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Infrastructure/QOS
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| relaxandchillout@gmail.com 2007-08-04, 1:11 pm |
| Hi,
I work for a UK charity (We currently have three small offices where I
could not conceive of more than two VOIP 'lines' at each) we do also
have a lot of home based broadband enabled users.
I am currently experimenting with a single line Camrivox Flexor 151 /
Gradwell out over a Draytek Vigor 2800VG latest firmware QOS enabled
(Manual says when Qos enabled prioritises SIP by default) to Zen
Internet on a 256u/512down ADSL circuit and then on to Gradwell. The
Draytek/Zen/ADSL link is shared with typical Broadband applications
like surfing and email + the occasional bit of downloading. Voice
performance is 'not bad' but occasionally get 'words missing' which I
suppose could be network packet loss. Primarily the reason we are
interested in VOIP is to save money on Small Office to PSTN UK land-
line calls (Each office currently spends about =A32k/year to BT 75% of
which is to UK PSTN national numbers!)
Anyhow we have just received a grant to spend on infrastructure and I
would like to 'spend some capital' to save ongoing running (Dreaded BT
phone bill! costs). How would you recommend I spend this money to
optimise our VOIP experience (and to minimise things such as packet
loss and other drop outs)
Should I (for example):
1/ Spend it on cisco kit (to replace the Draytek's) - We may have
access to some refurbished but fully supported units?
2/ Change ISP to somebody who is 'best' at prioritising SIP traffic?
Who might that be?
3/ Upgrade the ADSL to MAX e.g. 512up/8M down or even ADSL2?
4/ Implement duplicate ADSL circuits (one for VOIP, one for everything
else?)
5/ Going for a more 'homogeneous' ISP environment (We currently use
plusNET, Zen and Daemon)
All of the above? none of the above? etc....
If you had a few thousand pounds to 'improve' your VOIP QOS (From
handset to UK PSTN national numbers) via infrastructure improvements,
where would you spend the money? What would be the priority as far as
QOS is concerend?
Many thanks,
Stef
| |
|
| relaxandchillout@gmail.com wrote:
>
> 1/ Spend it on cisco kit (to replace the Draytek's) - We may have
> access to some refurbished but fully supported units?
Then you have to spend $$$$ on a cisco expert to set it up for you.
> 2/ Change ISP to somebody who is 'best' at prioritising SIP traffic?
> Who might that be?
The ISP can't do anything about your upstream traffic, and this is what
is likely to cause you the most problems.
> 3/ Upgrade the ADSL to MAX e.g. 512up/8M down or even ADSL2?
Max will give more upstream. Sometimes it makes the line more unreliable
> 4/ Implement duplicate ADSL circuits (one for VOIP, one for everything
> else?)
Works nicely, but is operati
> 5/ Going for a more 'homogeneous' ISP environment (We currently use
> plusNET, Zen and Daemon)
Would maybe help a bit.
>
> If you had a few thousand pounds to 'improve' your VOIP QOS (From
> handset to UK PSTN national numbers) via infrastructure improvements,
> where would you spend the money? What would be the priority as far as
> QOS is concerend?
>
My favourite Qos product is the Converged Access CTX-1000. I may be
biased because the company I work for holds them in stock. But they
work really nicely.
They are a bridged mode device that you just slot in between your ADSL
router and your main network switch.
The other thing I would do is swap the the router for one that is based
on a AR7 chipset (such as the Zyxel P660R-61C) as these hold ADSL line
sync best on max lines.
I don't recommend any other Zyxel router for SIP traffic though.
The first thing to do is to graph the traffic throughput on your lines
(using some like MRTG, or cacti) and the latency/packet loss (using
smokeping). This will give an idea about your usage patterns and maybe
spot any faults on the lines.
Tim
| |
| Gordon Henderson 2007-08-04, 7:11 pm |
| In article <1186247119.473917.204950@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com>,
<relaxandchillout@gmail.com> wrote:
>Hi,
>
>I work for a UK charity (We currently have three small offices where I
>could not conceive of more than two VOIP 'lines' at each) we do also
>have a lot of home based broadband enabled users.
>
>I am currently experimenting with a single line Camrivox Flexor 151 /
>Gradwell out over a Draytek Vigor 2800VG latest firmware QOS enabled
>(Manual says when Qos enabled prioritises SIP by default) to Zen
>Internet on a 256u/512down ADSL circuit and then on to Gradwell. The
>Draytek/Zen/ADSL link is shared with typical Broadband applications
>like surfing and email + the occasional bit of downloading. Voice
>performance is 'not bad' but occasionally get 'words missing' which I
>suppose could be network packet loss. Primarily the reason we are
>interested in VOIP is to save money on Small Office to PSTN UK land-
>line calls (Each office currently spends about £2k/year to BT 75% of
>which is to UK PSTN national numbers!)
>
>Anyhow we have just received a grant to spend on infrastructure and I
>would like to 'spend some capital' to save ongoing running (Dreaded BT
>phone bill! costs). How would you recommend I spend this money to
>optimise our VOIP experience (and to minimise things such as packet
>loss and other drop outs)
>
>Should I (for example):
>
>1/ Spend it on cisco kit (to replace the Draytek's) - We may have
>access to some refurbished but fully supported units?
You won't gain any "better" QoS.
>2/ Change ISP to somebody who is 'best' at prioritising SIP traffic?
>Who might that be?
If you find it, let me know ;-)
>3/ Upgrade the ADSL to MAX e.g. 512up/8M down or even ADSL2?
Definately.
>4/ Implement duplicate ADSL circuits (one for VOIP, one for everything
>else?)
Absolutely.
>5/ Going for a more 'homogeneous' ISP environment (We currently use
>plusNET, Zen and Daemon)
That will help if you do a lot of direct office to office connections
VPNs, etc. Your VoIP traffic is probably not going directly, but via a
Gradwell server, so it's less important.
>All of the above? none of the above? etc....
Upgrade to a Max service. That will give you more "headroom".
But do be aware that you can only efectively apply traffic shaping/QoS
to outbound traffic. There is nothing you can really do to inbound
traffic, because once it's been clocked over the wire, and arrived
at the router, it's too late for the router to do anything with it,
other than to pass it through. On the outboumd side, it can buffer up a
small amount of data and prioritise VoIP packets, (but it can only store
so much if it gets 160 byte VoIP packets and 1500 byte email packets,
you quickly run out of time if you store too many!) So QoS on a router
will do the right thing when you send a large email, upload big data,
etc. but will struggle to make any difference when someone downloads a
huge email/file/web page...
So a better solution is to get a completely separate 2nd BT line installed
and use it purely for VoIP. You don't even need QoS then. You might
even be able to front both routers with a 3rd router with 3 Ethernet
interfaces on to automagically work out the right circuit to put traffic
on, and fail-over to one line should the other go down - I've done this
with Linux routers, but don't know any commercial ones that can do this.
But either way, you're still at the mercy of the ISP that carries your
data (and really BT before it gets to the ISP), and whatever networks
are between your ISP and the telco. Telco (Gradwell) might be able to
tell you who they have the "best" peering with from that point of view,
so you can base your choice on that, but simply do a few traceroute
from each site on a different ISP to get a feel for it yourself.
>If you had a few thousand pounds to 'improve' your VOIP QOS (From
>handset to UK PSTN national numbers) via infrastructure improvements,
>where would you spend the money? What would be the priority as far as
>QOS is concerend?
A 2nd, dedicated ADSL line.
Gordon
| |
|
| Theo Markettos wrote:
> I've heard that said before, and I don't quite understand. Most inbound
> non-VOIP traffic is TCP. Why can't the router drop some packets in a TCP
> stream, which will cause TCP windowing in the sender to think there's
> network congestion and back off a bit? It won't help if you have lots of
> short-lived TCP connections (webbrowsing lots of different sites) but if you
> have a long TCP connection (downloading something) shouldn't the router be
> able to persuade the sender to control the incoming bandwidth?
>
It can. And this technique works very well if done properly (a la CTX1000)
It takes a while for TCP connections to ramp up in speed. This gives a
qos box window to keep the inbound connection a bit suppresed and stop
it going too fast. A qos box has a few options, including sending ECN,
introducing latency to TCP connections or plain dropping packets.
Also in favour is the large download speed of ADSL - it takes a lot go
saturate the inbound connection.
Tim
| |
| relaxandchillout@gmail.com 2007-08-05, 7:11 pm |
| On Aug 4, 7:05 pm, Tim <nutn...@kooky.org> wrote:
> relaxandchill...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Works nicely, but is operati
Looks like you were truncated! What were you planning to say... :-)
My problem with having a duplicate BT line for a maximum of two voip
'circuits' is running cost (About =A3500/annum extra inc ISP costs).
What I wanted to do was to spend CAPITAL (from my grant) to offset
future running costs so I am quite interested in the CTX-1000
thinggy ... I may even set up a 'test rig' in one office first to try
it out:
Anyhow for first steps I think I'll:
1/ Get the Zen Internet ADSL circuit upgraded to 4xxK/up 8M/down or as
fast as it will go...
2/ May try downgrading the Camrivox Codex to GSM? as for PSTN some
people seem to say its 'good enough?'
Now currently I have a combo Vigor 2800VG as my ADSL termination and I
am also using it's PPTP VPN facilities for inbound 'dial-up' . If I
was to trial the CTX-1000 appliance would I have to replace the Vigor
and if so what ADSL termination/modem and router/firewall/VPNserver
would you suggest? My guess is that the CTX would sit between the ADSL
modem and new router/firewall/VPNserver... Or I may have got this
wrong?
(I am self taught with this Ethernet stuff AND STILL VERY MUCH
LEARNING! so any guidance would be appreciated)
Many thanks,
Stef
| |
|
| relaxandchillout@gmail.com wrote:
> On Aug 4, 7:05 pm, Tim <nutn...@kooky.org> wrote:
>
>
>
.... operational expense, not capital expense.
> 1/ Get the Zen Internet ADSL circuit upgraded to 4xxK/up 8M/down or as
> fast as it will go...
Good idea. Makesure you have decent ADSL filters on your line first.
Preferably a BT style faceplate filter. Everything you can do to make
your line cleaner means you get better speeds and fewer resyncs on Max.
>
> 2/ May try downgrading the Camrivox Codex to GSM? as for PSTN some
> people seem to say its 'good enough?'
It is, but it isn't as nice to listen to.
Also, it is really unlikely (although not impossible) that you are
maxing out your bandwidth through voice calls alone.
>
> Now currently I have a combo Vigor 2800VG as my ADSL termination and I
> am also using it's PPTP VPN facilities for inbound 'dial-up' . If I
> was to trial the CTX-1000 appliance would I have to replace the Vigor
> and if so what ADSL termination/modem and router/firewall/VPNserver
> would you suggest? My guess is that the CTX would sit between the ADSL
> modem and new router/firewall/VPNserver... Or I may have got this
> wrong?
You could keep the vigor. Just you can't use its wireless bit or its
VoIP bit.
ADSL ---- Vigor ---- CTX-1000 ---- Ethernet switch
All your PCs, IP phones, wireless access point, whatever
The important thing is that any traffic that will go down the ADSL has
been through the CTX first.
Tim
| |
|
| On 4 Aug, 18:05, relaxandchill...@gmail.com wrote:
> Primarily the reason we are
> interested in VOIP is to save money on Small Office to PSTN UK land-
> line calls (Each office currently spends about =A32k/year to BT 75% of
> which is to UK PSTN national numbers!)
VoIP probably isn't going to save much on calls to UK land lines
compared to other tariff options on your land lines.
You can use prefix dialling or Carrier Pre-Selection (CPS) to put your
calls through another carrier.
If you just want to save money on call charges I would focus on doing
that by paying less. Some of your capital could go on a least cost
routing box if needed.
Phil
| |
| relaxandchillout@gmail.com 2007-08-06, 1:11 pm |
| On Aug 6, 9:33 am, PhilT <news...@gmail.com> wrote:
> VoIP probably isn't going to save much on calls to UK land lines
> compared to other tariff options on your land lines.
We currently have an ISDN/PBX through BT (Don't know who installed it
though). Call costs are extortionate though I understand we could
'move it from BT' to another (much cheaper) service provider?
Any suggestions for who to look at?
Any down sides to doing this?
>
> You can use prefix dialling or Carrier Pre-Selection (CPS) to put your
> calls through another carrier.
>
> If you just want to save money on call charges I would focus on doing
> that by paying less. Some of your capital could go on a least cost
> routing box if needed.
Doh? Have never come across these before...
Any suggestions?
How would they connect to our PBX?
To be honest, coming from an IT (not PBX) background I found the idea
of an ip/phone/dect/solution for two 'lines' to augment the existing
PBX seemed quite attractive. Now if I could move the PBX service to a
cheaper supplier that would be GR8 too!
------------------------
Also, two of our offices are moving to new premises soon so I suppose
we will need new PBX/phones... Any idea who we should be talking to
(We are in the charity sector) We have also used "Class Telecom" but
their fixed monthly charges seem high....
Could anyone point me to a good URL about how to purchase, and get
installed, a UK SME PBX + phones...
(Double DOH!!! last time I saw this being done, I was laying cat5
cables for the PC's whilst the "man from Class" was putting down cat5
for handsets?)
There must be a better way?
Who offers affordable converged solutions?
Thanks for all the help so far,
Stef
> Phil
| |
|
| relaxandchillout@gmail.com wrote:
> On Aug 6, 9:33 am, PhilT <news...@gmail.com> wrote:
Seconded - you have to spend a /hell/ of a lot on calls to justify a new
phone system from cisco to 'save money'!
[vbcol=seagreen]
> Doh? Have never come across these before...
>
> Any suggestions?
> How would they connect to our PBX?
They don't - your order CPS through a service provider, then dial a short
code [4-5 digits] to route calls through them. Combining the cheapest
routes for each charge band and time of day is called 'least-cost routing'
or LCR.
> To be honest, coming from an IT (not PBX) background I found the idea
> of an ip/phone/dect/solution for two 'lines' to augment the existing
> PBX seemed quite attractive. Now if I could move the PBX service to a
> cheaper supplier that would be GR8 too!
How about 'yourself'? There are several PBX platforms that run on PC
hardware and use ethernet-connected handsets. Just think: you could expand
your empire and have a bigger budget next year!
But seriously, you could use a platform like Asterisk, to sit between your
existing PBX and your PSTN connection; this would bring you immediate
benefits [VoIP, LCR, potentially more economical handsets, softphones on
homeworkers laptops, fax2email] for relatively little outlay [multi-port
ISDN card + decent server to run it on + your time to set it up], whilst
not burning any bridges. You can keep your existing PBX, and migrate users
over to the new platform at your leisure. Most likely they'll be nagging
you to move them over when users of the new system tell them of all the
benefits, and that's the best way to have it when migrating people scared
of change.
> Also, two of our offices are moving to new premises soon so I suppose
> we will need new PBX/phones...
Define 'need'? Surely your PBX doesn't self-destruct when moved from one
place to another?
> Could anyone point me to a good URL about how to purchase, and get
> installed, a UK SME PBX + phones...
>
> (Double DOH!!! last time I saw this being done, I was laying cat5
> cables for the PC's whilst the "man from Class" was putting down cat5
> for handsets?)
Ever heard of structured cabling? ;-)
--
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| |
| Gordon Henderson 2007-08-06, 7:11 pm |
| In article <1433471.LExJ0AJ4o0@ale.cx>, alexd <troffasky@hotmail.com> wrote:
> relaxandchillout@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
>Seconded - you have to spend a /hell/ of a lot on calls to justify a new
>phone system from cisco to 'save money'!
Who says you need to buy a phone system from Cisco?
>
>They don't - your order CPS through a service provider, then dial a short
>code [4-5 digits] to route calls through them. Combining the cheapest
>routes for each charge band and time of day is called 'least-cost routing'
>or LCR.
>
>
>How about 'yourself'? There are several PBX platforms that run on PC
>hardware and use ethernet-connected handsets. Just think: you could expand
>your empire and have a bigger budget next year!
>But seriously, you could use a platform like Asterisk, to sit between your
>existing PBX and your PSTN connection; this would bring you immediate
>benefits [VoIP, LCR, potentially more economical handsets, softphones on
>homeworkers laptops, fax2email] for relatively little outlay [multi-port
>ISDN card + decent server to run it on + your time to set it up], whilst
>not burning any bridges. You can keep your existing PBX, and migrate users
>over to the new platform at your leisure. Most likely they'll be nagging
>you to move them over when users of the new system tell them of all the
>benefits, and that's the best way to have it when migrating people scared
>of change.
Multi-port ISDN cards aren't that cheap )-:
But that is otherwise a sensible suggestion... The down-side is learning
how to setup asterisk (or similar) but there are plenty of "live" CDs
to do it these days.
But ultimately getting rid of the ISDN lines and therefore the monthly
rental on these line might be worthwhile in the longer term...
>
>Define 'need'? Surely your PBX doesn't self-destruct when moved from one
>place to another?
It might be the need to move ISDN lines, etc. or moving from ISDN to POTS
or vice-versa, taking on/releasing staff, etc... I had a local case
recently where the company that installed their old PBX (about £500 of
Panasonic kit, standard 3+8 stuff) charge them £3K a go when they move
offices - and their last most was literally over the corridor... Granted
the 3K did include putting down the wires, however....
Gordon
| |
|
| relaxandchillout@gmail.com wrote:
> On Aug 6, 9:33 am, PhilT <news...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> We currently have an ISDN/PBX through BT (Don't know who installed it
> though). Call costs are extortionate though I understand we could
> 'move it from BT' to another (much cheaper) service provider?
You can move to another service provider for your calls, but you will
still pay for the ISDN line rental.
Ok, in theory you can move the line rental to another company too, but
it will still be about the same cost.
OTOH, a decent business ADSL max connection will give around 7/8 phone
calls at ISDN quality. With a decent Qos box and not too crazy usage,
you can share this line with your office internet access requirements.
To me, you test the ADSL with smokeping first. If it looks good, you
ditch your ISDN lines and save paying BT $$$ a month for ADSL.
> Any down sides to doing this?
Very few are actually much cheaper. They rip you off on mobiles to
advertise a headline cheap national call rate, or they have a large
minimum call charge. Or they bill calls in 30 second chunks.
Telecom's billing is all about averages.
Some of the really cheap deals use tricks like 55 second minutes  I
used one company for a bit that was great, but calls to mobiles took
15-25 seconds to connect.
That said, you can get a better deal than BT for call charges.
> Also, two of our offices are moving to new premises soon so I suppose
> we will need new PBX/phones... Any idea who we should be talking to
> (We are in the charity sector) We have also used "Class Telecom" but
> their fixed monthly charges seem high....
If you go with hosted IP, then all you need to do is plug your IP phones
into the ADSL connection in the other office, and you've moved
> Could anyone point me to a good URL about how to purchase, and get
> installed, a UK SME PBX + phones...
Where are you based? The company I work for has lots and lots of
resellers all up and down the country.
If you really want to keep your ISDN lines, then you could put an IP PBX
onsite. This gives you some flexibility. For instance, you could
route your outbound calls out through a SIP provider, but receive
inbound on ISDN. When you are confident that the VoIP works to your
satisfaction, then port your ISDN phone numbers to a VoIP provider.
> (Double DOH!!! last time I saw this being done, I was laying cat5
> cables for the PC's whilst the "man from Class" was putting down cat5
> for handsets?)
Just get a decent cabling contractor in to put cat5 in the building
first, with all the cables back to a patch panel in a wiring cabinet.
Of course, the telecoms bloke will say he can't trust somebody else's
cabling because they want to charge you loads to do it again. In which
case, you find another telecoms company.
Lots of IP phones have a built in ethernet switch. So you only need 1
cat5 per desk. The PC can then be connected to the back of the IP phone.
> Who offers affordable converged solutions?
It is kind of a new market. With lots of competent and incompetent
players. Well, it isn't really that new because VoIP has been around a
long time, but only really in the last 2 years has the equipment really
been up to the job.
Just makesure you install a SIP based system. With proper SIP phones.
Then you can mix and match later on. Be wary of any system where you
are forced to use handsets that match the system.
Tim
| |
|
| alexd wrote:
> But seriously, you could use a platform like Asterisk, to sit between your
> existing PBX and your PSTN connection; this would bring you immediate
> benefits [VoIP, LCR, potentially more economical handsets, softphones on
> homeworkers laptops, fax2email] for relatively little outlay [multi-port
> ISDN card + decent server to run it on + your time to set it up], whilst
> not burning any bridges. You can keep your existing PBX, and migrate users
> over to the new platform at your leisure. Most likely they'll be nagging
> you to move them over when users of the new system tell them of all the
> benefits, and that's the best way to have it when migrating people scared
> of change.
Asterisk is cool, but it is a very steep learning curve.
But there are companies around who will supply asterisk, ready installed
on nice hardware with a support contract. If you don't want to DIY all
the way.
> Define 'need'? Surely your PBX doesn't self-destruct when moved from one
> place to another?
Moving the PBX is against contract terms of many telecoms companies.
The love lockin.
Tim
| |
|
| relaxandchillout@gmail.com wrote:
> Who offers affordable converged solutions?
>
Why don't you ask the people who have been replying to your posts for
quotes?
Or maybe your best course of action would be to take a 1 day SIP starter
course with me (or any of the other people replying to posts) so that
you are better able to understand the possibilities of what is possible.
So then you'd be in a better position to specify what you want, and
choose which solution would be best for your organisation.
Tim
| |
|
| Gordon Henderson wrote:
> In article <1433471.LExJ0AJ4o0@ale.cx>, alexd <troffasky@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Multi-port ISDN cards aren't that cheap )-:
We still haven't established what type of ISDN it is, for that matter
> But that is otherwise a sensible suggestion... The down-side is learning
> how to setup asterisk (or similar) but there are plenty of "live" CDs
> to do it these days.
If the OP is willing, perhaps the organisation would find it more cost
effective to train him on it and have him maintain all their PBXes, than
paying the money to someone else.
> But ultimately getting rid of the ISDN lines and therefore the monthly
> rental on these line might be worthwhile in the longer term...
>
>
> It might be the need to move ISDN lines, etc. or moving from ISDN to POTS
> or vice-versa, taking on/releasing staff, etc...
Another possibility is an ISDN 'ATA' like an Axtan IPCallBox or similar.
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| |
| relaxandchillout@gmail.com 2007-08-07, 1:11 pm |
| On Aug 6, 11:23 pm, Tim <nutn...@kooky.org> wrote:
> relaxandchill...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Why don't you ask the people who have been replying to your posts for
> quotes?
>
> Or maybe your best course of action would be to take a 1 day SIP starter
> course with me (or any of the other people replying to posts) so that
> you are better able to understand the possibilities of what is possible.
>
> So then you'd be in a better position to specify what you want, and
> choose which solution would be best for your organisation.
>
> Tim
OK, in my job plan this year one of the things it says it says: "Save
money on telecoms" it does not say become a SIP expert ;-) Part of me
would like to, part of me says: HELP - NOT ENOUGH HOURS IN THE DAY!
We are moving into a new office in London in late Sept and Cardiff in
Jan. Each office will be small probably no more than four rooms co-
located on the same floor. Structured cabling will most probably not
be available so will have to run cat5 in 'spiders web' type fashion.
Now here comes the fun bit, sticking my neck out...
* We could provision each site with a pair of BT POTS lines both with
ADSL Max (1 for data 1 for VOIP). This would also provide each site
with two POTS phones for emergency backup and FAX.
Now ideally what I would like to purchase would be:
1/ A preconfigured VOIP 'box' + 10 handsets + Cables
[I would be quite happy to run pairs of cables, 1 for phone, one for
co-located PC but a real BONUS would be if I could plug our router
into 'VOIPbox' and plug the PC's 'into the back of the phones' so to
speak]
2/ A Monthly contract (From somebody like Gradwell which would give me
'free' 01, 02, 03 numbers for a fixed monthly fee + 10p/min to
Mobiles).
Woo Hoo a totally ADSL/Voip/SIP solution -
Does the above sound reckless ?
>From whom could I purchase item 1 above?
Ta,
Stef
| |
| Gordon Henderson 2007-08-07, 1:11 pm |
| In article <1186490475.026207.47580@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com>,
<relaxandchillout@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Aug 6, 11:23 pm, Tim <nutn...@kooky.org> wrote:
>
>OK, in my job plan this year one of the things it says it says: "Save
>money on telecoms" it does not say become a SIP expert ;-) Part of me
>would like to, part of me says: HELP - NOT ENOUGH HOURS IN THE DAY!
>
>We are moving into a new office in London in late Sept and Cardiff in
>Jan. Each office will be small probably no more than four rooms co-
>located on the same floor. Structured cabling will most probably not
>be available so will have to run cat5 in 'spiders web' type fashion.
>
>Now here comes the fun bit, sticking my neck out...
>
>* We could provision each site with a pair of BT POTS lines both with
>ADSL Max (1 for data 1 for VOIP). This would also provide each site
>with two POTS phones for emergency backup and FAX.
>
>Now ideally what I would like to purchase would be:
>
>1/ A preconfigured VOIP 'box' + 10 handsets + Cables
>
>[I would be quite happy to run pairs of cables, 1 for phone, one for
>co-located PC but a real BONUS would be if I could plug our router
>into 'VOIPbox' and plug the PC's 'into the back of the phones' so to
>speak]
One other thing I haven't seen mention in this thread is power over
ethernet.. It's probably not applicable in your case (can add ~£300 or
more to the install), but remember that each phone then needs a mains
socket to plug it's PSU into, so you'll want a 4-way at each desk,
maybe more - PC, Monitor, Phone, desk lamp, mobile charger, etc...
>2/ A Monthly contract (From somebody like Gradwell which would give me
>'free' 01, 02, 03 numbers for a fixed monthly fee + 10p/min to
>Mobiles).
>
>Woo Hoo a totally ADSL/Voip/SIP solution -
>
>Does the above sound reckless ?
No.... As long as you have a good and reliable ADSL connection then it's
easilly achievable. And with a "VOIP Box" in each office, then inter
office calls are on-course free. VoIP box could optionally have analog
ports to connect to the POTS lines to make outgoing calls in the event
of total ADSL failure, and similarly, the supplier of 2/ ought to be
able to dial the POTS lines automatically if it can't make a VoIP call
to the local VoIP box.
As you have 2 ADSL connections, then you do need a little bit of care to
run them both on the same physical LAN, but it's not impossible.
Without additional hardware, (ie. a 3rd router with 3 Ethernet ports),
I'd suggest having each ADSL router with it's own subnet, and using
DHCP for all the office PCs on one network, and statically configuring
the VoIP PBX and phones on the other network. Then they'll both work
together. There are ways to run them all on the same subnet too by having
different default routes for different devices and you may even be able
to control this from your DHCP server if it's something other than what's
in the ADSL routers, but it starts to get "hairy" at that point!
You might even be able to do it with 2 routers which support VRRP but
that might well push the budget over the limit, and you are trying to
save money!
You could relatively easilly put in the 3rd router at a later date,
if required, and with additional hardware you can have everything on
one LAN with it auto routing the VoIP stuff down one ADSL connection
and normal internetty stuff down the other, and it can (in some cases)
even do fall-over to route all traffic down one line should the other
fail for whatever reason.
[vbcol=seagreen]
Without wishing to incur the wrath of being accused of advertising on
this group..... Me. I can do 2 too, and advise on point 0 - your ADSL
supplier, oh, and -1 FAX to email, but sometimes there no substitute
for a real bit of paper!
Gordon
--
http://www.drogon.net/
| |
| relaxandchillout@gmail.com 2007-08-07, 1:11 pm |
| On Aug 7, 3:39 pm, Gordon Henderson <gordon+use...@drogon.net> wrote:
> In article <1186490475.026207.47...@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com>,
>
>
>
> <relaxandchill...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
er[vbcol=seagreen]
e=2E[vbcol=seagreen]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> One other thing I haven't seen mention in this thread is power over
> ethernet.. It's probably not applicable in your case (can add ~=A3300 or
> more to the install), but remember that each phone then needs a mains
> socket to plug it's PSU into, so you'll want a 4-way at each desk,
> maybe more - PC, Monitor, Phone, desk lamp, mobile charger, etc...
>
>
>
>
> No.... As long as you have a good and reliable ADSL connection then it's
> easilly achievable. And with a "VOIP Box" in each office, then inter
> office calls are on-course free. VoIP box could optionally have analog
> ports to connect to the POTS lines to make outgoing calls in the event
> of total ADSL failure, and similarly, the supplier of 2/ ought to be
> able to dial the POTS lines automatically if it can't make a VoIP call
> to the local VoIP box.
>
> As you have 2 ADSL connections, then you do need a little bit of care to
> run them both on the same physical LAN, but it's not impossible.
>
> Without additional hardware, (ie. a 3rd router with 3 Ethernet ports),
> I'd suggest having each ADSL router with it's own subnet, and using
> DHCP for all the office PCs on one network, and statically configuring
> the VoIP PBX and phones on the other network. Then they'll both work
> together. There are ways to run them all on the same subnet too by having
> different default routes for different devices and you may even be able
> to control this from your DHCP server if it's something other than what's
> in the ADSL routers, but it starts to get "hairy" at that point!
>
> You might even be able to do it with 2 routers which support VRRP but
> that might well push the budget over the limit, and you are trying to
> save money!
>
> You could relatively easilly put in the 3rd router at a later date,
> if required, and with additional hardware you can have everything on
> one LAN with it auto routing the VoIP stuff down one ADSL connection
> and normal internetty stuff down the other, and it can (in some cases)
> even do fall-over to route all traffic down one line should the other
> fail for whatever reason.
>
>
> Without wishing to incur the wrath of being accused of advertising on
> this group..... Me. I can do 2 too, and advise on point 0 - your ADSL
> supplier, oh, and -1 FAX to email, but sometimes there no substitute
> for a real bit of paper!
>
> Gordon
> --http://www.drogon.net/
Thanks,
To save the wrath of the net police anyone else feel free to email me
with sales blurb....
| |
|
| relaxandchillout@gmail.com wrote:
> * We could provision each site with a pair of BT POTS lines both with
> ADSL Max (1 for data 1 for VOIP). This would also provide each site
> with two POTS phones for emergency backup and FAX.
And a PDQ (credit card) machine if you have one.
>
> Now ideally what I would like to purchase would be:
>
> 1/ A preconfigured VOIP 'box' + 10 handsets + Cables
You want an IP PBX that can connect to 2 analogue lines.
With installation?
Do you require somebody you can ring up when you can't get it to work
how you like it.
> [I would be quite happy to run pairs of cables, 1 for phone, one for
> co-located PC but a real BONUS would be if I could plug our router
> into 'VOIPbox' and plug the PC's 'into the back of the phones' so to
> speak]
Use Snom phones, and this is no problem.
> 2/ A Monthly contract (From somebody like Gradwell which would give me
> 'free' 01, 02, 03 numbers for a fixed monthly fee + 10p/min to
> Mobiles).
Do this bit yourself. You'll want some incoming numbers too.
>
> Does the above sound reckless ?
Go for it.
[vbcol=seagreen]
You want one of these:
http://www.provu.co.uk/protalk_16.html
Comes in either an ISDN or an analogue line version.
Although, consider whether just a hosted provider is enough for you.
Tim
| |
| Andy Davidson 2007-08-16, 1:11 pm |
| On 05 Aug 2007 13:32:35 +0100 (BST), Theo Markettos wrote:
> I've heard that said before, and I don't quite understand. Most inbound
> non-VOIP traffic is TCP. Why can't the router drop some packets in a TCP
> stream, which will cause TCP windowing in the sender to think there's
> network congestion and back off a bit?
This is close to what 'Random Early Detection' does, if you want to actually
try it out.
http://www.cisco.com/warp/public/732/Tech/red/
--
rgds, Andy Davidson Freelance keyboard jockey
www.andyd.net
| |
|
| Andy Davidson wrote:
> On 05 Aug 2007 13:32:35 +0100 (BST), Theo Markettos wrote:
Yes, that does work. Best done neatly, a al RED:
[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> This is close to what 'Random Early Detection' does, if you want to actually
> try it out.
>
> http://www.cisco.com/warp/public/732/Tech/red/
Also, you can use ECN as well. Explicit Congestion Notification.
Basically, tell a TCP sender to slow down a bit.
Tim
| |
| Andy Davidson 2007-08-16, 1:11 pm |
| On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 17:51:37 +0100, Tim wrote:
> Andy Davidson wrote:
> Also, you can use ECN as well. Explicit Congestion Notification.
> Basically, tell a TCP sender to slow down a bit.
Does this work ? I remember when the Linux Kernel got ecn support, and
lots and lots of networks and services were unreachable if you turned it
on !
I realise that I am remembering something from '02 or earlier, perhaps
things are more stable now.
--
rgds, Andy Davidson Freelance keyboard jockey
www.andyd.net
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