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Home > Archive > Debian Developers > September 2004 > Please stop the flamewar madeness.
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Please stop the flamewar madeness.
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| Charles Plessy 2004-09-02, 6:55 pm |
| Hello,
I am not a DD, I am just a user.
debian-devel used to be an interesting place to keep an eye on
unstable (before testing was invented), and to learn useful tricks.
I would like to remind the flamers that, from an external
point of view, their mails carry 99% irrelevant informations, such as
who dislikes who. Spams about aphrodisiacs prices or blanking in
Nigeria are almost as interesting.
From an internal point of view, it may be as entertaining as a
soccer match. Who will win? Please realise that nobody but you cares.
Debian has high goals. They can only be attained by
high-standard work and behaviour.
debian-devel becomes less and less a tool, and more a
playground for ego contests.
Please do this elsewhere.
--
Charles Plessy,
Wako, Saitama, Japan.
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| Andrew Suffield 2004-09-02, 6:55 pm |
| On Wed, Sep 01, 2004 at 10:48:07PM +0900, Charles Plessy wrote:
> Please do this elsewhere.
What on *earth* are you referring to? I can see nothing obvious.
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| Jaldhar H. Vyas 2004-09-02, 6:55 pm |
| On Wed, 1 Sep 2004, Andrew Suffield wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 01, 2004 at 10:48:07PM +0900, Charles Plessy wrote:
>
> What on *earth* are you referring to? I can see nothing obvious.
>
>
He's a precog.
--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar@debian.org>
La Salle Debain - http://www.braincells.com/debian/
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| Francesco P. Lovergine 2004-09-02, 6:55 pm |
| On Wed, Sep 01, 2004 at 10:40:23AM -0400, Jaldhar H. Vyas wrote:
> On Wed, 1 Sep 2004, Andrew Suffield wrote:
>
>
> He's a precog.
>
Maybe he just did a search on d-d archive.
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| Andrew Suffield 2004-09-02, 6:55 pm |
| On Wed, Sep 01, 2004 at 05:21:52PM +0200, Francesco P. Lovergine wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 01, 2004 at 10:40:23AM -0400, Jaldhar H. Vyas wrote:
>
> Maybe he just did a search on d-d archive.
He's weeks late then. I see nothing in recent history.
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| Brian Nelson 2004-09-02, 8:48 pm |
| On Thu, Sep 02, 2004 at 05:04:16PM -0700, Joe Buck wrote:
> Andrew Suffield <asuffield@suffields.me.uk> writes:
>
> Are you being sarcastic?
>
> The list is full of unnecessary rudeness. Just look at the current
> thread where someone pointed out a bug in many mirror scripts, where
> the Packages file is transferred before the .deb files. For the sin
> of raising this real issue, heaps of insults were piled on the poor
> guy's head.
The reporter, Dan Jacobson, has a history of pissing a lot of
maintainers off with extremely trivial bug reports, so many
have a knee-jerk reaction and assume he's full of crap.
For example, see:
http://lists.debian.org/debian-qa/2003/02/msg00004.html
> The whole tone of the list is surprisingly and unnecessarily hostile.
> It doesn't look like any other developer list I know of, and I go way
> back (10+ years of experience on various free software development
> lists).
It can be hostile at times, but I don't think it's all that different
than other development lists.
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| John Hasler 2004-09-02, 8:48 pm |
| Brian Nelson writes:
> [This list] can be hostile at times, but I don't think it's all that
> different than other development lists.
It is in my experience (not that that should matter).
--
John Hasler
john@dhh.gt.org (John Hasler)
Dancing Horse Hill
Elmwood, WI
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| Andrew Suffield 2004-09-03, 7:50 am |
| On Thu, Sep 02, 2004 at 05:04:16PM -0700, Joe Buck wrote:
> Andrew Suffield <asuffield@suffields.me.uk> writes:
>
> Are you being sarcastic?
>
> The list is full of unnecessary rudeness.
[...]
> The whole tone of the list is surprisingly and unnecessarily hostile.
This is purely subjective.
One thing that *I* have observed, in more years than I care to
remember, is that "rudeness" and "hostility" are taken, not given. And
it's sheer hubris to think that everybody else shares your definition
of them.
Furthermore, it's irrelevant. Somebody with a different speech pattern
to you does not constitute a "flamewar".
> Just look at the current
> thread where someone pointed out a bug in many mirror scripts, where the
> Packages
> file is transferred before the .deb files. For the sin of raising this
> real issue,
> heaps of insults were piled on the poor guy's head.
Actually, it's for the sin of being the biggest pointless waste of
time Debian has ever experienced. As usual, he added nothing useful to
the subject.
Nonetheless, it *still* didn't qualify as a "flamewar" unless you're
completely nuts.
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| Manoj Srivastava 2004-09-03, 5:52 pm |
| On Thu, 02 Sep 2004 17:04:16 -0700, Joe Buck <Joe.Buck@synopsys.com> said:
> Andrew Suffield <asuffield@suffields.me.uk> writes:
[vbcol=seagreen]
> Are you being sarcastic?
> The list is full of unnecessary rudeness. Just look at the current
Rudeness? I also take exception to the characterization that
any such rudeness is unequivocally unnecessary; I would prefer a
little open frankness (and yes, brutal honesty can be rude) to mealy
mouthed obsequiousness and observation of the forms that precludes
telling the emperor that he ahas no clothes on.
> thread where someone pointed out a bug in many mirror scripts, where
> the Packages file is transferred before the .deb files. For the sin
> of raising this real issue, heaps of insults were piled on the poor
> guy's head.
The so called poor guy is merely reaping a fraction of the
wind that he has sowed in wasting the projects time with illogical
non-bugs; and yes, in this case a few knees jerked in response, but
the issue was not dismissed out of hand, despite the reporter.
> The whole tone of the list is surprisingly and unnecessarily
> hostile. It doesn't look like any other developer list I know of,
> and I go way back (10+ years of experience on various free software
> development lists).
10 years. Oh, I guess that precludes the roaring old times
when a certain finn wrote that he had modified an academic operating
system to his liking, and was roundly told he was a fool, or through
the gestation of openbsd.
And you seem to have missed out on the whole usenet thingy. In
the mean while, we are both contributing to the noise, and not the
signal, on this mailing list.
manoj
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| Scott James Remnant 2004-09-03, 5:52 pm |
| On Fri, 2004-09-03 at 13:31 +0100, Andrew Suffield wrote:
> Nonetheless, it *still* didn't qualify as a "flamewar" unless you're
> completely nuts.
>
Ugh, now this is definitely a thread in serious need of an invocation of
Goswin's law.
lit. As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of
Goswin von Brederlow hijacking it to XXXXX about his rejection
from NM/non-acceptance of his buildds/James Troup in general
approaches one.
Scott
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Have you ever, ever felt like this?
Had strange things happen? Are you going round the twist?
| |
| Goswin von Brederlow 2004-09-03, 5:52 pm |
| Scott James Remnant <scott@netsplit.com> writes:
> On Fri, 2004-09-03 at 13:31 +0100, Andrew Suffield wrote:
>
> Ugh, now this is definitely a thread in serious need of an invocation of
> Goswin's law.
>
> lit. As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of
> Goswin von Brederlow hijacking it to XXXXX about his rejection
> from NM/non-acceptance of his buildds/James Troup in general
> approaches one.
>
> Scott
> --
> Have you ever, ever felt like this?
> Had strange things happen? Are you going round the twist?
That would be Scott's law as laws are usualy named after they
inventor.
Goswin's law would be:
lit. As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of
Scott James Remnant to act like a jerk aproaches one.
Thank you for being an XXX.
Goswin
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| Christoph Haas 2004-09-04, 7:47 am |
| On Wed, Sep 01, 2004 at 06:28:07PM -0400, Travis Crump wrote:
> I have nothing against flamewars, have all of them you want, because you
> are right, one man's flamewar is another's rational discussion.
So true. Some people here choose a 'discussion style' that is very
insulting. Unless I know most people in private (which is completely
impossible in this list) I try to choose a tone that doesn't offend
anyone. Just that some people seem to think they are so long in the
project that they think they don't need to behave. Debian-devel is
a very bad figurehead for the project.
I just doubt this thread will change anything. Some folks are so
pigheaded that they don't even understand what we are talking about.
The security of anonymity in front of their tubes seems to turn them
into animals.
Christoph (dreaming of a politer list)
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| Manoj Srivastava 2004-09-04, 5:51 pm |
| On Sat, 4 Sep 2004 15:39:50 +0200, Christoph Haas <email@christoph-haas.de> said:
> On Wed, Sep 01, 2004 at 06:28:07PM -0400, Travis Crump wrote:
[vbcol=seagreen]
> So true. Some people here choose a 'discussion style' that is very
> insulting. Unless I know most people in private (which is completely
> impossible in this list) I try to choose a tone that doesn't offend
> anyone.
Which is utterly impossible to do. Point in question: I find
your patronizing style utterly offensive.
> Just that some people seem to think they are so long in the
> project that they think they don't need to behave. Debian-devel is a
> very bad figurehead for the project.
Would you care to name names, little one? This style of taking
pot shots at a large fgroup of people, but hiding behind the shield
of "I did not name names, so I can't possibly be insulting" is highly
irritating and insulting.
> I just doubt this thread will change anything. Some folks are so
> pigheaded that they don't even understand what we are talking about.
Living up on a high horse and callig people who do may happen
to to understand whatthe hell you are talking about under all these
circumlocutions and indirections "pigheaded" is trolling, and
probably flaming.
> The security of anonymity in front of their tubes seems to turn them
> into animals.
Which ones are these animals, pray? And how can they be
anonymous, unless they use psuedonyms, like our old freiend John
Galt?
I find this vague rants where the ranter is too cowardly to
actually name the names they are ranting against highly
irritating. And yes, I do mean you, Mr. Haas.
manoj
--
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| Christoph Haas 2004-09-04, 5:51 pm |
| On Sat, Sep 04, 2004 at 02:39:25PM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
>
> Which is utterly impossible to do. Point in question: I find
> your patronizing style utterly offensive.
I didn't mean to patronize anyone.
>
> Would you care to name names, little one?
Read the list. Be open minded. Try to read postings like you are new to
the project. I have had hours of talks to new maintainers on IRC who
felt driven away by some talks here. If people invest their spare-time
to improve such an interesting project like Debian the least they can
expect is a warmly welcome.
> This style of taking pot shots at a large fgroup of people, but hiding
> behind the shield of "I did not name names, so I can't possibly be
> insulting" is highly irritating and insulting.
Naming names hadn't improved anything IMHO. As I said I expect the
flamers to not understand their problem. Just a little more respect and
politeness would help the situation. If you don't believe that such
people exist you are definitely on the dark side.
In fact I directed my posting to the people who feel drowned by elitist
behavior and let them know that they are not alone.
There are people on the project I hardly know and who do very important
parts of the project. On the other hand there are people (no names) who
just talk and do nothing but have a fancy @debian.org address. If you
knew me you'd know how much time I invest into the project.
>
> Living up on a high horse and callig people who do may happen
> to to understand whatthe hell you are talking about under all these
> circumlocutions and indirections "pigheaded" is trolling, and
> probably flaming.
Hear, hear. 
> I find this vague rants where the ranter is too cowardly to actually
> name the names they are ranting against highly irritating. And yes, I
> do mean you, Mr. Haas.
I knew you were primarily talking to me. And I doubt a lot that you
would dare talk to me like that in person. I'd be disappointed if you
did.
Another poor posting displaying useless hostility. Just that I'm far too
long on the net to feel annoyed by it.
Christoph
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| Manoj Srivastava 2004-09-04, 5:51 pm |
| On Sat, 4 Sep 2004 22:10:02 +0200, Christoph Haas <email@christoph-haas.de> said:
> On Sat, Sep 04, 2004 at 02:39:25PM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
[vbcol=seagreen]
> I didn't mean to patronize anyone.
[vbcol=seagreen]
> Read the list. Be open minded. Try to read postings like you are new
> to the project. I have had hours of talks to new maintainers on IRC
> who felt driven away by some talks here. If people invest their
> spare-time to improve such an interesting project like Debian the
> least they can expect is a warmly welcome.
The nature of the list has changed very little since I joined
the project, really.
[vbcol=seagreen]
> Naming names hadn't improved anything IMHO. As I said I expect the
> flamers to not understand their problem. Just a little more respect
> and politeness would help the situation. If you don't believe that
> such people exist you are definitely on the dark side.
If you can get polite and respectful without listnazis and
style police that stifle the discussion, go right ahead and effect
the change (I doubt that it is practical, but far be it for me to
stand in the way of progress.
> In fact I directed my posting to the people who feel drowned by
> elitist behavior and let them know that they are not alone.
Elitism is not a bad thing, given wha5t the goals of the
project are. You can't create the best distribution of Linux there is
driven by mediocrity.
> There are people on the project I hardly know and who do very
> important parts of the project. On the other hand there are people
> (no names) who just talk and do nothing but have a fancy @debian.org
> address. If you knew me you'd know how much time I invest into the
> project.
You know, I think part of the problem is people who think of
Debian as a status game. Who the heck cares what other people think
of your stature, as long as you are getting to hack the OS into a
shape that is useful to you? All this concentration on Blah just
talks and only has a fancy address -- bleargh. Why is an email
address fancy? The person behind the email is far more important than
a handle to direct smtp traffic their way.
People who care about the email address are so childishly
jejune that their utterances ought to go straight to the bit bucket.
[vbcol=seagreen]
> Hear, hear.
Glad you concur.
[vbcol=seagreen]
> I knew you were primarily talking to me. And I doubt a lot that you
> would dare talk to me like that in person. I'd be disappointed if
> you did.
Hell, I talk on the list exactly the same as I would in
person. I am not so insecure that I need develop a secondary persona
in email. If you wish, I'll give you a personal demonstration at the
next conference we happen to go to.
> Another poor posting displaying useless hostility. Just that I'm far
> too long on the net to feel annoyed by it.
Yet another posting full of mindless drivel. And I am too
inured by many such to find it dismaying.
manoj
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| Andrew Suffield 2004-09-04, 5:51 pm |
| On Sat, Sep 04, 2004 at 10:10:02PM +0200, Christoph Haas wrote:
> On Sat, Sep 04, 2004 at 02:39:25PM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
>
> I didn't mean to patronize anyone.
Yeah, well, nobody "meant" to insult you either. If wishes were horses
then we'd all have horsemeat for lunch. Doesn't stop you being
offensive, nor is it a valid excuse.
>
> Naming names hadn't improved anything IMHO. As I said I expect the
> flamers to not understand their problem. Just a little more respect and
> politeness would help the situation.
Show some then, if you think it would help so much. If nothing else
it'll be amusing to see you try. Currently you are showing gross
disrespect and bad manners. Personally I don't care, but since you
apparently do, maybe you should do something about the example you
set.
--
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`. `' |
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| Andrew Suffield 2004-09-04, 5:51 pm |
| On Sat, Sep 04, 2004 at 03:58:05PM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
>
> You know, I think part of the problem is people who think of
> Debian as a status game. Who the heck cares what other people think
> of your stature, as long as you are getting to hack the OS into a
> shape that is useful to you? All this concentration on Blah just
> talks and only has a fancy address -- bleargh. Why is an email
> address fancy? The person behind the email is far more important than
> a handle to direct smtp traffic their way.
>
> People who care about the email address are so childishly
> jejune that their utterances ought to go straight to the bit bucket.
Sheesh, such people actually exist? An email address is like a
telephone number. It is a contact path. You are not your telephone
number, and nor does it represent you in any particular way other than
being a contact path.
>
> Hell, I talk on the list exactly the same as I would in
> person. I am not so insecure that I need develop a secondary persona
> in email. If you wish, I'll give you a personal demonstration at the
> next conference we happen to go to.
I can think of few things quite so rude as people who act differently
in public, in private, or whenever they think somebody in particular
isn't listening. It's a variation of the quite repulsive principle
that appearences matter more than actions - "It doesn't matter what I
say about them, so long as they don't know about it".
--
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