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Re: Are we losing users to Gentoo?
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| Gabe Stevens 2004-03-24, 11:34 pm |
| I found this thread in the Gentoo Forums 
I am a WindowsXP user who has long been interested in linux. Every year I'll
wipe my system and try a few linux distros. I always end up going back to
Windows, because my video games never play quite right in linux, even with
winex. The first distro that stayed on my system for more then a month was
RedHat 7.2, I became frustrated with RPM's and the inability to change my
resolution / refresh without restarting X. After that was Suse 8.0 which was
nice, but I found it hard to find help and too much documentation was
shipped in German, of which I read very little.
I've tried Debian several times and at first, never made it through the
installer, later, got it installed but had trouble with apt-get, easier then
rpms, but for a native windows user, no easier to solve. Even later (in
college now) I had given away my original Debian CD's and had to download
new ISO's, I found jigdo to be irritating and paid my roommate $5 to
download them for me over a three day period. Using a download manager to
just download the iso's from an http or ftp would have been more convenient
for me. I see that now there is a link to do just that, I honestly don't
remember whether it wasn't there two years ago, or whether I just missed it
then. At that point I really knew about nothing about anything that was not
point and click, despite the number of forums, help pages, and textbooks I'd
struggled through.
Then my roommate challenged me to see who could get a Gentoo (1.2)
installation up and running first. A light went on. There documentation was
thorough and written in simple steps which a monkey could follow (apparently
what I needed). I learned more on that weekend about linux and the computer
in general then all the messing around I'd done before. In subsequent months
by doing everything command line style, and most importantly editing
configuration files I became passably fluent in linux in general. I stayed
with Gentoo right up until kernel 2.6 was released when I moved back to XP
to play FinalFantasy X, and Anarchy Online, neither of which I was smart
enough to get running in Gentoo.
By far my favorite feature of the Gentoo system is that their installer can
run without putting my other desktop out of commission, either from Knoppix
or from another distro with which I was comfortable. I don't know if any
other distros can be installed from within a running system, but I'd love to
hear about it if they can be.
Now I'm getting bored with my games and soon to be heading back to playing
with linux, and perhaps I'll give Debian another run, reading this thread
has given me some incentive to try it again. But I'll always like Gentoo
because of what I learned using it, even if I choose another distro for my
desktop.
As an actual response to the thread, however.
I would like to see some data backing up this move of Debian users to
Gentoo. I agree with the general sentiment of the responses so far, Gentoo
is simply the newest and coolest and whether it stays around or fades, it's
not really a threat to the Debian userbase. I rarely hear of people using
Gentoo for a mission critical system, I often hear of people using Debian
for mission critical machines, however.
Sorry if this post annoyed anyone, I know Windows users views aren't often
appreciated in the linux world, but thanks for the time anyway.
Gabe
| |
| Eduard Bloch 2004-03-25, 7:39 am |
| #include <hallo.h>
* Gabe Stevens [Wed, Mar 24 2004, 10:29:53PM]:
> Then my roommate challenged me to see who could get a Gentoo (1.2)
> installation up and running first. A light went on. There documentation was
> thorough and written in simple steps which a monkey could follow (apparently
That is what we need in Debian, IMHO. Too many maintainers concentraty
on the diversity, while 90% of the users coming from MS boXen do NOT
need it immediately. Instead, they need a next->next->next howto or
installer, leading to a KNOPPIX like system.
OTOH, I think you are confused now and tell us wrong things. The
installer provides the fine "Next step or Next Alternative" buttons, it
is hard to miss them. So do you really explain your attitude honestly?
So which problems did REALLY make problems in your first Debian install?
> what I needed). I learned more on that weekend about linux and the computer
> in general then all the messing around I'd done before. In subsequent months
> by doing everything command line style, and most importantly editing
> configuration files I became passably fluent in linux in general. I stayed
Ha, haha. Never claim this.
> By far my favorite feature of the Gentoo system is that their installer can
> run without putting my other desktop out of commission, either from Knoppix
> or from another distro with which I was comfortable. I don't know if any
> other distros can be installed from within a running system, but I'd love to
> hear about it if they can be.
WTF? Why did you not read the Debian Install manual, there is a whole
chapter explaining this.
Regards,
Eduard.
--
Lache, und die Welt lacht mit Dir.
Schnarche und Du schläfst allein.
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| |
| Bruno Barrera C. 2004-03-25, 7:39 am |
| On Wed, 2004-03-24 at 23:29, Gabe Stevens wrote:
> I found this thread in the Gentoo Forums
>
>
>
> I am a WindowsXP user who has long been interested in linux. Every
> year I’ll wipe my system and try a few linux distros. I always end up
> going back to Windows, because my video games never play quite right
> in linux, even with winex. The first distro that stayed on my system
> for more then a month was RedHat 7.2, I became frustrated with RPM’s
> and the inability to change my resolution / refresh without restarting
> X. After that was Suse 8.0 which was nice, but I found it hard to find
> help and too much documentation was shipped in German, of which I read
> very little.
>
>
>
> I’ve tried Debian several times and at first, never made it through
> the installer, later, got it installed but had trouble with apt-get,
> easier then rpms, but for a native windows user, no easier to solve.
> Even later (in college now) I had given away my original Debian CD’s
> and had to download new ISO’s, I found jigdo to be irritating and paid
> my roommate $5 to download them for me over a three day period. Using
> a download manager to just download the iso’s from an http or ftp
> would have been more convenient for me. I see that now there is a link
> to do just that, I honestly don’t remember whether it wasn’t there two
> years ago, or whether I just missed it then. At that point I really
> knew about nothing about anything that was not point and click,
> despite the number of forums, help pages, and textbooks I’d struggled
> through.
>
>
>
> Then my roommate challenged me to see who could get a Gentoo (1.2)
> installation up and running first. A light went on. There
> documentation was thorough and written in simple steps which a monkey
> could follow (apparently what I needed). I learned more on that
> weekend about linux and the computer in general then all the messing
> around I’d done before. In subsequent months by doing everything
> command line style, and most importantly editing configuration files I
> became passably fluent in linux in general. I stayed with Gentoo right
> up until kernel 2.6 was released when I moved back to XP to play
> FinalFantasy X, and Anarchy Online, neither of which I was smart
> enough to get running in Gentoo.
>
>
>
> By far my favorite feature of the Gentoo system is that their
> installer can run without putting my other desktop out of commission,
> either from Knoppix or from another distro with which I was
> comfortable. I don’t know if any other distros can be installed from
> within a running system, but I’d love to hear about it if they can be.
>
>
>
> Now I’m getting bored with my games and soon to be heading back to
> playing with linux, and perhaps I’ll give Debian another run, reading
> this thread has given me some incentive to try it again. But I’ll
> always like Gentoo because of what I learned using it, even if I
> choose another distro for my desktop.
>
>
>
> As an actual response to the thread, however…
>
> I would like to see some data backing up this move of Debian users to
> Gentoo. I agree with the general sentiment of the responses so far,
> Gentoo is simply the newest and coolest and whether it stays around or
> fades, it’s not really a threat to the Debian userbase. I rarely hear
> of people using Gentoo for a mission critical system, I often hear of
> people using Debian for mission critical machines, however.
>
>
>
> Sorry if this post annoyed anyone, I know Windows users views aren’t
> often appreciated in the linux world, but thanks for the time anyway.
>
> Gabe
Honestly, I think not.
This is just one of the choices, but here in Chile for example, most
linux users were using Slackware for a long time, and they changed to
Debian. Why? Because, after some time, you're tired of to fix the
security bugs by hand, upgrade you're system by hand too , and finally
you don't have time. Three lines in sources.list, and a script in cron,
will fix that. In resume, after some time you only want a system that
"it works" and with Debian, "it work"s, and "it works" well.
Windows users will be Windows users for ever. If they want to change to
Linux, they will have to adapt to (installers, handling of packages,
etc), and learn, because if you don't want to learn how a system works,
why do you want to use Linux?
Gentoo isn't a bad idea. And maybe you want to have your packages
compiled, your installation by hand, etc etc etc. but finally, you will
have to take muuuuuuuuuuuch time for this, or you will change to other
distribution, and all we know which is the best handling that.
Regards,
Bruno.
--
Midway upon the journey of our life,
I found myself within a forest dark,
For the straightforward pathway had been lost.
| |
| Julian Mehnle 2004-03-25, 7:39 am |
| Eduard Bloch [edi@gmx.de] wrote:
> * Gabe Stevens [Wed, Mar 24 2004, 10:29:53PM]:
> OTOH, I think you are confused now and tell us wrong things.
> [...]
> WTF? Why did you not read the Debian Install manual, there is a whole
> chapter explaining this.
He said he found the message on a message board. He only quoted that
message. No point in being rude to *him*.
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|
|
| Francesco Paolo Lovergine 2004-03-26, 1:43 pm |
| On Wed, Mar 24, 2004 at 10:29:53PM -0500, Gabe Stevens wrote:
> I found this thread in the Gentoo Forums
>
Bah, he looks like a troll IMHO. Only a troll could consider
gentoo easier than debian and claims to be a windows user anyway.
A real newbie would prefer suse or mandrake, because they are much
more windows-like than other distros. That's my experience in my LUG.
--
Francesco P. Lovergine
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|
| Hey there,
as a Gentoo user I have to tell you that YES, you are loosing users to Gentoo.
Namely you have lost me. Many others too probably.
I actually tried my luck with Debian first. So why did I turn to Gentoo?
Well, because the Debian install process was simply horrible. I do NOT want to
fiddle with jigdo and the likes. I want to download an ISO or a webinstall CD
and be done with it. So I got myself the unstable webinstall ISO and popped
into my drive. It forced me to install LILO. I HATE lilo. The thing has no
business being on my drive. I expect grub as an option. And why does it force
me to install a bootloader anyway? Gentoo never does that. I could happily
keep my grub that I still have from Suse.
So Debian fisted my master boot record with lilo and had half a day fun
getting rid of lilo and putting grub back into place. Only to find out that
Debian would not install the package groupes I selected in the web installer
because of some conflict or other arbitrary problem (?).
You may ask why I did not use the stable version? Well I want a somewhat
recent system that supports my hardware!
And as far as documentation goes: Gentoo has a beautiful step by step manual
on how to get the system up and running. You don't even have to dig for it.
It is right there for you. Could not say the same about Debian. Debian rather
tells you that they do not need a beginner like you.
So, yes, Gentoo IS all about choice. And Debian ... i doubt I will try that
again. Maybe I'll install a Knoppix. But Debian directly ??? NO !!!
ciao
Nik
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| Scott James Remnant 2004-03-31, 6:34 am |
| On Wed, 2004-03-31 at 10:46, Nik wrote:
> Hey there,
>
> as a Gentoo user I have to tell you that YES, you are loosing users to Gentoo.
> Namely you have lost me. Many others too probably.
>
So? We're all on the same side.
Scott
--
Have you ever, ever felt like this?
Had strange things happen? Are you going round the twist?
| |
| Josselin Mouette 2004-03-31, 7:37 am |
| Le mer 31/03/2004 à 11:46, Nik a écrit :
> It forced me to install LILO. I HATE lilo. The thing has no
> business being on my drive. I expect grub as an option. And why does it force
> me to install a bootloader anyway? Gentoo never does that. I could happily
> keep my grub that I still have from Suse.
[snip]
> And as far as documentation goes: Gentoo has a beautiful step by step manual
> on how to get the system up and running. You don't even have to dig for it.
> It is right there for you. Could not say the same about Debian. Debian rather
> tells you that they do not need a beginner like you.
It seems you made the effort to read the Gentoo installation manual, but
not the Debian installation manual. No wonder why you were lucky with
only one installation...
It is surely because DEBAIN TEH SU><0R GENT00 OWNZ Y4 L4M4RZ.
--
.''`. Josselin Mouette /\./\
: :' : josselin.mouette@ens-lyon.org
`. `' joss@debian.org
`- Debian GNU/Linux -- The power of freedom
| |
| Ingo Juergensmann 2004-03-31, 7:38 am |
| On Wed, Mar 31, 2004 at 02:10:50PM +0200, Josselin Mouette wrote:
> It seems you made the effort to read the Gentoo installation manual, but
> not the Debian installation manual. No wonder why you were lucky with
> only one installation...
Not only that:
even without reading the manual or install notes, you can easily figure out
that you can skip the "make harddisk bootable" entry during the installation
or how that it is called.
But we should be happy about his mail, because it shows us that every
distribution gets the users it deserves... ;^))
--
Ciao... //
Ingo \X/
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| Bartosz Fenski aka fEnIo 2004-03-31, 8:40 am |
| On Wed, Mar 31, 2004 at 11:46:51AM +0200, Nik wrote:
> I actually tried my luck with Debian first. So why did I turn to Gentoo?
> Well, because the Debian install process was simply horrible.
> I do NOT want to fiddle with jigdo and the likes. I want to download
> an ISO or a webinstall CD and be done with it.
By the way (that's not to you Nik):
Why there is note that we provide only jigdo files for Sarge?
At least these mirrors has normal ISO files, and are listed below
section about Sarge images. (I've checked only http mirrors, but
probably some ftp mirrors have these images too).
http://mirrors.sec.informatik.tu-da...official/sarge/
http://sunsite.cnlab-switch.ch/ftp/...official/sarge/
http://ftp.acc.umu.se/pub/cd-images...official/sarge/
http://debian.linux.org.tw/debian-unofficial/sarge/
http://ftp.kfki.hu/linux/cdimages/d...official/sarge/
So why there is information only about jigdo if user can simply download
ISO too. We should put info about availability of normal ISO images,
especially when whole these images are described as unofficial.
IMO there should be info that some mirrors provide such ISOs.
That's only my 0.02$.
regards
fEnIo
--
_ Bartosz Feñski aka fEnIo | mailto:fenio@o2.pl | pgp:0x13fefc40
_|_|_ 32-050 Skawina - G³owackiego 3/15 - w. ma³opolskie - Polska
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| |
| Christian Perrier 2004-03-31, 8:40 am |
| Quoting Nik (my_junk@gmx.net):
> and be done with it. So I got myself the unstable webinstall ISO and popped
> into my drive. It forced me to install LILO. I HATE lilo. The thing has no
> business being on my drive. I expect grub as an option. And why does it force
You tested a beta version of the installer. Would you have tested the
latest beta, you would have grub out of the box.
Would you have read the documentation, you would have found that
"linux expert" would have offer you grub as an option.
You're perfectly entitled in whining about Debian this or Debian that.
But don't whine with lies. You tested a beta version_: you got what
you tested -> a beta system.
And, sorry for this, but people writing hate words about a software
which maybe has dozens of flaws and is maybe outdated, but is here
nearly since Linux started, give a poor impression of themselves....
The free software world is not a place for hate, sorry.
By the way, if Gentoo better fits your needs, then it's OK for
everybody_: Gentoo has won a happy user and Debian lost a non
contributive user:
http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgr....net&archive=no
This is a win/win situation.
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| |
| Steinar H. Gunderson 2004-03-31, 8:40 am |
| On Wed, Mar 31, 2004 at 02:42:31PM +0200, Bartosz Fenski aka fEnIo wrote:
> IMO there should be info that some mirrors provide such ISOs.
Preferrably not, as all such unofficial sarge ISOs I've seen have way
outdated and broken versions of debian-installer. Please use the sarge
netinst/businesscard ISOs[1] instead -- they're not a large download, they're
official and they're up-to-date and hopefully easy to install.
[1] http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-installer/
/* Steinar */
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| Matthias Urlichs 2004-03-31, 3:38 pm |
| Hi, Sean Harshbarger wrote:
> It would be nice to have support for optimized
> binaries. IMHO it would help Debian out a lot.
As far as I recall, the performance gains from compiling everything with
your-favorite-optimizer-settings aren't _that_ great -- typically smaller
than what you'd gain by waiting a couple of months before buying your
computer.
If you have a performance problem, recompiling the pieces that actually
are too slow is still faster than to wait for your box to compile
*everything*. For myself, however, I fail to see the point.
(In a previous life, I ran an entire ISP on my own home-brew
Linux distribution. You might brand me as a masochist, but you can't
accuse me of not knowing whereof I speak. ;-)
--
Matthias Urlichs
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| Gary L Greene Jr 2004-03-31, 3:38 pm |
| =2D----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On Wednesday 31 March 2004 03:01 pm, Matthias Urlichs wrote:
> Hi, Sean Harshbarger wrote:
>
> As far as I recall, the performance gains from compiling everything with
> your-favorite-optimizer-settings aren't _that_ great -- typically smaller
> than what you'd gain by waiting a couple of months before buying your
> computer.
>
> If you have a performance problem, recompiling the pieces that actually
> are too slow is still faster than to wait for your box to compile
> *everything*. For myself, however, I fail to see the point.
>
> (In a previous life, I ran an entire ISP on my own home-brew
> Linux distribution. You might brand me as a masochist, but you can't
> accuse me of not knowing whereof I speak. ;-)
>
> --
> Matthias Urlichs
I've seen some benchmarking on this from a friend of mine and for most apps=
=20
you see a very slight gain, but nothing that makes it a "must have" option,=
=20
especially when you weigh the downside (needing the time to rebuild the app=
=20
locally). The overall gain I noted from his tests suggested about +0.75% ga=
in=20
in performance. For me, I'd rather be using my machine for something more=20
productive.
=2D --=20
Gary L. Greene, Jr.
Sent from uriel.gvsu.edu
3:07pm up 3 days 13:16, 4 users, load average: 0.16, 0.11, 0.09
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
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=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=46ounder and president of the Grand Valley Linux Users Group
check out http://www.gvlug.org/ for more info.
PHONE : (616) 331-0849
EMAIL : greeneg@arklinux.org (my Ark Linux account)
EMAIL : greeneg@student.gvsu.edu (my student account)
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| |
| William Ballard 2004-03-31, 3:38 pm |
| On Wed, Mar 31, 2004 at 03:13:34PM -0500, Gary L Greene Jr wrote:
> I've seen some benchmarking on this from a friend of mine and for most apps
> you see a very slight gain, but nothing that makes it a "must have" option,
> especially when you weigh the downside (needing the time to rebuild the app
> locally). The overall gain I noted from his tests suggested about +0.75% gain
> in performance. For me, I'd rather be using my machine for something more
> productive.
The rise of Gentoo and the rise of AMD Athlon fanboys probably
coincides. Naively (having seen no benchmarks) one would assume Athlon
would benefit the most from natively Athlon-compiled code.
At least, this would drive the *desire* to compile everything myself.
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| Gary L Greene Jr 2004-03-31, 4:36 pm |
| =2D----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On Wednesday 31 March 2004 03:26 pm, William Ballard wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 31, 2004 at 03:13:34PM -0500, Gary L Greene Jr wrote:
>
> The rise of Gentoo and the rise of AMD Athlon fanboys probably
> coincides. Naively (having seen no benchmarks) one would assume Athlon
> would benefit the most from natively Athlon-compiled code.
>
> At least, this would drive the *desire* to compile everything myself.
The only packages that really make any difference for rebuilding specifical=
ly=20
for an Athlon processor are the kernel, glibc, a few of the multimedia apps=
=20
(xine, mplayer, et el), and any game that is specifically coded to use the=
=20
SSE2 or 3D-Now technologies. All others don't get you that much of a gain f=
or=20
your buck.
=2D --=20
Gary L. Greene, Jr.
Sent from uriel.gvsu.edu
4:06pm up 3 days 14:15, 3 users, load average: 0.01, 0.08, 0.09
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
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=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=46ounder and president of the Grand Valley Linux Users Group
check out http://www.gvlug.org/ for more info.
PHONE : (616) 331-0849
EMAIL : greeneg@arklinux.org (my Ark Linux account)
EMAIL : greeneg@student.gvsu.edu (my student account)
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
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| |
| Adam Heath 2004-03-31, 4:36 pm |
| On Wed, 31 Mar 2004, Gary L Greene Jr wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On Wednesday 31 March 2004 03:26 pm, William Ballard wrote:
>
> The only packages that really make any difference for rebuilding specifically
> for an Athlon processor are the kernel, glibc, a few of the multimedia apps
> (xine, mplayer, et el), and any game that is specifically coded to use the
> SSE2 or 3D-Now technologies. All others don't get you that much of a gain for
> your buck.
Wrong. Any system that spends that much time in those places is designed
wrong. Most time is spent in user-space, or waiting for io, and optimizing
for io by recompiling is a waste of resources.
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| William Ballard 2004-03-31, 5:36 pm |
| On Wed, Mar 31, 2004 at 03:38:38PM -0600, Adam Heath wrote:
> Wrong. Any system that spends that much time in those places is designed
> wrong. Most time is spent in user-space, or waiting for io, and optimizing
> for io by recompiling is a waste of resources.
Yeah, God-knows it's stupid to be doing a whole lot of CPU-intensive
tasks on your computer, when you'd much rather be in the idle loop
waiting for input.
Your second statement makes sense: your first statement doesn't.
Obviously, if an app *has* to block for input, it has to, but on modern
PCs the best thing you can be is CPU-bound. Memory-bound means you run
at memory bus speeds. I/O bound is 1000s of times slower.
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|
| > So? We're all on the same side.
True enough. I did not attempt to flame anyone, but thought some cirtique as
to what turns people away from Debian might be appreciated. However I have
meanwhile received at least two responses that are insulting in tone and
content. I would also like to emphasize, that I do not claim that certain
things are impossible with debian, or even the particular installer that was
in my hands.
Rather I want to point out, that it did not live up to my expectations as far
as ease of use goes and that in a manner that I have no particular wish to
try again.
Then again ... this seems to be more the forum for flame wars, maybe i rather
hand my ideas to someone else.
ciao
Nik
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| Gary L Greene Jr 2004-03-31, 5:36 pm |
| =2D----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On Wednesday 31 March 2004 04:38 pm, Adam Heath wrote:
> On Wed, 31 Mar 2004, Gary L Greene Jr wrote:
on[color=darkred]
ly[color=darkred]
>
> Wrong. Any system that spends that much time in those places is designed
> wrong. Most time is spent in user-space, or waiting for io, and optimizi=
ng
> for io by recompiling is a waste of resources.
huh? You plainly have never spent much time tweaking multimedia stuff have=
=20
you? You build those to get the most performance out of your software from=
=20
the porocessor to allow them to take advantage of the special features that=
=20
varies between AMD and Intel chips, such as SSE, SSE2 and 3D-Now. Your=20
argument about I/O is something you cannot take into account since that=20
relies on the type of discs/ram you have in your system. Your comment about=
=20
being in user space is invalid too, since apps rely on the kernel-executive=
=20
to run (kernel, glibc) thus optimising these gets the desired added=20
performance for most graphics design/multimedia workstations.
=2D --=20
Gary L. Greene, Jr.
Sent from uriel.gvsu.edu
4:46pm up 3 days 14:54, 3 users, load average: 0.33, 0.13, 0.10
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=46ounder and president of the Grand Valley Linux Users Group
check out http://www.gvlug.org/ for more info.
PHONE : (616) 331-0849
EMAIL : greeneg@arklinux.org (my Ark Linux account)
EMAIL : greeneg@student.gvsu.edu (my student account)
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=2D----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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| |
| Hamish Moffatt 2004-03-31, 5:36 pm |
| On Wed, Mar 31, 2004 at 11:46:51AM +0200, Nik wrote:
> I actually tried my luck with Debian first. So why did I turn to Gentoo?
>
> Well, because the Debian install process was simply horrible. I do NOT want to
> fiddle with jigdo and the likes. I want to download an ISO or a webinstall CD
> and be done with it. So I got myself the unstable webinstall ISO and popped
> into my drive. It forced me to install LILO. I HATE lilo. The thing has no
> business being on my drive. I expect grub as an option. And why does it force
> me to install a bootloader anyway? Gentoo never does that. I could happily
> keep my grub that I still have from Suse.
What's the webinstall ISO? It doesn't seem to be something that Debian
provides. Is the install process the same, or has it been tweaked and
that's why you had problems?
I don't think the pre-sarge installer (boot-floppies) ever forced you to
install any boot loader.
> And as far as documentation goes: Gentoo has a beautiful step by step manual
> on how to get the system up and running. You don't even have to dig for it.
> It is right there for you. Could not say the same about Debian. Debian rather
> tells you that they do not need a beginner like you.
Come on. Do you think that a system that insists on compiling everything
from source on every upgrade is suitable for linux beginners?
Hamish
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| Chad C. Walstrom 2004-03-31, 6:35 pm |
| On Wed, Mar 31, 2004 at 10:24:15PM +0200, Nik wrote:
>
> True enough. I did not attempt to flame anyone, but thought some
> cirtique as to what turns people away from Debian might be
> appreciated.
We get plenty of these. What would be better appreciated is work done.
If it is not within your interest to help make Debian better, critiques
do us little but register as flamebait.
> However I have meanwhile received at least two responses that are
> insulting in tone and content.
Perhaps you should reexamine your post and figure out how you might have
elicited that type of response.
> I would also like to emphasize, that I do not claim that certain
> things are impossible with debian, or even the particular installer
> that was in my hands. Rather I want to point out, that it did not
> live up to my expectations as far as ease of use goes and that in a
> manner that I have no particular wish to try again.
I can't say that I am personally disappointed in our lack of assumed
service to you, though I do not speak for Debian in general.
> Then again ... this seems to be more the forum for flame wars, maybe
> i rather hand my ideas to someone else.
....and yet there were several constructive posts made to your
inflamatory remarks. The only thing that you're illustrating right now
is that interpretation is subjective.
Good luck on your endeavors with Gentoo. Feel free to provide
constructive patches or even USEFUL, content-rich bug reports to
Debian's BTS, should you decide to grace us with your patronage in the
future. We'll be waiting with baited breath.
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| Russell Coker 2004-03-31, 8:35 pm |
| On Thu, 1 Apr 2004 06:26, William Ballard <40311.nospam@comcast.net> wrote:
> The rise of Gentoo and the rise of AMD Athlon fanboys probably
> coincides. Naively (having seen no benchmarks) one would assume Athlon
> would benefit the most from natively Athlon-compiled code.
There has been exactly one program for which I installed an Athlon compiled
version to get better performance (a movie player). It did not provide any
noticable performance benefit, and it would often SEGV. I then went back to
the i386 optimised version, it stopped crashing and didn't appear any slower.
So far my experience with Athlon optimisation has not been positive. I think
it's often better to use the most common compilation settings if you just
want things to work rather than debugging applications and compilers.
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| Adam Heath 2004-03-31, 8:35 pm |
| Was this thread an early attempt at a 4-1 joke?
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| Chris Cheney 2004-04-01, 12:34 am |
| I know a specific reason Debian is losing users... AMD64. AMD expects to
ship over 5 million amd64 chips this year, aiui. It currently costs less
than $600 USD to build a complete AMD64 system. Also, every other major
distribution (Fedora, Gentoo, Mandrake, RHEL, SUSE) already supports it
but Debian does not. Debian has a preliminary multiarch and pure64 port
but they are not being kept up to date, with both being several months
out of date. Running native amd64 code is much faster than i386 code,
certainly more than the avg 0.75% figure for i386 subarch optimization
someone else quoted. I have personally seen 50% improvement in some
applications.
Hopefully the multiarch support in Debian can get off the ground soon
before we lose too many more users.
Chris
| |
| Philip Brown 2004-04-01, 4:36 am |
| On Thu, Apr 01, 2004 at 08:25:48AM +1000, Hamish Moffatt wrote:
>
> Come on. Do you think that a system that insists on compiling everything
> from source on every upgrade is suitable for linux beginners?
I think it says a lot, that a system that [isnt designed for linux
beginners] was still more "beginner friendly" than debian, in this case.
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| Miles Bader 2004-04-01, 5:33 am |
| Philip Brown <phil@bolthole.com> writes:
>
> I think it says a lot, that a system that [isnt designed for linux
> beginners] was still more "beginner friendly" than debian, in this case.
If it's true, of course. I've heard many people comment on how flaky
and full-of-traps-for-beginners gentoo is, as _well_ as people full of
praise for how _easy_ it is.
One is inclined to be skeptical -- gentoo advocates are not exactly
known for careful studied analysis...
-Miles
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| Patrice Fortier 2004-04-01, 5:34 am |
| Le mer 31/03/2004 à 22:01, Matthias Urlichs a écrit :
> Hi, Sean Harshbarger wrote:
>
>
> As far as I recall, the performance gains from compiling everything with
> your-favorite-optimizer-settings aren't _that_ great -- typically smaller
> than what you'd gain by waiting a couple of months before buying your
> computer.
I do agree with you for most of the stuff we use on our computers.
But I'd like to point out that it could be interesting for a couple of
packages like libc and cypto libs (like libssl) to have a binary package
(with generic i686 support for example, as 686 is now at least 7 years
old).
libc contains math functions, and considering that the 386 didn't even
had an arithmetic coprocessor, we should get a significant speed up for
these functions. Plus every applications use it, so it would benefit
everyone of them.
We have something similar with crypto libs as they make an heavy use
of maths/crypto functions which could greatly benefit from a generic
i686 binary package.
There are maybe a couple of other libs/applis which could be
interesting.
As you can see, this is quite lite for debian maintainers: only
2 (or so) packages, and only with new compile options compared
to the original package (i386).
If this first phase is proven to be successful, we can later think
about some desktop applications which are known be greatly improved
by this (gimp, mozilla come to mind).
Regards,
Patrice.
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| Chris Cheney 2004-04-01, 5:34 am |
| On Thu, Apr 01, 2004 at 11:51:14AM +0200, Patrice Fortier wrote:
> Le mer 31/03/2004 à 22:01, Matthias Urlichs a écrit :
>
> I do agree with you for most of the stuff we use on our computers.
>
> But I'd like to point out that it could be interesting for a couple of
> packages like libc and cypto libs (like libssl) to have a binary package
> (with generic i686 support for example, as 686 is now at least 7 years
> old).
Oh you mean like they both already do?
For libc:
libc6-i686 - GNU C Library: Shared libraries [i686 optimized]
For openssl:
libssl0.9.7 - SSL shared libraries <- already includes optimized libs
/usr/lib/i686/cmov/libcrypto.so.0.9.7
/usr/lib/i686/cmov/libssl.so.0.9.7
Chris
| |
| David Palmer 2004-04-01, 5:35 am |
| Philip Brown wrote:
>On Thu, Apr 01, 2004 at 08:25:48AM +1000, Hamish Moffatt wrote:
>
>
With the onsite installation manual, Goerzen and associates on system
Debian guide, the dwarfs' guide to Debian on system, dhelp and etc, I
don't think that Debians' manual facilities are insufficient to the
task. They perhaps need a little updating/coordination in places, but
nothing that doesn't supply its' worth in education in figuring out. It
has taken a year for a newby like me to find /usr/doc/, so perhaps they
could do with a little advertising.
[color=darkred]
No it isn't.
But besides that,I have a couple of advanced user acquaintances that
have left Gentoo after a brief initial period, because of what they
describe as an elitest, isolationist attitude. Their experience was one
of estrangement.
[color=darkred]
>
>I think it says a lot, that a system that [isnt designed for linux
>beginners] was still more "beginner friendly" than debian, in this case.
>
>
I think that there are aspects we can learn from, possibly, but I
wouldn't get too carried away with concepts like viewing Gentoo as
'competition.'
Gentoo is definitely not a beginners' distro, it would appear from
comments here that Gentoo are probably attempting to broaden their user
base through a better documentation programme. More power to them. I
think that Debian could probably benefit from a like minded, but clear
headed effort.
As a newby, I have not felt estranged by anything about Debian, other
that the occassional RTFM type of personality, but as in any other
social interaction scenario you just restrict your interaction with that
type of personality. Some people can't see this in the immediate
reaction of personal offense, these are the ones you lose.
Regards,
David.
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| Andreas Metzler 2004-04-01, 6:38 am |
| Patrice Fortier <Patrice.Fortier@u-bordeaux3.fr> wrote:
[....]
> But I'd like to point out that it could be interesting for a couple of
> packages like libc and cypto libs (like libssl) to have a binary package
> (with generic i686 support for example, as 686 is now at least 7 years
> old).
[...]
Take a look at /usr/lib/i686/cmov/ and read openssl's changelog for
0.9.6g-3.
cu andreas
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| Luis de Bethencourt Guimera 2004-04-01, 7:40 am |
| it is true that debian has an image of being a system for computer
experts, which I might only agree in the poorly documentend
installation, I know the installation is autodocumented, but it is also
nice to have an external documentation that gives the quick steps to be
installed. after that I believe apt is as simple to the user as gentoo's
import, I can even say that to actually fully use the power of compiling
everything in gentoo you need to give the correct compiling flags,
something not in the hand of a newbie. In the other hand we have
software like synaptic which makes apt even simpler, making it a nice
gui instead of a command line (we all know how new users prefer to click
click to type).
gentoo has a pretty nice marketing of a free world, were the computer
will do what the user wants it to do, sounds nice, but by the moment
this is not more true than in other distro's like for example debian. I
believe gentoo is getting the user's because of being new and having
that image of revolutionary, some time will put things on its places.
about the compiling all your sistem, for new users is a waist of time
(in their mind) for experienced... try apt-build =)
luis de bethencourt guimera
On Thu, 2004-04-01 at 11:04, Chris Cheney wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 01, 2004 at 11:51:14AM +0200, Patrice Fortier wrote:
>
> Oh you mean like they both already do?
>
> For libc:
>
> libc6-i686 - GNU C Library: Shared libraries [i686 optimized]
>
> For openssl:
>
> libssl0.9.7 - SSL shared libraries <- already includes optimized libs
>
> /usr/lib/i686/cmov/libcrypto.so.0.9.7
> /usr/lib/i686/cmov/libssl.so.0.9.7
>
> Chris
| |
| Thiemo Seufer 2004-04-01, 7:40 am |
| Luis de Bethencourt Guimera wrote:
> it is true that debian has an image of being a system for computer
> experts, which I might only agree in the poorly documentend
> installation, I know the installation is autodocumented, but it is also
> nice to have an external documentation that gives the quick steps to be
> installed.
The preliminary install manual for sarge/sid is available from
http://ftp.debian.org/debian/dists/...86/current/doc/
If you feel there are some points missing, hard to understand, or not
translated in your preferred language, feel free to contribute. How
to get started with contributions to debian-installer is outlined at
http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-installer/
Thiemo
| |
| Luis de Bethencourt Guimera 2004-04-01, 7:40 am |
| On Thu, 2004-04-01 at 12:33, Thiemo Seufer wrote:
> Luis de Bethencourt Guimera wrote:
>
> The preliminary install manual for sarge/sid is available from
> http://ftp.debian.org/debian/dists/...86/current/doc/
>
the point is how accesible is this documentation for a new user.
> If you feel there are some points missing, hard to understand, or not
> translated in your preferred language, feel free to contribute. How
> to get started with contributions to debian-installer is outlined at
> http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-installer/
>
will take a look at it, and try to contribute as far as I can.
>
> Thiemo
Luis
| |
| Javier Fernández-Sanguino Peña 2004-04-01, 9:39 am |
| On Thu, Apr 01, 2004 at 12:14:50PM +0100, Luis de Bethencourt Guimera wrote:
> it is true that debian has an image of being a system for computer
> experts, which I might only agree in the poorly documentend
> installation, I know the installation is autodocumented, but it is also
Are you kidding me? The official stable release carries the 'install-doc'
package which is readily available, and translated to as much as 10
different languages at http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/installmanual
(which is prominently linked from www.debian.org/doc, how hard can that be?)
Work for d-i is ongoing, but when it is released it will have it's own
manual (partly based on the b-f one)
Regards
Javier
| |
| John Goerzen 2004-04-01, 9:39 am |
| On Wed, Mar 31, 2004 at 10:58:56PM -0600, Chris Cheney wrote:
> I know a specific reason Debian is losing users... AMD64. AMD expects to
> ship over 5 million amd64 chips this year, aiui. It currently costs less
> than $600 USD to build a complete AMD64 system. Also, every other major
That is a good and absolutely correct point. Our amd64 development has
basically stalled because the difficulty of maintaining it without space
on ftp.debian.org has become an impediment to progress. At that same
time, rumor has it that no new archs will be given space because there's
some problem with being out of space, and no new solution will exist for
possibly months.
Which leads me to ask: how come m68k is given space but amd64 is not?
Seems rather backwards to me.
-- John
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| Andreas Metzler 2004-04-01, 12:35 pm |
| John Goerzen <jgoerzen@complete.org> wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 31, 2004 at 10:58:56PM -0600, Chris Cheney wrote:
[color=darkred]
> That is a good and absolutely correct point. Our amd64 development has
> basically stalled because the difficulty of maintaining it without space
> on ftp.debian.org has become an impediment to progress.
[...]
Have you got a refeence for this? My impression was that AMD64 is
stalled because of technical problems at a basic level - the
multiarch-problem is still unsolved.
cu andreas
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| John Goerzen 2004-04-01, 1:39 pm |
| On Thu, Apr 01, 2004 at 06:39:56PM +0200, Andreas Metzler wrote:
> John Goerzen <jgoerzen@complete.org> wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> Have you got a refeence for this? My impression was that AMD64 is
> stalled because of technical problems at a basic level - the
> multiarch-problem is still unsolved.
Please see the amd64 archives for this year.
Your impression is incorrect. We have a working "pure64" amd64 system,
autobuilt, that substantially works. It has approximately 6000 packages
and people collaborating to work on it, but it has become exteremly
difficult to manage due to the inability to have a central repository
with access by multiple people and the ability to use the Debian BTS to
submit patches.
-- John
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| Mark Brown 2004-04-01, 2:34 pm |
| On Thu, Apr 01, 2004 at 12:33:25PM -0600, John Goerzen wrote:
> with access by multiple people and the ability to use the Debian BTS to
> submit patches.
Surely you can submit patches already?
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| Matt Zimmerman 2004-04-01, 3:36 pm |
| On Wed, Mar 31, 2004 at 10:58:56PM -0600, Chris Cheney wrote:
> Hopefully the multiarch support in Debian can get off the ground soon
> before we lose too many more users.
We don't need multiarch in order to support amd64; in fact I would
personally prefer a straight amd64 port.
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| Chris Cheney 2004-04-01, 3:38 pm |
| On Thu, Apr 01, 2004 at 11:31:49AM -0800, Matt Zimmerman wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 31, 2004 at 10:58:56PM -0600, Chris Cheney wrote:
>
>
> We don't need multiarch in order to support amd64; in fact I would
> personally prefer a straight amd64 port.
I have heard in the past that for amd64 port to be allowed into the
archive requires multiarch to be ready. If that has changed I will be
very happy, since I have two amd64 boxes myself, and know several other
people with them wanting to run Debian.
Chris
| |
| Andreas Barth 2004-04-01, 3:38 pm |
| * Matt Zimmerman (mdz@debian.org) [040401 21:40]:
> We don't need multiarch in order to support amd64; in fact I would
> personally prefer a straight amd64 port.
If it is true that this support is already there, then these files
should IMHO be moved to ftp.d.o. And - multiarch support can always be
added later, but it's quite important that we get _any_ support.
Cheers,
Andi
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| John Goerzen 2004-04-01, 3:38 pm |
| On Thu, Apr 01, 2004 at 01:50:43PM -0600, Chris Cheney wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 01, 2004 at 11:31:49AM -0800, Matt Zimmerman wrote:
>
> I have heard in the past that for amd64 port to be allowed into the
> archive requires multiarch to be ready. If that has changed I will be
> very happy, since I have two amd64 boxes myself, and know several other
> people with them wanting to run Debian.
I'm not quite sure where that came from... from what I've heard lately,
the requirement is that we will be able to move to multiarch once it
shows up. While multiarch is still in such an infancy that we don't
have a great deal to go on for such a plan, everyone seems committed to
it and I believe that it wouldn't be too difficult.
-- John
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| John Goerzen 2004-04-01, 3:38 pm |
| On Thu, Apr 01, 2004 at 09:55:32PM +0200, Andreas Barth wrote:
> * Matt Zimmerman (mdz@debian.org) [040401 21:40]:
>
> If it is true that this support is already there, then these files
> should IMHO be moved to ftp.d.o. And - multiarch support can always be
> added later, but it's quite important that we get _any_ support.
It appears that no new archs, including any flavor of amd64, will be
added into some sort of mirror space issue is worked out. I don't know
an ETA on that, who isin line in fron to f amd64, or really many
details.
-- John
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| Matt Zimmerman 2004-04-01, 4:38 pm |
| On Thu, Apr 01, 2004 at 09:55:32PM +0200, Andreas Barth wrote:
> * Matt Zimmerman (mdz@debian.org) [040401 21:40]:
>
> If it is true that this support is already there, then these files
> should IMHO be moved to ftp.d.o. And - multiarch support can always be
> added later, but it's quite important that we get _any_ support.
I believe the reason they have not (yet) is a lack of resources, the same
reason s390x isn't there, according to 111311.
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| Andreas Barth 2004-04-01, 4:38 pm |
| * Matt Zimmerman (mdz@debian.org) [040401 22:55]:
> On Thu, Apr 01, 2004 at 09:55:32PM +0200, Andreas Barth wrote:
[color=darkred]
> I believe the reason they have not (yet) is a lack of resources, the same
> reason s390x isn't there, according to 111311.
That's a pity. Is there any way one could help the ftp-masters?
Cheers,
Andi
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| Henning Makholm 2004-04-01, 5:35 pm |
| Scripsit David Palmer <david@weavers-web.org>
> It has taken a year for a newby like me to find /usr/doc/, so
> perhaps they could do with a little advertising.
Um, possibly this is just a typo, but since you style yourself a
newbie: You *are* aware that /usr/doc is being phased out in favor of
/usr/share/doc (and has been since potato), right? It doesn't need
advertising.
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| Darren Salt 2004-04-01, 5:35 pm |
| I demand that Adam Heath may or may not have written...
> Was this thread an early attempt at a 4-1 joke?
Ah. That'd be January Fools' Day? ;-)
--
| Darren Salt | linux (or ds) at | nr. Ashington,
| woody, sarge, | youmustbejoking | Northumberland
| RISC OS | demon co uk | Toon Army
| <URL:http://www.youmustbejoking.demon.co.uk/progs.linux.html>
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| Chris Cheney 2004-04-01, 5:35 pm |
| On Thu, Apr 01, 2004 at 10:21:09PM +0100, Darren Salt wrote:
> I demand that Adam Heath may or may not have written...
>
>
> Ah. That'd be January Fools' Day? ;-)
Hmm, that looks like a valid abbreviation of the proper date format (ISO
8601) 2004-04-01 to me.
Chris
| |
| Mario Girlando 2004-04-01, 5:35 pm |
| | |
| David Palmer 2004-04-02, 2:34 am |
| Henning Makholm wrote:
>Scripsit David Palmer <david@weavers-web.org>
>
>
>
>
>Um, possibly this is just a typo, but since you style yourself a
>newbie: You *are* aware that /usr/doc is being phased out in favor of
>/usr/share/doc (and has been since potato), right? It doesn't need
>advertising.
>
>
Just checked with gmc.
Followed the line straight down from the root file to usr and into doc.
Running a mix of woody and sarge.
It's taken me twelve months to find it, I'm not sharing it with anyone.
I'm going to be subscribing to debian-doc, I think I see a requirement.
Regards,
David.
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| Anthony Towns 2004-04-02, 3:37 am |
| On Thu, Apr 01, 2004 at 01:50:43PM -0600, Chris Cheney wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 01, 2004 at 11:31:49AM -0800, Matt Zimmerman wrote:
> I have heard in the past that for amd64 port to be allowed into the
> archive requires multiarch to be ready.
As far as I know, that was Goswin's thought; if the AMD64 port maintainers
want to make it a requirement, they're welcome to; but as far as anyone
else cares, they don't need it any more than ia64 did. TTBOMK, anyway.
(The stuff that is a requirement is getting close to being finished,
aiui; so you should be able to get into unstable around the same time
sarge is released I'd imagine)
Cheers,
aj
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| |
| Andreas Barth 2004-04-02, 4:35 am |
| * Anthony Towns (aj@azure.humbug.org.au) [040402 10:25]:
> (The stuff that is a requirement is getting close to being finished,
> aiui; so you should be able to get into unstable around the same time
> sarge is released I'd imagine)
Great to hear that, even if I'd like it even more if it could be
release with sarge - but I guess it's just to late for that now.
Cheers,
Andi
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| Joerg Friedrich 2004-04-02, 4:35 am |
| Luis de Bethencourt Guimera schrieb am Donnerstag, 01. April 2004 um 12:42:55 +0100:[color=darkred]
> On Thu, 2004-04-01 at 12:33, Thiemo Seufer wrote:
I'm very sure that this manual will be accessible on www.debian.org once
sarge is released.
ATM you can click on "Installationmanual" on Debian's Website and you
see the installation manual from woody.
--
Jörg Friedrich
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| Colin Watson 2004-04-02, 5:39 am |
| On Fri, Apr 02, 2004 at 03:27:33PM +0800, David Palmer wrote:
> Henning Makholm wrote:
>
> Just checked with gmc.
> Followed the line straight down from the root file to usr and into doc.
> Running a mix of woody and sarge.
It might still be there, but it's only full of symlinks to
/usr/share/doc, and all those symlinks should at some point be removed.
--
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| Colin Watson 2004-04-02, 7:38 am |
| On Fri, Apr 02, 2004 at 12:55:19PM +0100, Henning Makholm wrote:
> Scripsit Colin Watson <cjwatson@debian.org>
>
>
> By the way, is there any hope of getting rid of /usr/doc when sarge
> releases? Extrapolating from my my woody installation, it seems that
> all (?) woody packages have maintainer scripts that behave well if
> /usr/doc disappears, so something like
>
> if [ -d /usr/doc ] && ! ls -Ul /usr/doc | grep -q '^[^lt]'
> then
> echo Removing obsolete /usr/doc directory
> rm -f /usr/doc/* && rmdir /usr/doc
> fi
>
> in base-files.postinst ought to get rid of /usr/doc now for most users.
I think something along those lines was always the plan eventually. It's
much less urgent to remove it than it was to shift everything to
/usr/share/doc for woody, though, so I'm not really going to stress
about it ...
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| Henning Makholm 2004-04-02, 7:38 am |
| Scripsit Colin Watson <cjwatson@debian.org>
> On Fri, Apr 02, 2004 at 03:27:33PM +0800, David Palmer wrote:
[color=darkred]
> It might still be there, but it's only full of symlinks to
> /usr/share/doc, and all those symlinks should at some point be removed.
By the way, is there any hope of getting rid of /usr/doc when sarge
releases? Extrapolating from my my woody installation, it seems that
all (?) woody packages have maintainer scripts that behave well if
/usr/doc disappears, so something like
if [ -d /usr/doc ] && ! ls -Ul /usr/doc | grep -q '^[^lt]'
then
echo Removing obsolete /usr/doc directory
rm -f /usr/doc/* && rmdir /usr/doc
fi
in base-files.postinst ought to get rid of /usr/doc now for most users.
--
Henning Makholm "We cannot time-travel in this dimension. Everything
is arranged differently, and they use different plugs."
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| Anthony Towns 2004-04-02, 9:34 am |
| On Fri, Apr 02, 2004 at 10:45:06AM +0200, Andreas Barth wrote:
> * Anthony Towns (aj@azure.humbug.org.au) [040402 10:25]:
> Great to hear that, even if I'd like it even more if it could be
> release with sarge - but I guess it's just to late for that now.
It's not too late (or too early) to start porting d-i if you haven't
already.
Cheers,
aj
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I don't speak for anyone save myself. GPG signed mail preferred.
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| |
| Adrian Bunk 2004-04-02, 10:36 am |
| On Fri, Apr 02, 2004 at 12:55:19PM +0100, Henning Makholm wrote:
> Scripsit Colin Watson <cjwatson@debian.org>
>
>
>
> By the way, is there any hope of getting rid of /usr/doc when sarge
> releases? Extrapolating from my my woody installation, it seems that
> all (?) woody packages have maintainer scripts that behave well if
> /usr/doc disappears, so something like
>
> if [ -d /usr/doc ] && ! ls -Ul /usr/doc | grep -q '^[^lt]'
> then
> echo Removing obsolete /usr/doc directory
> rm -f /usr/doc/* && rmdir /usr/doc
> fi
>
> in base-files.postinst ought to get rid of /usr/doc now for most users.
1073 packages in unstable still set the /usr/doc symlink.
And your "all (?)" expresses it correctly, that there might be a few
woody packages that handle the /usr/doc symlink in a wrong way.
cu
Adrian
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"Only a promise," Lao Er said.
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| Marco d'Itri 2004-04-02, 11:37 am |
| On Apr 01, Matt Zimmerman <mdz@debian.org> wrote:
> I believe the reason they have not (yet) is a lack of resources, the same
> reason s390x isn't there, according to 111311.
Maybe we could remove some less used architectures like m68k and mips to
make more space.
/me hides
--
ciao, |
Marco | [5528 diE9Z5DDSWntE]
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| John Goerzen 2004-04-02, 12:36 pm |
| On Fri, Apr 02, 2004 at 05:48:26PM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote:
> (The stuff that is a requirement is getting close to being finished,
> aiui; so you should be able to get into unstable around the same time
> sarge is released I'd imagine)
That is excellent news. Thanks, aj.
-- John
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| John Goerzen 2004-04-02, 1:34 pm |
| On Fri, Apr 02, 2004 at 10:45:06AM +0200, Andreas Barth wrote:
> * Anthony Towns (aj@azure.humbug.org.au) [040402 10:25]:
>
> Great to hear that, even if I'd like it even more if it could be
> release with sarge - but I guess it's just to late for that now.
Neither of Debian's amd64 trees is anywhere near meeting Debian
standards for a stable release.
-- John
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| Nathanael Nerode 2004-04-04, 6:34 am |
| Patrice Fortier wrote:
> Le mer 31/03/2004 =C3=A0 22:01, Matthias Urlichs a =C3=A9crit :
Little did you know, it already exists....
Debian doesn't have your-favorite-arbitrary-highly-specific-to-me optim=
ized
binaries. But it does allow for optimized binaries based on the specif=
ic
processor; look at /usr/lib/i686/cmov and all that.
[color=darkred]
with[color=darkred]
aller[color=darkred]
r[color=darkred]
>=20
> I do agree with you for most of the stuff we use on our computers.
>=20
> But I'd like to point out that it could be interesting for a couple o=
f
> packages like libc and cypto libs (like libssl) to have a binary pack=
age
> (with generic i686 support for example, as 686 is now at least 7 year=
s
> old).
Little did you know, Debian has many of these already. :-)
>=20
> libc contains math functions, and considering that the 386 didn't eve=
n
> had an arithmetic coprocessor,
Debian basically requires a 387 if you have a 386; or the kernel can
emulate, but then it's dog-slow.
> we should get a significant speed up for
> these functions. Plus every applications use it, so it would benefit
> everyone of them.
Package libc6-i686
Look in /lib/tls/i686/cmov/* once you've installed it....
> We have something similar with crypto libs as they make an heavy use
> of maths/crypto functions which could greatly benefit from a generic
> i686 binary package.
/usr/lib/i686/cmov/libcrypto.so.0.9.7
/usr/lib/i686/cmov/libssl.so.0.9.7
(and similar /usr/lib/i586 and /usr/lib/i486 variants)
> There are maybe a couple of other libs/applis which could be
> interesting.
The kernel (which already has lots of variants).
ogle-mmx
ogle-altivec
atlas3-*
atlas2-*
> As you can see, this is quite lite for debian maintainers: only
> 2 (or so) packages, and only with new compile options compared
> to the original package (i386).
>=20
> If this first phase is proven to be successful, we can later think
> about some desktop applications which are known be greatly improved
> by this (gimp, mozilla come to mind).
Applications or libraries which are *known* to be greatly improved shou=
ld
certainly have wishlist bugs filed for optimized versions; providing ac=
tual
statistics would help, because maintainers are rightly wary of the phon=
y
optimization syndrome (where it 'seems' to make a big difference to var=
ious
users, but doesn't really).
Note also that the current default compilation options for Debian compi=
le
for i486, and "tune" for i686. (Tuning optimizes for a particular
processor in the ways which don't make it incompatible with older
processors.) (The exceptional package is the kernel, for which there's=
a
real-i386 version which emulates the missing 486 opcodes.) =20
This could, by itself, make a meaningful speed difference on the averag=
e
ix86 machine (though that isn't at all why it was done). This is new f=
or
sarge, so only packages which have been recompiled with GCC 3.3 will ge=
t
the benefits, but that's most of them.
--=20
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