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Feedback Forum: I lost my deal because . . .
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| Asa Whillock 2006-02-25, 5:47 pm |
| Hey all,
I'm looking for more of the continued great feedback that we've been
getting from you guys. One of the things that's very clear here is that
many of you are application resellers, pitch men, rogue contractors,
ninjas, flash masters, and what not. In other words, you're not
necessarily the one who writes the cheque for FMS, but you build the app
and demo it to customers who will. =20
What I'm interested in now is - why do you lose deals with FMS? I
realize it's not the most pleasant topic in the world, but it's
important. Believe it or not, I'm very interested in the "Your
Licensing Sucks" discussions and "Where's my Personal Edition" because
it tells everyone here at Adobe what you need. Now I'm more oriented
around the tech elements, so I'm a better receptacle for "I need one of
these and you don't have it!" The point being, occasionally y'all are
going to pitch FMS and it doesn't take - I'm interested in why. If you
can, please tell the story behind it because it might be very valuable
for the community as we're all rooting for the success of FMS here.
Asa
-----Original Message-----
From: flashcomm-bounces-1Ss2GqJETD3yZ38Mhd3e/9ZfFG6BLHNm@public.gmane.org
[mailto:flashcomm-bounces-1Ss2GqJETD3yZ38Mhd3e/9ZfFG6BLHNm@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Graeme
Bull
Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2006 10:41 AM
To: 'FlashComm Mailing List'
Subject: RE: [FlashComm] SetInterval : bugs ?
haha, that is funny. I didn't even come close to catching that one.
it's just far too early on this saturday morning for me to keep up. I
shall
bow out gracefully.
G =20
-----Original Message-----
From: flashcomm-bounces-1Ss2GqJETD3yZ38Mhd3e/9ZfFG6BLHNm@public.gmane.org
[mailto:flashcomm-bounces-1Ss2GqJETD3yZ38Mhd3e/9ZfFG6BLHNm@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of
lti-1a8g-LMbKfuCQv7pBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2006 4:03 AM
To: FlashComm Mailing List
Subject: Re: [FlashComm] SetInterval : bugs ?
<OT> Hmm looks like I'd better stick to IT rather than to force upon my
comedic talents and start a second career :/
> MM has always been *very* prompt to fix bugs in its products -=20
> including localized versions - /_*up to this date*_/,
>
> Sincerely yours,
> lti-1a8g, /_*25th February 1996.*_/
</OT>
Regards,
lti-1a8g, Ministry of Silly Walks.
Graeme Bull wrote:
>Yes.. you're right.. their updates have been "real-time"ly... hahaha
>
>I made a funny :D
>
>Sorry you feel I'm excessively negative. I don't think that about a=20
>year or so from the original release of FCS1.5 to release an update is=20
>so timely, but perhaps you and I have a different perspective on that.=20
>I can respect that.
>
>This is far far OT though, sorry for the flak everybody.
>
>To summarize though to bring things back to the topic at hand, the=20
>setInterval bug was fixed in the "Update 2" for FCS1.5 and has yet to=20
>show it's ugly head in FMS2 or FMS2.0.1.
>
>A simple example too just to prove it:
>
>application.onAppStart =3D function(){
> trace("application has started");
> this.myInt =3D setInterval(giveMeSomeSkinBaby, 1000); }
>
>function giveMeSomeSkinBaby(){
> trace("here you go sugar daddy");
>}
>
>Cordially yours,
>Graeme, 3rd April 1823
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: flashcomm-bounces-1Ss2GqJETD3yZ38Mhd3e/9ZfFG6BLHNm@public.gmane.org
>[mailto:flashcomm-bounces-1Ss2GqJETD3yZ38Mhd3e/9ZfFG6BLHNm@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of=20
>lti-1a8g-LMbKfuCQv7pBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org
>Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2006 2:07 AM
>To: FlashComm Mailing List
>Subject: Re: [FlashComm] SetInterval : bugs ?
>
>Sir, I find your attitude excessively negative.
>MM has always been *very* prompt to fix bugs in its products -=20
>including localized versions - up to this date,
>
>Sincerely yours,
>lti-1a8g, 25th February 1996.
>
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| |
| Phillip Kerman 2006-02-26, 5:45 pm |
| > What I'm interested in now is - why do you lose deals with FMS?
Because you're asking I'll tell you my general feeling that's made me
transition away from FMS--it's really simple: if MM/Adobe wants to
effectively compete with their clients then it's going to be tough for us.
Take the fact that Breeze is effectively an FCS turnkey app that we can't
compete with for several reasons. To me, you go in this direction and
you'll run into problems.
This isn't the only example, but it's just one reason why I don't even
bother (well, I don't bother THAT much) trying to pitch FCS.
Thanks,
Phillip
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| |
| Graeme Bull 2006-02-26, 5:45 pm |
| because:
1. too expensive
2. lack of developers
3. lack of real information of stats on performance etc
4. lack of information about the technology in general
5. lack of precedents of really successful apps/sites
6. expensive to develop for (supply and demand ,see lack of developers)
7. lack of screensharing (this has bit us too many times)
8. no clustering ability (unless you build it yourself , and origin/edge
server licenses aren't in most companies budgets, especially with no
information on performance stats etc on them)
9. lack of ability to talk to other technologies (this has changed somewhat
with the FMS2)
10. lack of being able to do anything with FLV files
These are all valid complaints we have heard so far (there are more I
think.. but I can't grab them off the top of my head), not necessarily our
complaints here in the shop.
Graeme
-----Original Message-----
From: flashcomm-bounces-1Ss2GqJETD3yZ38Mhd3e/9ZfFG6BLHNm@public.gmane.org
[mailto:flashcomm-bounces-1Ss2GqJETD3yZ38Mhd3e/9ZfFG6BLHNm@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Phillip Kerman
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2006 9:13 AM
To: 'FlashComm Mailing List'
Subject: RE: [FlashComm] Feedback Forum: I lost my deal because . . .
> What I'm interested in now is - why do you lose deals with FMS?
Because you're asking I'll tell you my general feeling that's made me
transition away from FMS--it's really simple: if MM/Adobe wants to
effectively compete with their clients then it's going to be tough for us.
Take the fact that Breeze is effectively an FCS turnkey app that we can't
compete with for several reasons. To me, you go in this direction and
you'll run into problems.
This isn't the only example, but it's just one reason why I don't even
bother (well, I don't bother THAT much) trying to pitch FCS.
Thanks,
Phillip
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| |
|
| > 1. too expensive <============ Look Here !!!!!!
> 8. no clustering ability (origin/edge) <======= See Number 1
> 9. lack of ability to talk to other technologies <====== Deal Breaker
These three have all been deal breakers for me.
ryanm
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| |
| Brian Lesser 2006-02-26, 5:45 pm |
| Hi Asa,
I don't qualify as a rogue pitch reseller but I can add a little to this.
There are all sorts of applications I'd like build with FMS or add FMS
to at my University:
1. Portal notice and alert system
2. Portal who is online system/quick chat system
3. IT real-time emergency response system
4. Real-time help coordination in our Portal help system (so help desk
operators can discuss problems and coordinate their work better - no one
grabs the same ticket).
5. Real-time lab availability system - point students to the lab with
the most free seats and not scheduled to be used for a class.
etc...
But I'm not doing any of it because the portal often sees 5000
simultaneous users and I want to reserve the connections and bandwidth
for the essential FMS things I need to do because we started down that
path. In the mean time Windows media is becoming more entrenched here
every day. I had a desktop machine reserved so I could play with
Sparkle. One of our media gurus grabbed it so he could play with
Sparkle. I'll have to order another one now. Or maybe a few more...
Yours truly,
-Brian
Asa Whillock wrote:
>Hey all,
>
>I'm looking for more of the continued great feedback that we've been
>getting from you guys. One of the things that's very clear here is that
>many of you are application resellers, pitch men, rogue contractors,
>ninjas, flash masters, and what not. In other words, you're not
>necessarily the one who writes the cheque for FMS, but you build the app
>and demo it to customers who will.
>
>What I'm interested in now is - why do you lose deals with FMS? I
>realize it's not the most pleasant topic in the world, but it's
>important. Believe it or not, I'm very interested in the "Your
>Licensing Sucks" discussions and "Where's my Personal Edition" because
>it tells everyone here at Adobe what you need. Now I'm more oriented
>around the tech elements, so I'm a better receptacle for "I need one of
>these and you don't have it!" The point being, occasionally y'all are
>going to pitch FMS and it doesn't take - I'm interested in why. If you
>can, please tell the story behind it because it might be very valuable
>for the community as we're all rooting for the success of FMS here.
>
>Asa
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: flashcomm-bounces-1Ss2GqJETD3yZ38Mhd3e/9ZfFG6BLHNm@public.gmane.org
>[mailto:flashcomm-bounces-1Ss2GqJETD3yZ38Mhd3e/9ZfFG6BLHNm@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Graeme
>Bull
>Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2006 10:41 AM
>To: 'FlashComm Mailing List'
>Subject: RE: [FlashComm] SetInterval : bugs ?
>
>haha, that is funny. I didn't even come close to catching that one.
>
>it's just far too early on this saturday morning for me to keep up. I
>shall
>bow out gracefully.
>
>G
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: flashcomm-bounces-1Ss2GqJETD3yZ38Mhd3e/9ZfFG6BLHNm@public.gmane.org
>[mailto:flashcomm-bounces-1Ss2GqJETD3yZ38Mhd3e/9ZfFG6BLHNm@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of
>lti-1a8g-LMbKfuCQv7pBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org
>Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2006 4:03 AM
>To: FlashComm Mailing List
>Subject: Re: [FlashComm] SetInterval : bugs ?
>
><OT> Hmm looks like I'd better stick to IT rather than to force upon my
>comedic talents and start a second career :/
>
>
>
>
></OT>
>
>Regards,
>lti-1a8g, Ministry of Silly Walks.
>
>Graeme Bull wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
________________________________________
______________________________
Brian Lesser
Assistant Director, Teaching and Technology Support
Computing and Communications Services
Ryerson University
350 Victoria St.
Toronto, Ontario Phone: (416) 979-5000 ext. 6835
M5B 2K3 Fax: (416) 979-5220
Office: AB48D E-mail: blesser-6s6ziW1YCwCw5LPnMra/2Q@public.gmane.org
(Enter through LB66) Web: http://www.ryerson.ca/~blesser
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| |
| Brian Lesser 2006-02-26, 5:45 pm |
| Yes, exactly. I was working on a modest conference app at Ryerson when
Breeze shipped. After looking at Breeze I bought that instead and ended
our work. So FCS lost out to Breeze in that case. It was not economical
to develop for FCS when Breeze already had so many features ready to go.
In Bruce Chizen's interview he says:
"We think Breeze, as a real-time collaboration solution, will allow us to enhance what we have already done with Acrobat, which is a serial communication product. So you will see us begin to marry Breeze
and Acrobat together. That will be a major focus."
See: http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/...Article&id=1399
Now, I'm not sure what that really means but I have halucinations of
Live Cycle enabled workflows in Breeze and who knows what else... maybe
easy MS Office document conversion and sharing in PDF?
Will there be a good financial reasons for Adobe to bring those new
technologies - whatever they turn out to be - into FMS?
Yours truly,
-Brian
Phillip Kerman wrote:
>
>Because you're asking I'll tell you my general feeling that's made me
>transition away from FMS--it's really simple: if MM/Adobe wants to
>effectively compete with their clients then it's going to be tough for us.
>Take the fact that Breeze is effectively an FCS turnkey app that we can't
>compete with for several reasons. To me, you go in this direction and
>you'll run into problems.
>
>This isn't the only example, but it's just one reason why I don't even
>bother (well, I don't bother THAT much) trying to pitch FCS.
>
>Thanks,
>Phillip
>
> ________________________________________
_______
>FlashComm-1Ss2GqJETD3yZ38Mhd3e/9ZfFG6BLHNm@public.gmane.org
>To change your subscription options or search the archive:
>http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcomm
>
>Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software
>Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training
>http://www.figleaf.com
>http://training.figleaf.com
>
>
--
________________________________________
______________________________
Brian Lesser
Assistant Director, Teaching and Technology Support
Computing and Communications Services
Ryerson University
350 Victoria St.
Toronto, Ontario Phone: (416) 979-5000 ext. 6835
M5B 2K3 Fax: (416) 979-5220
Office: AB48D E-mail: blesser-6s6ziW1YCwCw5LPnMra/2Q@public.gmane.org
(Enter through LB66) Web: http://www.ryerson.ca/~blesser
________________________________________
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| |
| Bill Sanders 2006-02-26, 5:45 pm |
| Hi Asa,
1. Big cost for little project: small/medium corp server application.
One of my clients has a lot of training sessions where no more than 5
people are involved--1 trainer and 4 trainees. It's an ongoing thing
and they slap FCS on the company server and can handle 2 or 3
simultaneous training sessions.
2. A specialized app with the main value being the ability to work
on a problem in different locations. A task team, for example,
working on an issue that needs just a little BW for the task. Lots of
different tasks that go on a company or department's server.
3. This recently came as a surprise to me: Re-selling apps w/ FCS.
One company is taking the apps that I thought I was building just for
their company and re-selling them to other companies along with FCS
Per edition.
4. Security applications. Nursing home with small server using FCS to
monitor different locations. Using Per Edition, it was far less
expensive than other systems, but with Pro Edition it would not be.
The other day Steve used the analogy of a big ship turning--takes
time for the good ship Adobe to change course. (Billy Gates turned
Microsoft on a dime when it dawned on him the importance of the
Internet.) I think that's the difference between having the small Per
edition and the Pro Edition. If an application use comes up, a
developer can put together an app for the Per edition quickly and
economically. It takes less meetings to pony up $500 plus another
$1000 for a small app. A bigger app and a bigger server takes more
time and a lot more meetings $4,500 for the server and $10,000 for
the app.
Sort of like taking a cannon to rob a 7-11 when all you need is a .38.
It's getting late for me and my analogies, and I've got to be ready
by 7:30 am tomorrow for the Italian carnival over FMS!
Bill
On Feb 25, 2006, at 6:37 PM, Asa Whillock wrote:
> Hey all,
>
> I'm looking for more of the continued great feedback that we've been
> getting from you guys. One of the things that's very clear here is
> that
> many of you are application resellers, pitch men, rogue contractors,
> ninjas, flash masters, and what not. In other words, you're not
> necessarily the one who writes the cheque for FMS, but you build
> the app
> and demo it to customers who will.
>
> What I'm interested in now is - why do you lose deals with FMS? I
> realize it's not the most pleasant topic in the world, but it's
> important. Believe it or not, I'm very interested in the "Your
> Licensing Sucks" discussions and "Where's my Personal Edition" because
> it tells everyone here at Adobe what you need. Now I'm more oriented
> around the tech elements, so I'm a better receptacle for "I need
> one of
> these and you don't have it!" The point being, occasionally y'all are
> going to pitch FMS and it doesn't take - I'm interested in why. If
> you
> can, please tell the story behind it because it might be very valuable
> for the community as we're all rooting for the success of FMS here.
>
> Asa
>
bill sanders | www.sandlight.com | bloomfield, ct | 860-242-2260
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| |
| Kevin Day 2006-02-26, 5:45 pm |
|
On Feb 25, 2006, at 5:37 PM, Asa Whillock wrote:
> Hey all,
>
> I'm looking for more of the continued great feedback that we've been
> getting from you guys. One of the things that's very clear here is
> that
> many of you are application resellers, pitch men, rogue contractors,
> ninjas, flash masters, and what not. In other words, you're not
> necessarily the one who writes the cheque for FMS, but you build
> the app
> and demo it to customers who will.
>
> What I'm interested in now is - why do you lose deals with FMS? I
> realize it's not the most pleasant topic in the world, but it's
> important. Believe it or not, I'm very interested in the "Your
> Licensing Sucks" discussions and "Where's my Personal Edition" because
> it tells everyone here at Adobe what you need. Now I'm more oriented
> around the tech elements, so I'm a better receptacle for "I need
> one of
> these and you don't have it!" The point being, occasionally y'all are
> going to pitch FMS and it doesn't take - I'm interested in why. If
> you
> can, please tell the story behind it because it might be very valuable
> for the community as we're all rooting for the success of FMS here.
>
> Asa
While I'm not selling solutions to customers or anything, I do have
to sell the use of FCS/FMS internally to those who would strongly
prefer that we use other solutions.
The big issues I have when trying to pitch FMS: (some of which I've
mentioned before)
1) Every other streaming video package has an "unlimited bandwidth/
connections/use" license, that is usually cheaper or roughly the same
price as one license of FMS. It means we have to take into account
popularity and estimated use when doing financial planning, which we
don't have to do anywhere else.
No matter what else is fixed, FMS is still far too expensive. For the
same price as FMS, I can get an entire Apple XServe server, the OS
and an unlimited license for Quicktime. For a little more than ONE
license of FMS, I can get a license for Real Unlimited Universal,
which is capable of live transcoding to just about every other
platform out there. I know you guys are proud of FMS, but you're
missing out on huge markets because of this. We've actually figured
out it would be cheaper to hire a few programmers for a couple of
months, reverse engineer RTMP and build our own server and open
source it than it would be to deploy FMS everywhere we'd like to.
That's a really dangerous position to put yourselves in. 
We run several sites each on their own physical server. Because of
the licensing scheme, we have to buy enough FMS licenses to handle
PEAK load on each server, with most of our capacity going to waste
95% of the time. Don't do make us do that.
2) It doesn't run on FreeBSD or OS X, our two preferred platforms.
This means we have to buy additional hardware just to run it, and
support "oddball" servers running a different OS. It *almost* runs
under FreeBSD's linux compatibility mode, and probably could with a
few minutes of someone at Adobe's time to tweak, or just flat out
recompile it as a FreeBSD binary. Even if it was a case of "We won't
support FreeBSD. If you have a bug, it has to be reproducible under
RedHat", we'd be fine with it. Just don't make us buy RedHat to
deploy everywhere.
3) There really needs to be a way to make a Developer's edition with
lots more bandwidth/connections. Cripple it somehow if you have to,
but we still can't do any kind of QA/Testing/Development of anything
under load without buying a license. If I can't give a demo of what
I'd like to do without spending money first, it's not going to happen.
4) Nobody here likes developing for SSAS, because there's no debugger/
IDE/development environment.
5) The server is really too much of a "black box" to do things that
you guys didn't anticipate. We spent weeks trying to force FCS/FMS to
do things it wasn't meant to.(Exporting images from live streams, for
example) There's no API to write our own modules. Even if you don't
provide the source to the server, you can still provide an API to
extend the interface. If we could write our own modules to do things
like exporting JPEGs from live streams, transcoding, direct database
interfaces, etc.... A whole industry could crop up writing extensions
for FMS. Give us lots of hooks, and the ability to compile and
dynamically load modules. RTMP isn't documented, meaning we can't
extend things from that angle either.
6) We can't do anything with FLV files on our end that doesn't
involve unspeakable evils of hackery. Even then, the audio codec
apparently can't be licensed for any price (Nelly-Moser won't respond
to emails or phone calls at all), so we can't export audio from live
streams no matter what. Give us a way to write out (IN PARALLEL to
writing out the FLV) something transcoded into a usable format for us
to script/convert/whatever.
7) It's next to impossible to get FCS/FMS to talk to other
applications. Just doing external authentication involves other
unspeakable evils with RPC calls. There's no way for us on the
outside to poll/request data from FMS, all we can do is push data
from the FMS side out.
8) The way the interim license->Dynamo upgrade was handled is a great
example of why we don't like being held to any kind of enforced
license scheme. The interim license (which we needed to do anything
useful with our FMS licenses) expired 2 business days after the
Dynamo upgrade was made available. This gave us NO time to do any
kind of testing, QA or development with it before we had to put it
live before a long weekend. We had to put an upgrade that we weren't
able to test into production far faster than we'd ever like to. Don't
tie us down to licenses like this. Give us an unlimited license for a
fair price, and we don't have to worry about a licensing system
shooting us in the foot later.
9) Adobe/Macromedia can't seem to make up their collective minds who
they're selling to. Are they providing server software for us to
produce software around(FMS)? Are they developing their own software
that has features we can't use (Breeze/Flex)? Or do they want to sell
authoring tools, and don't really care about the rest of it?(Studio)
What guarantee do we have that Flash Player 9 won't have RTMP
support, or won't have the Nelly-Moser codec or something, and
suddenly we won't be able to talk to users who upgrade their player?
Especially if this would suit MM's business interests? I know you're
not evil, Asa, but we've all become sorta wary of trusting a
corporation to not screw us over.
-- Kevin
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| Phillip Kerman 2006-02-26, 5:45 pm |
| > In Bruce Chizen's interview he says:
>
> "We think Breeze, as a real-time collaboration solution, will allow us to
enhance
> what we have already done with Acrobat, which is a serial communication
product.
> So you will see us begin to marry Breeze
> and Acrobat together. That will be a major focus."
>
> See: http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/...Article&id=1399
I read stuff like that and I'm totally confused. Is this to say Adobe is
going to target end user business user types? For sure, you can't have your
cake and eat it too.
Thanks,
Phillip
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| Phillip Kerman 2006-02-26, 5:45 pm |
| Another thing that's holding me back a little currently is how FES promises
to offer everything except the media side of FMS. I'm not caught up yet on
what's possible, but it looks like 80% of what I do with FCS/FMS currently
can be handled with FES. Now... of course... it's sort of impossible to map
out and promise a project with unreleased software--no less, software that
has no disclosed license plan either.
Thanks,
Phillip
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| |
| Phillip Kerman 2006-02-26, 5:45 pm |
| Sorry for these ideas coming once at a time... and, at the risk of reminding
people... it may be interested that the lack of DRM has not made it on
anyone's list (yet). (Of course my contention is that a DRM that is
half-baked can lead to a false sense of security and probably backfire--onto
Flash.)
Thanks,
Phillip
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| lti-1a8g-LMbKfuCQv7pBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.o 2006-02-26, 5:45 pm |
| Bill summed up quite clearly the problem to me. The personal edition was
already clearly limiting on the bandwith aspect. (And I don't even speak
about the developer edition.)
But it allowed us to develop, stress-test, and *sell* apps with small
number of participants involved, and to come up with arguments against
the "hey, proprietary code and technology is evil ! pricy technology is
evil !" usual kind of stuff.
You know, it's funny, I've just thought of that infamous video of Steve
Ballmer walking around a stage and stressing how "developers" were
important for Microsoft . ("Developers developers developers developers
developers [...]", google it if it does not ring a bell).
I would love to have one at MM saying for hours "small-sized companies
or education developers small-sized companies or education developers
small-sized companies or education developers"...
I know this reply doesn't include technical details, as you asked, but
the point is that I'm wondering if, at least on the FMS and Flex point
of view, MM has not decided that any customer/company not the size of
Akamai is not worth marketing for...
I mean, when you cross-examine several facts, you're really asking
yourself if MM still plan to have a large scale adoption of FMS and does
not restrict its marketing towards big players.
I knew for months that Convoq/ASAP somehow got their hands on a version
of the Breeze screensharing module.
I learned months ago that almost every aspect of the Speedera's
infrastructure was built by contracted MM employees.
I recently learned that several flash streaming services providers
"shared" the same 'main.asc'
The pattern I see in this really does not help preventing the appearance
of frown lines ...
Bill Sanders wrote:
> Hi Asa,
>
> 1. Big cost for little project: small/medium corp server application.
> One of my clients has a lot of training sessions where no more than 5
> people are involved--1 trainer and 4 trainees. It's an ongoing thing
> and they slap FCS on the company server and can handle 2 or 3
> simultaneous training sessions.
>
> 2. A specialized app with the main value being the ability to work
> on a problem in different locations. A task team, for example,
> working on an issue that needs just a little BW for the task. Lots of
> different tasks that go on a company or department's server.
>
> 3. This recently came as a surprise to me: Re-selling apps w/ FCS.
> One company is taking the apps that I thought I was building just for
> their company and re-selling them to other companies along with FCS
> Per edition.
>
> 4. Security applications. Nursing home with small server using FCS to
> monitor different locations. Using Per Edition, it was far less
> expensive than other systems, but with Pro Edition it would not be.
>
> The other day Steve used the analogy of a big ship turning--takes
> time for the good ship Adobe to change course. (Billy Gates turned
> Microsoft on a dime when it dawned on him the importance of the
> Internet.) I think that's the difference between having the small Per
> edition and the Pro Edition. If an application use comes up, a
> developer can put together an app for the Per edition quickly and
> economically. It takes less meetings to pony up $500 plus another
> $1000 for a small app. A bigger app and a bigger server takes more
> time and a lot more meetings $4,500 for the server and $10,000 for
> the app.
>
> Sort of like taking a cannon to rob a 7-11 when all you need is a .38.
>
> It's getting late for me and my analogies, and I've got to be ready
> by 7:30 am tomorrow for the Italian carnival over FMS!
> Bill
> On Feb 25, 2006, at 6:37 PM, Asa Whillock wrote:
>
>
> bill sanders | www.sandlight.com | bloomfield, ct | 860-242-2260
>
>
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| |
| Brian Lesser 2006-02-26, 5:45 pm |
| Hi Phillip,
Well, add these two together:
What Adobe says about LiveCycle:
"Use Adobe Document Services and Adobe LiveCycle software to automate=20
and streamline business processes that span systems, business rules, and=20
departments. Improve customer service and communications with customized=20
Intelligent Documents delivered via any channel. Collaborate with=20
business partners =97 whether they are inside or outside your organizatio=
n=20
=97 more effectively when documents bridge information with back-end=20
systems. And, add persistent security and authentication features to=20
control who can view and interact with documents, from creation to=20
delivery and beyond."
What the former Macromedia says about Breeze:
"Few organizations are untouched by the imperative to do business across=20
geographies. The faster and more effectively you can communicate across=20
distances, the more successful your organization will be=97whether your=20
goal is to reach more prospects, sell online, brief your team, deliver=20
courses, or ensure compliance."
So they are targeting the enterprise. Both tools provide some=20
opportunity for 3rd party developers to do integration work and to=20
extend the value of the platform via scripting. Custom Breeze pods are=20
an example. But I'm skeptical that all the cool stuff they cook up to=20
marry those products will find its way back to FMS in order to extend=20
the Flash platform...
Yours truly,
-Brian
Phillip Kerman wrote:
to[vbcol=seagreen]
>enhance
> =20
>
>product.
> =20
>
1399[vbcol=seagreen]
>
>I read stuff like that and I'm totally confused. Is this to say Adobe i=
s
>going to target end user business user types? For sure, you can't have =
your
>cake and eat it too. =20
>
>
>Thanks,
>Phillip
>
> ________________________________________
_______
>FlashComm-1Ss2GqJETD3yZ38Mhd3e/9ZfFG6BLHNm@public.gmane.org
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>
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>http://training.figleaf.com
> =20
>
--=20
________________________________________
______________________________
Brian Lesser
Assistant Director, Teaching and Technology Support
Computing and Communications Services
Ryerson University
350 Victoria St.
Toronto, Ontario Phone: (416) 979-5000 ext. 6835
M5B 2K3 Fax: (416) 979-5220
Office: AB48D E-mail: blesser-6s6ziW1YCwCw5LPnMra/2Q@public.gmane.org
(Enter through LB66) Web: http://www.ryerson.ca/~blesser
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| |
| Phillip Kerman 2006-02-26, 5:45 pm |
| A few ideas come to mind. First, I should really study the (frankly hidden)
world of breeze pods--but it's not like I have any opportunities there....
the premise is that my client already buys into Breeze. As great as Breeze
is, I don't see it as appropriate for every application. I mean, if the
"future" for the apparently huge demand for geographic agnostic applications
is Breeze with it's green tones and Flash V2 components... sorry, but that's
just too generic. I'm not saying custom pods don't offer anything but it
sure doesn't give me a big opportunity.
If given a choice between selling my client on the idea of buying breeze and
then giving me the remaining few cents in their budget to build a pod vs.
trying to build a customized solution that's a) cheaper than breeze and b)
more customized and c) less advanced (even less overkill).... I'd take the
customized solution if for no other reason than the fact I'll get 90%-100%
of the money.
Much of this comes back to "what is Adobe thinking?" I thought MM used to
be hard to read at times, but Adobe's even harder. Maybe I have unrealistic
expectations of transparency, but consider that many companies have very
clear objectives. I'm not sure, but in the case of FMS it seems that the
focus is only on video. That's fine, but tell us what you're thinking. As
much as I'm griping, we're really on the same side most of the time. Maybe
Adobe/MM doesn't even know where they're going--but if they do, please tell
me! The LifeCycle/Acrobat product line is terribly confusing. Can CTOs
make more sense of this stuff? My point is that it's a lot easier to both
buy into these products and sort of ride with them when it's clear where
they're going.
Thanks,
Phillip
> Hi Phillip,
> Well, add these two together:
>
> What Adobe says about LiveCycle:
>
> "Use Adobe Document Services and Adobe LiveCycle software to automate
> and streamline business processes that span systems, business rules, and
> departments. Improve customer service and communications with customized
> Intelligent Documents delivered via any channel. Collaborate with
> business partners - whether they are inside or outside your organization
> - more effectively when documents bridge information with back-end
> systems. And, add persistent security and authentication features to
> control who can view and interact with documents, from creation to
> delivery and beyond."
>
> What the former Macromedia says about Breeze:
>
> "Few organizations are untouched by the imperative to do business across
> geographies. The faster and more effectively you can communicate across
> distances, the more successful your organization will be-whether your
> goal is to reach more prospects, sell online, brief your team, deliver
> courses, or ensure compliance."
>
> So they are targeting the enterprise. Both tools provide some
> opportunity for 3rd party developers to do integration work and to
> extend the value of the platform via scripting. Custom Breeze pods are
> an example. But I'm skeptical that all the cool stuff they cook up to
> marry those products will find its way back to FMS in order to extend
> the Flash platform...
>
> Yours truly,
> -Brian
>
> Phillip Kerman wrote:
>
to[vbcol=seagreen]
your[vbcol=seagreen]
>
>
> --
> ________________________________________
__________________________
> ____
> Brian Lesser
> Assistant Director, Teaching and Technology Support
> Computing and Communications Services
> Ryerson University
> 350 Victoria St.
> Toronto, Ontario Phone: (416) 979-5000 ext. 6835
> M5B 2K3 Fax: (416) 979-5220
> Office: AB48D E-mail: blesser-6s6ziW1YCwCw5LPnMra/2Q@public.gmane.org
> (Enter through LB66) Web: http://www.ryerson.ca/~blesser
> ________________________________________
__________________________
> ____
>
> ________________________________________
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| |
| Dan Franc 2006-02-26, 5:45 pm |
|
Hi Asa,
Quoting Bill Sanders:
"It takes less meetings to pony up $500 plus another
$1000 for a small app. A bigger app and a bigger server takes more
time and a lot more meetings $4,500 for the server and $10,000 for
the app."
= My #1 reason to be losing FMS deals (I try hard not to say the words
"missing Personal Edition" you didn't want to hear ;))
We're a small shop developing small apps. Potentially MANY small apps, as
we had our very successful start with FCS last year, which came to a halt
with the new licencing.
Dan Franc
UNISONA Studio
www.unisona.com
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 268.1.0/269 - Release Date: 24.2.2006
>
--
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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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| Andreas Rønning 2006-02-26, 5:45 pm |
| Nothing that hasn't been said before:
1. Too pricey for small apps. I do LAN work mostly. I've developed 4 FCS
apps and none of them have ever needed more than than 20 users at any
time, but all of them have needed streamed audio/video in the flash
client, so not too many options for me is there. I'd have loved to see a
completely configurable license scheme, where you purchase a licence
that's priced *precisely* by your demands. I don't know if this is just
unrealisic or not, but at the very least it'd beat having the options of
"Thermonuclear Missile" and "Brick". There are just so many holes in the
licensing scheme as is, i'm confused as to wether Adobe knows what kind
of apps are actually being built with FCS/FMS.
2. The architecture isn't transparent at all. FCS does a list of things,
and not much more. Someone mentioned being given the ability to extend
the architecture with plugins, much like you'd extend php or such, and i
think it's a good idea. Recently a client wanted a solution where users
could dub their own soundtrack over a video stream, and then be able to
download what they did as an mpeg or avi file. With FCS today (to my
knowledge at least), as soon as an flv is recorded serverside, that's
where it ends up, period. So we opted for a Java client/server instead,
which was pricier to develop, and lost us the deal. Either way that deal
was broken, FCS too expensive and too limited, Java dev too expensive.
3. Unproven technology. Clients have a hard time trusting something that
sees so little use and which use seems so basic and limited. They trust
flash, but this fcs thing seems a little too pricey to make sense. This
is of course for data driven apps.
Why do i personally feel distrust for Adobe? Because i don't think they
understand a damn thing about the niche in which FCS really proved
itself to be rad to the max, which is in rapid development of
datacentric multiuser flash apps. When i first got into FCS, and started
working with video streams, i thought that bit was clunky and i never
really felt it was a safe bet that it'd do what i expected. But the
data-side is just solid, at least for the kind of apps i've done. The
ease of deployment was also gorgeous, where we could buy an xp home
license, a personal license, install FCS with the license and literally
have a fully functional solution within 10 minutes. Setting up the
server was never a problem at all. Now, having to buy a windows server
license (ouch) in addition to the horror of the currently priced FMS
(ouch) is enough to kill most deals for me.
As it is, even with the pro license and configurable schemes, it's still
a very very hard technology for me to dedicate more time to, and it's
heartbreaking. It's tougher to deploy, it's pricier, it doesn't really
offer that much new that i have any real use for, and Adobe feels
detached from its customers. Most of the changes i'd like to see are
almost guaranteed not to make it until FMS3 (if at all!), and thus FMS2
ends up looking like a fish out of water. It doesn't seem to have a real
point to it, and thus, we start looking for alternatives that realize
their place.
- Andreas
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| Brian Lesser 2006-02-26, 5:45 pm |
| Hi Phillip,
I think it depends on your market and interests. If your focus is system
customization and integration in the enterprise then something like a
LiveCycle + Breeze product may open some interesting possibilities. For
example if you can help a large company streamline a cumbersome business
process by extracting data from legacy apps, convert the data into
documents that represent a chunk of work, and improve their workflow
then I think you could make serious money. But if you want to sell
smaller scale custom applications then Breeze + PDF/LiveCycle or
whatever isn't going to help.
Re: what is Adobe thinking? Yeah, well.. the marketing stuff is pretty
painful isn't it? Sometimes I wonder if they know...
Cheers,
-Brian
Phillip Kerman wrote:
[vbcol=seagreen]
>A few ideas come to mind. First, I should really study the (frankly hidden)
>world of breeze pods--but it's not like I have any opportunities there....
>the premise is that my client already buys into Breeze. As great as Breeze
>is, I don't see it as appropriate for every application. I mean, if the
>"future" for the apparently huge demand for geographic agnostic applications
>is Breeze with it's green tones and Flash V2 components... sorry, but that's
>just too generic. I'm not saying custom pods don't offer anything but it
>sure doesn't give me a big opportunity.
>
>If given a choice between selling my client on the idea of buying breeze and
>then giving me the remaining few cents in their budget to build a pod vs.
>trying to build a customized solution that's a) cheaper than breeze and b)
>more customized and c) less advanced (even less overkill).... I'd take the
>customized solution if for no other reason than the fact I'll get 90%-100%
>of the money.
>
>Much of this comes back to "what is Adobe thinking?" I thought MM used to
>be hard to read at times, but Adobe's even harder. Maybe I have unrealistic
>expectations of transparency, but consider that many companies have very
>clear objectives. I'm not sure, but in the case of FMS it seems that the
>focus is only on video. That's fine, but tell us what you're thinking. As
>much as I'm griping, we're really on the same side most of the time. Maybe
>Adobe/MM doesn't even know where they're going--but if they do, please tell
>me! The LifeCycle/Acrobat product line is terribly confusing. Can CTOs
>make more sense of this stuff? My point is that it's a lot easier to both
>buy into these products and sort of ride with them when it's clear where
>they're going.
>
>Thanks,
>Phillip
>
>
>
>
>
>to
>
>
>your
>
>
--
________________________________________
______________________________
Brian Lesser
Assistant Director, Teaching and Technology Support
Computing and Communications Services
Ryerson University
350 Victoria St.
Toronto, Ontario Phone: (416) 979-5000 ext. 6835
M5B 2K3 Fax: (416) 979-5220
Office: AB48D E-mail: blesser-6s6ziW1YCwCw5LPnMra/2Q@public.gmane.org
(Enter through LB66) Web: http://www.ryerson.ca/~blesser
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| |
| Phillip Kerman 2006-02-26, 5:46 pm |
| So Brian I think you're saying that I can make money integrating a big
Breeze application for a client. The problem there is tha,t first-off, I
don't really feel like being a sales person--at least not for something I
don't make any money on. I suppose I could be a VAR but haven't even looked
into that. Secondly, it's hard because if I invest time to sell them on
Breeze (or whatever) then they'll have to save some pennies for me to
customize it... the thing is I haven't studied how--but I know FCS alright.
After dropping 200K (or whatever) for Breeze that leaves less for me. I
mean, if I can do something that's nearly as good for, say 150K, and it's
all mine. It might even be a better deal for the client because they'll
have something customized.
Anyway, I'm okay with the idea that I could make pods or whatever for
Breeze. But it's not like there's a huge industry for that right now. I
think in order for there to be a place for developers the pod API and other
options need to be even more adaptable... more customizable.
What has come up more than once is that a Macromedia sales rep wants to meet
my potential client to "help" get them into Breeze... then, according to the
theory, I come in to develop the customized pods or whatever. I have a hard
buying into this theory.
Regarding what Adobe is thinking... well, Macromedia got better and better
over the years communicating where they were headed. But it's still unclear
compared to many other companies, like: Apple (iTunes)... Real (Rhapsody--or
maybe bugging MS). Some aren't so clear: Google and Yahoo for example.
I read that interview with Bruce Chizen and I don't really know. Are they
targeting the "enterprise"? Are they trying to sell tools? He did say
they're not really targeting the end user except to deliver free clients.
It seems pretty obviously, though, for certain devices Adobe's sold on the
idea of charging for the client. Still, I don't know where they're headed
and I don't think it's possible to target everything the way it sounds from
that interview.
Thanks,
Phillip
> Hi Phillip,
> I think it depends on your market and interests. If your focus is system
> customization and integration in the enterprise then something like a
> LiveCycle + Breeze product may open some interesting possibilities. For
> example if you can help a large company streamline a cumbersome business
> process by extracting data from legacy apps, convert the data into
> documents that represent a chunk of work, and improve their workflow
> then I think you could make serious money. But if you want to sell
> smaller scale custom applications then Breeze + PDF/LiveCycle or
> whatever isn't going to help.
> Re: what is Adobe thinking? Yeah, well.. the marketing stuff is pretty
> painful isn't it? Sometimes I wonder if they know...
> Cheers,
> -Brian
>
> Phillip Kerman wrote:
>
hidden)[vbcol=seagreen]
there....[vbcol=seagreen]
Breeze[vbcol=seagreen]
applications[vbcol=seagreen]
that's[vbcol=seagreen]
and[vbcol=seagreen]
b)[vbcol=seagreen]
the[vbcol=seagreen]
90%-100%[vbcol=seagreen]
to[vbcol=seagreen]
unrealistic[vbcol=seagreen]
As[vbcol=seagreen]
Maybe[vbcol=seagreen]
tell[vbcol=seagreen]
both[vbcol=seagreen]
communication[vbcol=seagreen]
http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/...Article&id=1399[vbcol=seagreen]
is[vbcol=seagreen]
>
>
> --
> ________________________________________
__________________________
> ____
> Brian Lesser
> Assistant Director, Teaching and Technology Support
> Computing and Communications Services
> Ryerson University
> 350 Victoria St.
> Toronto, Ontario Phone: (416) 979-5000 ext. 6835
> M5B 2K3 Fax: (416) 979-5220
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| |
| Stefan Richter 2006-02-26, 5:46 pm |
|
I currently have 2 apps on the shelf for my employer that use FMS. One is a
complex live support app for which I had to build my own failover and
clustering system in order to make it scale. While the app appears to work
well I do not feel confident in the system - call me paranoid. I wish this
stuff came built in as I am probably not the best person to develop complex
systems like that - I am a Flash Developer after all.
I am holding back on pushing this product and instead market our progressive
download based apps which generate a lot of interest and revenue right now.
Those are traditional Flash apps with some Flash video (no streaming).
With FMS I feel 'scared' about scalability and licensing costs and as a
result market our other Flash apps more heavily.
The other app is a Breeze Light clone (hands up who hasn't built one of
those with FCS/FMS yet) and it also works pretty well. But due to the fact
that this app cannot support screen- and application sharing we have not
been able to sign up as many clients as we may have done otherwise. If
Breeze wasn't out there or if the playing field was level how would this
affect our business? My guess is that it would be affected in a positive
way...
Bottom line: I cannot compete with Breeze when building Flash based apps.
This is a decision that Adobe made for me.
FES is on the horizon and while Flex2 is obviously a great addition for the
platform it appears that FES has a mini-FMS built in and makes data centric
apps a lot easier to build - so some of the problems that I currently solve
with FMS will be solvable with FES. Good thing or not? You tell me.
But what business is left for FMS to pick up when audio and video is done
via Breeze and data centric apps via FES?
That's why I - whenever I can - use progressive download video, simply to
stay well clear of any nasty surprises. Yet I still love FMS and if Adobe
convinces me that there is a case for it then I will stick with it. But that
case must be more than simply streaming video.
I have plenty of ideas for FMS based apps and I know I could (and have done)
build a business around those ideas. Right now however such a business would
be too risky.
Stefan
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| |
| Beto A 2006-02-26, 5:46 pm |
| Asa,
It seems like a merry go round and I almost feel like ctrl c ctrl v older=
emails to just keep it going. Deals I have been exposed to that where l=
ost in the past,FCS, where mainly due to lack of Screen/ App sharing.
Today with FMS its lack of the personal edition compounded w/ the above(S=
/A Sharing).
give us those two things and then we may see a light at the end of the tu=
nnel.
-Beto
lti-1a8g-LMbKfuCQv7pBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org wrote: Bill summed up quite clearly the problem to m=
e. The personal edition was=20
already clearly limiting on the bandwith aspect. (And I don't even speak=20
about the developer edition.)
But it allowed us to develop, stress-test, and *sell* apps with small=20
number of participants involved, and to come up with arguments against=20
the "hey, proprietary code and technology is evil ! pricy technology is=20
evil !" usual kind of stuff.
You know, it's funny, I've just thought of that infamous video of Steve=20
Ballmer walking around a stage and stressing how "developers" were=20
important for Microsoft . ("Developers developers developers developers=20
developers [...]", google it if it does not ring a bell).
I would love to have one at MM saying for hours "small-sized companies=20
or education developers small-sized companies or education developers=20
small-sized companies or education developers"...
I know this reply doesn't include technical details, as you asked, but=20
the point is that I'm wondering if, at least on the FMS and Flex point=20
of view, MM has not decided that any customer/company not the size of=20
Akamai is not worth marketing for...
I mean, when you cross-examine several facts, you're really asking=20
yourself if MM still plan to have a large scale adoption of FMS and does=20
not restrict its marketing towards big players.
I knew for months that Convoq/ASAP somehow got their hands on a version=20
of the Breeze screensharing module.
I learned months ago that almost every aspect of the Speedera's=20
infrastructure was built by contracted MM employees.
I recently learned that several flash streaming services providers=20
"shared" the same 'main.asc'
The pattern I see in this really does not help preventing the appearance=20
of frown lines ...
Bill Sanders wrote:
> Hi Asa,
>
> 1. Big cost for little project: small/medium corp server application. =20
> One of my clients has a lot of training sessions where no more than 5 =20
> people are involved--1 trainer and 4 trainees. It's an ongoing thing =20
> and they slap FCS on the company server and can handle 2 or 3 =20
> simultaneous training sessions.
>
> 2. A specialized app with the main value being the ability to work =20
> on a problem in different locations. A task team, for example, =20
> working on an issue that needs just a little BW for the task. Lots of =20
> different tasks that go on a company or department's server.
>
> 3. This recently came as a surprise to me: Re-selling apps w/ FCS. =20
> One company is taking the apps that I thought I was building just for =20
> their company and re-selling them to other companies along with FCS =20
> Per edition.
>
> 4. Security applications. Nursing home with small server using FCS to =20
> monitor different locations. Using Per Edition, it was far less =20
> expensive than other systems, but with Pro Edition it would not be.
>
> The other day Steve used the analogy of a big ship turning--takes =20
> time for the good ship Adobe to change course. (Billy Gates turned =20
> Microsoft on a dime when it dawned on him the importance of the =20
> Internet.) I think that's the difference between having the small Per =20
> edition and the Pro Edition. If an application use comes up, a =20
> developer can put together an app for the Per edition quickly and =20
> economically. It takes less meetings to pony up $500 plus another =20
> $1000 for a small app. A bigger app and a bigger server takes more =20
> time and a lot more meetings $4,500 for the server and $10,000 for =20
> the app.
>
> Sort of like taking a cannon to rob a 7-11 when all you need is a .38.
>
> It's getting late for me and my analogies, and I've got to be ready =20
> by 7:30 am tomorrow for the Italian carnival over FMS!
> Bill
> On Feb 25, 2006, at 6:37 PM, Asa Whillock wrote:
>
of[vbcol=seagreen]
ou[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> bill sanders | www.sandlight.com | bloomfield, ct | 860-242-2260
>
>
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=09
---------------------------------
Relax. Yahoo! Mail virus scanning helps detect nasty viruses!
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| |
| Brian Lesser 2006-02-26, 5:46 pm |
| Hi Phillip,
Well, actually I see it as something a large system integrator or
consultancy might need as part of a larger project. Personally, I'd see
it more as a subcontract on a larger job and not something I'd go
searching for on my own.
Yours truly,
-Brian
Phillip Kerman wrote:
>So Brian I think you're saying that I can make money integrating a big
>Breeze application for a client. The problem there is tha,t first-off, I
>don't really feel like being a sales person--at least not for something I
>don't make any money on.
>
--
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Computing and Communications Services
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| |
|
| Hi Asa,
Last year I lost an opportunity to develop real-time collaborative
applications with a small group within government, using Flash and
FlashComm, because of the lack of screen sharing. Licensing of Flashcomm
for their international partners also became an issue, even though my
client does own a $4500 license for Flashcom (their collaboration
structure needs to be decentralized).
VNC could be used and developed as open-source software for screen
sharing, which requires a different development strategy. Knowing that
this capability is built into the Flash player but inaccessible to my
software is troublesome and means extra explanation to my clients as to
why two streams of development are needed for that functionality, not to
mention that it's inaccesible due to marketing choices at Macromedia.
From my client's point of view it seems, this history supports their
belief that proprietary tools such as Flash will become roadblocks to
the custom development of their software tools in the long term.
I bought into the Flash MX2004 Pro platform to develop more
sophisticated applications with designer-friendly tools, then MM chose
to develop Breeze as a competing product. This meant having to choose to
explain that a more expensive tool (income for MM/Adobe and not for my
company) would provide the extra single function they needed. Breeze, by
the way, is more expensive than their current collaboration subscription
service, and it's been written on the list that Flashcom is a more
expensive solution for video streaming than Quicktime or Real (I prefer
Quicktime, as a less invasive install for the end user).
Now it appears Adobe's emphasis is on enterprise-level systems, and I
have the impression they will constrain support for Flash as a
developer's tool and support another package as a developer's tool. I
also percieve that MM diversified their application base to become more
attractive to Adobe, which as described is at odds with my needs.
Without a change in providing Breeze's screen-sharing to Flash, and
support for Flash as a developer tool, I now think it's unwise for me to
recommend MM/Adobe products to a client. and would think twice about
suggesting Breeze, both because I have less trust in Adobe's plans for
its long-term viability, and because I agree with the viewpoint that
MM/Adobe seemingly would rather my role be a salesperson for Breeze, and
not a developer creating custom solutions using Flash. My options then
become rapid protoyping with my existing Flash toolset and developer
edition of FlashCom 1.5, and working outside my knowledge toolset with a
java expert and third-party socket servers to produce the collaborative
tools my client require.
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| |
| Kenn Mayfield 2006-02-26, 5:46 pm |
| Just adding an adjustment to my email to provide my name properly to the
list.
Cheers,
Kenn
Ken wrote:
> Hi Asa,
>
> Last year I lost an opportunity to develop real-time collaborative
> applications with a small group within government, using Flash and
> FlashComm, because of the lack of screen sharing. Licensing of
> Flashcomm for their international partners also became an issue, even
> though my client does own a $4500 license for Flashcom (their
> collaboration structure needs to be decentralized).
> VNC could be used and developed as open-source software for screen
> sharing, which requires a different development strategy. Knowing that
> this capability is built into the Flash player but inaccessible to my
> software is troublesome and means extra explanation to my clients as
> to why two streams of development are needed for that functionality,
> not to mention that it's inaccesible due to marketing choices at
> Macromedia. From my client's point of view it seems, this history
> supports their belief that proprietary tools such as Flash will become
> roadblocks to the custom development of their software tools in the
> long term.
>
> I bought into the Flash MX2004 Pro platform to develop more
> sophisticated applications with designer-friendly tools, then MM chose
> to develop Breeze as a competing product. This meant having to choose
> to explain that a more expensive tool (income for MM/Adobe and not for
> my company) would provide the extra single function they needed.
> Breeze, by the way, is more expensive than their current collaboration
> subscription service, and it's been written on the list that Flashcom
> is a more expensive solution for video streaming than Quicktime or
> Real (I prefer Quicktime, as a less invasive install for the end user).
> Now it appears Adobe's emphasis is on enterprise-level systems, and I
> have the impression they will constrain support for Flash as a
> developer's tool and support another package as a developer's tool. I
> also percieve that MM diversified their application base to become
> more attractive to Adobe, which as described is at odds with my needs.
>
> Without a change in providing Breeze's screen-sharing to Flash, and
> support for Flash as a developer tool, I now think it's unwise for me
> to recommend MM/Adobe products to a client. and would think twice
> about suggesting Breeze, both because I have less trust in Adobe's
> plans for its long-term viability, and because I agree with the
> viewpoint that MM/Adobe seemingly would rather my role be a
> salesperson for Breeze, and not a developer creating custom solutions
> using Flash. My options then become rapid protoyping with my existing
> Flash toolset and developer edition of FlashCom 1.5, and working
> outside my knowledge toolset with a Java expert and third-party socket
> servers to produce the collaborative tools my client require.
> ________________________________________
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| |
|
|
I think I'll put in another two cents on this subject (that's a
total of four cents now). I'm a Flash Developer for an educational
non-profit organization. We recently bought the license for the Pro
edition of FMS2, which we were able to get at the absolute last 15
minutes before Adobe nixed the non-profit/educational pricing for
FMS2 (big bummer there). Because we had already decided to go with
Flash as our video streaming service due to the widespread use of the
Flash Player we hurried to get the $1000 off the $4500 for the
non-profit license. My worries were then what they are now and as a
small educational developer I'm really hoping that I haven't made a
mistake in pushing for the purchase of the FMS2 package. It's
already been said, but I'll say it again to emphasize the
argument. If we just assume that streaming video and related app
development is the basic focus for the FMS, (and not necessarily the
more advanced development and app building which seems to be the
desire and frustration for many developers out there), then obviously
it's just too pricey. The licensing is out of proportion with the
stage of development of the software itself. Flash had very humble
beginnings, when it was bought by Macromedia and over the course of a
decade turned into what it is today with the hugely successful
adoption of the Flash Player. Adobe should not ignore the very real
fact that Flash is so successful not only because of the people who
created it, but also because of the people who use it and develop
with it. Why are open sourced technologies so popular (Linux, PHP,
Apache, mysql etc.)? Because they are available to the creativity
and inspiration of ANYONE who wants to get involved. If you limit
the number of people who can (and indeed would otherwise be very
willing) to use your product, you limit just how much the product can
be developed and extended to the usage of millions (millions!) of
people. This is not suggesting that FMS become an Open Source thing,
or that proprietary technology is evil which it isn't (people should
be duly reciprocated for their work), but the model is there. The
example is as clear as day to anyone with eyes to see. To make your
product popular, make it available. Invite people to develop for it
with the licensing options for which they'll be willing to take a
risk and sacrifice their time and energy and with the licensing
standards that are becoming typical out there, and not only that, do
them better by undercutting the competition (for lack of a better
example, look at what Wal-Mart is doing). Flash has a huge advantage
over Windows Media, Quick Time and Real Media right now, it would be
a shame to see this advantage lost because no one wants to help get
FMS off the ground because of cost issues and bandwidth limitations
in something as easily moldable as a license. I personally want to
see FMS make a big impact in the market because of what it could do
to reach new heights of intercommunication between the peoples of
this planet, and I'm putting my butt on the line for this product
right now, but it could be a flop if not enough potential programmers
and creative people are given the chance to use it.
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| |
| Phillip Kerman 2006-02-26, 5:46 pm |
| I'm curious whether a lot of the issues revolving around price and bandwidth
aren't resolved with the service providers. If not, why? That is, I'd
think they could offer something between the old personal license and the
$4500 minimum. (Also, what's up with the educational pricing? That doesn't
sound good.)
Thanks,
Phillip
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| |
| lti-1a8g-LMbKfuCQv7pBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.o 2006-02-26, 8:45 pm |
| It doesn't answer the cases of a deployment of a FCS/FMS on the LAN of a
company ...
Phillip Kerman wrote:
>I'm curious whether a lot of the issues revolving around price and bandwidth
>aren't resolved with the service providers. If not, why? That is, I'd
>think they could offer something between the old personal license and the
>$4500 minimum. (Also, what's up with the educational pricing? That doesn't
>sound good.)
>
>Thanks,
>Phillip
>
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| |
|
| > I'm curious whether a lot of the issues revolving around price and
> bandwidth
> aren't resolved with the service providers. If not, why? That is, I'd
> think they could offer something between the old personal license and the
> $4500 minimum. (Also, what's up with the educational pricing? That
> doesn't
> sound good.)
>
Why would any company want to outsource that server when they already
have people on staff prepared to manage it, bandwidth to support it, and
they want complete control over it?
ryanm
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| |
| Kevin Day 2006-02-27, 2:45 am |
|
On Feb 26, 2006, at 5:38 PM, Phillip Kerman wrote:
> I'm curious whether a lot of the issues revolving around price and
> bandwidth
> aren't resolved with the service providers. If not, why? That is,
> I'd
> think they could offer something between the old personal license
> and the
> $4500 minimum. (Also, what's up with the educational pricing?
> That doesn't
> sound good.)
>
> Thanks,
> Phillip
If the use is all internal (corporate LAN use) you're paying for
bandwidth twice (one for your own internet connection going to the
service provider, and then paying the service provider for their
bandwidth). it also took what was a one-time purchase expense and
turned it into a recurring monthly expense.
Also, for companies like ours that does all of our hosting and IT
internally... We already have the infrastructure to support something
like this internally. We didn't buy a router the size of a
refrigerator and racks of servers just to outsource our bandwidth.
The service providers do provide a valuable product to people, but it
doesn't fit what a lot of situations. A one time charge for a
license, and installing it on a colo'ed box you're already paying for
is easier to swallow than another monthly charge, that's probably
charging you more per megabit that you already are paying in hosting.
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| |
| Bill Sanders 2006-02-27, 7:45 am |
| Kevin,
That's an excellent point.
Bill
On Feb 27, 2006, at 12:09 AM, Kevin Day wrote:
> it also took what was a one-time purchase expense and turned it
> into a recurring monthly expense.
bill sanders | www.sandlight.com | bloomfield, ct | 860-242-2260
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| |
| Dario De Agostini 2006-02-27, 5:45 pm |
| Asa Whillock wrote:
> What I'm interested in now is - why do you lose deals with FMS? I
> realize it's not the most pleasant topic in the world, but it's
> important. Believe it or not,
well ... it's weird to see this kind of question since it's "years" that
we "all" complain about the same 2 or 3 things
we lost projects due to:
many projects:
1) price. FMS applications are too expensive. License is too high.
Development cost is too high.
most projects:
2) lack of echo cancellation
some project (but important):
3) lack of screensharing (which we had to develop on our own)
few projects:
4) ability to integrate with other solutions/formats
5) ability to use UDP and multicasting
Dario De Agostini
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| |
| Woody Chastain 2006-02-27, 5:45 pm |
| Asa,
I'd like to share some info re: Personal Edition with you offlist. Please
send me your email.
Thanks,
Woody
-----Original Message-----
From: flashcomm-bounces-1Ss2GqJETD3yZ38Mhd3e/9ZfFG6BLHNm@public.gmane.org
[mailto:flashcomm-bounces-1Ss2GqJETD3yZ38Mhd3e/9ZfFG6BLHNm@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Asa Whillock
Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2006 5:37 PM
To: FlashComm Mailing List
Subject: [FlashComm] Feedback Forum: I lost my deal because . . .
Hey all,
I'm looking for more of the continued great feedback that we've been
getting from you guys. One of the things that's very clear here is that
many of you are application resellers, pitch men, rogue contractors,
ninjas, flash masters, and what not. In other words, you're not
necessarily the one who writes the cheque for FMS, but you build the app
and demo it to customers who will.
What I'm interested in now is - why do you lose deals with FMS? I
realize it's not the most pleasant topic in the world, but it's
important. Believe it or not, I'm very interested in the "Your
Licensing Sucks" discussions and "Where's my Personal Edition" because
it tells everyone here at Adobe what you need. Now I'm more oriented
around the tech elements, so I'm a better receptacle for "I need one of
these and you don't have it!" The point being, occasionally y'all are
going to pitch FMS and it doesn't take - I'm interested in why. If you
can, please tell the story behind it because it might be very valuable
for the community as we're all rooting for the success of FMS here.
Asa
-----Original Message-----
From: flashcomm-bounces-1Ss2GqJETD3yZ38Mhd3e/9ZfFG6BLHNm@public.gmane.org
[mailto:flashcomm-bounces-1Ss2GqJETD3yZ38Mhd3e/9ZfFG6BLHNm@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Graeme
Bull
Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2006 10:41 AM
To: 'FlashComm Mailing List'
Subject: RE: [FlashComm] SetInterval : bugs ?
haha, that is funny. I didn't even come close to catching that one.
it's just far too early on this saturday morning for me to keep up. I
shall
bow out gracefully.
G
-----Original Message-----
From: flashcomm-bounces-1Ss2GqJETD3yZ38Mhd3e/9ZfFG6BLHNm@public.gmane.org
[mailto:flashcomm-bounces-1Ss2GqJETD3yZ38Mhd3e/9ZfFG6BLHNm@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of
lti-1a8g-LMbKfuCQv7pBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2006 4:03 AM
To: FlashComm Mailing List
Subject: Re: [FlashComm] SetInterval : bugs ?
<OT> Hmm looks like I'd better stick to IT rather than to force upon my
comedic talents and start a second career :/
> MM has always been *very* prompt to fix bugs in its products -
> including localized versions - /_*up to this date*_/,
>
> Sincerely yours,
> lti-1a8g, /_*25th February 1996.*_/
</OT>
Regards,
lti-1a8g, Ministry of Silly Walks.
Graeme Bull wrote:
>Yes.. you're right.. their updates have been "real-time"ly... hahaha
>
>I made a funny :D
>
>Sorry you feel I'm excessively negative. I don't think that about a
>year or so from the original release of FCS1.5 to release an update is
>so timely, but perhaps you and I have a different perspective on that.
>I can respect that.
>
>This is far far OT though, sorry for the flak everybody.
>
>To summarize though to bring things back to the topic at hand, the
>setInterval bug was fixed in the "Update 2" for FCS1.5 and has yet to
>show it's ugly head in FMS2 or FMS2.0.1.
>
>A simple example too just to prove it:
>
>application.onAppStart = function(){
> trace("application has started");
> this.myInt = setInterval(giveMeSomeSkinBaby, 1000); }
>
>function giveMeSomeSkinBaby(){
> trace("here you go sugar daddy");
>}
>
>Cordially yours,
>Graeme, 3rd April 1823
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: flashcomm-bounces-1Ss2GqJETD3yZ38Mhd3e/9ZfFG6BLHNm@public.gmane.org
>[mailto:flashcomm-bounces-1Ss2GqJETD3yZ38Mhd3e/9ZfFG6BLHNm@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of
>lti-1a8g-LMbKfuCQv7pBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org
>Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2006 2:07 AM
>To: FlashComm Mailing List
>Subject: Re: [FlashComm] SetInterval : bugs ?
>
>Sir, I find your attitude excessively negative.
>MM has always been *very* prompt to fix bugs in its products -
>including localized versions - up to this date,
>
>Sincerely yours,
>lti-1a8g, 25th February 1996.
>
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