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Proposal: /etc/friendlynames
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| Number Six 2004-03-25, 7:34 pm |
| Proposal, additions to Policy and changes to dpkg:
(1) Add to policy: all package names must be nongeneric [1].
(2) Add to policy: all new binary names must be nongeneric.
Historical generic names ("file", &c.) are grandfathered in.
Where possible, upstream packages should be patched to create
nongeneric binaries (e.g., "imagemagick-display",
"gnustep-viewpdf").
(3) Add /etc/friendlynames and update-friendlynames to dpkg, which
works similar to /etc/alternatives except applications sharing
names are not expected to provide similar functionality or
accept identical arguments.
(4) Heavily-favor well-established names (e.g, "display" for their
traditional applications.)
(5) Where possible, patch scripts to refer to the unambigious names.
(6) Where difficult to find all references, do not support bugs arising
from unusual remappings of friendly names. If you want to be wierd,
that's on you.
Benefits:
* Menu launchers could have generic icons to launch "word-processor",
"calculator", "graphics-editor", "contact-manager". Deep integration is
not expected: just launch the app with no arguments.
* All users across multiple systems have a consistent interface for
making sure friendly-names are consistent.
Risks:
* People depend on the friendlynames in their scripts, users change
them, scripts break. Mitigation: provide recommendations for
friendlynames, identify names which are safe to remap, and don't support
adventurous users whose system break.
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| Adrian 'Dagurashibanipal' von Bidder 2004-03-26, 11:20 am |
| | |
| Mathieu Roy 2004-03-26, 11:21 am |
| Adrian 'Dagurashibanipal' von Bidder <avbidder@fortytwo.ch> wrote:
> On Friday 26 March 2004 00.41, Number Six wrote:
>
> And watch the endless discussions on what, exactly, is a generic name and what
> is not. Discussing this has, imho, worked well so far.
So a presupposed hyperrelativism will block here this interesting
proposal?
gnome-pdfviewer, gpdfviewer, are non-generic. pdfviewer is.
Is that so problematic? Who wants to argue about that?
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Mathieu Roy
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| Number Six 2004-03-26, 11:21 am |
| On Fri, Mar 26, 2004 at 08:19:29AM +0100, Adrian 'Dagurashibanipal' von Bidder wrote:
> If there's two packages installing binaries with the same name, and they are
> not replacements for each other, I guess that's a problem upstream should be
> made aware of, too, so I see manual conflict resolution here as a good thing.
Okay, then, that's it. I'm going to continue to dh_link my 'tupim' to
'pim.' Since there currently are no 'pim's, it's not a problem.
If/when there is a pim, I'll change it, or just mark myself in conflict
with whomever else also claims it, nobody else needs to do anything.
The problem with not putting in policy is you either have to agree this
is okay in all cases or else you are not presenting an even playing
field (by allowing GNUStep and Imagemagick to install generic binary
names). I'm perfectly fine being in conflict with any other app named
'pim'.
Okay?
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| Florent Rougon 2004-03-26, 11:21 am |
| Number Six <40311.nospam@comcast.net> wrote:
> Okay?
Yeah, let's spread confusion whenever posssible!
5 years from now, several users will discuss about their use of 'pim'.
But *which* pim? (less importantly, it is ridiculous to have several
packages conflict for such a non-reason).
Call it tupim, tbpim, whatever makes you happy and let -devel discuss
more important things.
Later, you'll be happy that asking $SEARCH_ENGINE for the name you chose
really leads to your program's home page and not to that of a random
other Personal Information Manager.
If typing tupim is too much for you, for God's sake, use an shell alias
as everyone told you already, or create a /usr/local/bin/pim if that
makes you happy, but *leave this list in peace*.
--
Florent
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| Number Six 2004-03-26, 11:21 am |
| On Fri, Mar 26, 2004 at 11:16:29AM +0100, Florent Rougon wrote:
> Number Six <40311.nospam@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
> Yeah, let's spread confusion whenever posssible!
>
> 5 years from now, several users will discuss about their use of 'pim'.
> But *which* pim? (less importantly, it is ridiculous to have several
> packages conflict for such a non-reason).
You're dancing around the issue that some people are landgrabbing.
Funny, I heard about story on NPR this afternoon about landgrabbing in
San Paulo, and how if you just throw a tarp on a parking lot and stay
there for six years, eventually nobody can do anything about it. They
were talking about the social implications of 90% of San Pauloans not
understanding the concept of a mortgage. It's a social problem.
Societies need structure. This is analogous.
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| Florent Rougon 2004-03-26, 11:21 am |
| Number Six <40311.nospam@comcast.net> wrote:
> You're dancing around the issue that some people are landgrabbing.
I'm not dancing around the issue. If your program is known as tupim,
everyone is happy. When someone talks about your program, everyone that
knows it thinks tupim. When someone talks about tupim, everyone that
knows it thinks about your program.
Now, if an ubiquitous 'pim' program actually refers to 50 different
programs, that is rather bad IMHO.
This particular problem (around 'pim') is both quite simple and
unimportant for -devel. I will not discuss it any further.
On a side note, how about using your real name now or forgetting the
idea of getting your package in the archive? It will be pretty hard to
remain anonymous if you have a package in the archive.
--
Florent
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| Number Six 2004-03-26, 11:21 am |
|
I know what I'm going to do. I'm going to write an additional package
which provides "/etc/friendlynames, update-friendlynames" by stealing
the code from dpkg. My package 'tupim' by default will just be tupim.
It will suggest or recommend 'friendlynames', at which point then it
will also be known as 'pim'. Nobody's hurt, everybody wins. People who
hate it just won't install 'friendlynames'.
--------
On Fri, Mar 26, 2004 at 12:17:12PM +0100, Florent Rougon wrote:
> knows it thinks tupim. When someone talks about tupim, everyone that
> knows it thinks about your program.
>
> Now, if an ubiquitous 'pim' program actually refers to 50 different
> programs, that is rather bad IMHO.
You're missing the point: tupim (or gnustep-viewpdf) continues to be its
real name. As a mere convenience it can also be referred to as pim or
viewpdf.
>
> This particular problem (around 'pim') is both quite simple and
> unimportant for -devel. I will not discuss it any further.
See, that's that "800-pound gorilla" mentality at work: you are not
prepared to accept for some people what is blatantly around for others
(i.e., posix "file").
>
> On a side note, how about using your real name now or forgetting the
> idea of getting your package in the archive? It will be pretty hard to
> remain anonymous if you have a package in the archive.
I'm not trying to be anonymous. My name is Tom Ballard, it's all over
the place. I'm doing it out of a sense of freedom. Freedom to conform
is useless. It doesn't hurt you, don't tread on me.
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| Florent Rougon 2004-03-26, 11:22 am |
| Number Six <40311.nospam@comcast.net> wrote:
> will also be known as 'pim'. Nobody's hurt, everybody wins. People who
> hate it just won't install 'friendlynames'.
OK, you know that most users used to type 'pim' for a given program will
understandably think they are using 'pim', which will confuse many
people, but you really want to troll and pollute -devel. I cannot stop
that, unfortunately, but I can ignore you from now on.
> See, that's that "800-pound gorilla" mentality at work: you are not
> prepared to accept for some people what is blatantly around for others
> (i.e., posix "file").
You know, POSIX is not exactly insignificant on Unix.
<sarcasm>Not everyone comes from Microsoft.</sarcasm>
> I'm not trying to be anonymous. My name is Tom Ballard, it's all over
> the place. I'm doing it out of a sense of freedom. Freedom to conform
> is useless. It doesn't hurt you, don't tread on me.
Ahah? Would you mind if I cited a message of yours?
,----[ Tom Ballard, aka Nano Nano, aka Nunya, aka Number Six ]
| > PS Why don't you sign your messages with your real name Tom Ballard?
|
| "Just because." -- I like random behavior. It trips up dumb scripts
| and makes 'em work a little harder. "Why not?"
`----
(http://lists.debian.org/debian-deve...2/msg01700.html)
What kind of dumb scripts were you talking about, if all this is not
aimed at remaining more or less anonymous?
*plonk*
--
Florent
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| Oliver Kurth 2004-03-26, 1:42 pm |
| On Fri, 2004-03-26 at 15:00, Number Six wrote:
> Since I've identified myself as the author of tupim, I'm not any worse
> off getting a new package in than anybody else. And since it's not
> going to be called 'pim', what's the problem? If nobody will accept
> friendlynames (which, btw, I'm already almost finished with), then I'll
> just build my thing without it, put it on sourceforge, and point people
> to it. I don't care if nobody uses it but me. Which I've heard a time
> or two about Debian.
Have you heard about bash's tab completion?:
kurth@nimrod:~$ pi<tab>
pi-csd pi-nredir pic pickdns-data
pidof pilot-datebook pilot-prc pinfo
pi-getram pi1toppm pic2graph pico
pilot-addresses pilot-dedupe pilot-schlep ping
pi-getrom pi3topbm pickdns picocom
pilot-archive pilot-file pilot-undelete pinky
pi-getromtoken pia pickdns-conf piconv
pilot-clip pilot-foto pilot-xfer
kurth@nimrod:~$
kurth@nimrod:~$ tu<tab>
(nothing...)
Okay, I have all this pilot stuff, but even without them, (I also tried
this on another host) you are still better off with tupim than with pim,
if you just want to save keystrokes. Which you already wasted in this
thread.
Greetings,
Oliver
| |
| Josselin Mouette 2004-03-26, 1:43 pm |
| Le ven 26/03/2004 à 15:41, Number Six a écrit :
> Not trolling, I honestly do not know why anything I've said or the way
> I've said it has made you mad.
Probably because you've giving loads of advice while obviously having no
XXXXing clue about the subject you want to discuss.
--
.''`. Josselin Mouette /\./\
: :' : josselin.mouette@ens-lyon.org
`. `' joss@debian.org
`- Debian GNU/Linux -- The power of freedom
| |
| William Ballard 2004-03-26, 1:43 pm |
| On Fri, Mar 26, 2004 at 05:11:40PM +0100, Josselin Mouette wrote:
> Le ven 26/03/2004 à 15:41, Number Six a écrit :
>
> Probably because you've giving loads of advice while obviously having no
> XXXXing clue about the subject you want to discuss.
Yeah, well, I betcha a dollar it will happen. Look at what Apple did to
BSD's directory structure. My idea is a winner for the same reasons.
Anyway, I've hacked dpkg into friendlynames. I'll post it on
sourceforge. I don't give a toss about it going into Debian.
Later on you can claim you thought of it :-)
By the way, my real name is William Ballard. My real name is also Tom
Ballard. From here on out, call me William.
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| William Ballard 2004-03-26, 1:44 pm |
| On Fri, Mar 26, 2004 at 08:42:06AM -0800, William Ballard wrote:
> Anyway, I've hacked dpkg into friendlynames. I'll post it on
> sourceforge. I don't give a toss about it going into Debian.
http://mentors.debian.net/debian/po.../friendlynames/
Well, there it is. It works perfectly. It was stupid easy, a moron
like me could do it. If you don't like it, don't use it. It takes a
couple days to get sourcforge to start it. Builds clean with pbuilder
sid.
# update-friendlynames --install /usr/bin/viewpdf viewpdf `which xpdf` 10
Obviously, installing 'viewpdf' will now break, because it doesn't use
it.
If you think it's a tremendously stupid idea, don't use it. My
great-grandfather used to say, there's enough ways in the world for
everybody to have one of their own.
I won't bother to ITP, because I expect everyone here except me will
hate it.
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| Adam Heath 2004-03-26, 2:38 pm |
| On Fri, 26 Mar 2004, William Ballard wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 26, 2004 at 05:11:40PM +0100, Josselin Mouette wrote:
y[color=darkred]
o[color=darkred]
>
> Yeah, well, I betcha a dollar it will happen. Look at what Apple did to
> BSD's directory structure. My idea is a winner for the same reasons.
> Anyway, I've hacked dpkg into friendlynames. I'll post it on
> sourceforge. I don't give a toss about it going into Debian.
It'll never go into dpkg, period.
<wearing dpkg hat>
| |
| William Ballard 2004-03-26, 2:38 pm |
| On Fri, Mar 26, 2004 at 12:36:47PM -0600, Adam Heath wrote:
>
> It'll never go into dpkg, period.
>
> <wearing dpkg hat>
Well, I feel a little bit stupid, because I just noticed you can
override --altdir and --admindir and do the same thing with the existing
update-alternatives.
All I can say is I goddamn well better never see a 'pim' in the
archives. You guys already bent over and accepted a 'viewpdf.'
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| Manoj Srivastava 2004-03-27, 11:33 pm |
| On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 08:42:06 -0800, Tom Ballard <40311.nospam@comcast.net> said:
> By the way, my real name is William Ballard. My real name is also
> Tom Ballard. From here on out, call me William.
I don't think real means what you think it means.
manoj
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| Glenn Maynard 2004-03-27, 11:33 pm |
| On Sat, Mar 27, 2004 at 09:41:42PM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 08:42:06 -0800, Tom Ballard <40311.nospam@comcast.net> said:
>
> I don't think real means what you think it means.
I think we all have a general understanding of what "troll" means, though.
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| William Ballard 2004-03-28, 8:35 am |
| On Sat, Mar 27, 2004 at 11:08:20PM -0500, Glenn Maynard wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 27, 2004 at 09:41:42PM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
>
> I think we all have a general understanding of what "troll" means, though.
You're both discussing things OT for -devel and therefore in the wrong.
My posts were on-topic. You'rs aren't.
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| Scott James Remnant 2004-03-28, 12:34 pm |
| On Thu, 2004-03-25 at 23:41, Number Six wrote:
> Proposal, additions to Policy and changes to dpkg:
>
> (3) Add /etc/friendlynames and update-friendlynames to dpkg, which
> works similar to /etc/alternatives except applications sharing
> names are not expected to provide similar functionality or
> accept identical arguments.
>
If this is identical to alternatives in functionality, and it sounds
like it is, then that's how it should be implemented.
Scott
--
Have you ever, ever felt like this?
Had strange things happen? Are you going round the twist?
| |
| William Ballard 2004-03-28, 1:34 pm |
| On Sun, Mar 28, 2004 at 06:25:10PM +0100, Scott James Remnant wrote:
> On Thu, 2004-03-25 at 23:41, Number Six wrote:
>
> If this is identical to alternatives in functionality, and it sounds
> like it is, then that's how it should be implemented.
Yeah. Since no package should install a binary with a generic name
(such as pim, viewpdf, or display, word-processor, or spreadsheet) as
some have agreed, *if* one desires to have such names available on the
entire system one can use update-alternatives, or one can use shell
aliases. The key to making this work is verifying no package installs
such a generically named binary, thus the suggestion for adding such to
policy.
It's probably not a big huge deal, that requires policy, as long as
thoughtful people keep binaries named viewpdf and display out of the
system. And, as I said, I really hope no one ever installs a "pim",
because this is a FriendlyName *I* want.
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