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Advice with uncooperative maintainers
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| Robert Millan 2004-08-11, 2:51 am |
|
Hi,
I'm seeking advice on dealing with uncooperative maintainers. I had some
trouble trying to cooperate with Ryan Murray to fix bugs in his packages.
On 1 Aug 2004, I sent a wishlist bug report to the 'esound' package, with
an attached patch that fixed the problem. I noticed that Ryan is not
actively maintaining this package, so I informed him that I intended to NMU
it in case no activity from his part happened in 7 days.
On 9 Aug 2004 (8 days later), with no response from him, I NMUed esound with
my patch. He inmediately came back from MIA-ness and sent me a private mail
basicaly telling me that my NMU wasn't appreciated, and that it was a waste
of time in cycles for the buildds.
Roughly 12 hours later, he reverted the changes. He didn't tell me he was
going to revert them whatsoever. He just uploaded and I casualy noticed
about it while looking at the incoming queue:
> esound (0.2.29-2) unstable; urgency=low
> * Instead of using select() for OSS, use SNDCTL_DSP_GETOSPACE.
> * Revert changes in unsanctioned NMU.
> -- Ryan Murray <rmurray@debian.org> Mon, 9 Aug 2004 20:28:59 -0700
Also, he removed all trace of my upload in the debian/changelog file.
What am I supposed to do on this? Bring the issue to the technical committe?
Speak with the DPL? (As the tech ctte documentation suggests). I'll appreciate
any constructive feedback on this.
_PLEASE_ note that in this mail I'm only describing _FACTS_, not opinions.
So before you start your attempt at justifying Ryan's behaviour, think twice
and send it to /dev/null, where it belongs.
--
Robert Millan
(Debra and Ian) (Gnu's Not (UNiplexed Information and Computing System))/\
(kernel of *(Berkeley Software Distribution))
| |
| Henrique de Moraes Holschuh 2004-08-11, 2:51 am |
| On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Robert Millan wrote:
> On 1 Aug 2004, I sent a wishlist bug report to the 'esound' package, with
> an attached patch that fixed the problem. I noticed that Ryan is not
Bug# for the wishlist? NMU Bug#? More information would be nice.
>
> Also, he removed all trace of my upload in the debian/changelog file.
If the NMU was installed, he ought to keep the changelog entry. Otherwise
(if it never made it out of incoming), the point is really academic.
> What am I supposed to do on this? Bring the issue to the technical committe?
Due to a wishlist bug? If it is that serious, the bug should not be
wishlist in the first place.
--
"One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring
them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond
where the shadows lie." -- The Silicon Valley Tarot
Henrique Holschuh
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| Daniel Burrows 2004-08-11, 2:51 am |
| On Tue, Aug 10, 2004 at 11:26:21PM -0300, Henrique de Moraes Holschuh <hmh@debian.org> was heard to say:
> On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Robert Millan wrote:
>
> Bug# for the wishlist? NMU Bug#? More information would be nice.
I imagine this is probably #262756, "Fails to build from source on *BSD".
Daniel
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| David Weinehall 2004-08-11, 7:51 am |
| On Tue, Aug 10, 2004 at 10:38:31PM -0400, Daniel Burrows wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 10, 2004 at 11:26:21PM -0300, Henrique de Moraes Holschuh <hmh@debian.org> was heard to say:
>
> I imagine this is probably #262756, "Fails to build from source on
> *BSD".
Well, personally I wouldn't mind a more actively maintained esound; the
current version in Debian is pretty old, and the later upstream versions
fixes quite a lot of bugs. To be able to use esd on my laptops, I have
created my own packages of v0.2.34 instead, but I would really prefer
having a working package in the Debian archives...
Regards: David Weinehall
--
/) David Weinehall <tao@acc.umu.se> /) Northern lights wander (\
// Maintainer of the v2.0 kernel // Dance across the winter sky //
\) http://www.acc.umu.se/~tao/ (/ Full colour fire (/
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| Jose Carlos Garcia Sogo 2004-08-11, 7:51 am |
| On Tue, Aug 10, 2004 at 11:26:21PM -0300, Henrique de Moraes Holschuh wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Robert Millan wrote:
>
> Bug# for the wishlist? NMU Bug#? More information would be nice.
>
>
> If the NMU was installed, he ought to keep the changelog entry. Otherwise
> (if it never made it out of incoming), the point is really academic.
Not really out of incoming, but out of UploadQueue, as once katie has
run and got the package, you need to push your verssion number to get
another package allowed in (as he did). So the question now when
somebody reads the changelog is: where is version 0.2.29-1?
--
Jose Carlos Garcia Sogo
jsogo@debian.org
| |
| Jérôme Warnier 2004-08-11, 7:51 am |
| Le mer 11/08/2004 =E0 11:56, David Weinehall a =E9crit :
> On Tue, Aug 10, 2004 at 10:38:31PM -0400, Daniel Burrows wrote:
hmh@debian.org> was heard to say:[vbcol=seagreen]
>=20
> Well, personally I wouldn't mind a more actively maintained esound; the
> current version in Debian is pretty old, and the later upstream versions
> fixes quite a lot of bugs. To be able to use esd on my laptops, I have
> created my own packages of v0.2.34 instead, but I would really prefer
> having a working package in the Debian archives...
I've done exactly the same thing[1] because ESD 0.2.29 with ALSA really
doesn't make it.
Most of the patches (if not all) applied in the current Debian packages
no longer make sense, if they did someday.
[1] available for Sarge at http://apt.bxlug.be/sarge/main/ (and sources
available at http://apt.bxlug.be/sarge/sources/).
--=20
J=E9r=F4me Warnier
Consultant
BeezNest
http://beeznest.net
| |
| Ondøej Surý 2004-08-11, 7:51 am |
| On Wed, 2004-08-11 at 14:00 +0200, Jérôme Warnier wrote:
> I've done exactly the same thing[1] because ESD 0.2.29 with ALSA really
> doesn't make it.
> Most of the patches (if not all) applied in the current Debian packages
> no longer make sense, if they did someday.
>
> [1] available for Sarge at http://apt.bxlug.be/sarge/main/ (and sources
> available at http://apt.bxlug.be/sarge/sources/).
Have you created new patch and put it in BTS? Also when removing debian
patches, have you reviewed what they are for and if they are neccessary
and not and after that have you submited this information to BTS?
I am just saying that making own packages and uploading to web
somewhere, doesn't help much (neither you nor debian)...
doesn't make sen
O.
--
Ondřej Surý <ondrej@sury.org>
| |
| Jérôme Warnier 2004-08-11, 7:51 am |
| Le mer 11/08/2004 =C3=A0 14:11, Ond=C5=99ej Sur=C3=BD a =C3=A9crit :
> On Wed, 2004-08-11 at 14:00 +0200, J=C3=A9r=C3=B4me Warnier wrote:
he[vbcol=seagreen]
ons[vbcol=seagreen]
ve[vbcol=seagreen]
>=20
> Have you created new patch and put it in BTS? Also when removing debian
> patches, have you reviewed what they are for and if they are neccessary
> and not and after that have you submited this information to BTS?
No, I haven't because the patch would not apply to version in Debian
(0.2.29). But the diff.gz is available at afore-mentioned url.
I removed all patches together because:
- most don't apply anymore to 0.2.34 (because it has been fixed
upstream)
- without them (and still, with version 0.2.34 of course), I'm not
having any problem they were once supposed to work around
Of course I should have analyzed each one before removing, but isn't it
the work of the maintainer?
> I am just saying that making own packages and uploading to web
> somewhere, doesn't help much (neither you nor debian)...
Of course it helps! I'm having a lot trouble less now that I use my
packages. They are now used on at least 5 PC used daily without any
problem, and for more than one month now.
I use them with ALSA (and used to use one with OSS till this morning).
Of course, I did not test them on other architecture than i386.
> doesn't make sen
>=20
> O.
--=20
J=C3=A9r=C3=B4me Warnier
Consultant
BeezNest
http://beeznest.net
| |
| Andreas Metzler 2004-08-11, 7:51 am |
| On Wed, Aug 11, 2004 at 01:17:01PM +0200, Jose Carlos Garcia Sogo wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 10, 2004 at 11:26:21PM -0300, Henrique de Moraes Holschuh wrote:
[vbcol=seagreen]
[vbcol=seagreen]
FWIW I think that is ok if the other changes from the NMU were
dropped, too. - The changes made are not in the package, therefore
should not be claimed to have been made in debian/changelog.
We still differ quite strongly between _real_ uploads and NMUs. NMUs
need to use a special version number and they do not close bugs. -
Bugs are only closed by the maintainer if he accepts the changes made
in the NMU and incorporates. - This supports the idea that a NMU can
also be rejected by the maintainer.
Be aware that I have not passed any judgement whether
esound is maintained properly or not, just that I think a package
maintainer has the right to reject changes made in a NMU.
[vbcol=seagreen]
[vbcol=seagreen]
> Not really out of incoming, but out of UploadQueue, as once katie has
> run and got the package, you need to push your verssion number to get
> another package allowed in (as he did). So the question now when
> somebody reads the changelog is: where is version 0.2.29-1?
-1 is in the changelog of course, because it was the last maintainer
upload before -2, the NMUs were -1.1 to -1.3. as can be seen on
http://packages.qa.debian.org/esound
cuandreas
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| Robert Millan 2004-08-11, 7:51 am |
| On Tue, Aug 10, 2004 at 11:26:21PM -0300, Henrique de Moraes Holschuh wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Robert Millan wrote:
>
> Bug# for the wishlist? NMU Bug#? More information would be nice.
I avoided referring to the bug number, or explaining what the bug is about,
because I don't want the thread to decay into a discussion on wether my
requested changes are ok or not.
The question is, that if they're not, I'd expect the maintainer to reply
stating so, instead of pretending to be MIA. And even if he didn't reply,
he hasn't justified why reverting the changes yet.
I don't intend to push bugs that far. If Ryan has said something like
"please put this on hold for post-sarge", all this could have been avoided.
If that is what he intends (which is not clear at all to me), I don't mind
waiting untill sarge release (like I did for other bugs, see #227486). If
it isn't, I'll have to find a better solution.
>
> Due to a wishlist bug? If it is that serious, the bug should not be
> wishlist in the first place.
The official severity for bugs that only affect unofficial kernels is wishlist.
However, the bug is critical for me since esound fails to build on the system
I normaly use for development.
--
Robert Millan
(Debra and Ian) (Gnu's Not (UNiplexed Information and Computing System))/\
(kernel of *(Berkeley Software Distribution))
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| Daniel Burrows 2004-08-11, 5:57 pm |
| On Wed, Aug 11, 2004 at 02:58:56PM +0200, Robert Millan <rmh@debian.org> was heard to say:
> I avoided referring to the bug number, or explaining what the bug is about,
> because I don't want the thread to decay into a discussion on wether my
> requested changes are ok or not.
>
> The question is, that if they're not, I'd expect the maintainer to reply
> stating so, instead of pretending to be MIA. And even if he didn't reply,
> he hasn't justified why reverting the changes yet.
I don't think you can expect prompt responses to every wishlist bug --
especially if the changes are basically OK but the maintainer doesn't
want to upload them right now (because, for instance, they have no
bearing on sarge and the autobuilders have backed-up queues a mile long
of packages waiting to enter sarge).
Obviously these bugs are important to you, but not everyone else will
place them at the same priority level.
Daniel
--
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| when you go out to the junk food machine and start wondering how to |
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| Kenneth Pronovici 2004-08-11, 5:57 pm |
| On Wed, Aug 11, 2004 at 10:20:45AM -0400, Daniel Burrows wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 11, 2004 at 02:58:56PM +0200, Robert Millan <rmh@debian.org> was heard to say:
>
> I don't think you can expect prompt responses to every wishlist bug --
> especially if the changes are basically OK but the maintainer doesn't
> want to upload them right now (because, for instance, they have no
> bearing on sarge and the autobuilders have backed-up queues a mile long
> of packages waiting to enter sarge).
I disagree. I feel that bug submitters should be able to expect a
prompt response to every bug, even if it's just "I got this, and I'll
deal with it when I have time" or "This is a low priority right now" or
"Please wait until post-sarge".
As we've discussed numerous times on this list lately, communication
seems to be the only way to avoid misunderstandings, and the ten seconds
it takes to reply to a bug is not too much to ask.
And just in case you think I'm talking out of my XXX, this is exactly
what I do with my pile of packages, as well as tracking upstream bugs
for my end-users (failure to do so being another one of my pet peeves
that I won't get into here).
> Obviously these bugs are important to you, but not everyone else will
> place them at the same priority level.
Which isn't really the point - because there was no way in this case to
tell the difference between the bug being low-priority and the
maintainer being MIA. (Note that I am not saying the maintainer *was*
MIA, I'm saying that I would have no way to know from looking at the bug
report.)
KEN
--
Kenneth J. Pronovici <pronovic@debian.org>
| |
| Anthony Towns 2004-08-11, 5:57 pm |
| On Wed, Aug 11, 2004 at 02:50:20AM +0200, Robert Millan wrote:
> I'm seeking advice on dealing with uncooperative maintainers.
It takes two to cooperate.
What appears to be missing in this instance is any possibility
of help from you in satisfying Ryan's goals; meanwhile calling Ryan
"uncooperative" on -devel and doing BSD specific NMUs when Debian's trying
to freeze are both likely to actively work against Ryan's interests. Is it
really unclear why you don't have an idyllically cooperative relationship
with him?
> What am I supposed to do on this? Bring the issue to the technical committe?
> Speak with the DPL? (As the tech ctte documentation suggests). I'll appreciate
> any constructive feedback on this.
It sounds more like you're looking for an alternative way of getting
what you want that doesn't require you to cooperate with Ryan. I don't
actually think that's an entirely unreasonable thing to want, but it
has different answers to the question you asked.
Cheers,
aj
--
Anthony Towns <aj@humbug.org.au> <http://azure.humbug.org.au/~aj/>
Don't assume I speak for anyone but myself. GPG signed mail preferred.
``Like the ski resort of girls looking for husbands and husbands looking
for girls, the situation is not as symmetrical as it might seem.''
| |
| Goswin von Brederlow 2004-08-11, 5:57 pm |
| Anthony Towns <aj@azure.humbug.org.au> writes:
> On Wed, Aug 11, 2004 at 02:50:20AM +0200, Robert Millan wrote:
>
> It takes two to cooperate.
>
> What appears to be missing in this instance is any possibility
> of help from you in satisfying Ryan's goals; meanwhile calling Ryan
And we all have to get out our crystal balls and look what Ryans
mystical goals are?
> "uncooperative" on -devel and doing BSD specific NMUs when Debian's trying
> to freeze are both likely to actively work against Ryan's interests. Is it
> really unclear why you don't have an idyllically cooperative relationship
> with him?
So the fact that he did an NMU later is the reason for not getting
cooperation earlier. Great argument. You seem to do this a lot,
blameing the results for the cause.
The procedure is documented so follow it (if other more social means
have been exhausted).
[vbcol=seagreen]
> It sounds more like you're looking for an alternative way of getting
> what you want that doesn't require you to cooperate with Ryan. I don't
> actually think that's an entirely unreasonable thing to want, but it
> has different answers to the question you asked.
And the answere would be?
> Cheers,
> aj
MfG
Goswin
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| Andrew Suffield 2004-08-11, 5:57 pm |
| On Wed, Aug 11, 2004 at 02:00:52PM +0200, J?r?me Warnier wrote:
> I've done exactly the same thing[1] because ESD 0.2.29 with ALSA really
> doesn't make it.
That's nothing. I don't even *use* esd, but it still causes a
segfault-on-startup in anything on my box linked to libesd (#244840,
fixed months ago upstream, pending for three), and the only thing I
can realistically do about it is to rebuild packages without libesd.
This package is not maintained.
--
.''`. ** Debian GNU/Linux ** | Andrew Suffield
: :' : http://www.debian.org/ |
`. `' |
`- -><- |
| |
| Goswin von Brederlow 2004-08-11, 5:57 pm |
| Andrew Suffield <asuffield@debian.org> writes:
> On Wed, Aug 11, 2004 at 02:00:52PM +0200, J?r?me Warnier wrote:
>
> That's nothing. I don't even *use* esd, but it still causes a
> segfault-on-startup in anything on my box linked to libesd (#244840,
> fixed months ago upstream, pending for three), and the only thing I
> can realistically do about it is to rebuild packages without libesd.
>
> This package is not maintained.
Two more options:
Hijack (which would be hijacked back imediatly I guess) or upload
a new package under a different name.
MfG
Goswin
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| Jérôme Marant 2004-08-11, 5:57 pm |
| Selon Goswin von Brederlow <brederlo@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>:
> Two more options:
> Hijack (which would be hijacked back imediatly I guess) or upload
> a new package under a different name.
Hint: this package is maintained by a ftp-master ;-)
--
Jérôme Marant
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| Goswin von Brederlow 2004-08-11, 5:57 pm |
| Jérôme Marant <jmarant@free.fr> writes:
> Selon Goswin von Brederlow <brederlo@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>:
>
>
> Hint: this package is maintained by a ftp-master ;-)
Which doesn't apply to the general problem but just to this specific
case. And there must be times when ryan is away for a week or two. 
MfG
Goswin
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| Marcelo E. Magallon 2004-08-11, 8:48 pm |
| On Wed, Aug 11, 2004 at 11:41:28PM +0200, Jérôme Marant wrote:
>
> Hint: this package is maintained by a ftp-master ;-)
Are you suggesting that an ftp-master is going to abuse his role to
veto a package he doesn't approve of? If that happens we have a larger
problem that some pitty sound server not working...
Marcelo
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| Greg Folkert 2004-08-11, 8:48 pm |
| On Wed, 2004-08-11 at 20:16, Marcelo E. Magallon wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 11, 2004 at 11:41:28PM +0200, Jérôme Marant wrote:
>
>
> Are you suggesting that an ftp-master is going to abuse his role to
> veto a package he doesn't approve of? If that happens we have a larger
> problem that some pitty sound server not working...
I don't think he is insinuating that. I do believe that JM is referring
the levity of doing an NMU, is much more grave when an ftp-master is the
one that you are NMU'ing is one o'is packages. Best make sure all the
"eyes" dotted, "tees" crossed and follow the proscribed route.
Of course this is all conjecture, at least I really _hope_ it is.
--
greg, greg@gregfolkert.net
The technology that is
Stronger, better, faster: Linux
| |
| Goswin von Brederlow 2004-08-12, 2:49 am |
| Greg Folkert <greg@gregfolkert.net> writes:
> On Wed, 2004-08-11 at 20:16, Marcelo E. Magallon wrote:
>
> I don't think he is insinuating that. I do believe that JM is referring
> the levity of doing an NMU, is much more grave when an ftp-master is the
> one that you are NMU'ing is one o'is packages. Best make sure all the
> "eyes" dotted, "tees" crossed and follow the proscribed route.
I think he ment more that uploading a fork of a package of an
ftp-master could have trouble getting through queue/NEW. Reason for
denial: duplicate.
> Of course this is all conjecture, at least I really _hope_ it is.
MfG
Goswin
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| Andreas Barth 2004-08-12, 2:49 am |
| * Goswin von Brederlow (brederlo@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de) [040812 06:25]:
> Greg Folkert <greg@gregfolkert.net> writes:
[vbcol=seagreen]
[vbcol=seagreen]
[vbcol=seagreen]
> I think he ment more that uploading a fork of a package of an
> ftp-master could have trouble getting through queue/NEW. Reason for
> denial: duplicate.
I hope that ftp-master will reject in any case. There is no need to
duplicate packages in debian. If one package is broken, then fix it.
BTW, neither a NMUer nor d-devel could force the maintainer of any
package to take (or accept) a certain action. Only the technical
comitee can do that, so if you disagree with the maintainer (and if a
maintainer rolls back a NMU, this is definitly disagreement), you
could forward this issue to the TC.
Cheers,
Andi
--
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| Ondøej Surý 2004-08-12, 2:49 am |
| I think that crucial problem with Ryan (as seen by me), that he doesn't
communicate a lot.
I almost start to think that he is some mystical figure which was
thought out by some developers. Well I found some mails in 1999-2003
from him in archive (but last was in 2003/12), so he prolly really
exists :-D.
Some communication problems can be found back in 2001
(http://lists.debian.org/debian-deve...1/msg00929.html),
(http://lists.debian.org/debian-deve...7/msg00108.html),
but he did replied after all
(http://lists.debian.org/debian-deve...1/msg00949.html),
but that has not happened lately :-(.
And I think that is the main problem. Maybe he has some idea how to
maintain his packages, but going out and talking with other DD will
help.
You can defend him as much as you want, but there IS problem with Ryan.
I am not judging where the problem exactly is, but I have not seen so
much complaints on any other DD and his packages (in debian-devel list).
And those are just two packages esound and gdm.
O.
On Wed, 2004-08-11 at 18:17 +1000, Anthony Towns wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 11, 2004 at 02:50:20AM +0200, Robert Millan wrote:
>
> It takes two to cooperate.
--
Ondřej Surý <ondrej@sury.org>
| |
| Goswin von Brederlow 2004-08-12, 7:52 am |
| Andreas Barth <aba@not.so.argh.org> writes:
> * Goswin von Brederlow (brederlo@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de) [040812 06:25]:
>
>
>
>
> I hope that ftp-master will reject in any case. There is no need to
> duplicate packages in debian. If one package is broken, then fix it.
What is broken? Last I checked not following the latest upstream
version wasn't broken. If a maintainer does not do this and there is
disagreement about if it should be done (which fits this case)
uploading a second package following upstream more closely is a viable
option I think. Look at the packages with a foobar and foobar-cvs
flavour for example.
Sometimes duplicate packages are justified.
> BTW, neither a NMUer nor d-devel could force the maintainer of any
> package to take (or accept) a certain action. Only the technical
> comitee can do that, so if you disagree with the maintainer (and if a
> maintainer rolls back a NMU, this is definitly disagreement), you
> could forward this issue to the TC.
>
> Cheers,
> Andi
MfG
Goswin
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| Robert Millan 2004-08-12, 5:58 pm |
| On Wed, Aug 11, 2004 at 06:16:13PM -0600, Marcelo E. Magallon wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 11, 2004 at 11:41:28PM +0200, J?r?me Marant wrote:
>
>
> Are you suggesting that an ftp-master is going to abuse his role to
> veto a package he doesn't approve of? If that happens we have a larger
> problem that some pitty sound server not working...
But, there are vetoed packages already (stuck in the queue, waiting for a
REJECT that will never come..).
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| Robert Millan 2004-08-12, 5:58 pm |
| On Thu, Aug 12, 2004 at 08:44:17AM +0200, Andreas Barth wrote:
>
> I hope that ftp-master will reject in any case. There is no need to
> duplicate packages in debian. If one package is broken, then fix it.
>
> BTW, neither a NMUer nor d-devel could force the maintainer of any
> package to take (or accept) a certain action. Only the technical
> comitee can do that, so if you disagree with the maintainer (and if a
> maintainer rolls back a NMU, this is definitly disagreement), you
> could forward this issue to the TC.
The funny issue here is, that if his position is to postpone my patch untill
sarge, I don't object to it. But I basicaly have no idea on wether there
is a disagreement or not, and I don't have any grounds for relegating this
to the TC.
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| Robert Millan 2004-08-12, 5:58 pm |
| On Wed, Aug 11, 2004 at 10:20:45AM -0400, Daniel Burrows wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 11, 2004 at 02:58:56PM +0200, Robert Millan <rmh@debian.org> was heard to say:
>
> I don't think you can expect prompt responses to every wishlist bug --
> especially if the changes are basically OK but the maintainer doesn't
> want to upload them right now (because, for instance, they have no
> bearing on sarge and the autobuilders have backed-up queues a mile long
> of packages waiting to enter sarge).
>
> Obviously these bugs are important to you, but not everyone else will
> place them at the same priority level.
That's totaly correct. (And this is what NMUs are for).
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| Robert Millan 2004-08-12, 5:58 pm |
| On Wed, Aug 11, 2004 at 06:17:07PM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 11, 2004 at 02:50:20AM +0200, Robert Millan wrote:
>
> It takes two to cooperate.
True. I can show you practical examples in which I sent you bug reports and
your unwillingness to cooperate or even respond to the bug report trashed the
work I submitted. Want me to dig up?
> What appears to be missing in this instance is any possibility
> of help from you in satisfying Ryan's goals; meanwhile calling Ryan
> "uncooperative" on -devel and doing BSD specific NMUs when Debian's trying
> to freeze are both likely to actively work against Ryan's interests. Is it
> really unclear why you don't have an idyllically cooperative relationship
> with him?
1) You appear to be impliing that Ryan's goals don't include appliing patches
from bug reports he agrees with, and replying to bug reports he doesn't
agree with (particularly important when the submitter announced intent
to NMU).
2) I don't have any reason to disagree with Ryan's goals since I haven't
heard of them yet. What I do have is an objection to his behaviour, which
is completely different.
3) The phrase "doing BSD specific NMUs when Debian's trying to freeze" is a
pitiful attempt at pretending that my NMUs are against the freeze or the
release process. Argumenting like this, I could argue that adding new
features to a package, or packaging a new upstream during the freeze is
against the goals of the project.
(In fact, a wishlist item that requests adding a new feature or packaging
a new upstream version has a lot more potential to break things than a
porting patch that, in principle, has no effect on release arches.)
>
> It sounds more like you're looking for an alternative way of getting
> what you want that doesn't require you to cooperate with Ryan. I don't
> actually think that's an entirely unreasonable thing to want, but it
> has different answers to the question you asked.
That's not true. I never objected to put an NMU on hold for the sake of
benefitting the release process. When I announced intent to NMU libtiff
last week, I was notified that this could be disruptive for the libtiff4
ABI transition (which I was unaware of).
Steve Langasek told me that if I did the upload with urgency=medium before
Aug 5th, the "danger of causing a delay [was] minimal". I finaly opted for
putting the NMU on hold _on my own initiative_ without being asked to do so.
I encourage you to read the bug log (#227486), it's pretty illustrating on
how people can be cooperative. You could learn something from it.
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Robert Millan
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| |
| Robert Millan 2004-08-12, 5:58 pm |
| On Wed, Aug 11, 2004 at 08:11:27PM +0200, Goswin von Brederlow wrote:
>
> The procedure is documented so follow it (if other more social means
> have been exhausted).
So you suggest that I bring this to the technical committe? But all the
technical committe can do is judging wether the patch should be applied or
not. Pushing my patch during the at all cost is not what I want. I just
want to know how to deal with maintainers that don't fall in either of these
categories:
1) Accept my patch and apply it.
2) Reject my patch and reply to me.
3) Ignore me and let me NMU.
I have a clear social walkthrough for any of the above. In case 1 I say
thanks, in case 2 I ask why and try to solve the problem, in case 3 I upload
a fix. Is there any generic solution for these situations?
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| Goswin von Brederlow 2004-08-12, 5:58 pm |
| Robert Millan <rmh@debian.org> writes:
> On Wed, Aug 11, 2004 at 08:11:27PM +0200, Goswin von Brederlow wrote:
>
> So you suggest that I bring this to the technical committe? But all the
> technical committe can do is judging wether the patch should be applied or
> not. Pushing my patch during the at all cost is not what I want. I just
> want to know how to deal with maintainers that don't fall in either of these
> categories:
>
> 1) Accept my patch and apply it.
> 2) Reject my patch and reply to me.
> 3) Ignore me and let me NMU.
>
> I have a clear social walkthrough for any of the above. In case 1 I say
> thanks, in case 2 I ask why and try to solve the problem, in case 3 I upload
> a fix. Is there any generic solution for these situations?
Then ask our Leader to be mediator to facilitate communication. With
that you might (or might not) get one of the 3 above.
MfG
Goswin
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| Steve Greenland 2004-08-12, 5:58 pm |
| On 12-Aug-04, 10:04 (CDT), Robert Millan <rmh@debian.org> wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 11, 2004 at 10:20:45AM -0400, Daniel Burrows wrote:
>
> That's totaly correct. (And this is what NMUs are for).
Ah, no, they are not. They are for doing something that the maintainer
would do if zie had the time, and that fixes a significant bug. They are
not for implementing random wishlift stuff.
Steve
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The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating
system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the
world. -- seen on the net
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| Brian Nelson 2004-08-12, 5:58 pm |
| On Thu, Aug 12, 2004 at 03:04:39PM -0500, Steve Greenland wrote:
> On 12-Aug-04, 10:04 (CDT), Robert Millan <rmh@debian.org> wrote:
>
> Ah, no, they are not. They are for doing something that the maintainer
> would do if zie had the time, and that fixes a significant bug. They are
> not for implementing random wishlift stuff.
FTBFS bugs are not "random wishlist stuff", even if the failed arch is
unreleased.
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| Robert Millan 2004-08-12, 8:48 pm |
| On Thu, Aug 12, 2004 at 03:04:39PM -0500, Steve Greenland wrote:
> On 12-Aug-04, 10:04 (CDT), Robert Millan <rmh@debian.org> wrote:
>
> Ah, no, they are not. They are for doing something that the maintainer
> would do if zie had the time, and that fixes a significant bug. They are
> not for implementing random wishlift stuff.
I don't take my wishlist reports from /dev/random. Even though most of the
wishlist bugs I have sent lately are FTBFS bugs, feature requests are also a
valid reason to NMU if the maintainer doesn't object to them.
I would say that even cosmetical changes are ok for an NMU, provided that the
maintainer doesn't object to them (But I don't have interest in filing such
bugs, let alone interest to NMU).
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| David Weinehall 2004-08-13, 2:50 am |
| On Fri, Aug 13, 2004 at 04:20:02AM +0200, Robert Millan wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 12, 2004 at 03:04:39PM -0500, Steve Greenland wrote:
>
> I don't take my wishlist reports from /dev/random. Even though most of the
> wishlist bugs I have sent lately are FTBFS bugs, feature requests are also a
> valid reason to NMU if the maintainer doesn't object to them.
>
> I would say that even cosmetical changes are ok for an NMU, provided that the
> maintainer doesn't object to them (But I don't have interest in filing such
> bugs, let alone interest to NMU).
Just for the record, Ryan has just uploaded v0.2.34 (the latest upstream
version, afaik) of esd, so at least I am very pleased... Please try
that one (should be available in tomorrow's sync, at least on the
not-overloaded-buildd platforms...) before continuing with this thread,
ok?
Regards: David Weinehall
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// Maintainer of the v2.0 kernel // Dance across the winter sky //
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| Eduard Bloch 2004-08-13, 2:50 am |
| #include <hallo.h>
* David Weinehall [Fri, Aug 13 2004, 08:28:17AM]:
>
> Just for the record, Ryan has just uploaded v0.2.34 (the latest upstream
> version, afaik) of esd, so at least I am very pleased... Please try
Fine. After the gqview and esd now, this is almost suitable for the
best-packaging reference guide... 
Regards,
Eduard.
--
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The loud ones only take the credit."
L.M. ItB
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| Robert Millan 2004-08-13, 5:56 pm |
| On Fri, Aug 13, 2004 at 08:28:17AM +0200, David Weinehall wrote:
>
> Just for the record, Ryan has just uploaded v0.2.34 (the latest upstream
> version, afaik) of esd, so at least I am very pleased... Please try
> that one (should be available in tomorrow's sync, at least on the
> not-overloaded-buildd platforms...) before continuing with this thread,
> ok?
My porting patches are merged in upstream CVS, but didn't make it into
0.2.34 release. For what these are concerned it's just a question of time,
but the package also needs Debian-specific porting fixes.
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| David Schleef 2004-08-14, 5:50 pm |
| On Fri, Aug 13, 2004 at 08:28:17AM +0200, David Weinehall wrote:
> Just for the record, Ryan has just uploaded v0.2.34 (the latest upstream
> version, afaik) of esd,
Nope, Frederic just released 0.2.35 on Thursday.
dave...
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