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more overly-generic package names from gnustep
|
|
| Miles Bader 2004-03-21, 8:33 pm |
| I see there's some new gnustep packages with overly-generic names.
Is there a reason why these aren't all prefixed with `gnustep-' or `gs-'
or something?
Can someone remind me of the result of the last time this was argued
about?
[A quick list of offending (IMHO) packages:
viewpdf
textedit
terminal
preferences
imageviewer
clipbook
camera
addressmanager
]
Thanks,
-Miles
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| Frank Küster 2004-03-22, 5:33 am |
| Miles Bader <miles@lsi.nec.co.jp> schrieb:
> I see there's some new gnustep packages with overly-generic names.
>
> Is there a reason why these aren't all prefixed with `gnustep-' or `gs-'
> or something?
Err, no - please don't use gs. That's ghostscript.
Regards, Frank
--=20
Frank K=FCster, Biozentrum der Univ. Basel
Abt. Biophysikalische Chemie
| |
| Mathieu Roy 2004-03-23, 10:35 am |
| Frank Küster <frank@debian.org> wrote:
> Miles Bader <miles@lsi.nec.co.jp> schrieb:
>
>
> Err, no - please don't use gs. That's ghostscript.
Well, gs is ghostscript. But the proposal is to use gs as prefix, not
as name.
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| Thiemo Seufer 2004-03-23, 10:35 am |
| Mathieu Roy wrote:
> Frank Küster <frank@debian.org> wrote:
>
>
> Well, gs is ghostscript. But the proposal is to use gs as prefix, not
> as name.
Like in:
gs-common
gs-esp
gs-cjk-resource
Thiemo
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| Steve Greenland 2004-03-23, 10:35 am |
| On 23-Mar-04, 07:39 (CST), Mathieu Roy <yeupou@coleumes.org> wrote:
> Frank K?ster <frank@debian.org> wrote:
>
> Well, gs is ghostscript. But the proposal is to use gs as prefix, not
> as name.
His point, with which I agree, is that many people would associate
gs-whatever with ghostscript, not gnustep. Using gstep- is less likely
to be confusing.
Steve
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| Frank Küster 2004-03-23, 10:35 am |
| Mathieu Roy <yeupou@coleumes.org> schrieb:
> Frank K=FCster <frank@debian.org> wrote:
>
>
> Well, gs is ghostscript. But the proposal is to use gs as prefix, not
> as name.
But gs *is* in use as a prefix for gs-related packages:
$ apt-cache --names-only search ^gs-=20
gs - The Ghostscript Postscript interpreter
gs-common - Common files for different Ghostscript releases
gs-esp - The Ghostscript Postscript interpreter - ESP version
gs-aladdin - The Ghostscript Postscript interpreter
gs-cjk-resource - Resource files for gs-cjk, ghostscript CJK-TrueType exten=
sion
I'd recommend not to use this.
Regards, Frank
--=20
Frank K=FCster, Biozentrum der Univ. Basel
Abt. Biophysikalische Chemie
| |
| Lars Wirzenius 2004-03-23, 10:35 am |
| ti, 2004-03-23 kello 15:39, Mathieu Roy kirjoitti:
> Well, gs is ghostscript. But the proposal is to use gs as prefix, not
> as name.
The prefix "gs-" is already being used for Ghostscript related packages:
gs-common, gs-esp, and gs-fonts. Thus "gnustep-" seems like a better
choice for Gnustep related packages. It is also not an acronym of
Gnustep, which means that it is more easily recognizable without having
to know the context.
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| Patrice Fortier 2004-03-23, 10:35 am |
| Le mar 23/03/2004 à 15:15, Thiemo Seufer a écrit :
> Mathieu Roy wrote:
>
> Like in:
> gs-common
> gs-esp
> gs-cjk-resource
which for lot of people will mean ghostscript-common etc.
Is these are gnustep packages, it will be quite disturbing...
Patrice.
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| Miles Bader 2004-03-23, 8:34 pm |
| Frank K=FCster <frank@debian.org> writes:
s-'[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
> But gs *is* in use as a prefix for gs-related packages:
....
> I'd recommend not to use this.
That's fine, `gnustep-' is probably a better prefix anyway (I prefer it).
But what about my original point -- are others also annoyed by this
namespace pollution? Is there any reason not to fix it?
[I'm just waiting for the next gnustep package "application"... :-]
Thanks,
-Miles
--=20
"1971 pickup truck; will trade for guns"
| |
| Ben Burton 2004-03-23, 9:35 pm |
|
> But what about my original point -- are others also annoyed by this
> namespace pollution?
I am also, FWIW.
b.
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| Andreas Barth 2004-03-24, 4:34 am |
| * Miles Bader (miles@lsi.nec.co.jp) [040324 02:25]:
> Frank Küster <frank@debian.org> writes:
[color=darkred]
> ...
[color=darkred]
> But what about my original point -- are others also annoyed by this
> namespace pollution? Is there any reason not to fix it?
You mean: About useing gs for gnustep? Yes, I'm also annoyed about this.
Cheers,
Andi
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| Miles Bader 2004-03-24, 5:34 am |
| Andreas Barth <aba@not.so.argh.org> writes:
>
> You mean: About useing gs for gnustep? Yes, I'm also annoyed about this.
No.
Just forget I ever mentioned `gs-' (`gnustep-' is fine) and go read my
original post: the _existing_ gnustep packages are polluting the
package namespace with overly generic names.
Gah...
-Miles
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| Frank Küster 2004-03-24, 5:34 am |
| Miles Bader <miles@lsi.nec.co.jp> wrote:
> But what about my original point -- are others also annoyed by this
> namespace pollution? Is there any reason not to fix it?
You mean to use "pdfviewer" instead of "gnustep-pdfviewer"? I'm annoyed
by this, yes, at least if it is true that this application cannot be
used without gnustep. If it's just an alternative to xpdf, well, then
the name is kind of silly, but o.k.
Regards, Frank
--=20
Frank K=FCster, Biozentrum der Univ. Basel
Abt. Biophysikalische Chemie
| |
| Paul Seelig 2004-03-24, 7:36 pm |
| miles@lsi.nec.co.jp (Miles Bader) writes:
> But what about my original point -- are others also annoyed by this
> namespace pollution?
>
Care to explain what justifies calling this application naming
namespace *pollution*?
I don't see why this should be considered namespace pollution. Just
because the application name matches a generic term, which still
nobody else has dared to use for naming an application, instead of
using some "creatively" invented name doesn't really strike me as a
problem at all.
Namespace pollution might be a problem with very short names like "mc"
for the Midnight Commander or something similar.
> Is there any reason not to fix it?
>
Naming GNUstep applications the generic way they are currently named
strikes me as very elegant and aesthetically pleasing. This definitely
fits the GNUstep approach and shouldn't be subsequently uglified for
and by Debian maintainers.
So don't even try fixing what is not even remotely broken.
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| Ben Burton 2004-03-24, 9:34 pm |
|
> Naming GNUstep applications the generic way they are currently named
> strikes me as very elegant and aesthetically pleasing. This definitely
> fits the GNUstep approach and shouldn't be subsequently uglified for
> and by Debian maintainers.
Nobody's suggesting renaming the binaries. Just the packages, in order
to make it clearer to users faced with a very large set of choices how
these apps fit into the grander scheme of things.
(Yes, you can read the package description. But with faced with such an
incredibly large number of packages as we have in debian, being able to
gain this information from the package name alone has got to be a help.)
It's quite common to have binary packages given different names from
upstream in order to clarify their role within debian as a whole (the
gtk-engines-* packages are another example that comes to mind). I don't
think this is a particularly controversial suggestion.
Ben.
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| Colin Watson 2004-03-25, 8:39 am |
| On Thu, Mar 25, 2004 at 12:46:33AM +0100, Paul Seelig wrote:
> Naming GNUstep applications the generic way they are currently named
> strikes me as very elegant and aesthetically pleasing. This definitely
> fits the GNUstep approach and shouldn't be subsequently uglified for
> and by Debian maintainers.
>
> So don't even try fixing what is not even remotely broken.
Does that mean that only one project is allowed to be elegant and
aesthetically pleasing? This seems unfortunate.
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| Number Six 2004-03-25, 8:39 am |
| On Thu, Mar 25, 2004 at 01:01:05PM +0000, Colin Watson wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 25, 2004 at 12:46:33AM +0100, Paul Seelig wrote:
> Does that mean that only one project is allowed to be elegant and
> aesthetically pleasing? This seems unfortunate.
I have some recent experience with this: I made my little package called
"pim." Too generic. The solution was to name the package "tupim", the
and install /usr/bin/tupim, /usr/share/man/man1/tupim.1, and symlink
pim -> tupim, pim.1 -> tupim.1, unless there is already a file by that
name present.
Since the realty is that a naming conflict is unlikely and that indeed
only one project *will* be elegant and aesthetically pleasing (but any
is *allowed* to be), everybody wins.
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| Colin Watson 2004-03-25, 8:39 am |
| On Thu, Mar 25, 2004 at 05:14:38AM -0800, Number Six wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 25, 2004 at 01:01:05PM +0000, Colin Watson wrote:
>
> I have some recent experience with this: I made my little package called
> "pim." Too generic. The solution was to name the package "tupim", the
> and install /usr/bin/tupim, /usr/share/man/man1/tupim.1, and symlink
> pim -> tupim, pim.1 -> tupim.1, unless there is already a file by that
> name present.
Ew! What happens when a package called 'pim' is installed after yours,
rather than before?
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| Number Six 2004-03-25, 8:39 am |
| On Thu, Mar 25, 2004 at 01:22:43PM +0000, Colin Watson wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 25, 2004 at 05:14:38AM -0800, Number Six wrote:
>
> Ew! What happens when a package called 'pim' is installed after yours,
> rather than before?
The desired behavior, no? Their 'pim' is called up instead of mine, and
mine can be still launched by 'tupim'. Munge the symlink as desired.
(Although I really should be using a proper /etc/alternatives instead of
manually doing the symlink. I'll start doing that.)
But if the guy installs a *binary* named pim, well, then we just can't
coexist, or my app can no longer by referred to by its generic name, but
only by it's specific name. Isn't that acceptible? His app will just
clobber my symlink.
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| Colin Watson 2004-03-25, 9:46 am |
| On Thu, Mar 25, 2004 at 05:31:28AM -0800, Number Six wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 25, 2004 at 01:22:43PM +0000, Colin Watson wrote:
>
> The desired behavior, no? Their 'pim' is called up instead of mine, and
> mine can be still launched by 'tupim'. Munge the symlink as desired.
>
> (Although I really should be using a proper /etc/alternatives instead of
> manually doing the symlink. I'll start doing that.)
>
> But if the guy installs a *binary* named pim, well, then we just can't
> coexist, or my app can no longer by referred to by its generic name, but
> only by it's specific name. Isn't that acceptible? His app will just
> clobber my symlink.
No, it won't clobber the symlink. dpkg will crash out and refuse to
install his package.
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| Number Six 2004-03-25, 9:46 am |
| On Thu, Mar 25, 2004 at 01:54:34PM +0000, Colin Watson wrote:
> No, it won't clobber the symlink. dpkg will crash out and refuse to
> install his package.
Which is exactly what would happen if his app was named "tupim." And we
would file a bug against his generic packag pim to start using the
/etc/alternatives/pim as well, because *he* is at fault for insisting on
the generic name, and I am trying to coexist.
If *I* shouldn't be insisting a generic name than neither should he.
If the bug is not resolved / won't be fixed, I mark my package as
Conflicts: JerksPIM and life moves on.
Since it's a mere accident that people think "pim" is generic and
"tupim" is not, writing some sort of coexistence policy in cases where
two or more people wish to use a name and requiring both to also use an
alternate name as well seems the only fair thing.
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| Colin Watson 2004-03-25, 9:46 am |
| On Thu, Mar 25, 2004 at 06:10:25AM -0800, Number Six wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 25, 2004 at 01:54:34PM +0000, Colin Watson wrote:
>
> Which is exactly what would happen if his app was named "tupim." And we
> would file a bug against his generic packag pim to start using the
> /etc/alternatives/pim as well, because *he* is at fault for insisting on
> the generic name, and I am trying to coexist.
>
> If *I* shouldn't be insisting a generic name than neither should he.
> If the bug is not resolved / won't be fixed, I mark my package as
> Conflicts: JerksPIM and life moves on.
>
> Since it's a mere accident that people think "pim" is generic and
> "tupim" is not, writing some sort of coexistence policy in cases where
> two or more people wish to use a name and requiring both to also use an
> alternate name as well seems the only fair thing.
We already have one of those: see policy 10.1. I think using this
symlink in the way you originally proposed is not much different from
claiming the name in the first place. Creating the symlink in the
postinst when it doesn't exist is failure-prone, unpredictable, and
makes it harder for the file conflict to be automatically detected.
I don't object to using alternatives, though (which I've just noticed
you said you were going to start doing); that makes it reasonable.
Cheers,
--
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| Paul Seelig 2004-03-25, 9:46 am |
| cjwatson@debian.org (Colin Watson) writes:
> On Thu, Mar 25, 2004 at 12:46:33AM +0100, Paul Seelig wrote:
>
> Does that mean that only one project is allowed to be elegant and
> aesthetically pleasing? This seems unfortunate.
>
So the alternative so far is only to allow *no package at all* to be
named in an elegant and aesthetically pleasing way? There can only be
one for each name - be it a generic term or an invented name. Why not
allow this opportunity to those who are first?
Strikes me as being rather silly to disallow this just only because
not everyone can have the same possibility (which BTW is also valid
for *any* other name, like the mozilla-phoenix|firebird|firefox case
has shown).
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| Number Six 2004-03-25, 10:34 am |
| On Thu, Mar 25, 2004 at 02:35:16PM +0000, Colin Watson wrote:
> I don't object to using alternatives, though (which I've just noticed
> you said you were going to start doing); that makes it reasonable.
Ah, that's a comfort. I do it via dh_link now, which will break as you
described. Therefore the alternatives for GNUSteps apps "viewpdf" &c.
are (1) give them the names, (2) deny them the names, (3) give them the
names now and make them use alternatives if people complain in future,
(4) make them use alternatives now.
I'm going to do (4).
Thanks Colin!
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| Number Six 2004-03-25, 10:34 am |
| On Thu, Mar 25, 2004 at 03:42:31PM +0100, Paul Seelig wrote:
> cjwatson@debian.org (Colin Watson) writes:
>
> So the alternative so far is only to allow *no package at all* to be
> named in an elegant and aesthetically pleasing way? There can only be
> one for each name - be it a generic term or an invented name. Why not
> allow this opportunity to those who are first?
The problem is this will be deemed fair unfairly. People with
reputations who land-grab will just take it. People like me, newcomers,
who want pim, will be told to go suck eggs.
I'm going to put a stick in the ground with /usr/bin/tupim and
/etc/alternatives/pim, and if GNUStep wants to provide a PIM and take
over /etc/alternatives/pim -- that's fine with me, as long as I can
change it back. Similarly for "viewpdf" etc.
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| Andreas Metzler 2004-03-25, 10:34 am |
| Colin Watson <cjwatson@debian.org> wrote:
[...]
> I don't object to using alternatives, though (which I've just noticed
> you said you were going to start doing); that makes it reasonable.
[...]
Depends. alternatives are only sensible if the commandline interface
is largely compatible between two programs offering the alternative.
(If the command line interface is basically nonexisting, as for many
GUI programs this is not an issue.)
cu andreas
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| Number Six 2004-03-25, 10:34 am |
| On Thu, Mar 25, 2004 at 03:47:05PM +0100, Andreas Metzler wrote:
> Colin Watson <cjwatson@debian.org> wrote:
> [...]
> [...]
>
> Depends. alternatives are only sensible if the commandline interface
> is largely compatible between two programs offering the alternative.
> (If the command line interface is basically nonexisting, as for many
> GUI programs this is not an issue.)
My app is a GUI program which accepts a single command line argument --
the name of the schema and thus the task to perform. I name my schemas
with single letters.
Thus:
'pim d' -- edit my todo/list, account list, most stuff
'pim c' -- record a credit card receipt
'pim m' -- search my .flac collection
'pim w' -- record the calories of whatever I just ate
'pim r' -- edit my resume as xml, which I then process into a msword
document.
The reason I wrote the application instead of using one of the 4000
programs in Debian is because it launches quickly and behaves exactly as
I wish. I use fluxbox and 4 gnome terminals: I do use Fluxbox's menu
launcher nor do I use a graphical program launcher. It is much more
convenient for me to launch 'pim c' instead of 'tupim c' -- 2 fewer
keystrokes. I launch the program dozens of times per day.
Thus, an GUI app for which its nice to use a generic name.
What about Imagemagick's "display" ?
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| Colin Watson 2004-03-25, 10:34 am |
| On Thu, Mar 25, 2004 at 07:19:18AM -0800, Number Six wrote:
> It is much more convenient for me to launch 'pim c' instead of 'tupim
> c' -- 2 fewer keystrokes. I launch the program dozens of times per
> day.
I have 'm' aliased to 'mutt'. That doesn't mean I want the Debian
package to install a symlink for me.
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| Matt Zimmerman 2004-03-25, 11:35 am |
| On Thu, Mar 25, 2004 at 07:19:18AM -0800, Number Six wrote:
> It is much more convenient for me to launch 'pim c' instead of 'tupim c'
> -- 2 fewer keystrokes.
There are a wide variety of ways for you to achieve the same result without
using the very generic name 'pim' for the name of the program.
--
- mdz
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| Matthew Garrett 2004-03-25, 11:35 am |
| T. B. Falsename wrote:
>I'm going to put a stick in the ground with /usr/bin/tupim and
>/etc/alternatives/pim, and if GNUStep wants to provide a PIM and take
>over /etc/alternatives/pim -- that's fine with me, as long as I can
>change it back. Similarly for "viewpdf" etc.
Shell aliases are wonderful things. Two programs that both happen to be
pims but which are otherwise entirely different shouldn't be handled via
alternatives.
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| Frank Küster 2004-03-25, 11:35 am |
| Paul Seelig <pseelig@uni-mainz.de> schrieb:
> cjwatson@debian.org (Colin Watson) writes:
>
> So the alternative so far is only to allow *no package at all* to be
> named in an elegant and aesthetically pleasing way? There can only be
> one for each name - be it a generic term or an invented name. Why not
> allow this opportunity to those who are first?=20
Can, e.g., pdfviewer reasonably be used without tustep? Would the
command
$ pdfviewer /some/random/file.pdf=20
give reasonable output? Can it be launched from the menu in X and then
there's an "Open File" dialog that can be used to open
/some/random/file.pdf?=20
If yes, I would say: Keep the package name as it is (and get in contact
with the xpdf and policy guys, create a virtual package and an
alternatives entry "pdf-viewer"). If no, and pdfviewer depends on the
tustep infrastructure to be useful - then I'd say keep the elegant and
aesthetical way for some other competitor of xpdf.
Regards, Frank
--=20
Frank K=FCster, Biozentrum der Univ. Basel
Abt. Biophysikalische Chemie
| |
| Number Six 2004-03-25, 2:34 pm |
| On Thu, Mar 25, 2004 at 08:34:18AM -0800, Matt Zimmerman wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 25, 2004 at 07:19:18AM -0800, Number Six wrote:
>
>
> There are a wide variety of ways for you to achieve the same result without
> using the very generic name 'pim' for the name of the program.
Okay, I'm convinced -- I'll leave it out. Are there "debian-standard"
ways to do this sort of thing? All I can think of is provide a sample
shell script in examples and tell people to source it. Come to think of
it, if that's good enough for Blackdown's Java to setup the CLASSPATH,
it's good enough for me.
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| Ben Burton 2004-03-25, 4:39 pm |
|
> So the alternative so far is only to allow *no package at all* to be
> named in an elegant and aesthetically pleasing way? There can only be
> one for each name - be it a generic term or an invented name. Why not
> allow this opportunity to those who are first?
There's also the issue of potential disinformation. For some users, a
package such as "terminal" may have an air of "this is *the* canonical
terminal app that everyone should install". OTOH, leaving the overly
generic name unused makes the situation clear - this is simply one of a
very large number of alternative packages all of which more or less do
the same thing (and many of which are designed to offer consistency with
different desktop environments),
Ben.
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| Number Six 2004-03-25, 4:39 pm |
| On Fri, Mar 26, 2004 at 07:38:10AM +1100, Ben Burton wrote:
>
>
> There's also the issue of potential disinformation. For some users, a
> package such as "terminal" may have an air of "this is *the* canonical
> terminal app that everyone should install". OTOH, leaving the overly
> generic name unused makes the situation clear - this is simply one of a
> very large number of alternative packages all of which more or less do
> the same thing (and many of which are designed to offer consistency with
> different desktop environments),
Again, I have to point out the counter examples:
pager for less and its ilk
and display just being the binary that imagemagick provides
cal
And the whole history of Unix/Posix and it's two-letter commands.
It's just that you've said: okay, nobody will argue that *these* are the
canonical tools. But you're stifling innovation!
The only real difference between "links" and "mozilla" providing
/etc/alternatives/x-www-browser and GNUStep and Acrobat providing
/etc/alternatives/viewpdf and Tom Ballard and Kontact and Evolution
providing /etc/alternatives/pim is one of degree -- and that's a
slipperly slope. You're being arbitrary and capricous.
However, I give in and will just ship a shell script with my package to
provide the generic alias. I do think that the package suggesting a
list of generic aliases to its uniquely named binary is A Good Thing.
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| Ben Burton 2004-03-25, 5:35 pm |
|
> Again, I have to point out the counter examples:
>
> pager for less and its ilk
> and display just being the binary that imagemagick provides
> cal
bab@espresso:~> apt-cache show pager display cal
W: Unable to locate package pager
W: Unable to locate package display
W: Unable to locate package cal
E: No packages found
bab@espresso:~>
FWIW, I'm talking about package names here - not binaries (I can't
vouch for what anyone else might be talking about though).
> It's just that you've said: okay, nobody will argue that *these* are the
> canonical tools. But you're stifling innovation!
I must say though, this claim completely mystifies me.
> The only real difference between "links" and "mozilla" providing
> /etc/alternatives/x-www-browser and GNUStep and Acrobat providing
> /etc/alternatives/viewpdf and Tom Ballard and Kontact and Evolution
> providing /etc/alternatives/pim is one of degree -- and that's a
> slipperly slope. You're being arbitrary and capricous.
Is this perhaps meant in response to someone else's mail? I fail to see
how this fits in with what I was saying at all.
Ben.
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| Number Six 2004-03-25, 5:35 pm |
| On Fri, Mar 26, 2004 at 08:22:39AM +1100, Ben Burton wrote:
> FWIW, I'm talking about package names here - not binaries (I can't
> vouch for what anyone else might be talking about though).
>
> Is this perhaps meant in response to someone else's mail? I fail to see
> how this fits in with what I was saying at all.
Yes, if you are only talking about package names, then it has nothing to
do with you. However the other parts of the thread also discussed
generic binaries and generic aliases. You're being puckish, though.
Your argument about "generic names imply canonicality" can be equally
applied to the other two types of entities.
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| Ben Burton 2004-03-25, 6:38 pm |
|
> Your argument about "generic names imply canonicality" can be equally
> applied to the other two types of entities.
Not necessarily. For instance, renaming binaries may or may not cause
breakages with other apps/scripts that expect them to be named the same
as upstream. Renaming packages generally does not lead to such dangers.
Ben.
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| Number Six 2004-03-25, 6:42 pm |
| On Fri, Mar 26, 2004 at 09:35:59AM +1100, Ben Burton wrote:
>
>
> Not necessarily. For instance, renaming binaries may or may not cause
> breakages with other apps/scripts that expect them to be named the same
> as upstream. Renaming packages generally does not lead to such dangers.
That's what Debian patches are for.
So, are viewpdf, terminal, camera, imageviewer, textedit, preferences,
addressmanager, addressview-frameowrk, apps-wrappers,
netclasses-framework, going to be renamed or what?
They should be renamed.
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| Ben Burton 2004-03-25, 6:45 pm |
|
>
> That's what Debian patches are for.
Yes, but package dependencies are trivial to find and fix. Hard-coded
names of binaries in scripts/apps/etc are sometimes harder to spot.
Ben.
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| Benj. Mako Hill 2004-03-26, 11:20 am |
| On Thu, Mar 25, 2004 at 03:42:31PM +0100, Paul Seelig wrote:
>
> So the alternative so far is only to allow *no package at all* to be
> named in an elegant and aesthetically pleasing way? There can only
> be one for each name - be it a generic term or an invented name.
> Why not allow this opportunity to those who are first?
If the first webbrowswer in Debian got to grab the name "webbrowser"
it would satisfy all of our problems by pointing to a browser that,
many years later, only a tiny fraction of users use. First come first
serve is not the way to hand out generic names.
Generic names provide an easy to remember how to call upon a program
with a given functionality but they're not a very good way to
differentiate or remember particular programs.
Programs would be better served to give themselves an original name,
descriptive where possible, and leave the generic names for aliases
or, where appropriate, alternatives.
Regards,
Mako
--
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mako@debian.org
http://mako.yukidoke.org/
| |
| Number Six 2004-03-26, 11:21 am |
| On Thu, Mar 25, 2004 at 10:56:48PM -0800, Benj. Mako Hill wrote:
> Programs would be better served to give themselves an original name,
> descriptive where possible, and leave the generic names for aliases
> or, where appropriate, alternatives.
So, again, as I said in the '/etc/friendlynames' thread, you therefore
conclude that ImageMagick's 'display' and GNUSteps 'viewpdf' are
following a bad practice. We have to live with it because they are
800-lb, 800-year old gorillas, but small fry need not expect the same
kind of treatment.
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| Florent Rougon 2004-03-26, 11:21 am |
| Number Six <40311.nospam@comcast.net> wrote:
> So, again, as I said in the '/etc/friendlynames' thread, you therefore
> conclude that ImageMagick's 'display' and GNUSteps 'viewpdf' are
> following a bad practice. We have to live with it because they are
> 800-lb, 800-year old gorillas, but small fry need not expect the same
> kind of treatment.
Yes, these program names suck.
[ The "GNUstep" directory in my home directory also sucks. Why does this
project seem to think it can pollute every kind of namespace like
this? ]
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| Florian Ernst 2004-03-26, 11:21 am |
| Hello Florent!
On Fri, Mar 26, 2004 at 11:22:17AM +0100, Florent Rougon wrote:
> [ The "GNUstep" directory in my home directory also sucks. Why does this
> project seem to think it can pollute every kind of namespace like
> this? ]
If you don't like it then change it. Simply add something like
GNUSTEP_USER_ROOT=/home/fernst/.GNUstep/
to your environment.
Cheers,
Flo
| |
| Florent Rougon 2004-03-26, 11:21 am |
| Florian Ernst <florian@uni-hd.de> wrote:
> Hello Florent!
>
> On Fri, Mar 26, 2004 at 11:22:17AM +0100, Florent Rougon wrote:
>
> If you don't like it then change it. Simply add something like
> GNUSTEP_USER_ROOT=/home/fernst/.GNUstep/
> to your environment.
Good to know. I will try that, thanks.
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| Frank Küster 2004-03-26, 11:21 am |
| Florian Ernst <florian@uni-hd.de> schrieb:
> Hello Florent!
>
> On Fri, Mar 26, 2004 at 11:22:17AM +0100, Florent Rougon wrote:
>
> If you don't like it then change it. Simply add something like
> GNUSTEP_USER_ROOT=3D/home/fernst/.GNUstep/
> to your environment.
If it's that easy, then it's an even more annoying bug that this isn't
done automatically. I am not aware which application or package it is
that's creating this directory, so I have no idea how I could find this
solution. And this GNUstep stuff, whatever that is, really tries to hide
very well:
frank@alhambra:~$ apropos gnustep
gnustep: nothing appropriate.
frank@alhambra:~$ apropos GNUstep
GNUstep: nothing appropriate.
frank@alhambra:~$ apt-cache search gnustep
affiche - application to "stick" little notes on the desktop.
gnumail - A GNUstep Mail User Agent (clone of the NeXT/Apple's Mail.app)
gnustep-base-examples - Examples using the GNUstep Base Library
gnustep-base1 - The GNUstep Base Library
gnustep-base1-dbg - Debugging versions for the GNUstep Base Library
gnustep-base1-dev - Header files and static libraries for the GNUstep Base
gnustep-examples - GNUstep Example Applications
gnustep-gui0 - The GNUstep Gui Library
gnustep-gui0-dbg - Debugging versions for the GNUstep Gui Library
gnustep-gui0-dev - Header files and static libraries for the GNUstep Gui
gnustep-make - Basic GNUstep Scripts and Makefiles
gnustep-ppd - The GNUstep Postscript Printer Description
gnustep-xgps0 - The GNUstep Xgps Library
gsdict - GNUstep frontend to the dict UNIX utility
gworkspace - Workspace Manager for GNUstep
libproplist0 - PropList closely mimics the property lists found in *Step.
libproplist0-dev - C headers, static libraries and documentation for libPro=
pList
preferences - GNUstep Preferences.app
libwings-dev - Window Maker's own widget set
Ah, there they are. Let's have a look:
frank@alhambra:~$ dlocate -l gnustep | grep ^ii
frank@alhambra:~$ dpkg -S /etc/GNUstep/
dpkg: /etc/GNUstep/ not found. # that's a bug, probably in dpkg
frank@alhambra:~$
I don't even get an idea for which package I should file a
bug. Damn. Well, I know that wmaker is using it. But it hides it well.=20
Regards, Frank
--=20
Frank K=FCster, Biozentrum der Univ. Basel
Abt. Biophysikalische Chemie
| |
| Christoph Hellwig 2004-03-26, 11:21 am |
| On Fri, Mar 26, 2004 at 11:55:40AM +0100, Frank K?ster wrote:
> If it's that easy, then it's an even more annoying bug that this isn't
> done automatically. I am not aware which application or package it is
> that's creating this directory, so I have no idea how I could find this
> solution. And this GNUstep stuff, whatever that is, really tries to hide
> very well:
WindowMaker did create this directory when I last used it. Now why
WindowMaker insists on a directoty GNUstep is completely unknown to me..
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| Florian Ernst 2004-03-26, 11:21 am |
| Hello Frank!
On Fri, Mar 26, 2004 at 11:55:40AM +0100, Frank Küster wrote:
> Florian Ernst <florian@uni-hd.de> schrieb:
>
> If it's that easy, then it's an even more annoying bug that this isn't
> done automatically. I am not aware which application or package it is
> that's creating this directory, so I have no idea how I could find this
> solution. And this GNUstep stuff, whatever that is, really tries to hide
> very well:
> [...]
> Ah, there they are. Let's have a look:
>
> frank@alhambra:~$ dlocate -l gnustep | grep ^ii
> frank@alhambra:~$ dpkg -S /etc/GNUstep/
> dpkg: /etc/GNUstep/ not found. # that's a bug, probably in dpkg
> frank@alhambra:~$
$ dpkg -S /etc/GNUstep
wmaker: /etc/GNUstep
I'm not sure whether this behavior is a bug or a feature (for
something I'm missing here)...
> I don't even get an idea for which package I should file a
> bug. Damn. Well, I know that wmaker is using it. But it hides it well.
As Christoph already pointed out it's wmaker.
But please note that when filing a bug it is unclear what response
you'll recieve, if any:
Marcelo Magallon, the maintainer, asked for help in January, claiming
his co-maintainers aren't that active lately[1]. qa is aware of this
situation[2].
Cheers,
Flo
[1] http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-0401/msg00094.html
[2] http://lists.debian.org/debian-qa-0403/msg00174.html
| |
| Florian Ernst 2004-03-26, 1:43 pm |
| Hello Frank!
On Fri, Mar 26, 2004 at 03:17:42PM +0100, Frank Küster wrote:
> Florian Ernst <florian@uni-hd.de> wrote:
>
>
> I'd say a bug. But I won't submit minor bugs against dpkg, found on a
> woody-bunk-plus-lots_of_own_backports box. Have no time reading throught
> the list of existing bugs :-(.
>
>
> As _I_ pointed already out.
Err, yes, as you and Christoph have mentioned.
> But the main point is that it's not only badly polluting namespace, it's
> also not easy to find who it is - imagine somebody who just installed
> wmaker because he wanted to try application on a couple of window
> managers.
It is not that difficult to find out as each of the subdirectories
contains a file or dir named 'WindowMaker'.
I agree on 'GNUstep' being quite confusing when being found in ~, and
I merely wanted to provide some information on how one can change that
name and regarding the problems currently being related to that
package...
Cheers,
Flo
| |
| Matt Zimmerman 2004-03-26, 5:34 pm |
| On Fri, Mar 26, 2004 at 01:54:59AM -0800, Number Six wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 25, 2004 at 10:56:48PM -0800, Benj. Mako Hill wrote:
>
> So, again, as I said in the '/etc/friendlynames' thread, you therefore
> conclude that ImageMagick's 'display' and GNUSteps 'viewpdf' are
> following a bad practice. We have to live with it because they are
> 800-lb, 800-year old gorillas, but small fry need not expect the same
> kind of treatment.
Yes, they are following a bad practice, but I would hardly consider those
examples to be immutable.
(view(1), on the other hand, really is as old as the hills, and therefore
immutable)
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| Hamish Moffatt 2004-03-27, 3:33 am |
| On Thu, Mar 25, 2004 at 05:15:18PM +0100, Frank Küster wrote:
> If yes, I would say: Keep the package name as it is (and get in contact
> with the xpdf and policy guys, create a virtual package and an
> alternatives entry "pdf-viewer"). If no, and pdfviewer depends on the
> tustep infrastructure to be useful - then I'd say keep the elegant and
> aesthetical way for some other competitor of xpdf.
There's already a pdf-viewer virtual package, which xpdf, gpdf and
gv (at least) provide. As to an alternatives entry, is that necessary?
It is already possible to launch a PDF viewer through the MIME system
eg "see /path/to/my.pdf".
Hamish
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| Frank Küster 2004-03-28, 7:34 am |
| Hamish Moffatt <hamish@debian.org> schrieb:
> On Thu, Mar 25, 2004 at 05:15:18PM +0100, Frank K=FCster wrote:
>
> There's already a pdf-viewer virtual package, which xpdf, gpdf and
> gv (at least) provide.=20
Good, I missed that.
> As to an alternatives entry, is that necessary?
Probably not - I don't care.
Regards, Frank
--=20
Frank K=FCster, Biozentrum der Univ. Basel
Abt. Biophysikalische Chemie
| |
| Benj. Mako Hill 2004-03-28, 7:34 pm |
| On Fri, Mar 26, 2004 at 01:54:59AM -0800, Number Six wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 25, 2004 at 10:56:48PM -0800, Benj. Mako Hill wrote:
>
> So, again, as I said in the '/etc/friendlynames' thread, you
> therefore conclude that ImageMagick's 'display' and GNUSteps
> 'viewpdf' are following a bad practice
Absolutely. I've said this in the past.
> We have to live with it because they are 800-lb, 800-year old
> gorillas, but small fry need not expect the same kind of treatment.
It has nothing to do with the size or the popularity. If someone were
to ITP imagemagick now, I would object to it on the same grounds I
objected to "email" and am objecting in this thread. It's 100% a
history and precedent issue. If we were to rename "displa˙" at this
point, wé'd have to put in a symlink anyway.
Regards,
Mako
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mako@debian.org
http://mako.yukidoke.org/
| |
| Gunnar Wolf 2004-03-29, 3:36 pm |
| Number Six dijo [Thu, Mar 25, 2004 at 10:27:08AM -0800]:
>
> Okay, I'm convinced -- I'll leave it out. Are there "debian-standard"
> ways to do this sort of thing? All I can think of is provide a sample
> shell script in examples and tell people to source it. Come to think of
> it, if that's good enough for Blackdown's Java to setup the CLASSPATH,
> it's good enough for me.
We had a recent bug report regarding alternatives to telling people to
source a shell script - Take a look at #238592 if you are interested
in a little extra discussion.
Greetings,
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PGP key 1024D/8BB527AF 2001-10-23
Fingerprint: 0C79 D2D1 2C4E 9CE4 5973 F800 D80E F35A 8BB5 27AF
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