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Home > Archive > Debian Developers > April 2004 > Bug#133578: gdm bug #133578. Intend to NMU.
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Bug#133578: gdm bug #133578. Intend to NMU.
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| Daniel Ruoso 2004-04-20, 2:36 pm |
| Em Seg, 2004-04-19 às 16:03, Ryan Murray escreveu:
> No patch that involves doing anything with the PAM login-time configuration
> file /etc/environment is going to be applied by me.
Ok, you mean I must do a NMU? or this mean I must go to the next step,
that would be the tech-ctte?
Just to make clear... I don't want to create problems, but this bug is
really annoying for non-english speakers, and as there is a patch that
fixes the bug (at least before init i18n be cleared), I don't see a
reason for not fixing it. If you do have a better way to fix it, please
do it, but if not, let this 2-years old be fixed.
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| Bernd Eckenfels 2004-04-21, 8:34 am |
| On Wed, Apr 21, 2004 at 12:31:28PM +0200, Andreas Metzler wrote:
> internals but a place to set *arbitrary* environment variables for
> all sessions using pam_env, including ssh, login, xdm, ...
in fact is used to be used even before pam, thats why it inherits its shell like structure in most places. If an application is not pam enabled it stall can be expected to observe this property list.
Greetings
Bernd
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| sean finney 2004-04-21, 1:36 pm |
| On Wed, Apr 21, 2004 at 12:31:28PM +0200, Andreas Metzler wrote:
> /etc/environment is not some configuration file for mysthical PAM
> internals but a place to set *arbitrary* environment variables for
> all sessions using pam_env, including ssh, login, xdm, ...
> cu andreas
which brings me to wonder, why hasn't someone fixed this problem for
gdm via pam_env?
sean
| |
| Steve Langasek 2004-04-21, 11:34 pm |
| On Wed, Apr 21, 2004 at 12:31:28PM +0200, Andreas Metzler wrote:
> Calum Mackay <calum.mackay@cdmnet.org> wrote:
[vbcol=seagreen]
[vbcol=seagreen]
[vbcol=seagreen]
> [...]
> Neither of which need to be.
> /etc/environment is not some configuration file for mysthical PAM
> internals but a place to set *arbitrary* environment variables for
> all sessions using pam_env, including ssh, login, xdm, ...
And this is precisely why it shouldn't be used for pushing values into
the environment of gdm -- its purpose (as documented and implemented
by the system) is to set environment variables for *user sessions* once
the user has authenticated, not to set env vars for arbitrary processes
that are not related to user sessions (such as the gdm greeter).
--
Steve Langasek
postmodern programmer
| |
| Daniel Ruoso 2004-04-22, 1:36 pm |
| This fixes the bug after user logs in, but not before. The gdm message
will be without locale definition.
Em Qua, 2004-04-21 às 14:36, sean finney escreveu:
> On Wed, Apr 21, 2004 at 12:31:28PM +0200, Andreas Metzler wrote:
>
> which brings me to wonder, why hasn't someone fixed this problem for
> gdm via pam_env?
>
>
> sean
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| Colin Watson 2004-04-22, 3:34 pm |
| On Thu, Apr 22, 2004 at 02:39:33PM -0300, Daniel Ruoso wrote:
> Em Qui, 2004-04-22 às 06:33, Mathieu Roy escreveu:
>
> This is exactly what I'm asking. The question is... I made the same
> question almost a year ago, and nothing happened. What should I do now?
> should I NMU? should i go to tech-ctte?
There is a disagreement among developers. Seems an obvious tech-ctte
thing to me if you're really interested.
6. Technical committee
6.1. Powers
The Technical Committee may:
[...]
2. Decide any technical matter where Developers' jurisdictions
overlap.
In cases where Developers need to implement compatible technical
policies or stances (for example, if they disagree about the
priorities of conflicting packages, or about ownership of a
command name, or about which package is responsible for a bug that
both maintainers agree is a bug, or about who should be the
maintainer for a package) the technical committee may decide the
matter.
[...]
4. Overrule a Developer (requires a 3:1 majority).
The Technical Committee may ask a Developer to take a particular
technical course of action even if the Developer does not wish to;
this requires a 3:1 majority. For example, the Committee may
determine that a complaint made by the submitter of a bug is
justified and that the submitter's proposed solution should be
implemented.
[...]
6.3. Procedure
[...]
5. No detailed design work.
The Technical Committee does not engage in design of new proposals
and policies. Such design work should be carried out by
individuals privately or together and discussed in ordinary
technical policy and design forums.
The Technical Committee restricts itself to choosing from or
adopting compromises between solutions and decisions which have
been proposed and reasonably thoroughly discussed elsewhere.
Individual members of the technical committee may of course
participate on their own behalf in any aspect of design and policy
work.
6. Technical Committee makes decisions only as last resort.
The Technical Committee does not make a technical decision until
efforts to resolve it via consensus have been tried and failed,
unless it has been asked to make a decision by the person or body
who would normally be responsible for it.
I've already made my views on this bug fairly clear, I think; but going
to the Technical Committee is *definitely* superior to getting into an
NMU-fight with the maintainer.
> But I just want to see this bug fixed. I repeat, this bug has a patch
> for more than a year.
The maintainer has repeated that he thinks the patch is wrong; therefore
I don't think it's particularly worthwhile to continue repeating that it
has had a patch. Developers are not obliged to apply any patch they
receive.
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Colin Watson [cjwatson@flatline.org.uk]
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| Daniel Ruoso 2004-04-22, 4:35 pm |
| Em Qui, 2004-04-22 às 15:57, Colin Watson escreveu:
> There is a disagreement among developers. Seems an obvious tech-ctte
> thing to me if you're really interested.
Yes, as this bug is *really* annoying for non-english speakers, I am
interested.
Following the recommendations on how to proceed to take a question to
tech-ctte, I'll try to make a summary of the disagreement, please
correct me if I'm wrong.
Disagreement Point: Apply or not patch in /etc/init.d/gdm to parse
/etc/environment and get the LANG variable setted by locales package.
This patch would close bug #133578.
Daniel Ruoso's Point of View:
The file /etc/environment is the one that the package locales change in
postinst to save the "Default System Locale". This file seems to be a
generic configuration file, that is readed by pam_env module, and that
could be read by an init script. And even if this is not the case, the
patch could be a workaround for a long-standing bug, until a better
solution be made. Note that there is a wait for this "better" solution
for more than one year.
Ryan Murray's Point of View (I'm trying to catch the things up, if I'm
wrong please correct me):
The file /etc/environment is a user-session PAM related file that *must
not* be readed by init scripts. In this way, the patch should not be
applied and a better solution must be found. This solution is already in
discussion with the glibc package maintainers.
Once we agree about the disagreement, we can move on.
daniel
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| Henning Makholm 2004-04-22, 7:34 pm |
| Scripsit Daniel Ruoso <daniel@ruoso.com>
> Disagreement Point: Apply or not patch in /etc/init.d/gdm to parse
> /etc/environment and get the LANG variable setted by locales package.
> This patch would close bug #133578.
Wouldn't it be better to disagree about the *behavior*? Ask tech-ctte
to decide
Should or should not the default configuration of gdm honor
a language setting in /etc/environment?
If the decision is "yes it should", then it still ought to be the
maintainer's decision how to achieve that behavior - either by
applying the existing patch or by himself writing code that he is more
happy with.
It might be a good idea also to ask tech-ctte to rule explicitly on
the (apparently) underlying disagreement:
Is /etc/environment intended to configure environment variables
only for processes that run in the context of an authenticated
session, or is it also appropriate for other programs that interact
with users in non-authenticated contexts to adhere to locale
settings (et cetera) in /etc/environment?
In the latter case, is it appropriate for other programs to parse
/etc/environment themselves, or should such parsing be done through
an API controlled by whatever (source?) package is deemed to "own"
/etc/environment?
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illustration of the problematic methods of technical communicaion at NASA."
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| Daniel Ruoso 2004-04-22, 9:34 pm |
| Agreed. But even if decided /etc/environment must not be parsed, I think
this must be done as a workaround until a better way to fix it is found.
Em Qui, 2004-04-22 às 20:14, Henning Makholm escreveu:
> Scripsit Daniel Ruoso <daniel@ruoso.com>
>
>
> Wouldn't it be better to disagree about the *behavior*? Ask tech-ctte
> to decide
>
> Should or should not the default configuration of gdm honor
> a language setting in /etc/environment?
>
> If the decision is "yes it should", then it still ought to be the
> maintainer's decision how to achieve that behavior - either by
> applying the existing patch or by himself writing code that he is more
> happy with.
>
> It might be a good idea also to ask tech-ctte to rule explicitly on
> the (apparently) underlying disagreement:
>
> Is /etc/environment intended to configure environment variables
> only for processes that run in the context of an authenticated
> session, or is it also appropriate for other programs that interact
> with users in non-authenticated contexts to adhere to locale
> settings (et cetera) in /etc/environment?
>
> In the latter case, is it appropriate for other programs to parse
> /etc/environment themselves, or should such parsing be done through
> an API controlled by whatever (source?) package is deemed to "own"
> /etc/environment?
>
> --
> Henning Makholm "The Board views the endemic use of PowerPoint
> briefing slides instead of technical papers as an
> illustration of the problematic methods of technical communicaion at NASA."
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| Colin Watson 2004-04-22, 9:34 pm |
| On Thu, Apr 22, 2004 at 10:16:46PM -0300, Daniel Ruoso wrote:
> Agreed. But even if decided /etc/environment must not be parsed, I think
> this must be done as a workaround until a better way to fix it is found.
There hardly seems much point referring it to the technical committee if
you're not going to take it seriously ... this is part of the general
problem and if you're referring the whole thing to the TC then they
should be adjudicating this too.
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| Mathieu Roy 2004-04-23, 6:34 am |
| Henning Makholm <henning@makholm.net> wrote:
> Scripsit Daniel Ruoso <daniel@ruoso.com>
>
>
> Wouldn't it be better to disagree about the *behavior*? Ask tech-ctte
> to decide
>
> Should or should not the default configuration of gdm honor
> a language setting in /etc/environment?
>
> If the decision is "yes it should", then it still ought to be the
> maintainer's decision how to achieve that behavior - either by
> applying the existing patch or by himself writing code that he is more
> happy with.
I do not agree at all. Such a generalistic statement is likely to lead
to nowhere, nothing else.
Be specific if you want to make any progress.
The question must be something like:
Can the maintainer refuse to apply this patch that fix a problem
while it does not break anything and would greatly enhance the
software for non-english speakers?
An answer to that question would end the issue.
The problem at stakes here is not really whether gdm should handle
i18n via /etc/environment. The problem is about a maintainer that
refuse to take care of many users needs (yes, i18n is not a minor part
of a GNU/Linux system) and refuse to apply harmless workarounds.
I think normal that a maintainer of a project leader sometimes decide
to drop some contributions because they will not make further
development easier, because they create troubles. However, when it is
about a bug known since two years for which no fix is provided, and
specifically when the fix proposed does not create specific trouble,
if the maintainer still refuses that contribution, there is clearly a
management issue.
The nature of the patch does not matter (the only matter is the fact
that it can or cannot break parts of the program).
Regards,
--
Mathieu Roy
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| Josselin Mouette 2004-04-23, 7:35 am |
| Le ven 23/04/2004 à 01:14, Henning Makholm a écrit :
> It might be a good idea also to ask tech-ctte to rule explicitly on
> the (apparently) underlying disagreement:
>
> Is /etc/environment intended to configure environment variables
> only for processes that run in the context of an authenticated
> session, or is it also appropriate for other programs that interact
> with users in non-authenticated contexts to adhere to locale
> settings (et cetera) in /etc/environment?
We could also ask the tech-ctte whether the gdm package needs to be
maintained correctly. The problem is vore vast than a localization bug.
--
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: :' : josselin.mouette@ens-lyon.org
`. `' joss@debian.org
`- Debian GNU/Linux -- The power of freedom
| |
| Hamish Moffatt 2004-04-23, 7:35 am |
| On Fri, Apr 23, 2004 at 11:32:36AM +0200, Mathieu Roy wrote:
> The question must be something like:
>
> Can the maintainer refuse to apply this patch that fix a problem
> while it does not break anything and would greatly enhance the
> software for non-english speakers?
Could you please phrase the question in a less "loaded" way ie one that
doesn't indicate your opinion of the issue? Simply
Can the maintainer refuse to apply this patch?
would do it.
> The problem at stakes here is not really whether gdm should handle
> i18n via /etc/environment. The problem is about a maintainer that
> refuse to take care of many users needs (yes, i18n is not a minor part
> of a GNU/Linux system) and refuse to apply harmless workarounds.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
And that's the source of the disagreement.
Hamish
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| Mathieu Roy 2004-04-23, 12:34 pm |
| Hamish Moffatt <hamish@debian.org> wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 23, 2004 at 11:32:36AM +0200, Mathieu Roy wrote:
>
> Could you please phrase the question in a less "loaded" way ie one that
> doesn't indicate your opinion of the issue? Simply
>
> Can the maintainer refuse to apply this patch?
>
> would do it.
Hum, I think important to mention that
- it does not break anything
- it is important for non-english speakers.
If it sound "loaded", it is maybe just because of the nature of the
patch, not specifically because of my own point of view. Anyway,
I'm not a sophist, so my point of view is related to the nature of the
patch.
But, indeed, I'm sure it is possible to come up with a less harsh
sentence.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> And that's the source of the disagreement.
Well, I did not read anything in the whole thread that contradict that
point. But maybe I just missed it. If so, can you please give me an
hint?
Regards,
--
Mathieu Roy
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| Tollef Fog Heen 2004-04-23, 10:33 pm |
| * Mathieu Roy
| - it is important for non-english speakers.
Please, for _some_ non-english speakers. It's unimportant for some as
well, I don't really look that much at my GDM login screen, and I read
English well enough that it's not a problem which language it is in.
--
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UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are : :' :
`. `'
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| Mathieu Roy 2004-04-24, 5:33 am |
| Tollef Fog Heen <tfheen@raw.no> wrote:
> * Mathieu Roy
>
> | - it is important for non-english speakers.
>
> Please, for _some_ non-english speakers. It's unimportant for some as
> well, I don't really look that much at my GDM login screen, and I read
> English well enough that it's not a problem which language it is in.
We could as well set the defaut language of GDM to French. I'm sure
there are several persons out there that are not French but can read 4
words of French.
Maybe it will annoy _some_ non-french speakers. But I'm sure it is
unimportant for some as well.
It is nonsense? Sure, it's clearly nonsense to underestimate i18n
simply because some people don't give a damn about it.
--
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| Tollef Fog Heen 2004-04-25, 5:33 am |
| * Mathieu Roy
| Tollef Fog Heen <tfheen@raw.no> wrote:
|
| > * Mathieu Roy
| >
| > | - it is important for non-english speakers.
| >
| > Please, for _some_ non-english speakers. It's unimportant for some as
| > well, I don't really look that much at my GDM login screen, and I read
| > English well enough that it's not a problem which language it is in.
|
| We could as well set the defaut language of GDM to French. I'm sure
| there are several persons out there that are not French but can read 4
| words of French.
Straw man. Debian's an English-speaking project, which means that if
you know English, you should be able to use the tools of the project.
It does not mean that you will have to know English to use the tools
(that's why we are doing the i18n dance, after all), but it means you
are ok if you know English. If Debian was a French(-speaking)
project, I wouldn't be in it, since I wouldn't be able to comprehend
what was going on.
| It is nonsense? Sure, it's clearly nonsense to underestimate i18n
| simply because some people don't give a damn about it.
Neither you nor I am a native English speaker, but I'm sure you know
there is a gradient between something being important for somebody to
them not giving a damn. Please don't try to portray the world in
black and white when it has all those nice shades of color in it.
--
Tollef Fog Heen ,''`.
UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are : :' :
`. `'
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| Mathieu Roy 2004-04-25, 1:34 pm |
| Tollef Fog Heen <tfheen@raw.no> wrote:
> * Mathieu Roy
>
> | Tollef Fog Heen <tfheen@raw.no> wrote:
> |
> | > * Mathieu Roy
> | >
> | > | - it is important for non-english speakers.
> | >
> | > Please, for _some_ non-english speakers. It's unimportant for some as
> | > well, I don't really look that much at my GDM login screen, and I read
> | > English well enough that it's not a problem which language it is in.
> |
> | We could as well set the defaut language of GDM to French. I'm sure
> | there are several persons out there that are not French but can read 4
> | words of French.
>
> Straw man. Debian's an English-speaking project,
Here we talk about Debian as Operating System, not as project.
Can you give me a pointer to an official statement saying that the
so-called Universal Operating System is English-speaking distro.
If you can't, please reconsider your arguments.
--
Mathieu Roy
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| Vince 2004-04-25, 10:33 pm |
| On Sun, Apr 25, 2004 at 06:18:19PM +0200, Mathieu Roy wrote:
> Here we talk about Debian as Operating System, not as project.
*sigh*
I don't think he's trying to say the bug shouldn't be fixed, only that
it's not critical. There's no data loss involved, the software manages
to perform its stated function. All he's pointing out is that at worst,
people often know a few English words, so it won't be that bad. After
all, if people just saw the kernel boot and display messages in English,
they can probably also cope with gdm in English without fainting 
That doesn't mean that the bug shouldn't be fixed.. simply that it's not
critically severe, something I think you would agree with. The only
reason you're so worked up about it is that the bug has existed for 2
years and the maintainer refuses to apply a patch that you think is OK.
If the bug had only existed for a month or something, you wouldn't
consider it urgent at all. That alone should let us all admit it's not
a high severity problem, just a long-standing one. And one which no-one
is saying shouldn't be fixed.
--
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loki /at/ internode.on.net
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| Tollef Fog Heen 2004-04-26, 2:33 am |
| * Vince
| I don't think he's trying to say the bug shouldn't be fixed, only that
| it's not critical. There's no data loss involved, the software manages
| to perform its stated function. All he's pointing out is that at worst,
| people often know a few English words, so it won't be that bad. After
| all, if people just saw the kernel boot and display messages in English,
| they can probably also cope with gdm in English without fainting
|
| That doesn't mean that the bug shouldn't be fixed.. simply that it's not
| critically severe, something I think you would agree with. The only
| reason you're so worked up about it is that the bug has existed for 2
| years and the maintainer refuses to apply a patch that you think is OK.
Thanks for understanding what I meant my words to mean to say instead
of playing games with the semantics of said words.
--
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| Mathieu Roy 2004-04-26, 4:33 am |
| Tollef Fog Heen <tfheen@raw.no> wrote:
> * Vince
>
> | I don't think he's trying to say the bug shouldn't be fixed, only that
> | it's not critical. There's no data loss involved, the software manages
> | to perform its stated function. All he's pointing out is that at worst,
> | people often know a few English words, so it won't be that bad. After
> | all, if people just saw the kernel boot and display messages in English,
> | they can probably also cope with gdm in English without fainting
> |
> | That doesn't mean that the bug shouldn't be fixed.. simply that it's not
> | critically severe, something I think you would agree with. The only
> | reason you're so worked up about it is that the bug has existed for 2
> | years and the maintainer refuses to apply a patch that you think is OK.
>
> Thanks for understanding what I meant my words to mean to say instead
> of playing games with the semantics of said words.
>
Indeed you should be grateful to him for backing you up, after such an
off-topic reply you made.
We talked about whether a maintainer is entitled to
refuse after more than a year a bug and then you questioned the
importance of the bug by claiming that Debian is an English-speaking
project -- we dont care, we talk about Debian an OS here.
Vince now explain that the bug is not critical: wonderful, but where
did he found someone saying that this bug is critical? Nobody is
claiming that this bug is critical. This bug is annoying, nothing
more.
But a annoying bug should not be left for two years while
harmless fixes exists. That's the point. And the fact that the Debian
project is English-speaking or the fact that the bug is not critical
does not really matters.
--
Mathieu Roy
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| Wouter Verhelst 2004-04-26, 4:33 am |
| On Mon, Apr 26, 2004 at 09:49:57AM +0200, Mathieu Roy wrote:
> We talked about whether a maintainer is entitled to
> refuse after more than a year a bug
He's not "refusing the bug", whatever that means. He's refusing a fix
which he thinks isn't.
> and then you questioned the importance of the bug by claiming that
> Debian is an English-speaking project -- we dont care, we talk about
> Debian an OS here.
>
> Vince now explain that the bug is not critical: wonderful, but where
> did he found someone saying that this bug is critical? Nobody is
> claiming that this bug is critical. This bug is annoying, nothing
> more.
If the bug is just "annoying", then why am I seeing an endless thread
about it on -devel? It seems to me it's more than just "annoying" for
some people.
> But a annoying bug should not be left for two years while harmless
> fixes exists.
Stop this assertion. Ryan Murray, the maintainer of gdm, has stated
numerous times that he does not think the fix is harmless. As the
maintainer of the gdm package, his opinion on that matter counts more
than yours, unless you get the tech committee to follow you (which I
think is highly unlikely BTW, but perhaps that's just me).
Nobody is challenging that the bug has been outstanding for a long time,
that it is annoying, or that it should be fixed.
> That's the point. And the fact that the Debian project is
> English-speaking or the fact that the bug is not critical does not
> really matters.
Actually, it does. There are far more interesting and complicated bugs
that deserve a lot more attention than this senseless discourse. Also,
before Sarge, Debian has never supported l10n in a default install as
well as it will now. Indeed, the default gdm installation isn't ready
yet -- so what? The fix is easy, for a sysadmin:
--- gdm.orig 2004-04-26 10:19:25.000000000 +0200
+++ gdm 2003-10-02 09:05:50.000000000 +0200
@@ -19,6 +19,7 @@
DAEMON=/usr/bin/gdm
PIDFILE=/var/run/gdm.pid
UPGRADEFILE=/var/run/gdm.upgrade
+export LANG=nl_BE.UTF-8
if [ -e $UPGRADEFILE -a "$1" != "restart" -a "$1" != "force-reload" ];
then
SSD_ARG="--startas $DAEMON"
Of course, he might want to use his language of choice instead of mine.
Add this to the release notes, or put up a FAQ somewhere, and deal with
it. Is it really that hard?
--
EARTH
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AIR -- mud -- FIRE
soda water | tequila
WATER
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| |
| Tollef Fog Heen 2004-04-26, 5:33 am |
| * Mathieu Roy
| Tollef Fog Heen <tfheen@raw.no> wrote:
|
| > Thanks for understanding what I meant my words to mean to say instead
| > of playing games with the semantics of said words.
|
| Indeed you should be grateful to him for backing you up, after such an
| off-topic reply you made.
It was not off-topic; it confirmed that his interpretation was along
the lines of what I intended to convey.
| We talked about whether a maintainer is entitled to
| refuse after more than a year a bug and then you questioned the
| importance of the bug by claiming that Debian is an English-speaking
| project -- we dont care, we talk about Debian an OS here.
No, I merely commented that it wasn't important to all non-english
speakers. You replied by claiming that by my argument making GDM have
French as it's default language would be just as sane. I countered
that argument by explaining that the default language of the Debian
project and thereby its tools is English, not French. You decided to
quote a single line of an argumentation out of context; by doing such
things you can get people to say more or less anything.
You continue your argument by attacking straw-men and bordering on the
edge of ad-hominem. I have no idea why this is suddenly something of
a personal attack to you, it's not my intention at least.
| Vince now explain that the bug is not critical: wonderful, but where
| did he found someone saying that this bug is critical? Nobody is
| claiming that this bug is critical. This bug is annoying, nothing
| more.
You claimed it was important to all non-english speakers. I said it
wasn't.
| But a annoying bug should not be left for two years while
| harmless fixes exists.
That the fix is harmless is your opinion. It's not shared by
everyone.
| That's the point. And the fact that the Debian project is
| English-speaking or the fact that the bug is not critical does not
| really matters.
Please, re-read the thread any to to understand what I'm trying to
say.
--
Tollef Fog Heen ,''`.
UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are : :' :
`. `'
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| Josselin Mouette 2004-04-26, 5:33 am |
| Le lun 26/04/2004 à 10:21, Wouter Verhelst a écrit :
> Stop this assertion. Ryan Murray, the maintainer of gdm, has stated
> numerous times that he does not think the fix is harmless.
I have yet to see an sample case where it wouldn't be harmless. Even
though this opinion has been expressed by several people, no serious
justification was ever given. If such cases really exist, we can try to
improve the patch instead of discussing about its harmlessness as is.
--
.''`. Josselin Mouette /\./\
: :' : josselin.mouette@ens-lyon.org
`. `' joss@debian.org
`- Debian GNU/Linux -- The power of freedom
| |
| Mathieu Roy 2004-04-26, 6:33 am |
| Wouter Verhelst <wouter@grep.be> wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 26, 2004 at 09:49:57AM +0200, Mathieu Roy wrote:
>
> He's not "refusing the bug", whatever that means.
Refuse _a bug fix_ (the word fix was scrapped god knows why).
> He's refusing a fix which he thinks isn't.
Don't be hyperrelativist. When a bug exists and no longer occurs after
applying a patch, the fix is indeed a fix. It may not be a clean fix
but it is a fix.
> If the bug is just "annoying", then why am I seeing an endless thread
> about it on -devel? It seems to me it's more than just "annoying" for
> some people.
Something that is just annoying can easily be a real pain in the XXX
after two years.
But as I wrote in my previous mail, the issue is not specificly about
this bug.
>
> Stop this assertion. Ryan Murray, the maintainer of gdm, has stated
> numerous times that he does not think the fix is harmless.
I don't know the specifics however in the message
<20040417041342.GY13742@cyberhqz.com>, Ryan does not say this patch
break the package, he says does not like the approach to get the
locale setting.
Sorry, that's harmless: it does not break anything in any way.
> As the maintainer of the gdm package, his opinion on that matter
> counts more than yours
> , unless you get the tech committee to follow you (which I think is
> highly unlikely BTW, but perhaps that's just me).
Unless you can get a GR removing the "Our priorities are our users",
"We will be guided by the needs of our users", "We will place their
interests first in our priorities", from the Social Contract, the
maintainer is supposed to pay attention to users.
More than paying attention, the maintainer is supposed to place user's
interest before his own. That could mean accepting a patch that fix a
bug that annoys more than one user even if the approach is not the
preferred one.
>
> Actually, it does. There are far more interesting and complicated bugs
> that deserve a lot more attention than this senseless discourse.
If you are not interested, just dont read. Why is there always someone
trying to explain to other they are wasting their time?
> Also, before Sarge, Debian has never supported l10n in a default
> install as well as it will now.
But we dont care unless you can get Debian stop claiming to be an
universal operating system. A fact from the past have nothing to do
with present decisions. History is a valid pretext only when no valid
arguments exists.
> Indeed, the default gdm installation isn't ready yet -- so what? The
> fix is easy, for a sysadmin:
And you think nice to force each sysadmin to do something more ugly
than the patch proposed as bugfix?
--
Mathieu Roy
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| Mathieu Roy 2004-04-26, 6:33 am |
| Tollef Fog Heen <tfheen@raw.no> wrote:
>
> | We talked about whether a maintainer is entitled to
> | refuse after more than a year a bug and then you questioned the
> | importance of the bug by claiming that Debian is an English-speaking
> | project -- we dont care, we talk about Debian an OS here.
>
> No, I merely commented that it wasn't important to all non-english
> speakers. You replied by claiming that by my argument making GDM have
> French as it's default language would be just as sane. I countered
> that argument by explaining that the default language of the Debian
> project and thereby its tools is English, not French. You decided to
> quote a single line of an argumentation out of context; by doing such
> things you can get people to say more or less anything.
The fact that Debian is an English-speaking project is irrelevant. As
Debian is a distribution that claims to be universal, it should not
require users to understand English, at all. Even if currently it
does.
> You continue your argument by attacking straw-men and bordering on the
> edge of ad-hominem. I have no idea why this is suddenly something of
> a personal attack to you, it's not my intention at least.
I do not get where you see something personal. A contrario, we are
just speaking about Debian here.
> | Vince now explain that the bug is not critical: wonderful, but where
> | did he found someone saying that this bug is critical? Nobody is
> | claiming that this bug is critical. This bug is annoying, nothing
> | more.
>
> You claimed it was important to all non-english speakers. I said it
> wasn't.
Yes, I said it was _important_. If I meant _critical_ I would have
wrote _critical_. Apart from that, you made your point: it is not
important for all non-english speakers. But that's mainly due to the
fact that Debian currently get a specific audience, that understand
english (otherwise, they probably would not be able to install
it). But Debian claims to have an universal goal: so the audience of
Debian is not supposed to be specific and things should be done to
avoid restricting access to Debian. Having an operating system
completely i18ned and i10ned is a way to make Debian universal.
Before the release of sarge, it make sense to pay little attention to
that, even if we know that it makes no real different due to the
current audience of Debian.
> | But a annoying bug should not be left for two years while
> | harmless fixes exists.
>
> That the fix is harmless is your opinion. It's not shared by
> everyone.
Please give me a pointer to a message that confirms that this bug
break (do harm) to something. The only thing against is the fact that
it is not clean to use environment that way -- there is no breakage
involved.
--
Mathieu Roy
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| Computing Homepage: http://alberich.coleumes.org/ |
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| Colin Watson 2004-04-26, 6:33 am |
| On Mon, Apr 26, 2004 at 11:34:13AM +0200, Mathieu Roy wrote:
> But we dont care unless you can get Debian stop claiming to be an
> universal operating system.
Oh, yes please. Where did that phrase come from, anyway? As far as I
know it was made up by somebody designing the web site at some point ...
--
Colin Watson [cjwatson@flatline.org.uk]
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| Wouter Verhelst 2004-04-26, 7:34 am |
| On Mon, Apr 26, 2004 at 11:34:13AM +0200, Mathieu Roy wrote:
> Wouter Verhelst <wouter@grep.be> wrote:
>
> Refuse _a bug fix_ (the word fix was scrapped god knows why).
>
>
> Don't be hyperrelativist.
I'm not. Ryan has indicated that he does not believe the provided fix is
a clean one.
> When a bug exists and no longer occurs after applying a patch, the fix
> is indeed a fix.
Are you being deliberatively obtrusive, or are you just plain stupid?
I have something else for you to consider: throw your computer out of
the window. It'll break down, but you won't see the bug in gdm anymore.
There, fixed. And you'll do yourself and (especially) the world a favour
by doing so.
> It may not be a clean fix but it is a fix.
We're not here to create a system out of ugly hacks and bad design;
that's bound to lead to breakage. We shouldn't just do stuff for the
sake of it; to quote Colin Walters:
"[...]But if it is done, we should do it *right*.
We're Debian. That's what we do."
>
> Something that is just annoying can easily be a real pain in the XXX
> after two years.
>
> But as I wrote in my previous mail, the issue is not specificly about
> this bug.
Well. Either you're interested in fixing the problem at hand, or you're
interested in fixing the outstanding bugs in the galaxy.
In the first case, this issue is specifically about this bug.
In the latter case, please take it to a different mailinglist.
>
> I don't know the specifics however in the message
> <20040417041342.GY13742@cyberhqz.com>, Ryan does not say this patch
> break the package, he says does not like the approach to get the
> locale setting.
>
> Sorry, that's harmless: it does not break anything in any way.
>
>
> Unless you can get a GR removing the "Our priorities are our users",
> "We will be guided by the needs of our users", "We will place their
> interests first in our priorities", from the Social Contract, the
> maintainer is supposed to pay attention to users.
Not that argument again.
"We will be guided by the needs of our users" is *not* equal to "We will
jump to our users' every whim". Having a badly designed system is also
not good for our users.
> More than paying attention, the maintainer is supposed to place user's
> interest before his own. That could mean accepting a patch that fix a
> bug that annoys more than one user even if the approach is not the
> preferred one.
It's not just about preference; it's about having a clean upgrade path,
and a properly done configuration. Hell, we could go the Microsoft way
and store every configuration in one obsure hierarchical database; that
doesn't make it a good idea -- not even if it fixes a bug that annoys
more than one user and has done so over a long period of time.
>
> If you are not interested, just dont read. Why is there always someone
> trying to explain to other they are wasting their time?
I didn't mean to say you shouldn't waste your time. What you do with
your time is yours to decide.
I meant to say you shouldn't be wasting my time and resources. By
discussing this horse to death and beyond, you will not get Ryan to
accept your non-fix; by not doing anything to help the release get any
nearer, you put the burden of doing that on other people's shoulders.
>
> But we dont care unless you can get Debian stop claiming to be an
> universal operating system.
You're exaggerating.
Username:
Password:
That is about all gdm has to do. Sure, the world will come to an end if
that isn't translated.
And don't tell me I'm not interested in i18n. My parents don't speak a
single (sensible) word of English; if I give them a non-l10ned system,
they are completely and utterly lost. i18n is of major concern to them,
and thus, to me; but giving them a non-l10ned *login screen*, of all
things, isn't exctly that much of a problem that Debian will cease to be
a "universal operating system" without it.
[...]
>
> And you think nice to force each sysadmin to do something more ugly
> than the patch proposed as bugfix?
Whether or not that patch is more ugly is something highly subjective. I
will decline from comments in that area. Suffice to say that having a
non-localized default installation is not the end of the world; indeed,
it can be fixed locally, and the fix is easy enough for even the most
silly users to understand.
--
EARTH
smog | bricks
AIR -- mud -- FIRE
soda water | tequila
WATER
-- with thanks to fortune
| |
| Mathieu Roy 2004-04-26, 9:33 am |
| Wouter Verhelst <wouter@grep.be> wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 26, 2004 at 11:34:13AM +0200, Mathieu Roy wrote:
>
> I'm not. Ryan has indicated that he does not believe the provided fix is
> a clean one.
I think the statement below answer already that argument.
>
> We're not here to create a system out of ugly hacks and bad design;
Sure, it is definitely something unacceptable to get the language
setting from /etc/environment (that's plain obvious, just have to read
the AIX documentation that I gave a pointer previously to get
that...), it is WAY BETTER to release sarge with GDM without i18n!
>
> Not that argument again.
Sure, that's annoying to have written rules. Things would be easier if
it was written there "the maintainer just have to care about his own
interest" or, best, nothing written.
--
Mathieu Roy
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| Wouter Verhelst 2004-04-26, 9:34 am |
| On Mon, Apr 26, 2004 at 02:26:40PM +0200, Mathieu Roy wrote:
> Wouter Verhelst <wouter@grep.be> wrote:
>
> Sure, it is definitely something unacceptable to get the language
> setting from /etc/environment (that's plain obvious, just have to read
> the AIX documentation
Cripes.
Why should I go read the AIX documentation to find out something about
_GNU/Linux_?
Will you ever start making sense?
> that I gave a pointer previously to get that...), it is WAY BETTER to
> release sarge with GDM without i18n!
What's "good" or "bad" is a highly subjective criterion. As I have said
before (you seem to ignore this, but still): according to our
constitution, the only one with any authority about what will happen to
gdm at this time is the maintainer, unless overruled by the tech
committee.
If you're unhappy about that, that's all fair and good, and it obviously
is your right; but blattering on about it on this list will not change
anything. Especially not if you continue to blatter about a proposed
fix which was rejected.
>
> Sure, that's annoying to have written rules.
No, it's annoying to have to discuss things with people who don't seem
to fathom the fact that "our users are our priority" does not
necessarily imply we have to implement every single suggestion, no
matter how broken, made by some random person backing it with "It'll be
for the best of our users!"
The social contract is a general guideline. While working on the Debian
system, we should keep it in mind at all times; and when making a
decision on one of our packages, we should consider the effect on our
users against what the social contract says.
The SC does not even consist of rules. It is a statement of basic
principles.
> Things would be easier if it was written there "the maintainer just
> have to care about his own interest" or, best, nothing written.
Well, if you think so. Be my guest, start another project; call it
"Anarchy Linux", or so.
--
EARTH
smog | bricks
AIR -- mud -- FIRE
soda water | tequila
WATER
-- with thanks to fortune
| |
| Tollef Fog Heen 2004-04-26, 10:34 am |
| * Mathieu Roy
| Sure, it is definitely something unacceptable to get the language
| setting from /etc/environment (that's plain obvious, just have to read
| the AIX documentation that I gave a pointer previously to get
| that...), it is WAY BETTER to release sarge with GDM without i18n!
gdm in sarge is i18n-ed, you just have to tell it what language to use
in a different way than what you think is the right place.
--
Tollef Fog Heen ,''`.
UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are : :' :
`. `'
`-
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| |
| Tollef Fog Heen 2004-04-26, 10:34 am |
| * Mathieu Roy=20
| The fact that Debian is an English-speaking project is irrelevant. As
| Debian is a distribution that claims to be universal, it should not
| require users to understand English, at all. Even if currently it
| does.=20
Please understand the difference between sufficient and necessary
conditions. =20
| > | Vince now explain that the bug is not critical: wonderful, but wher=
e
| > | did he found someone saying that this bug is critical? Nobody is
| > | claiming that this bug is critical. This bug is annoying, nothing
| > | more.=20
| >
| > You claimed it was important to all non-english speakers. I said it
| > wasn't.
|=20
| Yes, I said it was _important_. If I meant _critical_ I would have
| wrote _critical_.
Don't try to put words into my mouth; it was Vince who used the word
critical.
| Apart from that, you made your point: it is not important for all
| non-english speakers.
Thanks for seeing this.
| But that's mainly due to the fact that Debian currently get a
| specific audience, that understand english (otherwise, they probably
| would not be able to install it).
Even if you make Debian's audience people who don't understand
English, it won't be important for all non-English speakers.
| But Debian claims to have an universal goal: so the audience of
| Debian is not supposed to be specific and things should be done to
| avoid restricting access to Debian.
That is one way of interpreting =ABuniversal operating system=BB. It's
not the only one.
| > | But a annoying bug should not be left for two years while
| > | harmless fixes exists.
| >
| > That the fix is harmless is your opinion. It's not shared by
| > everyone.
|=20
| Please give me a pointer to a message that confirms that this bug
| break (do harm) to something. The only thing against is the fact that
| it is not clean to use environment that way -- there is no breakage
| involved.
It harms the design of the package and makes clutter in the system. I
call that breakage. =20
--=20
Tollef Fog Heen ,'=
'`.
UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are : :=
' :
`. =
`'=20
`=
- =20
| |
| Steve Langasek 2004-04-26, 11:34 am |
| On Mon, Apr 26, 2004 at 11:45:07AM +0200, Mathieu Roy wrote:
> Tollef Fog Heen <tfheen@raw.no> wrote:
[vbcol=seagreen]
[vbcol=seagreen]
> The fact that Debian is an English-speaking project is irrelevant. As
> Debian is a distribution that claims to be universal, it should not
> require users to understand English, at all. Even if currently it
> does.
Is it too late to amend that?
Debian, the Universal Operating System, Except for Mathieu Roy the
Annoying French Nationalist Troll Who Won't Shut Up On Debian-Devel.
Sheesh.
--
Steve Langasek
postmodern programmer
P.S.: Debian doesn't require users to understand English. Last I
checked, the gdm package was not part of the base system.
| |
| William Ballard 2004-04-26, 11:34 am |
| On Mon, Apr 26, 2004 at 10:01:16AM -0500, Steve Langasek wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 26, 2004 at 11:45:07AM +0200, Mathieu Roy wrote:
>
> Debian, the Universal Operating System, Except for Mathieu Roy the
> Annoying French Nationalist Troll Who Won't Shut Up On Debian-Devel.
Well, if you're *really* universal, you should bias yourself against
the illiterate :-) That's why road signs are now pictures instead of
words.
But seriously, I thought of this when I thought of signs in most
international airports. If it's that big an issue just use some icon
representing the action instead of words. Things like that increase the
slickness factor, anyway.
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| |
| Daniel Ruoso 2004-04-26, 1:34 pm |
| Em Seg, 2004-04-26 às 07:41, Wouter Verhelst escreveu:
> We're not here to create a system out of ugly hacks and bad design;
> that's bound to lead to breakage. We shouldn't just do stuff for the
> sake of it; to quote Colin Walters:
Could someone just point where is the "lead to breakage"? I just can't
see it.
> Whether or not that patch is more ugly is something highly subjective. I
> will decline from comments in that area. Suffice to say that having a
> non-localized default installation is not the end of the world; indeed,
> it can be fixed locally, and the fix is easy enough for even the most
> silly users to understand.
Ok, now I'm confused. If we expect our users to fix it in every
installation, why don't we provide the software already fixed?
daniel
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| |
| Joey Hess 2004-04-26, 11:33 pm |
| Colin Watson wrote:
> Oh, yes please. Where did that phrase come from, anyway? As far as I
> know it was made up by somebody designing the web site at some point ...
I'm with you, I'd be very happy to see that removed.
Debian is not a universal operating system. I cannot run it on a cel
phone, I cannot run it on the ancillary processors integrated into my
computer (some of which may need non-free firmware, but that's another
thread), I cannot even run it on many PDAs. It doesn't run on life
support equipment, it doesn't control aircraft, it doesn't run on 8 bit
processors in my watch or alarm clock. I would like to be able to
run it on some of those things, but this seems unlikely to happen soon,
and if it does happen, will have more to do with changes to hardware
than to Debian. It's also never been in use on any other planets; at
least Wind River's stuff can claim that; we've never been more than a
few hundred miles up.
--
see shy jo
| |
| Mathieu Roy 2004-04-27, 1:34 pm |
| Wouter Verhelst <wouter@grep.be> wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 26, 2004 at 11:34:13AM +0200, Mathieu Roy wrote:
>
> I'm not. Ryan has indicated that he does not believe the provided fix is
> a clean one.
>
>
> Are you being deliberatively obtrusive, or are you just plain stupid?
At least, I were not insulting you. Since you are apparently unable to
stay polite, there is no purpose in reading your crap any further.
--
Mathieu Roy
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| Mathieu Roy 2004-04-27, 1:34 pm |
| Wouter Verhelst <wouter@grep.be> wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 26, 2004 at 02:26:40PM +0200, Mathieu Roy wrote:
>
> Cripes.
>
> Why should I go read the AIX documentation to find out something about
> _GNU/Linux_?
>
> Will you ever start making sense?
Sure, it does not make sense at all to take care about others unixes,
when you are cloning their behavior.
Since you're in a mood for questions, will you ever be able to keep
focused on the subject of the discussion and not going to personal
attacks?
>
> No, it's annoying to have to discuss things with people who don't seem
> to fathom the fact that "our users are our priority" does not
> necessarily imply we have to implement every single suggestion
Sure, and we are definitely in this case, obviously.
> , no matter how broken
Sure, when I wrote that nobody ever presented a point where this patch
would break anything, it was clearly "no matter how broken".
Well, will you post one more time a reply to my mail completely
focused on who you suppose I am and miserably disregarding the two
halfs of what I wrote? Does it have a purpose?
--
Mathieu Roy
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| Matt Zimmerman 2004-04-27, 7:34 pm |
| On Mon, Apr 26, 2004 at 08:46:54PM -0400, Joey Hess wrote:
> Colin Watson wrote:
>
> I'm with you, I'd be very happy to see that removed.
>
> Debian is not a universal operating system. I cannot run it on a cel
> phone, I cannot run it on the ancillary processors integrated into my
> computer (some of which may need non-free firmware, but that's another
> thread), I cannot even run it on many PDAs. It doesn't run on life
> support equipment, it doesn't control aircraft, it doesn't run on 8 bit
> processors in my watch or alarm clock. I would like to be able to
> run it on some of those things, but this seems unlikely to happen soon,
> and if it does happen, will have more to do with changes to hardware
> than to Debian. It's also never been in use on any other planets; at
> least Wind River's stuff can claim that; we've never been more than a
> few hundred miles up.
Agreed; this isn't the first time there has been a discussion like this
about that phrase. What needs to be done in order to have it removed?
Does someone need to come up with a replacement slogan?
--
- mdz
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