Macromedia Flash Server - problem with feedback.

Author

problem with feedback.

Xiaolei Shi

2005-11-11, 5:46 pm

Feedback for me seems for me a fundamental problem with video-conferencing
web apps.

Alot of people have delegated this problem toward its usual place:
physics/acoustics. The programmatic solutions that I've seen so far were
simply cut offs (cellphones) and "echo supression" (macromedia) and not
cancellation. My question is are there stronger solutions that exist or am =
I
barking up the wrong tree? Can I somehow tag the sound data for a quick
pass?

~XiaoLei Shi

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JesterXL

2005-11-11, 5:46 pm

In Flash Player 8 and below, only sure fire fix is everyone wearing
headphones; or those who don't choose not to broadcast their mic.

In Flash Player 8.5, it may be possible to check the sound data for echoes
and remove them; the useEchoSupression algorithm could probably be
reproduced and maybe expanded/improved upon in AS3 using the ByteArray to
inspect the stream. Just guessing here as I haven't see the
useEchoSuppression, nor have any negative opinions towards it's quality.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Xiaolei Shi" <7thguardian-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
To: "FlashComm Mailing List" <flashcomm-1Ss2GqJETD3yZ38Mhd3e/9ZfFG6BLHNm@public.gmane.org>
Sent: Friday, November 11, 2005 11:42 AM
Subject: [FlashComm] problem with feedback.

Feedback for me seems for me a fundamental problem with video-conferencing
web apps.

Alot of people have delegated this problem toward its usual place:
physics/acoustics. The programmatic solutions that I've seen so far were
simply cut offs (cellphones) and "echo supression" (macromedia) and not
cancellation. My question is are there stronger solutions that exist or am I
barking up the wrong tree? Can I somehow tag the sound data for a quick
pass?

~XiaoLei Shi

Supported by Fig Leaf Software - http://www.figleaf.com

To change your subscription options or search the archive:
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Dario De Agostini

2005-11-14, 7:45 am

JesterXL wrote:

>In Flash Player 8 and below, only sure fire fix is everyone wearing
>headphones; or those who don't choose not to broadcast their mic.
>
>
/rant on
sadly, MM did a good job on echo suppression... available only in breeze

that option on flash player 7&8 is just completely unuseful. It doesn't
do anything at all.
just try it by yourself.

telling clients that they should lower their microphone is just not an
option... you know that.
especially nowadays ... days in which EVERY audio solution implement a
GOOD echo cancellation system.

flash player keeps being awesome for animations and similar... keeps
being just unuseful (due to "stupid" things which could be solved in
just few days) for serious stuff.
what's the point of having a system which is deployed on 99% clients...
when the ppl who use the computer can't use it because of a simple
microphone echo ?
/rant off

Dario De Agostini

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Bill Sanders

2005-11-14, 7:45 am

Dario,

I had pretty good luck with it--Microphone.setEchoSuppression(true).
What problems are you having with it?

Thanks,
Bill

On Nov 14, 2005, at 6:51 AM, Dario De Agostini wrote:

> JesterXL wrote:
>
> /rant on
> sadly, MM did a good job on echo suppression... available only in
> breeze

> that option on flash player 7&8 is just completely unuseful. It
> doesn't do anything at all.
> just try it by yourself.
>
> telling clients that they should lower their microphone is just not
> an option... you know that.
> especially nowadays ... days in which EVERY audio solution
> implement a GOOD echo cancellation system.
>
> flash player keeps being awesome for animations and similar...
> keeps being just unuseful (due to "stupid" things which could be
> solved in just few days) for serious stuff.
> what's the point of having a system which is deployed on 99%
> clients... when the ppl who use the computer can't use it because
> of a simple microphone echo ?
> /rant off
>
>

>
> Dario De Agostini
>
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> =-----------------------------------------------------------
>
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bill sanders | www.sandlight.com | bloomfield, ct | 860-242-2260

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2005-11-14, 7:45 am

Tru attaching the mic audio to a movelcip and then a sound object and
make the volume 0
Then you will not hear yourself so put a volume bar so the user can see
that his voice is getting over

-----Original Message-----
From: flashcomm-bounces-1Ss2GqJETD3yZ38Mhd3e/9ZfFG6BLHNm@public.gmane.org
[mailto:flashcomm-bounces-1Ss2GqJETD3yZ38Mhd3e/9ZfFG6BLHNm@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Bill
Sanders
Sent: Monday, November 14, 2005 2:13 PM
To: FlashComm Mailing List
Subject: Re: [FlashComm] problem with feedback.

Dario,

I had pretty good luck with it--Microphone.setEchoSuppression(true).
What problems are you having with it?

Thanks,
Bill

On Nov 14, 2005, at 6:51 AM, Dario De Agostini wrote:

> JesterXL wrote:
>
> /rant on
> sadly, MM did a good job on echo suppression... available only in
> breeze

Dario De Agostini

2005-11-14, 7:45 am

dan-hoNGlbeT4xD6gbPvEgmw2w@public.gmane.org wrote:

>Tru attaching the mic audio to a movelcip and then a sound object and
>make the volume 0
>Then you will not hear yourself so put a volume bar so the user can see
>that his voice is getting over
>
>
?
that's not the problem.
if my "mic" has enough gain it can capture the audio which is being
outputted by the speakers (oh, my english!)

if more than 1 person has this config (typical) you won't be able to
hear/talk due to echoes.

Dario De Agostini

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Dario De Agostini

2005-11-14, 5:45 pm

Bill Sanders wrote:

> Dario,
>
> I had pretty good luck with it--Microphone.setEchoSuppression(true).
> What problems are you having with it?
>
well... it simply does nothing ...
i'll try to explain.
you are using speakers. you are deaf (just an assuption which may be
true when talking about our clients) so you keep your speakers volume
very high.
your microphone is the typical cheap microphone bundled with the webcam
(or the webcam internal one) which has a HUGE gain... it can capture a
fly in you room.

when this happens (which, sadly is really common) you will send over the
network the audio which you hear from speakers.

when i talk to you i will hear "back" my voice with huge echo because
you have this setting.

if you apply the same situation with, say, skype you won't have
problems... same with breeze (afaik), msn etc etc.
echo reduction is a must when talking about PC conferencing.

I'd love to find out it's a problem which affects only me...

Dario De Agostini

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Vincent Maitray

2005-11-14, 5:45 pm

Not only you Dario...

For me it's a major issue of FCS / FMS2 and we found no solution for =20=

this. We use FCS to broadcast a webtv program every week, and we have =20=

'local' people on the stage where the show is streamed from, and one =20
or two 'remote' ones in duplex mode... every person on the stage has =20
to wear an ear plug if we want to hear what the remote guy says... it =20=

is very difficult to manage and expensive too...
So sad that FCS won't do any feedback deletion...

But it's not the major issue concerning live events I think : at this =20=

time it is impossible to know if yes or no FMS2 will support ON2 VP6 =20
for live...

Vincent Maitray

Le 14 nov. 05 =E0 14:43, Dario De Agostini a =E9crit :

> Bill Sanders wrote:
>
> well... it simply does nothing ...
> i'll try to explain.
> you are using speakers. you are deaf (just an assuption which may =20
> be true when talking about our clients) so you keep your speakers =20
> volume very high.
> your microphone is the typical cheap microphone bundled with the =20
> webcam (or the webcam internal one) which has a HUGE gain... it can =20=

> capture a fly in you room.
>
> when this happens (which, sadly is really common) you will send =20
> over the network the audio which you hear from speakers.
>
> when i talk to you i will hear "back" my voice with huge echo =20
> because you have this setting.
>
> if you apply the same situation with, say, skype you won't have =20
> problems... same with breeze (afaik), msn etc etc.
> echo reduction is a must when talking about PC conferencing.
>
> I'd love to find out it's a problem which affects only me...
>
> Dario De Agostini
>
>
> =3D-----------------------------------------------------------
> Supported by Fig Leaf Software - http://www.figleaf.com
> =3D-----------------------------------------------------------
>
> To change your subscription options or search the archive:
> http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcomm

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Dario De Agostini

2005-11-14, 5:45 pm

Vincent Maitray wrote:

>
> So sad that FCS won't do any feedback deletion...
>
> But it's not the major issue concerning live events I think : at this
> time it is impossible to know if yes or no FMS2 will support ON2 VP6
> for live...
>
> Vincent Maitray

sadly we already know it won't support that.
this is (most likely) due to the size it would bring to the flashplayer.
the encoding is done by each client and MM needs to have the most
lightweight client as possible.
this is the main reason... the 2nd one is due to the VP6 algorithm
itself which is not suitable for real time encoding (this is a very long
thing to explain, i think fabio sonnati gave some inside about it some
time ago in his blog http://flashvideo.progettosinergia.it )

Dario De Agostini

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Vincent Maitray

2005-11-14, 5:45 pm

Yes I know that... there is some hope anyway... take a look at this =20
thread :

http://www.macromedia.com/cfusion/w...ageview.cfm?=20
catid=3D578&threadid=3D1060475&enterthread=3Dy

Vincent

Le 14 nov. 05 =E0 17:06, Dario De Agostini a =E9crit :

> Vincent Maitray wrote:
>
[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> sadly we already know it won't support that.
> this is (most likely) due to the size it would bring to the =20
> flashplayer.
> the encoding is done by each client and MM needs to have the most =20
> lightweight client as possible.
> this is the main reason... the 2nd one is due to the VP6 algorithm =20
> itself which is not suitable for real time encoding (this is a very =20=

> long thing to explain, i think fabio sonnati gave some inside about =20=

> it some time ago in his blog http://flashvideo.progettosinergia.it )
>
> Dario De Agostini
>
> =3D-----------------------------------------------------------
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> =3D-----------------------------------------------------------
>
> To change your subscription options or search the archive:
> http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcomm

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Dario De Agostini

2005-11-14, 5:45 pm

Vincent Maitray wrote:

> Yes I know that... there is some hope anyway... take a look at this
> thread :
>
> http://www.macromedia.com/cfusion/w...essageview.cfm?
> catid=578&threadid=1060475&enterthread=y
>
yes, i know that.
but i wouldn't call that hope

deep in your heart you know it won't come to us, mere mortals

Like screensharing, like echo reduction and many other features...

By the way, the JDK for fms only allows (afaik) to treat basic data...
no audio/video streams.
i mean, you can "manage" streams... for sending .send messages,
cuepoints etc etc, but you can't inject video over a stream.
That's what i understood... but i'd love to be wrong.

Dario De Agostini

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