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Home > Archive > Debian Developers > April 2004 > Bug#242419: general: need for a webbased BTS
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Bug#242419: general: need for a webbased BTS
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| Don Armstrong 2004-04-06, 11:36 pm |
| On Tue, 06 Apr 2004, Riku Voipio wrote:
> If a customer thinks a web interface is easier to use than
> reportbug, she/he is right.
Beyond the trivial aspects of Debian not having customers, if you
could go into more detail why reportbug is difficult to use, that
would be more usefull than just claiming that a web interface is
better.
As a trivial argument, it would take relatively little time to turn
reportbug's method of reporting into a web based reporting form that
still used the process[1] of reporting that reportbug uses.
However, any difficulties in the user utilizing reportbug would still
exist in the web based reporting form.
Making things webbased doesn't magically make them better.
If you are still interested in making the bug reporting system in
Debian work better for the end user, take a long look at the tools
that we use currently, and make suggestions in the form of wishlist
bugs against those tools that will increase the ability of end users
to use our infrastructure.
Don Armstrong
1: Ignoring the *very* usefull outputs that reportbug appends to the
report about the local machine.
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| Riku Voipio 2004-04-07, 6:41 am |
| On Tue, Apr 06, 2004 at 08:16:01PM -0700, Don Armstrong wrote:
> On Tue, 06 Apr 2004, Riku Voipio wrote:
[color=darkred]
> Beyond the trivial aspects of Debian not having customers,
Oh, great, instead of considering for a moment that if users feels
something is hard to use, it really is hard to use for them, lets
complain loudly about my mistake of using "customer" rather than
"user".
> could go into more detail why reportbug is difficult to use, that
> would be more usefull than just claiming that a web interface is
> better.
Perception of ease of use may have nothing to do with the real ease
of use. However, I really don't know what to say, if you really
believe a terminal based UI is as simple and familiar to newbies
as web based one.
Some food of thought where a web interface would help:
1) bugs in nonnetworked/email blocked installations
2) bugs about uninstallable/unbooting systems
3) trying to spot the duplicate before filing a bug against a
package with hundreds of bugs. Yeah, you can view the bugs
with reportbug, but it as about as comfortable as using dselect.
And as a bonus, reportbug could use HTTP to send bugs, and it would not
need to ask all the mail setup questions at all. Except for reply-to
address, ofcourse.
> 1: Ignoring the *very* usefull outputs that reportbug appends to the
> report about the local machine.
Have you heard that we have a HORRIBLE hole in our BTS? anyone can
submit bugs via submit@bugs.debian.org without the usefull info appended
by reportbug!!!!!! we most obviously close this so that everyone
must use reportbug!!!
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| Richard Braakman 2004-04-07, 11:48 am |
| On Wed, Apr 07, 2004 at 01:17:33PM +0300, Riku Voipio wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 06, 2004 at 08:16:01PM -0700, Don Armstrong wrote:
>
>
> Oh, great, instead of considering for a moment that if users feels
> something is hard to use, it really is hard to use for them, lets
> complain loudly about my mistake of using "customer" rather than
> "user".
I think people reacted that way because you seemed to be invoking
the principle of "the customer is always right", which is based on
customers being the people who have money. This just doesn't apply
to Debian.
That you meant something else entirely is an unfortunate collision of
wording. You came so close to this standard phrase that it honestly
didn't occur to me that you didn't intend to refer to it.
That aside... I don't think you're proposing a useful principle here.
A user saying "it's hard" doesn't give us any information about what
it is that makes it hard. For example, maybe this user would be happiest
with a GUI frontend to reportbug, and not care about the webbishness
of the interface at all.
Richard Braakman
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| Don Armstrong 2004-04-07, 2:46 pm |
| On Wed, 07 Apr 2004, Riku Voipio wrote:
> I really don't know what to say, if you really believe a terminal
> based UI is as simple and familiar to newbies as web based one.
There is nothing magical about a character based UI that makes it
automatically more difficult to use than a web based UI. People's
preconceptions might play a role, but even a web based interface akin
to reportbug is going to be largely text based.
> Some food of thought where a web interface would help:
>
> 1) bugs in nonnetworked/email blocked installations
These should be trivially fileable using the user's pre-existing email
setup, or the built in smtp setup in reportbug.
Reportbug can even write out the report to a file so you can send it's
report to submit@b.d.o... [Perhaps it should offer to write this out
by default if it's in the offline mode? dunno.]
> 2) bugs about uninstallable/unbooting systems
See above.
> 3) trying to spot the duplicate before filing a bug against a
> package with hundreds of bugs. Yeah, you can view the bugs with
> reportbug, but it as about as comfortable as using dselect.
So please, use it, contemplate it, and think of ways to make the
existing interface better and file wishlist bugs against reportbug.
Talking in -devel is great, but it doesn't do anything to solve the
(perceived) problem.
> And as a bonus, reportbug could use HTTP to send bugs, and it would
> not need to ask all the mail setup questions at all. Except for
> reply-to address, ofcourse.
I don't see how this is any different from using reportbug's internal
SMTP setup which can send mail directly to master.debian.org. You just
need to enter your name and your email address, answer "no" for the
MTA question, and press return when it asks you for an SMTP host.
The method you are sugesting still has all of the existing problems
with network connectivity anyway.
Don Armstrong
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| Frank Gevaerts 2004-04-07, 4:37 pm |
| On Wed, Apr 07, 2004 at 10:41:57AM -0700, Don Armstrong wrote:
> On Wed, 07 Apr 2004, Riku Voipio wrote:
>
> I don't see how this is any different from using reportbug's internal
> SMTP setup which can send mail directly to master.debian.org. You just
> need to enter your name and your email address, answer "no" for the
> MTA question, and press return when it asks you for an SMTP host.
Lots of providers block outgoing port 25 for no good reason. I guess
most of these also block port 80 to force people to use their proxy,
so I don't know if this gains anything.
Frank
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Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are,
by definition, not smart enough to debug it." - Brian W. Kernighan
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| Don Armstrong 2004-04-07, 4:37 pm |
| On Wed, 07 Apr 2004, Frank Gevaerts wrote:
> Lots of providers block outgoing port 25 for no good reason. I guess
> most of these also block port 80 to force people to use their proxy,
> so I don't know if this gains anything.
Well, hopefully in those cases you can enter your ISP's smtp server,
which should work instead of the default. [Why many ISPs insist on
being totally braindead and doing garbage like that is something I'll
never really understand...]
Don Armstrong
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freedom; and the irony of it is that if it is comfort or money it
values more, it will lose that, too.
-- W. Somerset Maugham
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| Oliver Kurth 2004-04-07, 4:37 pm |
| On Wed, 2004-04-07 at 21:59, Don Armstrong wrote:
> On Wed, 07 Apr 2004, Frank Gevaerts wrote:
>
> Well, hopefully in those cases you can enter your ISP's smtp server,
> which should work instead of the default. [Why many ISPs insist on
> being totally braindead and doing garbage like that is something I'll
> never really understand...]
I do not think it makes sense for ISPs, but in some company networks
that allow windows clients it _does_ make sense, to prevent virii from
spreading out, if the company MTA has a virus scanner.
Greetings,
Oliver
| |
| Philip Brown 2004-04-07, 7:35 pm |
| On Wed, Apr 07, 2004 at 04:11:20PM +0300, Richard Braakman wrote:
> ...
> That aside... I don't think you're proposing a useful principle here.
> A user saying "it's hard" doesn't give us any information about what
> it is that makes it hard. For example, maybe this user would be happiest
> with a GUI frontend to reportbug, and not care about the webbishness
> of the interface at all.
contrariwise, if the bug is with debian installation/initial config,
then having a GUI that works "on a running debian system" isnt very helpful
to the user.
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| David Palmer 2004-04-07, 8:34 pm |
| Philip Brown wrote:
>On Wed, Apr 07, 2004 at 04:11:20PM +0300, Richard Braakman wrote:
>
>
>
>contrariwise, if the bug is with debian installation/initial config,
>then having a GUI that works "on a running debian system" isnt very helpful
>to the user.
>
>
Quite correct.
And as this particular newby has noted elsewhere,
installing it, and initialising it is simplicity itself.
You don't even have to su, you can do it as user.
The only "hard" thing about reportbug, is knowing it exists.
With the noise on this list pointing the way, I now know of its' existence,
twelve months after installing Debian.
Regards,
David.
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| Mark Brown 2004-04-08, 5:40 am |
| On Wed, Apr 07, 2004 at 09:57:11PM +0200, Oliver Kurth wrote:
> I do not think it makes sense for ISPs, but in some company networks
> that allow windows clients it _does_ make sense, to prevent virii from
> spreading out, if the company MTA has a virus scanner.
ISPs (especially free ones that make their money from terminating phone
calls) have been known to use it as an anti-spam measure. Forcing SMTP
through their servers makes it much easier to police potential abuse.
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