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Home > Archive > Debian Developers > April 2004 > Re: The new broken world of 2.6, ALSA, and hotplug.
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Re: The new broken world of 2.6, ALSA, and hotplug.
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| Christian Perrier 2004-03-31, 1:34 am |
| Quoting Scott Robinson (scott@tranzoa.com):
> The mixer problem occurs on multi-card systems. The rest of the problems
> occur on all configurations.
>
> Blacklisting the drivers is a temporary solution. I don't see a reason for
> users to need to get into hotplug blacklisting and manual module loading
> when the problems have been caused by new designed to avoid playing with it!
I can confirm that problems also happen on my system. I can't tell
which problems and exactly what caused them, but the fact is that
recently sound stopped to work properly on my 2.6 system (mostly the
OSS-based, afaik) which uses hotplug and alsa stuff.
As I don't spend the whole day investigating stuff I don't understand,
I do not have more clues.....:-)
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| Martin Pitt 2004-03-31, 3:34 am |
| Hi!
On 2004-03-30 19:49 -0600, Marcelo E. Magallon wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 30, 2004 at 04:44:43PM -0800, Scott Robinson wrote:
>
>
> I recently ran into this after an upgrade.
>
> The way I understood the problem, it only shows up on systems with
> several sound cards, which I dare guess, is not the rule but the
> exception. Isn't that right?
I'm afraid it is wrong. I only have one soundcard and the same
problems (ALSA is not allowed to load its modules itself, programs
using OSS break).
Have a nice day,
Martin
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| David Goodenough 2004-03-31, 3:35 am |
| On Wednesday 31 March 2004 05:37, Christian Perrier wrote:
> Quoting Scott Robinson (scott@tranzoa.com):
>
> I can confirm that problems also happen on my system. I can't tell
> which problems and exactly what caused them, but the fact is that
> recently sound stopped to work properly on my 2.6 system (mostly the
> OSS-based, afaik) which uses hotplug and alsa stuff.
>
> As I don't spend the whole day investigating stuff I don't understand,
> I do not have more clues.....:-)
I also found that as I had discover installed, I needed to tell it not to
load sound as it loaded the wrong modules.
David
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| Marco d'Itri 2004-03-31, 5:33 am |
| On Mar 31, "Marcelo E. Magallon" <mmagallo@debian.org> wrote:
> The way I understood the problem, it only shows up on systems with
> several sound cards, which I dare guess, is not the rule but the
> exception. Isn't that right?
Yes.
And then there is the problem of multiple drivers which support the same
hardware being compiled in the same kernel package, like the ALSA and
OSS drivers.
> I just went ahead and blacklisted the ALSA drivers. I was left
> wondering if /etc/hotplug/blacklist supports wildcards.
No.
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| Eduard Bloch 2004-03-31, 7:37 am |
| #include <hallo.h>
* Scott Robinson [Tue, Mar 30 2004, 04:44:43PM]:
> #1) Hotplug has recently started automatically loading drivers via PCI
> enumeration in its init script. This alone has caused a variety of problems.
>
> Assuming hotplug doesn't load the OSS drivers first (#238694), it goes ahead
> and loads all the appropriate ALSA drivers... but misses OSS emulation.
And this cannot be solved via an "above alsa-base ..." command somewhere
in the modprobe configuration files, no?
> The module dependencies are generated by alsa-base.
Why? I always hated this static hocus-pocus to load modules in the
alsa-base script, and used my own set of modules in /etc/modules (plus
post-inst commands to load volume settings, later the aumix init
script). If hotplug manages it the module loading now, fine.
> #2) ALSA's init script is executed after hotplug. The mixer settings are
> then "restored."
>
> The wrong settings will be applied if your card order changes due to
> hotplug.
Then fix this script. It should not depend on the order of drivers
loading. This drawback in Linux (no simply useable ways to get a
name/id/... from the loaded driver for certain _known_ hardware) simply
sucks. I am glad that the Linux developers have recently understood it,
though the way they choosed has some rough edges and needs time to
become mature.
> #3) ALSA's init script then detects that the drivers are already loaded, and
> assumes this is because ALSA was compiled statically in to the kernel.
Another reason why I hated this script. Either it did not do things that
I expected or it did something wrong.
Summary: I welcome the new changes towards to more flexibility, however
they should made be in a way that bothers as few users as possible.
Asking via debconf to disable the ALSA's init script insanity would be
the first step.
Regards,
Eduard.
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| Tino Keitel 2004-03-31, 12:39 pm |
| On Tue, Mar 30, 2004 at 19:49:19 -0600, Marcelo E. Magallon wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 30, 2004 at 04:44:43PM -0800, Scott Robinson wrote:
>
>
> I recently ran into this after an upgrade.
>
> The way I understood the problem, it only shows up on systems with
> several sound cards, which I dare guess, is not the rule but the
> exception. Isn't that right?
It's a common case if you have a shiny PCI sound card, but left the
crappy onboard sound enabled and still use it occasionally.
Regards,
Tino
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| Tom Badran 2004-03-31, 12:40 pm |
| On Wed, 2004-03-31 at 11:11 -0500, Theodore Ts'o wrote:
> It's not at all clear to me that the hotplug framework is the right
> way to deal with automatically loading modules at boot time. We have
> other schemes, such as /etc/modules, which work just as well, if not
> better. (It's much easier to add modules that you *do* want to load
> at boot time, as opposed to needing to blacklist every single module
> you don't want ---- and in my case, the number of modules that I
> *don't* want to load, for power management reasons, ***far*** exceeds
> the number of modules that I want loaded automatically.)
Isnt this what discover is for? The other problem with this in regards
to discover (which i believe is part of the sarge base system) is that
the order of module loading is different, so for things like network
cards you get different interfaces depending on whether discover or
hotplug loads the modules. I also get a network driver for my firewire
port loaded even though nothing is plugged in there.
Tom
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| Riku Voipio 2004-03-31, 1:36 pm |
| On Wednesday 31 March 2004 19:11, Theodore Ts'o wrote:
> It's not at all clear to me that the hotplug framework is the right
> way to deal with automatically loading modules at boot time. We have
> other schemes, such as /etc/modules, which work just as well, if not
> better. (It's much easier to add modules that you *do* want to load
> at boot time, as opposed to needing to blacklist every single module
> you don't want ---- and in my case, the number of modules that I
> *don't* want to load, for power management reasons, ***far*** exceeds
> the number of modules that I want loaded automatically.)
Please try to think yourself in the shoes of a newbie. You, as a
expert/poweruser can easily override hotplugs behaviour to workaround bugs in
the _kernel_. A newbie will not know how to populate /etc/modules .A user
wont know which module corresponds to his/her foobar-extreme networking card,
It should just work out of box. The alternative is to have the same effect is
to run something incredibly kludgy like kudzu at boot time.
We already have an bug (#240582) to have an option to disable pci hotplugging,
feel free to help finishing the work with it.
And it's not hotplugs fault that various modules cause crash with
powermanagment, or drain battery more than they should. We should really
use more time fixing the problems rather than working them around.
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| Matt Zimmerman 2004-03-31, 4:36 pm |
| On Wed, Mar 31, 2004 at 12:52:32PM -0800, Scott Robinson wrote:
> Why not support devfs and traditional style naming simultaneously?
> Other than, of coures, the precious few bytes on a tmpfs and the impurity of
> the wrong naming scheme. ;-)
Because, as someone else mentioned, it pretty much went from "EXPERIMENTAL"
to "OBSOLETE" in one step. devfs always provided compatibility with the
traditional naming scheme, and so does udev.
I wouldn't object if the maintainer wanted to provide devfs compatibility as
an option, but I would consider any program which _relies_ on the devfs
names to be buggy (I don't know of any).
> Then can we get a Suggests for us "newbie" users? (of which I try to play
> the role of.)
I don't see why not; suggest it to the maintainer (no pun intended).
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| Darren Salt 2004-03-31, 5:36 pm |
| I demand that Matt Zimmerman may or may not have written...
> On Wed, Mar 31, 2004 at 10:17:04AM +0200, Marco d'Itri wrote:
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
> Isn't "above snd-pcm snd-pcm-oss" a simpler and clearer way to express the
> same thing?
Yes, but it's a modprobe (modutils) thing; modprobe (module-init-tools)
doesn't support it.
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| Chad C. Walstrom 2004-03-31, 5:36 pm |
| On Wed, Mar 31, 2004 at 12:08:16PM -0800, Scott Robinson wrote:
> I'm not totally convinced the option enabling/disabling PCI
> enumeration is the solution either.
> ...
> udev is not the solution at this time. The package isn't not at a
> complete state (README.Debian), the upstream software is still
> severely alpha (0.023), and there are race conditions involving driver
> loading...
Ahh, but udev CAN help with device enumeration through recognition of
serial numbers (for those devices that have them) and other identifying
characteristics. The "user-friendly" scripts and utilities may not be
visible at this time in Debian, but the mechanisms are there.
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| Chad C. Walstrom 2004-03-31, 5:36 pm |
| On Wed, Mar 31, 2004 at 12:52:32PM -0800, Scott Robinson wrote:
> Why not support devfs and traditional style naming simultaneously?
This breaks system level tools such as grub and LVM, and the current
simultaneous strategy of symlink farms does not work well. AFAIK, it's
not a wise thing to create two character devices pointing to the same
major/minor nodes.
This has been discussed quite extensively on the list already.
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| Marco d'Itri 2004-03-31, 5:36 pm |
| On Mar 31, Scott Robinson <scott@tranzoa.com> wrote:
> However, the simple fact that hotplug's enumeration occurs even in single
> user mode is another example of the core issue. When (not if) the PCI
> enumeration breaks a system, a user cannot recover without an separate boot
> system of some sort.
Then it's a kernel bug. The drivers cannot be loaded later because they
will be needed e.g. for configuring the network.
init=/bin/bash is more than enough for recovering, BTW.
> ===> This part of the packaging will be improved. <===
And it has, check the package I uploaded today. (And READ THE CHANGELOG.)
> Why not support devfs and traditional style naming simultaneously?
Why not? Read again README.Debian and you will learn how to do it.
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| |
| Scott Robinson 2004-03-31, 6:35 pm |
| * Marco d'Itri translated into ASCII [Thu, Apr 01, 2004 at 12:23:10AM +0200][<20040331222310.GA19100@wonderland.linux.it>]
> On Mar 31, Scott Robinson <scott@tranzoa.com> wrote:
> Then it's a kernel bug. The drivers cannot be loaded later because they
> will be needed e.g. for configuring the network.
> init=/bin/bash is more than enough for recovering, BTW.
>
A newbie would run with the recovery option as most commonly presented.
(single user mode, as is specified in all sorts of docs and GRUB defaults.)
That said, if something is screwed so fundamentally, they'd have to get
support from someone who knew anyway.
> And it has, check the package I uploaded today. (And READ THE CHANGELOG.)
>
Hmm. That was from the README.Debian that I downloaded today. (0.023-2)
I guess I'll have to wait until -3 percolates through the system.
> Why not? Read again README.Debian and you will learn how to do it.
>
I was talking about out of the box. But, someone else already responded why
that's not the hotest idea.
Scott.
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| |
| David B Harris 2004-04-01, 12:35 am |
| On Wed, 31 Mar 2004 10:17:04 +0200
Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT> wrote:
> This is the result of traditionally using a stupid init script instead
> of the generic system mechanisms for loading modules.
Best we had at the time. *shrug*
udev and module-init-tools aren't particularily standard nor stable at
the moment, either.
The ... err ... unpleasantness that is /etc/alsa/modutils/* is ... well,
unpleasant. That I'll admit 
> I welcome the opinion of the ALSA packages maintainers about these
> issues...
We've been talking about redoing all this stuff, but I believe it's a
bit optimistic for Sarge. It might not be, but one of us needs to look
at stuff pretty closely and deal with all cases this late in the game.
Further on, a pleasant solution would be much nicer
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| Bernhard R. Link 2004-04-01, 3:37 am |
| * Riku Voipio <riku.voipio@iki.fi> [040331 20:28]:
> Please try to think yourself in the shoes of a newbie. You, as a
> expert/poweruser can easily override hotplugs behaviour to workaround bugs in
> the _kernel_.
Well, I had to help some newbies that were bitten by hotplug. And I
personally prefer to deinstall it on computers newbies have to cope
with, as I as "expert" might now what to do, a newbie is helpless in
regard with hotplug.
> A newbie will not know how to populate /etc/modules .
I don't know what kind of newbies you are talking about. But I found
having a file where one can place names in and a directory with the names
in it and a command called modprobe to try which one it is, to be a
concept so easily that anyone can understand it, that is able to use a
keyboard.
> A user
> wont know which module corresponds to his/her foobar-extreme networking card,
> It should just work out of box. The alternative is to have the same effect is
> to run something incredibly kludgy like kudzu at boot time.
Well, there are surely worse situations.
> We already have an bug (#240582) to have an option to disable pci hotplugging,
> feel free to help finishing the work with it.
>
> And it's not hotplugs fault that various modules cause crash with
> powermanagment, or drain battery more than they should. We should really
> use more time fixing the problems rather than working them around.
It's not hotplugs fault that kernel modules crashes, or that unloading
pcmcia modules hangs a computer or or or. But these are all problems you
do not have without hotplug. And while I agree the problems are really
something that should be fixed, running hotplug is simply a risky
operation, as it exposes one to all those problems. (It's like running
over a street without looking left or right. If the drivers can't
brake it's their fault. But I would not suggest to do it at all...)
Hochachtungsvoll,
Bernhard R. Link
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| Eduard Bloch 2004-04-01, 4:36 am |
| #include <hallo.h>
* Bernhard R. Link [Thu, Apr 01 2004, 10:11:43AM]:
>
> Well, I had to help some newbies that were bitten by hotplug. And I
Then help to fix it, write bug reports.
> personally prefer to deinstall it on computers newbies have to cope
> with, as I as "expert" might now what to do, a newbie is helpless in
> regard with hotplug.
That is your personal problem. "experts" often prefer to deinstall every
automati solutions and configure manually since they know what they do.
Experts do not need hardware detection. Experts do not need GUIs.
"Expert's" are what we do not discuss here. When $newbie buys a knew USB
mouse, he is in trouble without hotplug.
>
> I don't know what kind of newbies you are talking about. But I found
> having a file where one can place names in and a directory with the names
> in it and a command called modprobe to try which one it is, to be a
- You need to use an CLI editor
- You now to need the module names
- You need to keep a specific order (because Linux sucks and there are
no good ways for applications to use devices by their characteristic
data, and the device-name <-> device mapping is not reliable)
> concept so easily that anyone can understand it, that is able to use a
> keyboard.
And you are not a bit biased, no? I guess you never had to teach REAL newbies.
>
> It's not hotplugs fault that kernel modules crashes, or that unloading
> pcmcia modules hangs a computer or or or. But these are all problems you
> do not have without hotplug. And while I agree the problems are really
> something that should be fixed, running hotplug is simply a risky
System security by obscurity? AMEN.
Gruss,
Eduard.
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| Marco d'Itri 2004-04-01, 7:40 am |
| On Apr 01, David B Harris <dbharris@eelf.ddts.net> wrote:
> udev and module-init-tools aren't particularily standard nor stable at
> the moment, either.
WTF? udev is a new thing, but m-i-t has been in the distribution for a
very long time and is definitely stable.
It would be a shame if the sarge ALSA packages did not work with 2.6
kernels.
BTW, I finally fixed the mixer settings on my system with:
mkdir -p /etc/dev.d/snd/controlC0/
printf "#!/bin/sh -e\nexec /usr/sbin/alsactl restore 0\n" > \
/etc/dev.d/snd/controlC0/alsa.dev
chmod +x /etc/dev.d/snd/controlC0/alsa.dev
But this requires udev.
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| Hamish Moffatt 2004-04-01, 8:42 am |
| On Thu, Apr 01, 2004 at 12:54:52PM +0200, Marco d'Itri wrote:
> On Apr 01, David B Harris <dbharris@eelf.ddts.net> wrote:
>
> WTF? udev is a new thing, but m-i-t has been in the distribution for a
> very long time and is definitely stable.
> It would be a shame if the sarge ALSA packages did not work with 2.6
> kernels.
They're fine if you don't have detect and/or hotplug installed
(ie some other tool that loads the modules first).
detect rudely loads OSS always.
Hamish
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| David B Harris 2004-04-01, 11:35 am |
| On Thu, 1 Apr 2004 12:54:52 +0200
Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT> wrote:
> On Apr 01, David B Harris <dbharris@eelf.ddts.net> wrote:
>
>
> WTF? udev is a new thing, but m-i-t has been in the distribution for a
> very long time and is definitely stable.
We need to worry about 2.4.x users too.
> It would be a shame if the sarge ALSA packages did not work with 2.6
> kernels.
It seems to me that the problem is with a specific combination of
software - many people were using ALSA with 2.6 just fine. That isn't to
say that there isn't a bug in ALSA, but such incediary comments are
unwelcome.
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| guenter geiger 2004-04-01, 12:35 pm |
| On Thu, 1 Apr 2004, David B Harris wrote:
>
> It seems to me that the problem is with a specific combination of
> software - many people were using ALSA with 2.6 just fine. That isn't to
> say that there isn't a bug in ALSA, but such incediary comments are
> unwelcome.
The problem seems to be that the ALSA init.d script just bails out, if
the module it wants to load is already loaded. It should actually go on
and configure the rest of the system (like doing the dev/snd symlink and
loading oss emulation). Then everything would be fine.
Actually I have been wondering for a long time why ALSA needs the /dev/snd
symlink. As these files are only accessed by ALSA itself, it should
actually know that they can be found in /proc/asound/dev.
I had the same problem when playing around with discover, I am trying to
come up with a patch against /etc/init.d/alsa and file a bug report.
Guenter
>
>
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| Bernhard R. Link 2004-04-02, 5:41 am |
| * Eduard Bloch <edi@gmx.de> [040402 01:46]:
> And you are not a bit biased, no? I guess you never had to teach REAL newbies.
Well, I'm happy to hear your definition of "REAL newbie".
I had to cope with people I had to teach how to move a mouse, with 70
year olds that could only use the keyboard because it has similarity to a
typewriter. So I can only guess that you mean a long-time windows user
by that...
>
> System security by obscurity? AMEN.
Huh? What are you talking about?
Hochachtungsvoll,
Bernhard R. Link
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| Marco d'Itri 2004-04-02, 11:37 am |
| On Apr 01, David B Harris <dbharris@eelf.ddts.net> wrote:
> We need to worry about 2.4.x users too.
If there is a point, I'm missing it. m-i-t use different configuration
files from modutils, so it would be hard to break 2.4 systems even if
you tried hard.
> It seems to me that the problem is with a specific combination of
> software - many people were using ALSA with 2.6 just fine. That isn't to
> say that there isn't a bug in ALSA, but such incediary comments are
> unwelcome.
No, the problem is that I approached many times the ALSA maintainers
trying to discuss 2.6 issues but I have never been able to find anybody
interested. It could be my fault, but it still means that 2.6 support is
at least suboptimal.
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Marco | [5529 veB2RounTrFfg]
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| David B Harris 2004-04-02, 12:34 pm |
| On Fri, 2 Apr 2004 17:25:08 +0200
Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT> wrote:
> No, the problem is that I approached many times the ALSA maintainers
> trying to discuss 2.6 issues but I have never been able to find anybody
> interested. It could be my fault, but it still means that 2.6 support is
> at least suboptimal.
The bug being reassigned was the first I'd ever heard of it. Maybe you
should file a bug detailing what you think the packages need to do in
order to support 2.6 in a non-suboptimal manner?
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