Macromedia Flash Server - Recording multiple simultanious streams (conference)

Author

Recording multiple simultanious streams (conference)

lists-2eRClUtwfwv10XsdtD+oqA@public.gmane.org

2006-06-27, 1:11 pm

Hi all,

I'm developing a system which is (essentially) a multi-user conference. At any
point one person or multiple people can be streaming audio and one person can
be streaming video. These are seen/heard by everybody.

The problem: I have assured people that this can be recorded and now I am
getting worried that it cannot. I can record the current video stream and one
audio stream, but I have no idea how to deal with extra audio popping in at
random intervals. There is not even one main stream that continues for the
length of the whole recording which could serve as the 'timeline'.

From checking the archives & goolge etc I gather that:

1) I cannot combine audio streams into one stream/recording.
2) Synchronising streams when playing them back will be tricky.

I need urgently need some ideas. I cannot imagine that recording has never been
done like this before!?

Thanks as always,

Kev

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Jake Hilton

2006-06-27, 1:11 pm

Hate to tell you this.. but there is no way to combine the streams
serverside.. you can daisy chain them, one after the other, but no way to
combine them.

Jake

On 6/27/06, lists-2eRClUtwfwv10XsdtD+oqA@public.gmane.org <lists-2eRClUtwfwv10XsdtD+oqA@public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I'm developing a system which is (essentially) a multi-user conference. At
> any
> point one person or multiple people can be streaming audio and one person
> can
> be streaming video. These are seen/heard by everybody.
>
> The problem: I have assured people that this can be recorded and now I am
> getting worried that it cannot. I can record the current video stream and
> one
> audio stream, but I have no idea how to deal with extra audio popping in
> at
> random intervals. There is not even one main stream that continues for the
> length of the whole recording which could serve as the 'timeline'.
>
> From checking the archives & goolge etc I gather that:
>
> 1) I cannot combine audio streams into one stream/recording.
> 2) Synchronising streams when playing them back will be tricky.
>
> I need urgently need some ideas. I cannot imagine that recording has never
> been
> done like this before!?
>
> Thanks as always,
>
> Kev
>
> ________________________________________
_______
> FlashComm-1Ss2GqJETD3yZ38Mhd3e/9ZfFG6BLHNm@public.gmane.org
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>
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> http://www.figleaf.com
> http://training.figleaf.com
>
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Jayson K Hanes

2006-06-27, 1:11 pm

If needed, you can create a client for your own use -- that has
everything going on that you want to record. Then use camtasia
(techsmith.com) or similar to record everything in real time down to one
AVI file.. that you can then convert into an flv for playback as one
combined stream. This of course would be a manual process for someone
monitoring the event/conference -- and require time to reprocess to flv
and to upload back to a server.

Maybe that'll work for you?

Otherwise.. although you can't combine streams -- why would you really
need to? Just record each stream serverside.. by way of a script that
notes (into a database) the time at which the broadcast was initiated
for each stream (and perhaps their position/seat on the client side)..
then you cue all the streams up based on that and their positions to the
client.. (perhaps a custom client for this purpose)..

-Jayson

> -----Original Message-----
> From: flashcomm-bounces-1Ss2GqJETD3yZ38Mhd3e/9ZfFG6BLHNm@public.gmane.org [mailto:flashcomm-
> bounces-1Ss2GqJETD3yZ38Mhd3e/9ZfFG6BLHNm@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Jake Hilton
> Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 11:57 AM
> To: FlashComm Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [FlashComm] Recording multiple simultanious streams
> (conference)
>=20
> Hate to tell you this.. but there is no way to combine the streams
> serverside.. you can daisy chain them, one after the other, but no way
to[vbcol=seagreen]
> combine them.
>=20
> Jake
>=20
> On 6/27/06, lists-2eRClUtwfwv10XsdtD+oqA@public.gmane.org <lists-2eRClUtwfwv10XsdtD+oqA@public.gmane.org> wrote:
conference.[vbcol=seagreen]
> At
> person
I[vbcol=seagreen]
> am
stream[vbcol=seagreen]
> and
popping in[vbcol=seagreen]
for[vbcol=seagreen]
> the
> never
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Xiaolei Shi

2006-06-27, 1:11 pm

Have you tried to add in a start timer and persistent shared object during
onAppStart ?

Everytime the a random audio chimes in the persistent shared object pushes
in time (from timer) and some extra user information.

Then all you have to do is write a little app that plays the main video with
the audio and attach an event firing mechanism for the rest of the audio.

I'm doing something similar except I'm trying to synchronize various other
shared objects including whiteboard events/chat and a slew of other things
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Geoffrey Nicholas

2006-06-28, 1:11 am

Jayson's on to something here...

Let me just add: perhaps not using "database", but instead use a
NetStream that stores only data. In your ns.send() calls you could
indicate the name of the stream to playback. This data-only NetStream
thereby becomes your timeline... how perfectly simple!!

Cheers,
Geoffrey

>
> Otherwise.. although you can't combine streams -- why would you really
> need to? Just record each stream serverside.. by way of a script that
> notes (into a database) the time at which the broadcast was initiated
> for each stream (and perhaps their position/seat on the client side)..
> then you cue all the streams up based on that and their positions to th=
e
> client.. (perhaps a custom client for this purpose)..
>
> -Jayson
>
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hank williams

2006-06-28, 1:11 am

Actually, as far as I know, jason isnt onto something, tho I wish he were.
And I must say it is amazing to me that you cant do it. It is indeed
something that should be there. It makes no sense that you can have a live
multiperson conference but you cant record it.

But AFAIK there is *no* way to synchronize streams that have been recorded.
This has been of personal interest to me since I started using FCS. No
matter what you do, if you play back two streams, even if you start them at
the same time they *will* get out of sync. There's nothing you can do.

I have actually been thinking this could get fixed over in the red5 project
by treating recorded streams as live streams, because live streams cant get
out of sync. Well I shouldnt say they cant, but they dont. Thats why live
conversation works across FMS. Because the live streaming engine throws away
frames to keep up with the live events. To me this is a simple fix that I
cant believe they didnt make, except that video was *far* more important
than collaboration.

Regard
Hank

On 6/27/06, Geoffrey Nicholas <gnic-Hlp6NBfSoRe8rHFcjEY/OA@public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
> Jayson's on to something here...
>
> Let me just add: perhaps not using "database", but instead use a
> NetStream that stores only data. In your ns.send() calls you could
> indicate the name of the stream to playback. This data-only NetStream
> thereby becomes your timeline... how perfectly simple!!
>
> Cheers,
> Geoffrey
>
> ________________________________________
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Cliff Rowley

2006-06-28, 1:11 am

> To me this is a simple fix that I
> cant believe they didnt make, except that video was *far* more important
> than collaboration.

Call me skeptical, but it wouldn't be the first time. Am I right in
thinking Breeze can do this? Just like Breeze can use the screen share
codec and regular Flash can't? OK, I am skeptical.. Of course MM would
never deprive us of features to safeguard their own products ;-)

*tongue firmly in cheek*
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lists-2eRClUtwfwv10XsdtD+oqA@public.gmane.org

2006-06-28, 7:11 am

Hi Hank,

Have you actually managed to achieve what you described? Is there a way to
treat recorded streams as live, or is this what FMS should do but doesn't?

The impression that I am getting is that this is an unsolvable
situation, which
puts me in a awkward position :S. For my purposes the streams cannot really go
out of sync, it would be too messy.

Cheers

Kev

Quoting hank williams <hank777-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>:

> Actually, as far as I know, jason isnt onto something, tho I wish he were.
> And I must say it is amazing to me that you cant do it. It is indeed
> something that should be there. It makes no sense that you can have a live
> multiperson conference but you cant record it.
>
> But AFAIK there is *no* way to synchronize streams that have been recorded.
> This has been of personal interest to me since I started using FCS. No
> matter what you do, if you play back two streams, even if you start them at
> the same time they *will* get out of sync. There's nothing you can do.
>
> I have actually been thinking this could get fixed over in the red5 project
> by treating recorded streams as live streams, because live streams cant get
> out of sync. Well I shouldnt say they cant, but they dont. Thats why live
> conversation works across FMS. Because the live streaming engine throws away
> frames to keep up with the live events. To me this is a simple fix that I
> cant believe they didnt make, except that video was *far* more important
> than collaboration.
>
> Regard
> Hank
>
> On 6/27/06, Geoffrey Nicholas <gnic-Hlp6NBfSoRe8rHFcjEY/OA@public.gmane.org> wrote:
> ________________________________________
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hank williams

2006-06-28, 1:12 pm

Hi kev,

Sorry that I was unclear. I hate to confirm this, but It is indeed an
unsolvable problem with FMS. They would need to change the code.

The only possibility is to lobby the red5 guys to make their code treat
certain groups of streams as live. Red5 is an Open Source flash streaming
server.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news

Xiaolei Shi

2006-06-28, 1:12 pm

Hank,

I'm sorry, but to say that something is impossible is a very strong
statement. I ran into this problem about a year ago and I too reached the
conclusion that it was impossible. However, it was nonetheless a fairly airy
conclusion based on a few test runs.

I had originally thought that the error builds up until both the clips are
out of sync (noticable at a human level) with one another and that simple
error correction by the application would stifle the error built up and
become noticable. At that time I did not have the time to tackle such a
plan.
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David Clark

2006-06-28, 1:12 pm

Breeze recorded streams go out of sync too - at least in the few breezos
that I have watched after the fact. By the end of a one hour presentation
the presenter audio was behind the rest of the presentation by 20 or 30
seconds.

Would it not be possible to record one NetStream as a timeline using
ns.sendto make 'cue points' to start and stop other audio streams.
Then during
playback you use the position of the timeline NetStream as the canonical
'current time' and have other streams perform a seek or a pause at certain
intervals to keep themselves synced up with the timeline stream?

That way during playback if the timeline stream slips behind (not really
possible, it is not transferring much data) then all the others pause for a
bit, and if one other stream gets behind (likely for a video stream) then it
seeks ahead just a little to catch up (would glitch, but that is exactly
what you get in a live stream - missed frames).

Just a thought.

--
david

"Many people die at twenty five and aren't buried until they are seventy
five".
- Benjamin Franklin
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hank williams

2006-06-28, 1:12 pm

On 6/28/06, Xiaolei Shi <7thguardian-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
> Hank,
>
> I'm sorry, but to say that something is impossible is a very strong
> statement. I ran into this problem about a year ago and I too reached the
> conclusion that it was impossible. However, it was nonetheless a fairly
> airy
> conclusion based on a few test runs.

Well, if you dont like the word "impossible" let me put it this way. I have
been chatting with other expert flascommers about *this topic* for a few
years on this list (check the archives). No one on this list has succeeded
in implementing anything that would provide synchronization, despite a very
high level of interest in achieving the goal.

So perhaps its just that no one is smart enough or determined enough. You be
the judge.

Regards
Hank

I had originally thought that the error builds up until both the clips are
> out of sync (noticable at a human level) with one another and that simple
> error correction by the application would stifle the error built up and
> become noticable. At that time I did not have the time to tackle such a
> plan.
> ________________________________________
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CraigFriebolin-YDxpq3io04c@public.gmane.org

2006-06-28, 1:12 pm

I'm doing something "similar" right now for a CD-ROM project. My video falls
behind *often* so what I did was ran my flash movie at 30fps then counted
the frames and then I use seek points to sync everything back up again.

In a message dated 6/28/2006 10:07:42 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
davidkclark-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org writes:

Breeze recorded streams go out of sync too - at least in the few breezos
that I have watched after the fact. By the end of a one hour presentation
the presenter audio was behind the rest of the presentation by 20 or 30
seconds.

Would it not be possible to record one NetStream as a timeline using
ns.sendto make 'cue points' to start and stop other audio streams.
Then during
playback you use the position of the timeline NetStream as the canonical
'current time' and have other streams perform a seek or a pause at certain
intervals to keep themselves synced up with the timeline stream?

That way during playback if the timeline stream slips behind (not really
possible, it is not transferring much data) then all the others pause for a
bit, and if one other stream gets behind (likely for a video stream) then it
seeks ahead just a little to catch up (would glitch, but that is exactly
what you get in a live stream - missed frames).

Just a thought.

--
david

"Many people die at twenty five and aren't buried until they are seventy
five".
- Benjamin Franklin
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lists-2eRClUtwfwv10XsdtD+oqA@public.gmane.org

2006-06-28, 1:12 pm

Hey guys,

Not looking too good then. I am going to have to consider telling my clients
that this is not possible. Pity the rest of the application is nearly finished
:S, whoops!

It looks like this is a much desired feature. I wonder if we can start a
petition to Adobe or something to get our voices heard. I cannot believe that
this has been discussed for multiple years without result!!

Cheers

Kev

Quoting hank williams <hank777-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>:

> On 6/28/06, Xiaolei Shi <7thguardian-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> Well, if you dont like the word "impossible" let me put it this way. I have
> been chatting with other expert flascommers about *this topic* for a few
> years on this list (check the archives). No one on this list has succeeded
> in implementing anything that would provide synchronization, despite a very
> high level of interest in achieving the goal.
>
> So perhaps its just that no one is smart enough or determined enough. You be
> the judge.
>
> Regards
> Hank
>
>
> I had originally thought that the error builds up until both the clips are
> ________________________________________
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> http://training.figleaf.com
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CraigFriebolin-YDxpq3io04c@public.gmane.org

2006-06-28, 1:12 pm

Why is it impossible?

Maybe I should clarify my CD-ROM code a bit... because of how the CD-ROM is
set up I have more control over when I want to check for sync problems. But
the theory should still work... something like:

x = 0
onEnterFrame = function () {
x++
}

checkSync = setInterval(scrubIt, 100);

function scrubIt() {
_level0["ns"+_level0.currentVideo].seek(x/fps);
}

In a message dated 6/28/2006 10:32:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
lists-2eRClUtwfwv10XsdtD+oqA@public.gmane.org writes:

Hey guys,

Not looking too good then. I am going to have to consider telling my clients
that this is not possible. Pity the rest of the application is nearly
finished
:S, whoops!

It looks like this is a much desired feature. I wonder if we can start a
petition to Adobe or something to get our voices heard. I cannot believe that
this has been discussed for multiple years without result!!

Cheers

Kev

Quoting hank williams <hank777-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>:

> On 6/28/06, Xiaolei Shi <7thguardian-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> Well, if you dont like the word "impossible" let me put it this way. I have
> been chatting with other expert flascommers about *this topic* for a few
> years on this list (check the archives). No one on this list has succeeded
> in implementing anything that would provide synchronization, despite a
very
> high level of interest in achieving the goal.
>
> So perhaps its just that no one is smart enough or determined enough. You
be
> the judge.
>
> Regards
> Hank
>
>
> I had originally thought that the error builds up until both the clips are
> ________________________________________
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> http://www.figleaf.com
> http://training.figleaf.com
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Bill Sanders

2006-06-28, 1:12 pm

Kev,

A while back aYo had a chat recorder he was showing me. The playback
showed two thumbnails of the playback with the participants chatting
away. I'm not sure how he did it, but I would imagine if you
generated new NetStream and/or Stream instances for each a/v that
might do it. The sync problem would be dicey, and as Hank noted, may
be "impossible" (or just not possible yet), but it's not conceptually
out of the ballpartk. Maybe aYo will chirp in and help out.

Note to all: "Easy does it...."

Cheers,
Bill
On Jun 28, 2006, at 10:30 AM, lists-2eRClUtwfwv10XsdtD+oqA@public.gmane.org wrote:

> Hey guys,
>
> Not looking too good then. I am going to have to consider telling
> my clients
> that this is not possible. Pity the rest of the application is
> nearly finished
> :S, whoops!
>
> It looks like this is a much desired feature. I wonder if we can
> start a
> petition to Adobe or something to get our voices heard. I cannot
> believe that
> this has been discussed for multiple years without result!!
>
> Cheers
>
> Kev
>
> Quoting hank williams <hank777-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>:
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________
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bill sanders | www.sandlight.com | bloomfield, ct | 860-242-2260

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CraigFriebolin-YDxpq3io04c@public.gmane.org

2006-06-28, 1:12 pm

Oops... I should also say, the reason I'm using the FPS is because I have to
seamlessly sync multiple video streams and some presentation text that's on
various movie clip timelines. You could just as easily use getTime() and
create an offset from when the presentation started.

Also, I'm creating a separate netStream for each video and starting them one
frame early to avoid a small pause that occurred when the video playback
started

In a message dated 6/28/2006 10:39:01 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
CraigFriebolin-YDxpq3io04c@public.gmane.org writes:

Why is it impossible?

Maybe I should clarify my CD-ROM code a bit... because of how the CD-ROM is
set up I have more control over when I want to check for sync problems. But
the theory should still work... something like:

x = 0
onEnterFrame = function () {
x++
}

checkSync = setInterval(scrubIt, 100);

function scrubIt() {
_level0["ns"+_level0.currentVideo].seek(x/fps);
}

In a message dated 6/28/2006 10:32:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
lists-2eRClUtwfwv10XsdtD+oqA@public.gmane.org writes:

Hey guys,

Not looking too good then. I am going to have to consider telling my clients
that this is not possible. Pity the rest of the application is nearly
finished
:S, whoops!

It looks like this is a much desired feature. I wonder if we can start a
petition to Adobe or something to get our voices heard. I cannot believe
that
this has been discussed for multiple years without result!!

Cheers

Kev

Quoting hank williams <hank777-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>:

> On 6/28/06, Xiaolei Shi <7thguardian-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:
the[vbcol=seagreen]
>
>
>
> Well, if you dont like the word "impossible" let me put it this way. I
have
> been chatting with other expert flascommers about *this topic* for a few
> years on this list (check the archives). No one on this list has
succeeded
> in implementing anything that would provide synchronization, despite a
very
> high level of interest in achieving the goal.
>
> So perhaps its just that no one is smart enough or determined enough. You

be
> the judge.
>
> Regards
> Hank
>
>
> I had originally thought that the error builds up until both the clips
are
> ________________________________________
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Steve Wolkoff

2006-06-28, 1:12 pm

--=20
The only possibility is to lobby the red5 guys to make their code treat
certain groups of streams as live.
--

I wouldn't say it's the *only* possibility :-P

You could lobby the Adobe guys (and girls) to fix this.

In fact, Hank, consider it lobbied - I'm going to do some digging on
feasibility.

-steve.

steve wolkoff
adobe systems

-----Original Message-----
From: flashcomm-bounces-1Ss2GqJETD3yZ38Mhd3e/9ZfFG6BLHNm@public.gmane.org
[mailto:flashcomm-bounces-1Ss2GqJETD3yZ38Mhd3e/9ZfFG6BLHNm@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of hank
williams
Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 5:34 AM
To: FlashComm Mailing List
Subject: Re: [FlashComm] Recording multiple simultanious streams
(conference)

Hi kev,

Sorry that I was unclear. I hate to confirm this, but It is indeed an
unsolvable problem with FMS. They would need to change the code.

The only possibility is to lobby the red5 guys to make their code treat
certain groups of streams as live. Red5 is an Open Source flash
streaming
server.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news

Regards
Hank

On 6/28/06, lists-2eRClUtwfwv10XsdtD+oqA@public.gmane.org <lists-2eRClUtwfwv10XsdtD+oqA@public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
> Hi Hank,
>
> Have you actually managed to achieve what you described? Is there a
way to
> treat recorded streams as live, or is this what FMS should do but
doesn't?
>
> The impression that I am getting is that this is an unsolvable
> situation, which
> puts me in a awkward position :S. For my purposes the streams cannot
> really go
> out of sync, it would be too messy.
>
> Cheers
>
> Kev
>
> Quoting hank williams <hank777-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>:
>
> were.
a[vbcol=seagreen]
> live
> recorded.
No[vbcol=seagreen]
them[vbcol=seagreen]
> at
do.[vbcol=seagreen]
> project
cant[vbcol=seagreen]
> get
> live
throws[vbcol=seagreen]
> away
that[vbcol=seagreen]
> I
important[vbcol=seagreen]
NetStream[vbcol=seagreen]
> really
that[vbcol=seagreen]
initiated[vbcol=seagreen]
> side)..
to[vbcol=seagreen]
> the
>
>
>
> ________________________________________
_______
> FlashComm-1Ss2GqJETD3yZ38Mhd3e/9ZfFG6BLHNm@public.gmane.org
> To change your subscription options or search the archive:
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hank williams

2006-06-28, 1:12 pm

Thanks steve!

Hank

On 6/28/06, Steve Wolkoff <swolkoff-dv/VyGpifdQAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
> --
> The only possibility is to lobby the red5 guys to make their code treat
> certain groups of streams as live.
> --
>
> I wouldn't say it's the *only* possibility :-P
>
> You could lobby the Adobe guys (and girls) to fix this.
>
> In fact, Hank, consider it lobbied - I'm going to do some digging on
> feasibility.
>
> -steve.
>
> steve wolkoff
> adobe systems
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: flashcomm-bounces-1Ss2GqJETD3yZ38Mhd3e/9ZfFG6BLHNm@public.gmane.org
> [mailto:flashcomm-bounces-1Ss2GqJETD3yZ38Mhd3e/9ZfFG6BLHNm@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of hank
> williams
> Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 5:34 AM
> To: FlashComm Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [FlashComm] Recording multiple simultanious streams
> (conference)
>
> Hi kev,
>
> Sorry that I was unclear. I hate to confirm this, but It is indeed an
> unsolvable problem with FMS. They would need to change the code.
>
> The only possibility is to lobby the red5 guys to make their code treat
> certain groups of streams as live. Red5 is an Open Source flash
> streaming
> server.
>
> Sorry to be the bearer of bad news

>
> Regards
> Hank
>
>
> On 6/28/06, lists-2eRClUtwfwv10XsdtD+oqA@public.gmane.org <lists-2eRClUtwfwv10XsdtD+oqA@public.gmane.org> wrote:
> way to
> doesn't?
> a
> No
> them
> do.
> cant
> throws
> that
> important
> NetStream
> that
> initiated
> to
> ________________________________________
_______
> FlashComm-1Ss2GqJETD3yZ38Mhd3e/9ZfFG6BLHNm@public.gmane.org
> To change your subscription options or search the archive:
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>
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> To change your subscription options or search the archive:
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lists-2eRClUtwfwv10XsdtD+oqA@public.gmane.org

2006-06-28, 1:12 pm

Hi Steve

Thanks a lot for that, I appreciated more than you can believe : )

Kev

Quoting Steve Wolkoff <swolkoff-dv/VyGpifdQAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>:

> --
> The only possibility is to lobby the red5 guys to make their code treat
> certain groups of streams as live.
> --
>
> I wouldn't say it's the *only* possibility :-P
>
> You could lobby the Adobe guys (and girls) to fix this.
>
> In fact, Hank, consider it lobbied - I'm going to do some digging on
> feasibility.
>
> -steve.
>
> steve wolkoff
> adobe systems
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: flashcomm-bounces-1Ss2GqJETD3yZ38Mhd3e/9ZfFG6BLHNm@public.gmane.org
> [mailto:flashcomm-bounces-1Ss2GqJETD3yZ38Mhd3e/9ZfFG6BLHNm@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of hank
> williams
> Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 5:34 AM
> To: FlashComm Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [FlashComm] Recording multiple simultanious streams
> (conference)
>
> Hi kev,
>
> Sorry that I was unclear. I hate to confirm this, but It is indeed an
> unsolvable problem with FMS. They would need to change the code.
>
> The only possibility is to lobby the red5 guys to make their code treat
> certain groups of streams as live. Red5 is an Open Source flash
> streaming
> server.
>
> Sorry to be the bearer of bad news

>
> Regards
> Hank
>
>
> On 6/28/06, lists-2eRClUtwfwv10XsdtD+oqA@public.gmane.org <lists-2eRClUtwfwv10XsdtD+oqA@public.gmane.org> wrote:
> way to
> doesn't?
> a
> No
> them
> do.
> cant
> throws
> that
> important
> NetStream
> that
> initiated
> to
> ________________________________________
_______
> FlashComm-1Ss2GqJETD3yZ38Mhd3e/9ZfFG6BLHNm@public.gmane.org
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Brian Lesser

2006-06-28, 1:12 pm

It seems Hank pushed Steve's Red5 button! ;-)

Being able to play multiple streams in sync has been requested regularly since version 1.0. I believe Robert Reinhardt did some serious lobbying back then. Over the years I've asked for better control of in-memory buffering as one possible solution to the
problem. Many have commented that

1. the buffer being dumped when a stream is paused is a problem.
2. not being able to hold off playing a stream when the buffer reaches a certain point is another problem.

In other words you should be able to prebuffer a number of streams in memory and then trigger play back off all those streams when they have all reached a certain amount of time in their respective buffers. You should also be able to stop all streams from
playing without losing their buffered data and then restart them again etc...

Another suggestion - and one that I think Robert was pushing - was a kind of uber stream that would contain multiple synchronized streams...

In both cases serious work is required on the player and there has been no evidence that Macromedia/Adobe were willing to do that. At least so far.

Playing as live is an interesting idea for applications with small light weight video streams but I think it would run into serious quality problems for larger size streams (especially when there is more than one) where prebuffering is such a big benefit.

Yours truly,
-Brian

--
The only possibility is to lobby the red5 guys to make their code treat
certain groups of streams as live.
--

I wouldn't say it's the *only* possibility :-P

You could lobby the Adobe guys (and girls) to fix this.

In fact, Hank, consider it lobbied - I'm going to do some digging on
feasibility.

-steve.

steve wolkoff
adobe systems
________________________________________
______________________________
Brian Lesser
Assistant Director, Teaching and Technology Support
Computing and Communications Services
Ryerson University
350 Victoria St.
Toronto, Ontario Phone: (416) 979-5000 ext. 6835
M5B 2K3 Fax: (416) 979-5220
Office: AB48D E-mail: blesser-6s6ziW1YCwCw5LPnMra/2Q@public.gmane.org
(Enter through LB66) Web: http://www.ryerson.ca/~blesser
________________________________________
______________________________

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hank williams

2006-06-28, 1:12 pm

>
>
> Playing as live is an interesting idea for applications with small light
> weight video streams but I think it would run into serious quality problems
> for larger size streams (especially when there is more than one) where
> prebuffering is such a big benefit.

I agree, but there is no reason for the live solution to not be an option,
particularly when anything more agressive would require player changes. Also
for intranets I really think it wouldnt be a problem. I guess I would rather
have some solution than none.

Regards
Hank
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Brian Lesser

2006-06-28, 1:12 pm

Hi Hank,
Yes, especially if it is an easy addition that doesn't break an
api/expected behaviour.
Cheers,
-Brian

hank williams wrote:

>
>
>
> I agree, but there is no reason for the live solution to not be an
> option,
> particularly when anything more agressive would require player
> changes. Also
> for intranets I really think it wouldnt be a problem. I guess I would
> rather
> have some solution than none.
>
> Regards
> Hank
> ________________________________________
_______
> FlashComm-1Ss2GqJETD3yZ38Mhd3e/9ZfFG6BLHNm@public.gmane.org
> To change your subscription options or search the archive:
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>
> Brought to you by Fig Leaf Software
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--
________________________________________
______________________________
Brian Lesser
Assistant Director, Teaching and Technology Support
Computing and Communications Services
Ryerson University
350 Victoria St.
Toronto, Ontario Phone: (416) 979-5000 ext. 6835
M5B 2K3 Fax: (416) 979-5220
Office: AB48D E-mail: blesser-6s6ziW1YCwCw5LPnMra/2Q@public.gmane.org
(Enter through LB66) Web: http://www.ryerson.ca/~blesser
________________________________________
______________________________

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Graeme Bull

2006-06-28, 1:12 pm

Holy sh*t.. Hank, do you have tons of money or something? Senior manager of
a government owned site? Have your own news station? You've actually got
Steve responding!! And acting on it!! Do it again!

On a more serious note, this has been lobbied for since the dark ages of
FCS.. If it wasn't responded to until now, what makes Adobe think we would
think they would respond at all? Would be the reason people think that it is
the only possibility to turn to Red5.

Graeme

-----Original Message-----
From: flashcomm-bounces-1Ss2GqJETD3yZ38Mhd3e/9ZfFG6BLHNm@public.gmane.org
[mailto:flashcomm-bounces-1Ss2GqJETD3yZ38Mhd3e/9ZfFG6BLHNm@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Steve Wolkoff
Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 12:06 AM
To: FlashComm Mailing List
Subject: RE: [FlashComm] Recording multiple simultanious streams
(conference)

--
The only possibility is to lobby the red5 guys to make their code treat
certain groups of streams as live.
--

I wouldn't say it's the *only* possibility :-P

You could lobby the Adobe guys (and girls) to fix this.

In fact, Hank, consider it lobbied - I'm going to do some digging on
feasibility.

-steve.

steve wolkoff
adobe systems

-----Original Message-----
From: flashcomm-bounces-1Ss2GqJETD3yZ38Mhd3e/9ZfFG6BLHNm@public.gmane.org
[mailto:flashcomm-bounces-1Ss2GqJETD3yZ38Mhd3e/9ZfFG6BLHNm@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of hank williams
Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 5:34 AM
To: FlashComm Mailing List
Subject: Re: [FlashComm] Recording multiple simultanious streams
(conference)

Hi kev,

Sorry that I was unclear. I hate to confirm this, but It is indeed an
unsolvable problem with FMS. They would need to change the code.

The only possibility is to lobby the red5 guys to make their code treat
certain groups of streams as live. Red5 is an Open Source flash streaming
server.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news

Regards
Hank

On 6/28/06, lists-2eRClUtwfwv10XsdtD+oqA@public.gmane.org <lists-2eRClUtwfwv10XsdtD+oqA@public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
> Hi Hank,
>
> Have you actually managed to achieve what you described? Is there a
way to
> treat recorded streams as live, or is this what FMS should do but
doesn't?
>
> The impression that I am getting is that this is an unsolvable
> situation, which puts me in a awkward position :S. For my purposes the
> streams cannot really go out of sync, it would be too messy.
>
> Cheers
>
> Kev
>
> Quoting hank williams <hank777-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>:
>
> were.
a[vbcol=seagreen]
> live
> recorded.
No[vbcol=seagreen]
them[vbcol=seagreen]
> at
do.[vbcol=seagreen]
> project
cant[vbcol=seagreen]
> get
> live
throws[vbcol=seagreen]
> away
that[vbcol=seagreen]
> I
important[vbcol=seagreen]
NetStream[vbcol=seagreen]
> really
that[vbcol=seagreen]
initiated[vbcol=seagreen]
> side)..
to[vbcol=seagreen]
> the
>
>
>
> ________________________________________
_______
> FlashComm-1Ss2GqJETD3yZ38Mhd3e/9ZfFG6BLHNm@public.gmane.org
> To change your subscription options or search the archive:
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>
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[a /]

2006-06-28, 1:12 pm

Sorry been out all day and just got back to see this feisty interaction in
progress. As Bill has stated the myforum2 online office (an AV system) has a
meeting recorder which captures live streams of conversing users and records
them for future playback. There have been sync problems but, that in all
fairness I found has little to do with FMS and a lot more to do with the
distance of each users ping time from the server and thus the space between
which captured data is sent to the server. The bandwidth output of the
recording camera and in some cases the audio video encoding setup can also
be factors. As you all know ping times all vary, but when the clients have
similar ping times , there is generally no loss in sync. I have played back
meetings 1 to 2 hours long with no sync problems, the meeting playing back
just as I remember it happening with all the players thrusting and riposting
in sync.

[a /]

-----Original Message-----
From: flashcomm-bounces-1Ss2GqJETD3yZ38Mhd3e/9ZfFG6BLHNm@public.gmane.org
[mailto:flashcomm-bounces-1Ss2GqJETD3yZ38Mhd3e/9ZfFG6BLHNm@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Bill Sanders
Sent: 28 June 2006 15:43
To: FlashComm Mailing List
Subject: Re: [FlashComm] Recording multiple simultanious streams
(conference)

Kev,

A while back aYo had a chat recorder he was showing me. The playback
showed two thumbnails of the playback with the participants chatting
away. I'm not sure how he did it, but I would imagine if you
generated new NetStream and/or Stream instances for each a/v that
might do it. The sync problem would be dicey, and as Hank noted, may
be "impossible" (or just not possible yet), but it's not conceptually
out of the ballpartk. Maybe aYo will chirp in and help out.

Note to all: "Easy does it...."

Cheers,
Bill
On Jun 28, 2006, at 10:30 AM, lists-2eRClUtwfwv10XsdtD+oqA@public.gmane.org wrote:

> Hey guys,
>
> Not looking too good then. I am going to have to consider telling
> my clients
> that this is not possible. Pity the rest of the application is
> nearly finished
> :S, whoops!
>
> It looks like this is a much desired feature. I wonder if we can
> start a
> petition to Adobe or something to get our voices heard. I cannot
> believe that
> this has been discussed for multiple years without result!!
>
> Cheers
>
> Kev
>
> Quoting hank williams <hank777-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>:
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________
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bill sanders | www.sandlight.com | bloomfield, ct | 860-242-2260

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Pritham Shetty

2006-06-29, 1:11 am

You can play recorded streams in live mode today.=20

Create a server side stream say "foo"
Play your recorded stream say "bar" into it.

Let Flash clients subscribe to "foo". This works pretty well, Breeze
uses this technique to play FLV's with video.

Pritham.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: flashcomm-bounces-1Ss2GqJETD3yZ38Mhd3e/9ZfFG6BLHNm@public.gmane.org [mailto:flashcomm-
> bounces-1Ss2GqJETD3yZ38Mhd3e/9ZfFG6BLHNm@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of hank williams
> Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 8:45 AM
> To: FlashComm Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [FlashComm] Recording multiple simultanious streams
> (conference)
>=20
light[vbcol=seagreen]
> problems
where[vbcol=seagreen]
>=20
>=20
> I agree, but there is no reason for the live solution to not be an
option,
> particularly when anything more agressive would require player
changes.
> Also
> for intranets I really think it wouldnt be a problem. I guess I would
> rather
> have some solution than none.
>=20
> Regards
> Hank
> ________________________________________
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>=20
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hank williams

2006-06-29, 1:11 am

Pritham,

If you start n streams at the same time, as if the streams were coming
from a live source, will they remain in sync (as intuitively one would
suspect)

Hank

On 6/28/06, Pritham Shetty <pshetty-dv/VyGpifdQAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:
> You can play recorded streams in live mode today.
>
> Create a server side stream say "foo"
> Play your recorded stream say "bar" into it.
>
> Let Flash clients subscribe to "foo". This works pretty well, Breeze
> uses this technique to play FLV's with video.
>
>
> Pritham.
>
>
> light
> where
> option,
> changes.
> ________________________________________
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Vinícius Hacebe

2006-07-04, 1:11 am

I think it is possible as Breeze can do this... Breeze is Flash comm based,
so Maybe you can build it! I was wondering about it. I ll try to make it!!

but something will not be fine... The buffer time, from the beggining of the
second stream from the first one that is already being played... You will
have a non-sync stream!!!

I need a answer too!
regards,
Hacebe

2006/6/28, hank williams <hank777-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>:
>
> Pritham,
>
> If you start n streams at the same time, as if the streams were coming
> from a live source, will they remain in sync (as intuitively one would
> suspect)
>
> Hank
>
> On 6/28/06, Pritham Shetty <pshetty-dv/VyGpifdQAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:
> ________________________________________
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Dario De Agostini

2006-07-07, 1:12 pm

Graeme Bull wrote:
> On a more serious note, this has been lobbied for since the dark ages of
> FCS.. If it wasn't responded to until now, what makes Adobe think we would
> think they would respond at all? Would be the reason people think that it is
> the only possibility to turn to Red5.
>

how can i not quote this ?

btw for our conferencing system we recorded an "action only" stream
which triggers the play for recorded streams.
You just neet to "correct" timings taking in account pings and various
delays...

it works very good (also with users with VERY different lines speeds and
pings). I think it's exactly what breeze does since result looks the same.

Dario De Agostini
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Stefan Richter

2006-07-07, 1:12 pm

I got to say even Breeze's implementation is not ideal.
If you pause and restart a Breezo then the entire screen 'refreshes',
causing a delay. This is highly annoying (and a usability issue) when you
often start and stop like I do (working through a Breeze tutorial).
It drives me nuts.

Another thing: I often start a Breezo, then pause it to do some real work,
then come back to it 2 hours later (browser still open). 9 out of 10 times
the Breezo will tall me 'playing' but nothing happens on screen. Stefan hits
F5, seeks, presses start - same thing. Closes browser and reopens - now ok.

There are more bugs, quite a few actually (mostly minor but still they are
there, ie why can't they check for undefined values before displaying
them?), in Breeze. So even Adobe can't do it properly. Bleh ;-)

Stefan

> -----Original Message-----
> From: flashcomm-bounces-1Ss2GqJETD3yZ38Mhd3e/9ZfFG6BLHNm@public.gmane.org
> [mailto:flashcomm-bounces-1Ss2GqJETD3yZ38Mhd3e/9ZfFG6BLHNm@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of
> Dario De Agostini
> Sent: 07 July 2006 16:21
> To: FlashComm Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [FlashComm] Recording multiple simultanious
> streams (conference)
>
> Graeme Bull wrote:
> dark ages
> Adobe think
> reason people
>
> how can i not quote this ?

>
> btw for our conferencing system we recorded an "action only"
> stream which triggers the play for recorded streams.
> You just neet to "correct" timings taking in account pings
> and various delays...
>
> it works very good (also with users with VERY different lines
> speeds and pings). I think it's exactly what breeze does
> since result looks the same.
>
> Dario De Agostini
> ________________________________________
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> FlashComm-1Ss2GqJETD3yZ38Mhd3e/9ZfFG6BLHNm@public.gmane.org
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>
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> Premier Authorized Adobe Consulting and Training
> http://www.figleaf.com http://training.figleaf.com
>

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