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Re: Debian needs more buildds. It has offers. They aren't being accepted.
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| John Hasler 2004-02-10, 4:34 am |
| John Goerzen writes:
> Could we please stop using IRC nicks in e-mail, or at least indicate the
> real name of the persom mentioned? I find it difficult to mentally map
> IRC nicks to real names in an e-mail conversation.
And it's more difficult yet for those of us who don't do IRC.
--
John Hasler
john@dhh.gt.org (John Hasler)
Dancing Horse Hill
Elmwood, WI
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| Francesco P. Lovergine 2004-02-10, 4:35 am |
| On Tue, Feb 10, 2004 at 10:34:35AM -0600, John Hasler wrote:
> John Goerzen writes:
>
> And it's more difficult yet for those of us who don't do IRC.
Nicknames are generally listed on db.d.o. Anyway, you are right, it's a
bad habit.
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| Nathanael Nerode 2004-02-10, 2:34 pm |
| Goswin von Brederlow wrote:
> Ben Collins <bcollins@debian.org> writes:
>
>
>
>
> If they don't have enough time, _and_ _they_ _don't_, they should give
> up some easy jobs like handling the wanna-build.
>
> Or just accept the offered buildd and admin for the mips/mipsel archs
> so Ryan has less work there. But the offer of mips/mipsel buildds has
> been refused and getting wanna-build access takes ages.
This is precisely the problem. Now that is not vague, is it?
> The
> "doorstopper" arch m68k had buildds idling, and still has, because
> they can't get the list of packages that need to be build.
>
> Some more background: m68k had its own wanna-build but was asked to
> join the global one. Now there is serious talk about going back to
> using our own wanna-build again because the situation is to disruptive
> to the m68k port. Lets take a bleak look: What would we do if a system
> got broken into and needs to be excluded again? Have some hacker have
> access to wanna-build for 2 weeks while we scream at james to exclude
> it?
>
> Also 79 packages where held out of sarge because qt-x11-free didn't
> get build by the mipsel buildd the last 4 weeks. And the only reason
> the problem is solved is that I build it manualy and got a binary NMU
> sponsored for it. No reply from Ryan why it wasn't build or that he
> would even look into it.
>
> I don't think Nathanael wants to get James and Ryan replaced on the
> more important/security problematic jobs but get them to delegate the
> easy ones.
Quite right.
Perhaps I could restate my complaint as follows:
Delegates in "bottleneck" positions, whatever they may be, should not be
preventing much-needed and already-offered improvements in the mips,
mipsel, and m68k buildd systems. Currently they *are*. This is, as I
said before, unacceptable. As far as I can tell, only the DPL has
authority to do anything about it.
> If you want more info on the complains ask IJ or read the irc logs of
> debian-devel. TBM should be aware enough of the problems since he was
> asked often enough on irc about its status.
>
> MfG
> Goswin
Thank you for explaining this so much more cogently than I did.
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| Florent Rougon 2004-02-11, 12:34 am |
| Martin Pitt <martin@piware.de> wrote:
> Right, it may be subjective; according to my subjective feeling I
> found AJ's answer appropriate, and calling people idiots not.
[...]
> I will certainly get impatient and upset, but you will not find me
> calling Anthony, Nathanael, you, or anybody else an idiot.
[...]
> So what can be done about this? Calling people idiots will only help
> to destroy your credibility and reputation, so IMHO is not an option.
whereas the actual quote is:
You have several choices if you want to argue with me intelligently,
rather than *acting like* an idiot (of course, you're free to continue
to *act like* an idiot):
[emphasis is mine]
If you cannot grasp the difference between what Nathanael wrote and what
you claimed multiple times that he wrote, I am sorry for you.
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| Manoj Srivastava 2004-02-11, 1:34 pm |
| On 11 Feb 2004 13:43:44 +0100, Goswin von Brederlow <brederlo@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> said:
[color=blue]
> Also he is a user so you are working FOR HIM. You should jump at any
> wish he has little geene. 
This is not mean mode, this is moronic mode. This is the same
idiotic argument as the police are working for taxpayers, I am a
taxpayer, so the police officer must do as I tell him. (Oh, ;-), as
if that makes a difference).
manoj
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| Tim Dijkstra 2004-02-11, 8:33 pm |
| On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 16:52:47 +1000
Anthony Towns <aj@azure.humbug.org.au> wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 12, 2004 at 04:08:23AM +0100, Goswin von Brederlow wrote:
>
> The people who get to decided whether the help is useful or not are
> the ones doing the job, not the ones offering the help.
These people do not 'own' these jobs, do they? I would say that debian
as a project should decide if help is needed or not. Based on some
objective measure of 'doing the job' of course. Sometimes it can be
really obvious to his peers that somebody is swamped in work, but the
person can't see this. I'm not saying that this is what's happening
here. I'm just saying that in a big project it shouldn't be the just guy
doing the job who decides if he's doing a good job.
grts Tim
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| Manoj Srivastava 2004-02-11, 9:33 pm |
| On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 10:23:52 +0100, Tim Dijkstra <newsuser@famdijkstra.org> said:
> On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 16:52:47 +1000
> Anthony Towns <aj@azure.humbug.org.au> wrote:
[color=blue]
> These people do not 'own' these jobs, do they? I would say that
No. But they are often in the best position to udge what
exactly is needed,and what the problems are.
> debian as a project should decide if help is needed or not. Based on
Debian as a project should decide? Rule by committee,
especially when most of the committee is not doing the work,
is rarely a good idea.
> some objective measure of 'doing the job' of course. Sometimes it
> can be really obvious to his peers that somebody is swamped in work,
> but the person can't see this. I'm not saying that this is what's
One can't see when one is swamped with work? I'm sorry, this
does not gibe with my experience.
> happening here. I'm just saying that in a big project it shouldn't
> be the just guy doing the job who decides if he's doing a good job.
By the gripping hand, nagging at volunteers, and trying to get
them replaced, when coming from idle bystanders, is also not how
things get done.
manoj
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| Manoj Srivastava 2004-02-11, 9:33 pm |
| On 12 Feb 2004 05:16:34 +0100, Goswin von Brederlow <brederlo@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> said:
> Manoj Srivastava <srivasta@debian.org> writes:
========================================
==============================[color=blu
e]
> Debian Social Contract:
> 4. Our Priorities are Our Users and Free Software
> We will be guided by the needs of our users and the free-software
> community. We will place their interests first in our priorities. We
> will support the needs of our users for operation in many different
> kinds of computing environment. ...
========================================
==============================
> For me that basically means you (and I since I already agreed to it)
> "work for" the user.
This is an appalling breakdown in simple logic. Please allow
me to demonstrate: A parent has the best interest of their children
at heart, but that does not mean when the child says I want to only
eat ice cream and candy, the parent jumps at this wish expressed by
the child.
In any case, even if you do feel compelled to work for the
user, instead of keeping their best interest at heart (to the
detriment of the project, in my opinion), it is highly presumptuous
on your part to project that expectation on to me.
> But opinions are like assholes, everyone got one. No point dragging
> this out.
Ultimately, however, only the opinion of the person
responsible for the work being done really counts. This is how
Debian has always worked, and I am unwilling to change a working
model based a new broom trying to sweep clean.
manoj
--
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and some of the people all of the time, but you Can't Fool Mom.
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| Manoj Srivastava 2004-02-11, 10:33 pm |
| On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 00:22:23 -0600, Chris Cheney <ccheney@cheney.cx> said:
> Even if you are a DD unless you are in the cabal don't bet on
> getting anything changed.
Ah, conspiracy theories.
One of the assets useful in a large organization like Debian
is the ability (tact, communications skills) to be able to get other
people to do things for you -- even things that are nominally on
their plate. Add to the mix that most of the people doing much more
that take care of their own packages are overworked volunteers,
rarely appreciated, may have large egos, and conflicting constraints
on their time, it becomes really handy if you can approach them as
friends, and not as flunkies one make demands of, or with downright
hostility, like the above post.
I can honestly say that in my 8+ years in the project, I have
seen no concrete evidence of a cabal _or_ of black helicopters (well,
apart from one flight op)
manoj
--
Gerrold's Laws of Infernal Dynamics: An object in motion will always
be headed in the wrong direction. An object at rest will always be in
the wrong place. The energy required to change either one of these
states will always be more than you wish to expend, but never so much
as to make the task totally impossible.
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| Tim Dijkstra 2004-02-11, 10:33 pm |
| On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 12:09:07 +0100
Wouter Verhelst <wouter@grep.be> wrote:
> Op do 12-02-2004, om 10:23 schreef Tim Dijkstra:
>
> More or less, yeah, they do. If you're doing the work, you don't want
> others to stand in your way because, hey, you don't "own" it, and they
> want to be part of it too.
That's not what I'm saying ... If something is going wrong, other people
in the project see that, then they should be allowed to help, shouldn't
they. (This under assumption there's something they can help with)
>
> Hah.
>
> That would probably just result in a lot of bickering, flaming, and no
> actual work being done.
Well not the whole organisation maybe, but at least some more people
then only the guy in question.
>
> That's too vague. If you're really serious about this, work it out
> first before suggesting it.
It was meant to be abstract. My point was that [I think that] an
organisation can't work if the only people judging somebodies
work are the people themselves.
grts Tim
Disclaimer: I'm not saying the above applies to the topic in the
subject, I don't know enough about it. I'm just reacting to the
statement that people doing a certain job in the project are the only
ones who can judge they need help with that job.
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| Manoj Srivastava 2004-02-11, 11:34 pm |
| On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 12:13:17 +0100, Ingo Juergensmann <ij@2004.bluespice.org> said:
> On Thu, Feb 12, 2004 at 04:55:53PM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote:
[color=blue]
> Then please tell us what Goswin can do to pass n-m?
Convince the DAM of his worthiness?
manoj
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| Manoj Srivastava 2004-02-11, 11:34 pm |
| On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 22:18:14 +1100, Matthew Palmer <mpalmer@debian.org> said:
> On Thu, Feb 12, 2004 at 04:35:53AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
[color=blue]
> Hang on, you're saying that Nathanel is an idle bystander? I think
Yes, I am. If he is not working as a apprentice RM, he is an
idle bystander. As am I. As are you. People who genuinely cared to
relieve AJ's load volunteered to help take off some of the tasks of
the RM, learning the ropes as they went.
> you need to wander around the l.d.o archives for a bit. He knows
> and does a hell of a lot more than some DDs. He's active in QA, RM,
So what?
> and d-legal. Calling him an "idle bystander" because he doesn't
> have his key in the debian keyring is incredibly cruel to
> Nathanael's contributions to the Project.
What's with people jumping to illogical conclusions today?
You seem to have the bee in your bonnet that somehow there is a war
between DD's and non-DD's -- and this is not condusive to running the
project smoothly.
Lose the chip on your shoulder, and come to this discussion
using logic, not emotions.
> As for the other people involved in this discussion, by all
> appearances none of the key figures are "idle bystanders" - they're
> all people who are trying to get things done, and one way or another
> the work is not getting done.
If they are not working as apprentice RM's they are idle
bystanders when it comes to nagging AJ. (And, analogously, for other
positions).
> I think you are being overly dismissive of the contributions of
> those who do not have the hallowed debian.org e-mail address. No
> wonder people are so desperate to get accounts - when they're
> stymied at every turn by existing developers, dismissed with insults
> and unwarranted criticism.
I think you are being overly combative, and seem to be working
from a weird feeling of insecurity, or something. When you have
gotten it out of your system that I have some strange adulation for a
@d.o email address, you can come back and re-engage me in
conversation.
> It saddens me that, even here, we can't deal with people on the
> basis of merit, and instead form our cliques and shun outsiders.
Merit is hard t gauge. Contribution is not. I deal with people
on the basis of "show me the code", and past and present
contribution to the task.
manoj
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| Manoj Srivastava 2004-02-12, 2:35 am |
| On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 13:57:19 +0000, Colin Watson <cjwatson@debian.org> said:
> On Thu, Feb 12, 2004 at 05:59:35AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
[color=blue]
> Nathanael has been doing exactly that, as far as I can tell (as one
> of those assistants). I've found his mails to -release helpful, and
> I know aj's acted on a number of his suggestions.
Ah. In which case it would be wrong of me to criticize his
comments on the RM process (though I would hope that his work would
lead him to channels more conducive to fruition than a diatribe on
-devel).
However, seems to me that the criticism was levelled at DSA
and the buildd-admin folks; in which case all of us not working on
those tasks would be bystanders.
I should note that Ingo ought not to be considered a
bystander, seeing that he is indeed involved in adminning a potential
buildd machine.
I don't consider asking for people to be replaced, as opposed
to bringing the issues of concern to the attention of the DPL and
other interested parties in a _friendly_ manner, to be very
productive.
manoj
--
"He goes on about the wailing and gnashing of teeth. It comes in one
verse after another, and it is quite manifest to the reader that there
is a certain pleasure in contemplating the wailing and gnashing of
teeth, or else it would not occur so often." Bertrand Russell, "Why I
Am Not a Christian"
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| Manoj Srivastava 2004-02-12, 9:34 am |
| On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 08:14:01 +1100, Matthew Palmer <mpalmer@debian.org> said:
> On Thu, Feb 12, 2004 at 10:16:38PM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote:
[color=blue]
> So I take it you'd support zero-day NMUs for jobs in Debian where
> there are release critical bugs in the work being done?
> (Let's see what I can catch myself with that one)
Very clever. What you have caught yourself, from my
perspective, is dislike. I fail to see how you can find that
productive; I certainly think that clever bvarbs introducing friction
don't tend to lead us anywhere.
manoj
--
Q: How does a hacker fix a function which doesn't work for all of the
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| Manoj Srivastava 2004-02-12, 9:34 am |
| On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 14:23:05 -0600, Chris Cheney <ccheney@cheney.cx> said:
> On Fri, Feb 13, 2004 at 01:01:49AM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote:
[color=blue]
> Its hardly unexpected given the communication skills the people he
> spoke of have, iow NONE AT ALL. After Martin finaly broke down and
> broke his apparent vow of silence several things are much more
> clear, it shouldn't have taken the DPL to explain what is going on.
Vow of silence? If I was looking for poor communications
skills, the hostility of this email would be a good place to start.
manoj
--
I love you, not only for what you are, but for what I am when I am
with you. Roy Croft
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| Manoj Srivastava 2004-02-12, 9:34 am |
| On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 21:13:56 +0000, Will Newton <will@misconception.org.uk> said:
> On Thursday 12 Feb 2004 8:14 pm, Scott James Remnant wrote:
[color=blue]
> Well it's one hypothesis. Hardly from the horses mouth though.
> The situation at present is that we have people trying to interpret
> what may have happened or what perceived slight their may have been
> whilst the people in question can't even be bothered to explain
> their positions.
> It's a recurring theme isn't it?
What, silence in face of hostility? I am not sure I blame him.
manoj
--
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appendix. Do not suture until your work has been inspected. (You
have 15 minutes.) HISTORY Describe the history of the papacy from its
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exclusively, on its social, political, economic, religious and
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brief, concise, and specific. BIOLOGY Create life. Estimate the
differences in subsequent human culture if this form of life had been
created 500 million years ago or earlier, with special attention to
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| Manoj Srivastava 2004-02-12, 9:34 am |
| On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 14:40:31 -0600, Chris Cheney <ccheney@cheney.cx> said:
> On Thu, Feb 12, 2004 at 04:58:52AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
[color=blue]
> You very well know what I am talking about...
No, I really don't. I've hear this mess of innuendo about a
cabal before, usually vague enough fud that it is hard to refuute
logically.
> The people in the project that have priviledged positions that other
priviledged positions? What privilege? The honour of working
harder than most people for absolutely no recognition?
> DD's can't replace even if they can do a better job. Those same
If there was indeed someone doing a better job, they would
find that they are now a in a position of privilege, to be
vilified as a member of the cabal.
> people also seem to never communicate with anyone, except maybe
> other "cabal" members?
Yep. More conspiracy theories.
manoj
--
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| Mathieu Roy 2004-02-13, 8:33 pm |
| Anthony Towns <aj@azure.humbug.org.au> wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 13, 2004 at 08:08:11AM -0600, John Goerzen wrote:
>
> The only people who have any say in how Debian acts is Debian members,
> and the people they as individuals listen to.
http://www.debian.org/social_contract
Our Priorities are Our Users and Free Software
We will be guided by the needs of our users and the free-software
community. We will place their interests first in our priorities.
How can you say you will place interest of people not having any say
in how Debian acts first in your priorities?
Please, amend the Debian social contract, if it does not reflect
reality.
> It's inappropriate for a non-developer to upload debs to the archive too,
> even if that's the exact same package that a developer might upload. Your
> reasoning above isn't valid;
Is there no difference between altering the content of Debian and
expressing a point of view about how Debian works?
> even when we're interested in non-developers views
> generally.
This means in plain text: we are not interested in non-developers view
here. Please, amend the Debian social contract, if it does not reflect
reality.
--
Mathieu Roy
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| Mathieu Roy 2004-02-14, 1:34 am |
| Wouter Verhelst <wouter@grep.be> wrote:
> Op za 14-02-2004, om 10:44 schreef Mathieu Roy:
>
> "We will be *guided* by the needs of our users [...]" (emphasis mine,
> but you probably saw that already). That doesn't mean "we'll jump at
> their every whim", or even "we'll do whatever our users tell us to do".
Please, use quotes when it is appropriate -- when you are truly
quoting.
I said enough, you are not forced to forge quotations to describe what
I think.
> It means we'll listen to them,
[...]
> It does, but your interpretation of it doesn't.
Unfortunately, you share my interpretation.
I said that users should have a say: it means Debian will listen to
users.
Naturally, you missed that when you were creating quotations.
Apart from that, anybody have a say on how others acts, unless you
live under a dictatorship.
--
Mathieu Roy
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| Manoj Srivastava 2004-02-21, 10:33 am |
| On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 16:40:49 +0000, Will Newton <will@misconception.org.uk> said:
> We MAY reject for:
> - Poor quality of technical skills
> - Lack of agreement with Debian principles
> We WILL NOT reject for:
> - Political opinions
Eh? Some would say that agreeing to the social contract and
the DFSG is, in itself, a political statement; and we do reject
people whose political beliefs run contrary to the social contract.
manoj
--
Article the Third: Where a crime of the kidneys has been committed,
the accused should enjoy the right to a speedy diaper change. Public
announcements and guided tours of the aforementioned are not
necessary. Article the Fourth: The decision to eat strained lamb or
not should be with the "feedee" and not the "feeder". Blowing the
strained lamb into the feeder's face should be accepted as an opinion,
not as a declaration of war. Article the Fifth: Babies should enjoy
the freedom to vocalize, whether it be in church, a public meeting
place, during a movie, or after hours when the lights are out. They
have not yet learned that joy and laughter have to last a lifetime and
must be conserved. Erma Bombeck, "A Baby's Bill of Rights"
Manoj Srivastava <srivasta@debian.org> <http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/>
1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C
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| Brian Nelson 2004-02-22, 7:33 pm |
| Stephen Frost <sfrost@snowman.net> writes:
> * David Weinehall (tao@acc.umu.se) wrote:
>
> No. There's alot more to it than what the AM does, as is obvious when
> you look at the AM templates and then consider what people tend to get
> rejected by the DAM for. The AMs do a pretty good job and handle alot
> of the 'easier' questions for the AM report but the DAM has to look at
> more than just the report for each applicant.
If an AM is doing nothing more than using the NM templates and
processing the applicant's answers, then that AM is not doing a good
job. An AM should do a thorough background check of the applicant,
including mailing list activity, BTS usage (both bug response time and
resolve time), package upload frequency, and relationships with
developers (particularly sponsors).
There's no reason any of these checks should be the DAM's
responsibility. And people wonder why the NM queue tends to be
processed so slowly...
--
Don't worry, it's *in*-flammable.
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| Manoj Srivastava 2004-02-24, 12:33 am |
| On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 19:27:43 +0000, Will Newton <will@misconception.org.uk> said:
> On Monday 23 Feb 2004 1:02 am, Martin Michlmayr wrote:
[color=blue]
> How was this system arrived at?
We just made it up, and it sounded about right?
manoj
--
What a bonanza! An unknown beginner to be directed by Lubitsch, in a
script by Wilder and Brackett, and to play with Paramount's two
superstars, Gary Cooper and Claudette Colbert, and to be beaten up by
both of them! David Niven, "Bring On the Empty Horses"
Manoj Srivastava <srivasta@debian.org> <http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/>
1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C
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