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| Herbert Xu 2004-05-04, 6:34 pm |
| Denis Barbier <barbier@linuxfr.org> wrote:
>
> KDE control center in Debian displays Taiwanese flag, so you should
> certainly resign from Debian and join Fedora. Well I did not check
> if Fedora still censors it, but as Red Hat did, there is little
> chance that this has changed.
So be it.
Free software extremists I can live with. But this is too much.
I will resign from this project in two weeks time.
In the mean, please send me offers to maintain my packages in *private*.
Any packages which are not claimed for in two weeks time will be orphaned
and th usual rules shall apply.
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| Anibal Monsalve Salazar 2004-05-04, 8:34 pm |
| On Wed, May 05, 2004 at 08:07:55AM +1000, Herbert Xu wrote:
>Denis Barbier <barbier@linuxfr.org> wrote:
>
>So be it.
>
>Free software extremists I can live with. But this is too much.
This message starts a new thread and I cannot see clearly the reason
for your reaction.
>I will resign from this project in two weeks time.
Please reconsider your decision. It will be very unfortunate to see you
leaving the project.
>In the mean, please send me offers to maintain my packages in *private*.
>Any packages which are not claimed for in two weeks time will be orphaned
>and th usual rules shall apply.
Anibal Monsalve Salazar
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| |
| Jamin W. Collins 2004-05-04, 10:34 pm |
| On Wed, May 05, 2004 at 09:34:41AM +1000, Anibal Monsalve Salazar wrote:
> On Wed, May 05, 2004 at 08:07:55AM +1000, Herbert Xu wrote:
>
> This message starts a new thread and I cannot see clearly the reason
> for your reaction.
This thread appears to start on debian-boot here:
http://lists.debian.org/debian-boot...5/msg00205.html
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Jamin W. Collins
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| Javier Fernández-Sanguino Peña 2004-05-05, 4:34 am |
| On Wed, May 05, 2004 at 08:07:55AM +1000, Herbert Xu wrote:
> Denis Barbier <barbier@linuxfr.org> wrote:
WTF have you done translators? You've converted a non-issue (a translation)
into a political statement (Taiwan independent?) into a bigger problem for
Debian (kernel maintenance). You're not the only one to blame here (other
translators at debian-boot are to blame for this issue) but you've allowed
things to get out of hand.
So, please, Christian, explain this:
[vbcol=seagreen]
> Because, imho, this is a case where we plan to deviate from a
> standard. We have strong arguments for doing this, most of them being
> motivated by the Debian Social Contract (make our possible to benefit
> our users), and I think they will be even stronger if they are
> accepted to Debian Technical Comittee.
[http://lists.debian.org/debian-boot...5/msg00290.html]
What _technical_ advantage to our users does this deviation from the
standard introduce? I just don't see it. Feel free to ask for a change in
the standard, if needed be, not in the name of the Debian project (unless
you are empowered somehow to do so).
Last time I looked, Debian did not had any political bias. And now it shows
up, hurting our ability to do technical work.
Nice job.
Javier
| |
| Christian Perrier 2004-05-05, 4:34 am |
| Quoting Javier Fernández-Sanguino Peña (jfs@computer.org):
> WTF have you done translators? You've converted a non-issue (a translation)
> into a political statement (Taiwan independent?) into a bigger problem for
> Debian (kernel maintenance). You're not the only one to blame here (other
> translators at debian-boot are to blame for this issue) but you've allowed
> things to get out of hand.
I'm a bit surprised by your vision of these things. It appears that
you see this problem as coming from translators.
Up to now, the issue of the Taiwan country name has the following
background, to my understanding:
-d-i uses iso-codes for country names and translations
-iso-codes uses ISO-3166 as a reference
-one entry in ISO-3166 appears to hurt the sensitivity of some Debian
users and contributors
-we (everyone_: d-i team, Chinese people, other DD's) try to explore
all possible solutions for keeping both our commitment to standards
and our users happy
-possible solutions are currently explored
-Herbert announces he want to resign because during discussions the
possibility of replacing the offending name has been mentioned
As I already wrote in another mail in this thread (the mail was less
highly crossposted than this one, especially not in -devel), I think
this reaction is way too important and far too early.
I do not see any specific actions from translators for ending in this
situation. It mostly looks like overreacting to something that even
DID NOT HAPPEN is to be blamed here.
> So, please, Christian, explain this:
>
> [http://lists.debian.org/debian-boot...5/msg00290.html]
>
> What _technical_ advantage to our users does this deviation from the
> standard introduce? I just don't see it. Feel free to ask for a change in
No technical advantage, of course. My feeling is that deliberately
deviating from a standard has to get some validation somewhere. I do
not feel authorized (or Alastair who is the iso-codes package
maintainer) to do this, if I decide to do so (WHICH NEITHER I NOR
ALASTAIR DID....look at fr.po for the iso_3166 list), only based on my
own opinion.
If you think the Technical Commitee is inappropriate for this, I may
understand. But then, we will have to find some validation structure.
> the standard, if needed be, not in the name of the Debian project (unless
> you are empowered somehow to do so).
This is part of the current actions, see the thread. A proposal for
specifically asking the ISO-3166-MA on this issue has been made,
because it seems to appear that they aren't clear on this topic.
>
> Last time I looked, Debian did not had any political bias. And now it shows
> up, hurting our ability to do technical work.
>
> Nice job.
I absolutely do not appreciate being accused of bringing a political
bias on this topic. If you look back, you won't see any such action
from myself for this. A non technical issue has been raised by some of
our users and we're trying to find a possible solution for it. I do
have my own opinion and I have made my possible for not pushing it
behind to much, that's all.
All this involves some discussion between people who feel
concerned. This discussion is still happening. No conlusion has been
made yet and I'm not even sure that there is a solution which will
satisfy everyone.
So, I have no idea of which "nice job" we (and specifically myself)
have made.
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| Alastair McKinstry 2004-05-05, 5:34 am |
| Please can we focus on how to de-escalate this issue?
Herbert, why precisely are you resigning? is it because,
as was pointed out elsewhere, Debian includes flags for Taiwan,
implicitly supporting Taiwanese independence? Thank you
for giving two weeks notice; hopefully we can use this to
come up with a solution.
As was pointed out elsewhere on the list, there are a bunch of
programs that include flags, and lists of countries, within
Debian. This could be refactored into a single collection
(in a single directory).
I think we should look at POSIX locales as a model: it is
basically impossible to come up with a set of countries / territories that does
not offend someone. In the POSIX locales model, they managed to sidestep this
issue by _not_ generating a list of territories, but creating a model where
users
could add their own with 'localeconf'. While we ship a bunch of
locales in the locales package, we don't claim that they are
definitive and users can change them.
I created the iso-codes package to refactor the multiple lists of countries,
languages and their translations present in
GNU/Linux, to avoid wasting space and add consistentcy. Unfortunately the approach
taken does create a
list which purports to be definitive, and causes this conflict.
I am willing to reconsider how to do this. Possible solutions
include:
- Generating any list of countries/languages from the installed
locales
- refactoring programs to use flags in, eg. /usr/share/flags
which a user can edit (either by hand or installing
a package (eg. elbonian-independence.deb, complete
with Elbonian locale and flag and translations ...)
This doesn't solve the debian-installer list problem; hopefully
the countrychooser (choose language then country) compromise
there will suffice.
All constructive suggestions welcome, (though please don't
make any such work another gating issue for Sarge :-)
Regards,
Alastair McKinstry
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| Josip Rodin 2004-05-05, 5:35 am |
| On Wed, May 05, 2004 at 08:07:55AM +1000, Herbert Xu wrote:
> Free software extremists I can live with. But this is too much.
> I will resign from this project in two weeks time.
[earlier quote:]
> If this is your attitude, then I shall resign this project. I do not
> wish to be associated with people who're actively working towards the
> independence of Taiwan.
After everything, Xu quits Debian because of *nationalism*!
Excuse me now as I go away and laugh my XXX off.
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| Anton Zinoviev 2004-05-05, 6:34 am |
| On 5.V.2004 at 11:37 (+0200) Josip Rodin wrote:
>
> After everything, Xu quits Debian because of *nationalism*!
> Excuse me now as I go away and laugh my XXX off.
Probably things are more complicated than they seam to be. AFAIK
there are many people (a majority?) in Taiwan that do not want
independence from China (of course they want independence from Peoples
Republic of China). Both in P.R.of China and Taiwan R.O.C there are
many people that do not want se see the breakage irreversible. On the
other hand after so many years, naturaly in Taiwan there are people
that want their own independent country forever. I am not sure
whether people that belong to "stable" nations and states from ages
can understand how sore can be the present processes in Taiwan for the
people in the both parts of China.
So it is probably not just a nationalism (in the way I understand this
word) but a matter of the real life.
I am not sure if Debian is able to find a compromise but it seams to
me that the following statement is acceptable for the people in Taiwan
and less unacceptable for the people in P.R. of China: "Taiwan is part
of China, but it is not part of P.R. of China." Not sure if it is
possible to find a short teritory name with this semantics.
By the way the name of Hong Kong in debian-installer is "Hong Kong"
and nobody objected that this means that Hong Kong is independent from
China. Why it should be different with Taiwan?
Anton Zinoviev
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| Hugo Wau 2004-05-05, 8:34 am |
| Am Mit, 2004-05-05 um 11.37 schrieb Josip Rodin:
> On Wed, May 05, 2004 at 08:07:55AM +1000, Herbert Xu wrote:
> [earlier quote:]
>
> After everything, Xu quits Debian because of *nationalism*!
Is it necessary at all, to use names of political systems like names of
states? Would it not be better, to use unpolitical names of geological
formations eg. "Island Taiwan"?
People keep migrating and political systems come and go. Names of states
and citys are changing throughout the world. Names of islands, mountains
and rivers will stay for much longer time periods.
I love the work, Herbert has done and I would miss him.
Hugo
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| Steve Langasek 2004-05-05, 10:42 am |
| On Wed, May 05, 2004 at 01:57:21PM +0200, Hugo Wau wrote:
> Am Mit, 2004-05-05 um 11.37 schrieb Josip Rodin:
[vbcol=seagreen]
[vbcol=seagreen]
> Is it necessary at all, to use names of political systems like names of
> states? Would it not be better, to use unpolitical names of geological
> formations eg. "Island Taiwan"?
> People keep migrating and political systems come and go. Names of states
> and citys are changing throughout the world. Names of islands, mountains
> and rivers will stay for much longer time periods.
> I love the work, Herbert has done and I would miss him.
The name people are asking to have listed in the Debian installer is
"Taiwan". Please explain how this is a politically-charged name.
--
Steve Langasek
postmodern programmer
| |
| Hamish Moffatt 2004-05-05, 10:42 am |
| On Wed, May 05, 2004 at 01:57:21PM +0200, Hugo Wau wrote:
> Is it necessary at all, to use names of political systems like names of
> states? Would it not be better, to use unpolitical names of geological
> formations eg. "Island Taiwan"?
The list seems quite inconsistent.
There are several external territories of Australia with their own
ISO3166 codes; .cx (Christmas Island), .cc (Cocos (Keeling) Islands),
..hm (Heard Island in Antartica) and .nf (Norfolk Island) though none of
these are listed as "X, territory of Australia".
There are LOTS of external territories of France and the USA with their
own codes. http://www.geocities.com/jusjih/iso3166-en.html has some
information; see "Areas".
The entry for Taiwan seems quite inconsistent then.
The CIA world fact book has Taiwan listed last, out of alphabetical
order. How odd.
Hamish
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| Hamish Moffatt 2004-05-05, 10:42 am |
| On Wed, May 05, 2004 at 08:45:43AM -0500, Steve Langasek wrote:
> The name people are asking to have listed in the Debian installer is
> "Taiwan". Please explain how this is a politically-charged name.
Apparently the situation is politically charged because it's the only
entry where we differ from the ISO 3166 list.
http://www.iso.ch/iso/en/prods-serv...s/list-en1.html
I suspect that if we started from scratch and put .tw => "Taiwan"
there'd be no issue.
Hamish
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| Jean-Michel POURE 2004-05-05, 10:42 am |
| > The name people are asking to have listed in the Debian installer is
> "Taiwan". Please explain how this is a politically-charged name.
Ta=C3=AFwan is not part of the United-Nations for historical reasons, since=
China=20
took the place of its reprentatives in the United-Nations. Ta=C3=AFwan is n=
ot a=20
recognized state. The Ta=C3=AFwanese flag does not have international recog=
nition. =20
=46or example, you will hardly find a single legal Ta=C3=AFwan ambassy in t=
he world.
But, keep in mind that localisation is mostly adapting each software to the=
=20
locale habits and practices. In the case of Ta=C3=AFwan, the choice should =
be left=20
to the Ta=C3=AFwanese representatives of Debian.
Regards,
Jean-Michel Pour=C3=A9
| |
| Wang WenRui 2004-05-05, 10:42 am |
| Around 08 o'clock on 05 May, Steve Langasek wrote:
> On Wed, May 05, 2004 at 01:57:21PM +0200, Hugo Wau wrote:
> The name people are asking to have listed in the Debian installer is
Just *some* people do. Some of these people started a large thread in
debian-devel, debian-boot and debian-users here several weeks ago, IIRC.
> "Taiwan". Please explain how this is a politically-charged name.
The 2nd screen of d-i:
/---------------------[Choose *country*]-----------------\
| Choose your country: |
| |
| China |
| Hong Kong |
| Taiwan |
| |
| |
\_______________________________________
________________/
This is ridiculous. Nobody calls Hong Kong a country. When it comes to
Taiwan: Taiwan is a province of Republic of China and The People's
Republic of China considers Taiwan part of its sovereign territory[1].
Now something about the independence movement[2]:
It is a political movement whose goal is to create a sovereign, independent
Republic of Taiwan out of the lands currently administered by the
Republic of China. It is supported by the pan-green coalition on Taiwan
and opposed by the pan-blue coalition and the People's Republic of
China, which favor Chinese reunification.
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan_independence
| |
| Shawn McMahon 2004-05-05, 11:34 am |
| On Wed, May 05, 2004 at 11:56:28PM +1000, Hamish Moffatt said:
>
> The CIA world fact book has Taiwan listed last, out of alphabetical
> order. How odd.
Odd, but not relevant. The US doesn't officially recognize Taiwan as
a country, and the Fact Book isn't a standard or even standards-based;
it's a tool intended for use by government employees, and extended
to others as a public-relations issue.
Quietly listing Taiwan last, but without any verbiage proclaiming it to
be part of China, allows Beijing to save face. This is a very important
consideration for the US.
However, it is absolutely not relevant for Debian. Pick a standard and
stick with it. Deviate from it only for documented, compelling
technical reasons. Anything else is meddling in politics, and while I
encourage Debian developers to meddle in politics, Debian the project
should not, and should not be used as a forum to do so, except in the
case of those political issues that are codified in the Social Contract.
Just my opinion, as a user of Debian.
--
Shawn McMahon | "Tell the American people never to lose their guns.
EIV Consulting | As long as they keep their guns in their hands, what
UNIX and Linux | happened here will never happen there." - A female
http://www.eiv.com | student from Beijing, China
| |
| Andreas Barth 2004-05-05, 11:34 am |
| * Jean-Michel POURE (jm@poure.com) [040505 16:55]:
> But, keep in mind that localisation is mostly adapting each software to the
> locale habits and practices. In the case of Taïwan, the choice should be left
> to the Taïwanese representatives of Debian.
Our only Developer there said he prefers "Taiwan" as name. This
settled the case for me, total independend of any of my private
opinions on this matter.
Cheers,
Andi
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| Scott James Remnant 2004-05-05, 11:34 am |
| On Wed, 2004-05-05 at 08:07 +1000, Herbert Xu wrote:
> Denis Barbier <barbier@linuxfr.org> wrote:
>
> So be it.
>
> Free software extremists I can live with. But this is too much.
> I will resign from this project in two weeks time.
>
*cough*
Why are you resigning in "two weeks time" ? Traditionally when one
tantrums, one throws one's toys out of the pram as hard and fast as one
possibly can. An immediate resignation and orphaning of all packages
tends to take place. Adrian and Bruce have demonstrated how to do this
superbly many times.
Perhaps you're bluffing and hoping that the shock announcement of your
resignation will cause those who have offended you to stop doing so and
follow your wishes in the matter?
Or maybe you're hoping that by giving everyone some time, they'll be
sufficient "DON'T DO IT!" mails that you can publicly state that you
persuaded to run^Wcome back by overwhelming public support?
Amused of Birmingham
--
Have you ever, ever felt like this?
Had strange things happen? Are you going round the twist?
| |
| Domenico Andreoli 2004-05-05, 12:34 pm |
| On Wed, May 05, 2004 at 04:29:00PM +0100, Scott James Remnant wrote:
> On Wed, 2004-05-05 at 08:07 +1000, Herbert Xu wrote:
>
....
[vbcol=seagreen]
> Perhaps you're bluffing and hoping that the shock announcement of your
> resignation will cause those who have offended you to stop doing so and
> follow your wishes in the matter?
>
> Or maybe you're hoping that by giving everyone some time, they'll be
> sufficient "DON'T DO IT!" mails that you can publicly state that you
> persuaded to run^Wcome back by overwhelming public support?
whatever is the reason i sincerely hope Herber remains in debian. it
is always sad to see someone going away... and Herbert is surely one
of those contributing a lot to the project.
dom
-----[ Domenico Andreoli, aka cavok
--[ http://people.debian.org/~cavok/gpgkey.asc
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| Petter Reinholdtsen 2004-05-05, 12:34 pm |
| [Jean-Michel POURE]
> You are right to notice that the word "country" should be changed. I
> don't know the installer enough to make a proposal, but "location"
> seems more appropriate.
Yes, "country" in that context is not very accurate.
I believe locale names specify the second part of a locale to mean
country or region. See <URL:http://rfc.sunsite.dk/rfc/rfc3066.html>
for info on this part.
As the listing is in fact a map from the second part of locales to
names, it should probably ask the user to select "country or region".
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| Martin Michlmayr 2004-05-05, 12:34 pm |
| * Scott James Remnant <scott@netsplit.com> [2004-05-05 16:29]:
> Why are you resigning in "two weeks time" ? Traditionally when one
....
> Amused of Birmingham
Can you please all stop being so damn hostile to each other?
--
Martin Michlmayr
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| Eike \zyro\ Sauer 2004-05-05, 1:34 pm |
| X-Original-Sender: news <news@sea.gmane.org>
X-Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org
Xref: number1.nntp.ash.giganews.com linux.debian.devel:147744
Wang WenRui schrieb:
> Taiwan is a province of Republic of China
[...]
> which favor Chinese reunification.
How could a province of a republic possibly be reunited
with the republic itself? There seems to be some more to
Taiwan but being a republic of China following your wording...
But anyway, I think, "Taiwan" (or perhaps "Island Taiwan")
is neutral enough to let the Chinese people think of it as
a part of China while Taiwanese (sp?) can think of it as
being independent. No such thing as "Taiwan, which is just
a dependent part of China" or "Taiwan, very independet of
any other country in the world", just neutrally... "Taiwan".
Ciao,
________________Eike
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| Steve Langasek 2004-05-05, 2:34 pm |
| On Wed, May 05, 2004 at 04:27:39PM +0200, Jean-Michel POURE wrote:
[vbcol=seagreen]
> Taïwan is not part of the United-Nations for historical reasons, since China
> took the place of its reprentatives in the United-Nations. Taïwan is not a
> recognized state. The Taïwanese flag does not have international recognition.
> For example, you will hardly find a single legal Taïwan ambassy in the world.
So? The question was not whether Taiwan should be recognized as a
sovereign nation. There are lots of locations listed in d-i that are
not countries, notwithstanding the current (buggy, IMHO) request to
"choose a country". I don't think there's any controversy about having
Taiwan *listed* in the installer; there are obviously differences
between Taiwan and mainland China (e.g., use of traditional vs.
simplified Chinese) that must be acknowledged if the software is to be
useful to our users in that region.
The question was, why is calling Taiwan "Taiwan" controversial? Even
those objecting to the supposed bias have talked about "working towards
the independence of Taiwan", not "working towards the independence of
Taiwan, Province of China".
--
Steve Langasek
postmodern programmer
| |
| Florian Weimer 2004-05-05, 2:34 pm |
| * Alastair McKinstry:
> As was pointed out elsewhere on the list, there are a bunch of
> programs that include flags, and lists of countries, within
> Debian. This could be refactored into a single collection
> (in a single directory).
We could remove those flags alltogether.
Microsoft once had a similar problem with the time zone selection
dialog. It showed the borders of time zones, which some times matched
borders of countries. Fierce discussions resulted because some of
those borders were disputed. As a result, Microsoft changed the
dialogue not to indicate the borders.
As far as I know, Microsoft products do not display any flags (maybe
some flags are shipped as clip-art, though). Perhaps this is a wise
decision.
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| Francesco Paolo Lovergine 2004-05-05, 2:34 pm |
| On Wed, May 05, 2004 at 04:29:00PM +0100, Scott James Remnant wrote:
>
> Why are you resigning in "two weeks time" ? Traditionally when one
Maybe because a two-weeks notice is considered a good term for
resignation for a job? Herbert considers seriously his involvement
into the project and this approach is coherent with
his consideration. I'd do the same.
--
Francesco P. Lovergine
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| Denis Barbier 2004-05-05, 3:34 pm |
| Xref: number1.nntp.ash.giganews.com linux.debian.devel:147757
On Wed, May 05, 2004 at 10:29:52PM +0800, Wang WenRui wrote:
> Around 08 o'clock on 05 May, Steve Langasek wrote:
> Just *some* people do. Some of these people started a large thread in
> debian-devel, debian-boot and debian-users here several weeks ago, IIRC.
> The 2nd screen of d-i:
>
> /---------------------[Choose *country*]-----------------\
> | Choose your country: |
> | |
> | China |
> | Hong Kong |
> | Taiwan |
> | |
> | |
> \______________________________________
_________________/
This is incredibly unfair, you are well aware
http://lists.debian.org/debian-chin...3/msg00102.html
that this has been partly fixed in beta4, question now looks like
/-----------------------[Choose country]---------------------\
| Based on your language, you are probably in one of these |
| countries, territories or areas of particular geopolitical |
| interest. If you are elsewhere, choose "other". |
| |
| Choose your country, territory or area: |
| China |
| Hong Kong |
| Taiwan |
| other |
\_______________________________________
_____________________/
As I disagree with Christian, I created a test branch for countrychooser
svn+ssh://svn.debian.org/svn/d-i/people/barbier/countrychooser
svn://svn.debian.org/d-i/people/barbier/countrychooser
to get rid of remaining "choose country" short forms and requested for
comments
http://lists.debian.org/debian-boot...5/msg00205.html
to see if this version was less controversial. I am still waiting for
comments.
Denis
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| Zenaan Harkness 2004-05-05, 8:34 pm |
| On Thu, 2004-05-06 at 01:29, Scott James Remnant wrote:
> On Wed, 2004-05-05 at 08:07 +1000, Herbert Xu wrote:
>
> *cough*
....
> Amused of Birmingham
At least some people in Debian take their position seriously, and don't
go out of their way to antagonize others.
Arrogance can be a useful tool ... or make a useless tool.
Zenaan
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| Wang WenRui 2004-05-05, 9:34 pm |
| Around 20 o'clock on 05 May, Denis Barbier wrote:
> On Wed, May 05, 2004 at 10:29:52PM +0800, Wang WenRui wrote:
>
> This is incredibly unfair, you are well aware
> http://lists.debian.org/debian-chin...3/msg00102.html
> that this has been partly fixed in beta4, question now looks like
Sorry for the inaccurate description about the prompt text, but the main
menu entry is still wrong, and the last message I got is that it won't be
fixed because the correct text is long as a main menu entry.
>
> /-----------------------[Choose country]---------------------\
> | Based on your language, you are probably in one of these |
> | countries, territories or areas of particular geopolitical |
> | interest. If you are elsewhere, choose "other". |
> | |
> | Choose your country, territory or area: |
> | China |
> | Hong Kong |
> | Taiwan |
> | other |
> \_______________________________________
_____________________/
>
> As I disagree with Christian, I created a test branch for countrychooser
> svn+ssh://svn.debian.org/svn/d-i/people/barbier/countrychooser
> svn://svn.debian.org/d-i/people/barbier/countrychooser
> to get rid of remaining "choose country" short forms and requested for
> comments
> http://lists.debian.org/debian-boot...5/msg00205.html
> to see if this version was less controversial. I am still waiting for
> comments.
This must be fixed.
Thank you and Christian for your work.
>
> Denis
>
>
| |
| Henning Makholm 2004-05-05, 10:33 pm |
| Scripsit Petter Reinholdtsen <pere@hungry.com>
> As the listing is in fact a map from the second part of locales to
> names, it should probably ask the user to select "country or region".
How about just calling it "(language) variant"? That would seem to
sidestepping sidestepping the - apparently controversial - issue of
choosing a generic noun to cover geographical areas.
For example "country or region" does not begin to describe the issues
involved in choosing between the "nynorsk" and "bokmål" ortographies
for the Norwegian language. Perhaps we're handling that by considering
them separate languages (I'm too lazy to check), but as far as I
understand the situation should fairly closely parallel the different
ways of writing down Chinese [1]. It would be sensible to handle them
though a common mechanism.
[1] Except that users of nynorsk resp. bokmål are not conveniently
grouped geographically.
--
Henning Makholm "Detta, sade de, vore rena sanningen;
ty de kunde tala sanning lika väl som någon
annan, när de bara visste vad det tjänade til."
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| John Hasler 2004-05-05, 10:33 pm |
| Why not just say 'Area'?
Like this:
/-----------------------[Choose area]------------------------\
| Based on your language, you are probably in one of these |
| areas. If you are elsewhere, choose "other". |
| |
| Choose your area: |
| China |
| Hong Kong |
| Taiwan |
| other |
\_______________________________________
_____________________/
--
John Hasler
john@dhh.gt.org
Dancing Horse Hill
Elmwood, Wisconsin
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| Steve Langasek 2004-05-05, 10:33 pm |
| On Thu, May 06, 2004 at 02:33:48AM +0100, Henning Makholm wrote:
> Scripsit Petter Reinholdtsen <pere@hungry.com>
[vbcol=seagreen]
> How about just calling it "(language) variant"? That would seem to
> sidestepping sidestepping the - apparently controversial - issue of
> choosing a generic noun to cover geographical areas.
> For example "country or region" does not begin to describe the issues
> involved in choosing between the "nynorsk" and "bokmål" ortographies
> for the Norwegian language. Perhaps we're handling that by considering
> them separate languages (I'm too lazy to check),
Consider yourself checked. They are handled as separate languages, so
this distinction is made via languagechooser and not via the (currently
disputed) countrychooser.
--
Steve Langasek
postmodern programmer
| |
| Adam Majer 2004-05-05, 11:33 pm |
| Alastair McKinstry wrote:
>As was pointed out elsewhere on the list, there are a bunch of
>programs that include flags, and lists of countries, within
>Debian. This could be refactored into a single collection
>(in a single directory).
>
>
I know that KDE also included (at least in the past, don't know now),
the Quebec's flag when you chose French Canadian language (or layout or
something). This was pretty close to when Quebec had their referendum to
separate from Canada. I didn't see too many Canadians resigning because
KDE had Quebec's flag!
IMHO, I think it is childish to resign because of something really
stupid like this. If the country name is wrong according to
*international* regulation/law, then file an RC bug against the software.
I'm quite saddened at the state of the world that this decision
reflects. Hypothetically speaking, if KDE has a theme that reflects
native culture of Tibet, and uses Tibet's flag to describe it, does this
mean that their website will be censored by China? From Herbert's
extreme reaction, I must conclude yes.
- Adam
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| Nathanael Nerode 2004-05-06, 1:34 am |
| Hugo Wau wrote:
> Am Mit, 2004-05-05 um 11.37 schrieb Josip Rodin:
>
> Is it necessary at all, to use names of political systems like names of
> states? Would it not be better, to use unpolitical names of geological
> formations eg. "Island Taiwan"?
Or would that be "Island of Formosa"? ;-)
> People keep migrating and political systems come and go. Names of states
> and citys are changing throughout the world. Names of islands, mountains
> and rivers will stay for much longer time periods.
Not necessarily. :-( Is that the Congo river or the Zaire river?
--
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| Adam Majer 2004-05-06, 4:34 am |
| Nathanael Nerode wrote:
>Hugo Wau wrote:
>
>
>Not necessarily. :-( Is that the Congo river or the Zaire river?
>
>
And let's not even start talking about the former Leningrad or Stalingrad.
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| Gaël Le Mignot 2004-05-06, 5:33 am |
| Hello Adam!
Thu, 06 May 2004 02:46:09 +0000, you wrote:
> Alastair McKinstry wrote:
> I know that KDE also included (at least in the past, don't know now),
> the Quebec's flag when you chose French Canadian language (or layout
> or something). This was pretty close to when Quebec had their
> referendum to separate from Canada. I didn't see too many Canadians
> resigning because KDE had Quebec's flag!
The same way, there is a "Bretagne" flag and maybe a Corsica flag, and
no french people mind about it... Both are regions of France with some
people wanting independance. But acknowledging that they have a flag,
a language and a culture do not mean we support their independance.
Most citizen of those regions want to stay part of France, but at the
same time, they want to protect their own culture. This is totally
natural.
--
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| Marcelo E. Magallon 2004-05-06, 1:35 pm |
| On Wed, May 05, 2004 at 04:54:08PM +0100, Martin Michlmayr wrote:
> Can you please all stop being so damn hostile to each other?
Martin, you just raised the kindergarten nature of -devel one notch
further :-)
--
Marcelo
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| Chuan-kai Lin 2004-05-08, 10:38 am |
| -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
In gmane.linux.debian.devel.boot Herbert Xu wrote:
> Free software extremists I can live with. But this is too much.
> I will resign from this project in two weeks time.
Herbert,
I have to say that I am surprised by the turn of events. I have been
trying to come up with a convincing argument to make you stay, but
somehow all reasons seemed to fall short one way or the other. I guess
it all comes down to how one prioritizes one's different ideologies.
For those who place the deterrence and destruction of their enemies
above anything else, participating in the free software movement may
indeed contradict with that particular vision. The "enemies" tend to
vary greatly from person to person: noisy neighbors, one's ex, certain
corporations/governments/organizations that are perceived to be evil,
people who believe in some other religion, or people who believe in no
religion... you know the drill. Participants in the free software
movement may not only be working with the people they consider "evil"
(as you have recently discovered), but what really makes it intolerable
is that they make work *for* those "evil" people!
No, I am pretty sure Christian Perrier is not a supporter of Taiwan
independence; otherwise he would not have filed the d-i ISO-3166
conformance bug in the first place. But the possibility that someone in
the project does support Taiwan independence is real, and if you extend
the scope to our users around the globe, overwhelming. (For those who
cannot care less about Taiwan independence, fill in the blanks with
appropriate terms yourself.) They could be using *your* packages to
further their goals at this very moment! Unless you can live with that
thought, working on free software really does not make much sense.
Debian is about free software, and we try to keep it that way, but
sometimes other controversial issues do find their way into our work,
and we have to find reasonable solutions for them so that we can move
on. I had deep feelings on how Taiwan is referred to in d-i and
elsewhere, and I had spoken vocally on this topic, trying to make our
users' concerns understood (and bothered the hell out of a lot of people
in the process too). But regardless of how hard I try, the possibility
remains that I might be told that even though our users' concerns are
perfectly understood, it is determined by the general consensus within
the project that we are not going to adopt the solution that fulfills my
wishes. Duh, tough luck. I might be a little upset, but then we move
on. After all, Debian is about free software, and that is what really
matters here.
I agree that the idea of working with people you disagree with, or that
"evil" people using the software you maintain can be hard to swallow.
For all I know, People's Liberation Army could also benefit from my work
here, but nobody in Taiwan bugs me for that, because that is how these
things work. Free software is free for all, and I consider that a
higher cause to serve. If you believe in the free software movement as
a lasting way of empowering the people and the society through promoting
the free availability of ideas and technology, you should not give up
your commitment over political issues. Your resignation makes a clear
statement, sure, but it is hardly constructive even as far as politics
is concerned. As much as the political disagreement over the Taiwan
Strait is, I am sure things will be sorted out within the next hundred
years or two. Really. And regardless of our personal opinions, this is
not a burden we should bear *as* Debian developers.
Even though you and I disagree on this issue, I still hate to see you go
with all the nice work you have done for Debian. So how about you
retract the resignation before it becomes effective, and keep working on
the common ideal that all of us *do* share -- like, this thing I heard
the other day called free software?
Regards,
- --
Chuan-kai Lin
http://www.cse.ogi.edu/~linchuan/
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| Denis Barbier 2004-05-10, 5:42 pm |
| On Wed, May 05, 2004 at 08:07:55AM +1000, Herbert Xu wrote:
> So be it.
>
> Free software extremists I can live with. But this is too much.
> I will resign from this project in two weeks time.
>
> In the mean, please send me offers to maintain my packages in *private*.
> Any packages which are not claimed for in two weeks time will be orphaned
> and th usual rules shall apply.
I proposed some changes to countrychooser before this discussion
was moved to debian-devel and made an unofficial branch to seek
for comments; a PO file is temporarily available at
http://people.debian.org/~barbier/tmp/zh_CN.po
Please tell us whether these strings are acceptable from your
point of view, and if not which changes you would like to see.
If you insist on leaving, I can not stop you.
Denis
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| Herbert Xu 2004-05-10, 5:42 pm |
| On Sun, May 09, 2004 at 08:19:54AM +0200, Denis Barbier wrote:
>
> I proposed some changes to countrychooser before this discussion
> was moved to debian-devel and made an unofficial branch to seek
> for comments; a PO file is temporarily available at
> http://people.debian.org/~barbier/tmp/zh_CN.po
> Please tell us whether these strings are acceptable from your
> point of view, and if not which changes you would like to see.
> If you insist on leaving, I can not stop you.
Thank you for considering the issue.
Whether I find it acceptable is no longer relevant as it is already
too late for me to back out of this process.
Cheers,
--
Debian GNU/Linux 3.0 is out! ( http://www.debian.org/ )
Email: Herbert Xu ~{PmV>HI~} <herbert@gondor.apana.org.au>
Home Page: http://gondor.apana.org.au/~herbert/
PGP Key: http://gondor.apana.org.au/~herbert/pubkey.txt
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| Changwoo Ryu 2004-05-10, 5:42 pm |
| 2004-05-06 03:06, Florian Weimer wrote:
> * Alastair McKinstry:
>
>
> We could remove those flags alltogether.
>
I agree.
The North Korean flag will also make some people here (South Korea) very
uneasy.
The North/South are both members of UN. But officially North Korea is
never considered as an independent country, by the constitution. And
some believe that seriously. ;) Using North Korean flag here can even
be illegal by an evil law, if it is interpreted as "praising" North
Korea.
--
Changwoo Ryu <cwryu@debian.org>
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| Zenaan Harkness 2004-05-10, 5:42 pm |
| On Sun, 2004-05-09 at 17:36, Herbert Xu wrote:
> On Sun, May 09, 2004 at 08:19:54AM +0200, Denis Barbier wrote:
>
> Thank you for considering the issue.
>
> Whether I find it acceptable is no longer relevant as it is already
> too late for me to back out of this process.
We see first a man of dedication and diligence, then of principles,
and now of resolution.
Thanks for all you've contributed, and all the best as you go forward,
Zenaan
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| Herbert Xu 2004-05-18, 6:38 pm |
| On Wed, May 05, 2004 at 08:07:55AM +1000, Herbert Xu wrote:
>
> In the mean, please send me offers to maintain my packages in *private*.
> Any packages which are not claimed for in two weeks time will be orphaned
> and th usual rules shall apply.
OK, time's up.
Here are the source packages under my name and the decisions I've made
on them:
apt-move U Dan Weber <dan@mirrorlynx.com>
bootp Anibal Monsalve Salazar <anibal@its.monash.edu.au>
bootpc Anibal Monsalve Salazar <anibal@its.monash.edu.au>
bsd-finger Anibal Monsalve Salazar <anibal@its.monash.edu.au>
cramfs *
dash U Gerrit Pape <pape@smarden.org>
fping Anibal Monsalve Salazar <anibal@its.monash.edu.au>
initrd-tools *
kernel-image-*-alpha *
kernel-image-*-i386 *
kernel-kbuild-* *
kernel-source-* *
lesstif1-1 Orphan
libv1.90 Remove
linux-ftpd Orphan
modules-scyld-source-0.1 *
netkit-bootparamd Orphan
netkit-ftp Orphan
netkit-ntalk Orphan
netkit-rsh Orphan
netkit-rusers Orphan
netkit-rwall Orphan
netkit-rwho Orphan
netkit-telnet Orphan
netkit-tftp Orphan
nfs-user-server Orphan
pidentd Graham Wilson <bob@decoy.wox.org>
portmap Anibal Monsalve Salazar <anibal@its.monash.edu.au>
pump Anibal Monsalve Salazar <anibal@its.monash.edu.au>
rdate Anibal Monsalve Salazar <anibal@its.monash.edu.au>
rdist Anibal Monsalve Salazar <anibal@its.monash.edu.au>
rstatd Anibal Monsalve Salazar <anibal@its.monash.edu.au>
traceroute Graham Wilson <bob@decoy.wox.org>
vide Remove
vrfy Orphan
dosemu Orphan
dosemu-freedos Orphan
gettyps Orphan
newsgate Orphan
nntpcache Orphan
The ones marked with a U will still be maintained by me as upstream.
The kernel packages are marked with an *. I have not made a decision
on them. I will pass that responsibility onto Martin Michlmayr
<tbm@cyrius.com> who will evaluate the various offers.
I've also uploaded my CVS tree for the kernel packages to
people.debian.org:~herbert/cvs.
The ones marked with orphan should be orphaned. Could QA please
file the appropriate bugs against wnpp?
The two packages marked for removal should be removed from Debian
since they've been offered since years ago and nobody has shown any
interest.
With this letter, I am officially resigning from Debian. Could the
admins please remove my account and PGP key?
I will continue to respond to bug reports for the interim.
Cheers,
--
Visit Openswan at http://www.openswan.org/
Email: Herbert Xu ~{PmV>HI~} <herbert@gondor.apana.org.au>
Home Page: http://gondor.apana.org.au/~herbert/
PGP Key: http://gondor.apana.org.au/~herbert/pubkey.txt
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| Martin Michlmayr 2004-05-18, 7:36 pm |
| * Herbert Xu <herbert@gondor.apana.org.au> [2004-05-19 08:08]:
> The kernel packages are marked with an *. I have not made a
> decision on them. I will pass that responsibility onto Martin
> Michlmayr <tbm@cyrius.com> who will evaluate the various offers.
Yes, I'm currently trying to put together a good kernel team. More on
this later.
> I've also uploaded my CVS tree for the kernel packages to
> people.debian.org:~herbert/cvs.
Thanks.
> The ones marked with orphan should be orphaned. Could QA please
> file the appropriate bugs against wnpp?
Done.
> The two packages marked for removal should be removed from Debian
> since they've been offered since years ago and nobody has shown any
> interest.
I've filed bugs.
> With this letter, I am officially resigning from Debian.
As I expressed before, I'm very sad to see you go. Thanks for
everything you've done for Debian! It has been incredible to work
together with you. Take care.
:-(
--
Martin Michlmayr
tbm@cyrius.com
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| Stephen Gran 2004-05-18, 11:34 pm |
| This one time, at band camp, Herbert Xu said:
> With this letter, I am officially resigning from Debian. Could the
> admins please remove my account and PGP key?
>
> I will continue to respond to bug reports for the interim.
I am sorry to see you go Herbert, and especially to see you prodded out
of the project by more flamewar silliness. Events like this sadden me
to no end.
Sigh.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------
| ,''`. Stephen Gran |
| : :' : sgran@debian.org |
| `. `' Debian user, admin, and developer |
| `- http://www.debian.org |
-----------------------------------------------------------------
| |
| Miles Bader 2004-05-18, 11:34 pm |
| Stephen Gran <sgran@debian.org> writes:
> I am sorry to see you go Herbert, and especially to see you prodded out
> of the project by more flamewar silliness. Events like this sadden me
> to no end.
>From what I can see, it was Herbert's over-sensitivity with regard to
this particular issue that did it, not `flamewar silliness' (that
`flamewar' was not unusual for this list).
It's his cross to bear, not Debian's.
-Miles
--
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| Andrew Suffield 2004-05-18, 11:34 pm |
| On Wed, May 19, 2004 at 11:51:14AM +0900, Miles Bader wrote:
> Stephen Gran <sgran@debian.org> writes:
>
> this particular issue that did it, not `flamewar silliness' (that
> `flamewar' was not unusual for this list).
And anybody who thinks that was a flamewar... good grief, grow a
skin. It was downright civil.
It seems to me that a lot of people these days have no conception of
what a "flamewar" is, and just apply the label randomly to any
discussion in which two or more people do not agree and which they did
not like the outcome of.
--
.''`. ** Debian GNU/Linux ** | Andrew Suffield
: :' : http://www.debian.org/ |
`. `' |
`- -><- |
| |
|
| Martin Michlmayr wrote:
> As I expressed before, I'm very sad to see you go. Thanks for
> everything you've done for Debian! It has been incredible to work
> together with you. Take care.
Ditto. All my kernel are belong to Herbert :-)
I really hope he can feel like getting back into the project sometime...
Thanks for all the effort. Thanks for all the dedicated hours.
--
.''`. "Pero Ranty, ¿tú no tienes ningún pantalón largo?" --
: :' : ErConde le dijo a Ranty, que nunca ha tenido frío
`. `' Proudly running Debian GNU/Linux (Sid 2.6.5 Ext3)
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| Tollef Fog Heen 2004-05-19, 5:39 pm |
| Herbert Xu wrote:
> With this letter, I am officially resigning from Debian. Could the
> admins please remove my account and PGP key?
>
> I will continue to respond to bug reports for the interim.
Sorry to see you go, and hope you change your mind and come back some
time later. Thanks for your contribution to Debian.
- tfheen
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| Anibal Monsalve Salazar 2004-05-19, 11:37 pm |
| | |
| Josip Rodin 2004-05-22, 10:26 pm |
| On Wed, May 19, 2004 at 08:08:24AM +1000, Herbert Xu wrote:
> OK, time's up.
Thanks for this stunning display of the "...or I quit!" mentality.
Do come back at least as often as Adrian Bunk and keep reminding us of it. :P
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| Anthony Towns 2004-05-22, 11:13 pm |
| On Fri, May 21, 2004 at 09:18:42PM +0200, Josip Rodin wrote:
> On Wed, May 19, 2004 at 08:08:24AM +1000, Herbert Xu wrote:
> Thanks for this stunning display of the "...or I quit!" mentality.
Since when is giving two week's notice worthy of jeering?
Cheers,
aj
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| Josip Rodin 2004-05-22, 11:13 pm |
| On Sat, May 22, 2004 at 06:35:23PM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote:
>
> Since when is giving two week's notice worthy of jeering?
I wasn't really intending to comment on the grace period per se, rather
the act itself.
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| Josip Rodin 2004-05-26, 4:31 pm |
| On Tue, May 25, 2004 at 08:47:18PM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote:
> If Herbert's decision to quit the project is purely his prerogative,
> then you don't get to complain about it. You get to accept it. You
> get to argue why you think there are other decisions he could've made
> that would be better, and better for him not the project at that --
> if not so that he'd change his mind, so that others might not do the
> same thing. But you don't get to say "What a stunning example of "..or
> I quit!"" and imagine that's an insightful argument, or that you've
> claimed some moral highground that should protect from harassment.
I did neither, but that didn't stop you from flaming.
> Personally, I think your responses in this thread provide a pretty good
> example of why people don't need more than 24 hours to decide it's not
> worth trying to have a rational conversation to change people's minds
> on Debian lists.
Ooh, I love where this is going, now I get to feel guilty for Xu's
departure! :D Ludicrous...
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| Anthony Towns 2004-05-26, 4:31 pm |
| On Tue, May 25, 2004 at 02:10:23PM +0200, Josip Rodin wrote:
> On Tue, May 25, 2004 at 08:47:18PM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote:
> I did neither, but that didn't stop you from flaming.
Dude, if you want to question other people's actions, you need to expect
your own to be questioned likewise.
Quitting is Herbert's prerogative, and his ability to resign for whatever
reason he thinks is appropriate is an essential part of the character of
the project. That you think it's appropriate to mock Herbert for that,
but inappropriate to question what you're trying to achieve in making
fun of him of his leaving is disappointing, that you think any of this
has been "flaming" is just silly.
> Ooh, I love where this is going, now I get to feel guilty for Xu's
> departure! :D Ludicrous...
Well, if you think it's ludicrous, clearly it must be so.
But hey, at least typing "Xu's departure!" still brings out that big
grin you're known for.
Cheers,
aj
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Anthony Towns <aj@humbug.org.au> <http://azure.humbug.org.au/~aj/>
Don't assume I speak for anyone but myself. GPG signed mail preferred.
``Like the ski resort of girls looking for husbands and husbands looking
for girls, the situation is not as symmetrical as it might seem.''
| |
| Josip Rodin 2004-05-26, 4:32 pm |
| On Wed, May 26, 2004 at 07:12:37AM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote:
>
> Dude, if you want to question other people's actions, you need to expect
> your own to be questioned likewise.
>
> Quitting is Herbert's prerogative, and his ability to resign for whatever
> reason he thinks is appropriate is an essential part of the character of
> the project. That you think it's appropriate to mock Herbert for that,
> but inappropriate to question what you're trying to achieve in making
> fun of him of his leaving is disappointing, that you think any of this
> has been "flaming" is just silly.
Looking back at the thread, your primary question was indeed "why?", but
then Ben's post threw us off track with that round of semantic nitpicking
the end result of which I can't honestly qualify as anything other than a
flamewar.
Anyway, the best answer I can give to that question is that I give special
attention to the virtue of dilligence (mostly because I lack it  and that
I don't have good experiences with people who are inclined to quit (mostly
myself and people who are entrenched nationalists (again something I
could well be, except that I try not to). Xu's work seemed to be a constant
despite any other controversy surrounding it, but then he completely turned
the tables (in my book at least) and ceased it, did it rather unaffected by
actual external forces, and for reasons that reek of nationalism. So I felt
disappointed, enough to feel a need to voice my disappointment. The reaction
doesn't really accomplish anything useful, but I just had to make it.
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| Martin Michlmayr 2004-08-12, 5:58 pm |
| * Herbert Xu <herbert@gondor.apana.org.au> [2004-05-19 08:08]:
> Here are the source packages under my name and the decisions I've made
> on them:
>
> apt-move U Dan Weber <dan@mirrorlynx.com>
Are you still going to adopt this package?
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