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Home > Archive > Debian Developers > April 2004 > The unrealistic release update
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The unrealistic release update
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| Adrian Bunk 2004-04-19, 6:34 pm |
| On Mon, Mar 29, 2004 at 03:40:22PM +0100, Colin Watson wrote:
>...
> d-i beta5 (fourth week of May):
>
> * The installer should work well on all release candidate
> architectures, and should be almost fully debugged.
>
> * Once we've had enough installation reports to know that this beta is
> OK, we'll start the formal freeze. Any absolutely necessary changes
> are likely to take place via testing-proposed-updates.
>
> * The security team will have a couple of weeks after beta5 to catch
> up with security advisories.
>
> If necessary, d-i final:
>
> * Minor and necessary changes from d-i beta5.
>
> * Release sarge after a couple of days of final testing.
>...
After all discusions, I still consider a few days or a month plus a few
days for the actual freeze _much_ too short and I predict you'll either
miss this release date by several months, or Debian 3.1 will be of
significant lower quality than previous releases of Debian because there
wasn't enough time to test the complete set of packages in Debian 3.1.
Perhaps I'm right, perhaps I'm wrong - the future will show.
I've unsubscribed from all Debian lists and except for some activity in
the BTS caused by both using Debian and maintaining some backports I'll
be quiet until Debian 3.1 is released and when I'll check whether my
predictions were right or wrong.
cu
Adrian
--
"Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out
of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
"Only a promise," Lao Er said.
Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed
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| J.D. Thomas Hood 2004-04-20, 3:33 am |
| --- Adrian Bunk <bunk@fs.tum.de> wrote:
> I've unsubscribed from all Debian lists and except for some activity in
> the BTS caused by both using Debian and maintaining some backports I'll
> be quiet until Debian 3.1 is released and when I'll check whether my
> predictions were right or wrong.
How many times are you going to resign? ;)
It would be much better if you stayed tuned, ranted and raved
about how slow we are ... and helped to get the release out.
You could, for example, help with the util-linux and mount packages
which you used to maintain and which have several RC bugs.
--
Thomas
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| Adrian Bunk 2004-04-27, 11:34 am |
| On Tue, Apr 20, 2004 at 08:33:59AM +0100, J.D. Thomas Hood wrote:
> --- Adrian Bunk <bunk@fs.tum.de> wrote:
>
> How many times are you going to resign? ;)
>
> It would be much better if you stayed tuned, ranted and raved
> about how slow we are ... and helped to get the release out.
> You could, for example, help with the util-linux and mount packages
> which you used to maintain and which have several RC bugs.
It's simply frustrating if you think that the overall way the release is
planned will badly fail, and if you work on a detail here or there, it
doesn't has a significant an influence on the whole release.
> Thomas
cu
Adrian
--
"Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out
of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
"Only a promise," Lao Er said.
Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed
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| Thomas Hood 2004-04-27, 1:34 pm |
| On Tue, 2004-04-27 at 12:46, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 20, 2004 at 08:33:59AM +0100, J.D. Thomas Hood wrote:
[vbcol=seagreen]
> It's simply frustrating if you think that the overall way the release
> is planned will badly fail, and if you work on a detail here or there,
> it doesn't has a significant an influence on the whole release.
Even if the release doesn't happen your work doesn't go to waste --
it improves the quality of unstable and testing. Stay tuned, though:
we may see changes to release management as a result of the "Social
Contract GR's Affect on sarge" flamewar.
--
Thomas Hood <jdthood@yahoo.co.uk>
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| Goswin von Brederlow 2004-04-27, 2:34 pm |
| Thomas Hood <jdthood@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
> On Tue, 2004-04-27 at 12:46, Adrian Bunk wrote:
>
>
> Even if the release doesn't happen your work doesn't go to waste --
Unless your not a DD and you submit patches and noone cares and they
just bitrot away till they are useless.
See util-linux for example. Its RC bugs too.
> it improves the quality of unstable and testing. Stay tuned, though:
> we may see changes to release management as a result of the "Social
> Contract GR's Affect on sarge" flamewar.
Its a nice Dream but I haven't seen any big changes happening in
Debian due to a flamewar, or at all.
MfG
Goswin
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| Thomas Hood 2004-04-27, 3:34 pm |
| On Tue, 2004-04-27 at 19:37, Goswin von Brederlow wrote:
> Thomas Hood <jdthood@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
>
> Unless your not a DD and you submit patches and noone cares and they
> just bitrot away till they are useless.
>
> See util-linux for example. Its RC bugs too.
Thanks for reinforcing my point. If Adrian were still util-linux
maintainer then he could see to it that the patches were applied
without delay. 
--
Thomas
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| Adrian Bunk 2004-04-27, 4:33 pm |
| On Tue, Apr 27, 2004 at 06:23:41PM +0200, Thomas Hood wrote:
> On Tue, 2004-04-27 at 12:46, Adrian Bunk wrote:
>
>
> Even if the release doesn't happen your work doesn't go to waste --
> it improves the quality of unstable and testing. Stay tuned, though:
unstable and testing are nice for hackers [1].
But they both are unusable for both an "it should run without problems"
desktop system for a friend and for serious production environments.
In my very personal opinion, at least one release per year of the
quality Debian is known for is required for Debian to continue to be
usable in non-hacker environments.
It will be a hell to upgrade all those Debian 3.0 plus many backports
systems to Debian 3.1, and with the currrent release schedule, I'd
expect problems even with regular Debian 3.0 -> Debian 3.1 updates due
to the lack of time to test the complete set of packages with the very
short actual freeze.
These are my personal views. They are relevant for me when e.g.
considering which distribution to recommend to other people or whether
I'd like to rejoin Debian. If Debian evolves in different directions
than I'd like that's only my personal unluckiness.
> we may see changes to release management as a result of the "Social
> Contract GR's Affect on sarge" flamewar.
According to your RM, it might cause a delay of more than half a year.
This is nothing that sounds in any respect positive...
cu
Adrian
[1] "hackers" is not meant negative, it's a short form for "someone who
wants to know the internals of his system"
--
"Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out
of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
"Only a promise," Lao Er said.
Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed
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| Thomas Hood 2004-04-27, 4:33 pm |
| On Tue, 2004-04-27 at 20:54, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> According to your RM, it might cause a delay of more than half a year.
> This is nothing that sounds in any respect positive...
The RM has said that the release will be delayed UNLESS he somehow
gets official permission to release Sarge with non-free non-program
content (without which permission he feels he would be violating the
recently clarified and/or strengthened SC). My guess is that there
are enough DDs who want the release not to be delayed that he will
get that permission.
--
Thomas
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| Adrian Bunk 2004-04-27, 5:34 pm |
| On Tue, Apr 27, 2004 at 10:19:34PM +0200, Thomas Hood wrote:
> On Tue, 2004-04-27 at 20:54, Adrian Bunk wrote:
>
> The RM has said that the release will be delayed UNLESS he somehow
> gets official permission to release Sarge with non-free non-program
> content (without which permission he feels he would be violating the
> recently clarified and/or strengthened SC). My guess is that there
> are enough DDs who want the release not to be delayed that he will
> get that permission.
I don't see how this appplies in any way to the points why I think the
current release schedule is wrong.
> Thomas
cu
Adrian
--
"Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out
of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
"Only a promise," Lao Er said.
Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed
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| David Nusinow 2004-04-27, 10:34 pm |
| On Tue, Apr 27, 2004 at 10:19:34PM +0200, Thomas Hood wrote:
> The RM has said that the release will be delayed UNLESS he somehow
> gets official permission to release Sarge with non-free non-program
> content (without which permission he feels he would be violating the
> recently clarified and/or strengthened SC). My guess is that there
> are enough DDs who want the release not to be delayed that he will
> get that permission.
So why doesn't someone just propose the necessary GR for the issue so we
can all get back to work?
- David Nusinow
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| Glenn Maynard 2004-04-27, 11:33 pm |
| On Tue, Apr 27, 2004 at 10:39:13PM -0400, David Nusinow wrote:
> So why doesn't someone just propose the necessary GR for the issue so we
> can all get back to work?
I believe two people just did, almost simultaneously.
I tend to favor Steve's proposal, since the approach is reasonable, and
it's not four hundred lines long offering six alternate approaches.
--
Glenn Maynard
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| David Nusinow 2004-04-27, 11:33 pm |
| On Tue, Apr 27, 2004 at 10:47:33PM -0400, Glenn Maynard wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 27, 2004 at 10:39:13PM -0400, David Nusinow wrote:
> I believe two people just did, almost simultaneously.
Right. That'll teach me to reply before cleaning out the 90+ emails that
have built up on this list over the past few hours. Sorry about the
noise.
- David Nusinow
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| Nathanael Nerode 2004-04-30, 6:35 am |
| Goswin von Brederlow wrote:
> Thomas Hood <jdthood@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
>
<snip>
>
> Unless your not a DD and you submit patches and noone cares and they
> just bitrot away till they are useless.
Yesssss. Absentee maintainers, our favorite unsolved problem.
--
There are none so blind as those who will not see.
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