to be python.apache.org.

(Am I missing any steps here?)

So if you have any issues with the above please respond by the end of this
week, otherwise it means we all agree on this.

Grisha