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spam from chinanet
|
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| martin f krafft 2004-09-15, 10:38 am |
| Dear developers,
Over the past 2 months, about 80 or 90% of the spam I received
through @d.o came from the networks of Chinanet. I have reported
every issue, but they never responded, nor are they taking counter
measures. Some of the spammer's IPs have remained constant. This
suggests to me that they are spammer-cooperative (or generally
incompetent).
May I suggest that we block Chinanet? Their subnets are
222.64.0.0/13
222.72.0.0/15
202.108.181.0/24
221.224.0.0/13
218.78.0.0/15
218.80.0.0/14
Or you can use rbl.madduck.net, which filters them. I think we could
potentially cut a lot of spam by blocking these IPs.
Cheers,
--
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.''`. martin f. krafft <madduck@debian.org>
: :' : proud Debian developer, admin, and user
`. `'`
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| |
| David Palmer 2004-09-15, 10:38 am |
| martin f krafft wrote:
>Dear developers,
>
>Over the past 2 months, about 80 or 90% of the spam I received
>through @d.o came from the networks of Chinanet. I have reported
>every issue, but they never responded, nor are they taking counter
>measures. Some of the spammer's IPs have remained constant. This
>suggests to me that they are spammer-cooperative (or generally
>incompetent).
>
>May I suggest that we block Chinanet? Their subnets are
>
>222.64.0.0/13
>222.72.0.0/15
>202.108.181.0/24
>221.224.0.0/13
>218.78.0.0/15
>218.80.0.0/14
>
>Or you can use rbl.madduck.net, which filters them. I think we could
>potentially cut a lot of spam by blocking these IPs.
>
>Cheers,
>
>
>
I'd probably add Kornet (Korea) to that, and block all of it.
Regards,
David.
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| |
| Don Armstrong 2004-09-15, 10:38 am |
| On Wed, 15 Sep 2004, martin f krafft wrote:
> Over the past 2 months, about 80 or 90% of the spam I received
> through @d.o came from the networks of Chinanet.
>
> May I suggest that we block Chinanet? Their subnets are
Can you state unequivocally that there are no present or future users,
developers, or other people who would legitimately mail debian.org
that use Chinanet?
If not, as I strongly suspect is the case, blocking such a wide swath
of ips [or any ip ranges in general] is not acceptable.
That being said, I personally see no reason not to use RBLs that
include such ips to increase the spamassassin score of messages... but
placement on RBLs should never be enough to cause a message to be get
a hard reject from Debian mailing lists or d.o.
Don Armstrong
--
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a ajouter, mais quand il n'y a plus rien a retrancher.
(Perfection is apparently not achieved when nothing more can be added,
but when nothing else can be removed.)
-- Antoine de Saint-Exupe'ry, Terres des Hommes
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| martin f krafft 2004-09-15, 10:38 am |
| also sprach Don Armstrong <don@donarmstrong.com> [2004.09.15.1200 +0200]:
> Can you state unequivocally that there are no present or future
> users, developers, or other people who would legitimately mail
> debian.org that use Chinanet?
They should use their smarthosts.
> That being said, I personally see no reason not to use RBLs that
> include such ips to increase the spamassassin score of messages...
> but placement on RBLs should never be enough to cause a message to
> be get a hard reject from Debian mailing lists or d.o.
And I find it unacceptable that debian.org machines relay spam.
--
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.''`. martin f. krafft <madduck@debian.org>
: :' : proud Debian developer, admin, and user
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| |
| Cameron Patrick 2004-09-15, 10:38 am |
| martin f krafft wrote:
>
> They should use their smarthosts.
Why? If their ISP mail relays are run as badly as some of the ones
here in WA seem to be, you will be making people choose between having
their mail delayed for hours (or even days) at times due to overloaded
ISP mail servers[1]; or being blocked from mailing debian.org.
Cameron.
[1] Ironically enough, often because the same servers are forced to
put up with massive loads of incoming spam and viruses.
| |
| martin f krafft 2004-09-15, 10:38 am |
| also sprach Cameron Patrick <cameron@patrick.wattle.id.au> [2004.09.15.1220+0200]:
> Why? If their ISP mail relays are run as badly as some of the
> ones here in WA seem to be, you will be making people choose
> between having their mail delayed for hours (or even days) at
> times due to overloaded ISP mail servers[1]; or being blocked from
> mailing debian.org.
So why do you subscribe to the services of an incompetent ISP?
--
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.''`. martin f. krafft <madduck@debian.org>
: :' : proud Debian developer, admin, and user
`. `'`
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| |
| Petter Reinholdtsen 2004-09-15, 10:38 am |
| [Martin F Krafft]
> Over the past 2 months, about 80 or 90% of the spam I received
> through @d.o came from the networks of Chinanet.
How many legitime emails came from these networks through @d.o?
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| |
| Adrian 'Dagurashibanipal' von Bidder 2004-09-15, 10:38 am |
| | |
| Don Armstrong 2004-09-15, 10:38 am |
| On Wed, 15 Sep 2004, martin f krafft wrote:
> also sprach Don Armstrong <don@donarmstrong.com> [2004.09.15.1200 +0200]:
>
> They should use their smarthosts.
I guess that means that you can't state it unequivocally. [And it's
not like upstream SMTP servers don't get added to RBLs... the one I'm
using from here has been added a few times.]
>
> And I find it unacceptable that debian.org machines relay spam.
I don't like the idea of it either, but allowing some spam through is
better than arbitrarily blocking legitimate messages based solely on
the netblock of their origin.
Don Armstrong
--
Il semble que la perfection soit atteinte non quand il n'y a plus rien
a ajouter, mais quand il n'y a plus rien a retrancher.
(Perfection is apparently not achieved when nothing more can be added,
but when nothing else can be removed.)
-- Antoine de Saint-Exupe'ry, Terres des Hommes
http://www.donarmstrong.com http://rzlab.ucr.edu
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| Marco d'Itri 2004-09-15, 10:38 am |
| On Sep 15, martin f krafft <madduck@debian.org> wrote:
> Over the past 2 months, about 80 or 90% of the spam I received
> through @d.o came from the networks of Chinanet. I have reported
I agree that we need a way to filter spam sent to @debian.org and
@packages.debian.org addresses, but I do not believe that local lists
are the solution, because they would quickly become out of date.
(BTW, you only listed a small part of chinanet, and not all chinanet
regions are black hat. SBL+XBL should cover all major sources.)
--
ciao, |
Marco | [8017 sioDcaIGrQxyI]
| |
| martin f krafft 2004-09-15, 10:38 am |
| also sprach Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT> [2004.09.15.1319 +0200]:
> I agree that we need a way to filter spam sent to @debian.org and
> @packages.debian.org addresses, but I do not believe that local
> lists are the solution, because they would quickly become out of
> date.
rbl.debian.org
> (BTW, you only listed a small part of chinanet, and not all
> chinanet regions are black hat. SBL+XBL should cover all major
> sources.)
i only listed those that sent spam, iteratively decreasing the
netmask to fuse networks over a period of a couple of weeks.
also sprach Adrian 'Dagurashibanipal' von Bidder <avbidder@fortytwo.ch> [2004.09.15.1353 +0200]:
> You are aware that Chine isn't exactly your average capitalist
> country where you're free to pick any ISP you want?
Sure, but why should that allow them to host spammers? I realise
this argument is getting nowhere...
Have better suggestions? I am sick and tired because literally 99%
of the spam I see comes through master and gluck.
--
Please do not CC me when replying to lists; I read them!
.''`. martin f. krafft <madduck@debian.org>
: :' : proud Debian developer, admin, and user
`. `'`
`- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing a system
Invalid/expired PGP subkeys? Use subkeys.pgp.net as keyserver!
| |
| Lionel Elie Mamane 2004-09-15, 10:38 am |
| On Wed, Sep 15, 2004 at 01:53:31PM +0200, Adrian 'Dagurashibanipal' von Bidder wrote:
> On Wednesday 15 September 2004 12.22, martin f krafft wrote:
[vbcol=seagreen]
> You are aware that Chine isn't exactly your average capitalist
> country where you're free to pick any ISP you want?
And that even in very capitalistic countries, there might be only one
or two or three cable/DSL ISPs in one area, and they all suck? Or you
choose an ISP, discover too late it sucks and are stuck with a
one-year contract?
--
Lionel
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| Florian Weimer 2004-09-15, 10:38 am |
| * Marco d'Itri:
> On Sep 15, martin f krafft <madduck@debian.org> wrote:
>
[vbcol=seagreen]
> I agree that we need a way to filter spam sent to @debian.org and
> @packages.debian.org addresses, but I do not believe that local lists
> are the solution, because they would quickly become out of date.
Lists based on regular expressions for reverse lookup are quite stable
and not a big trouble to maintain, especially if your listing
criterion is not related to the spam amount.
I would recommend the following steps:
1. Find a team (two or three people are probably enough) that is
willing to maintain the blacklist.
2. Add a field to LDAP which developers can use to indicate if they
want the filter or not.
3. Decide which @debian.org addresses have to be exempt from
filtering (postmaster@, for example, and the address to report
filter issues).
4. Add a pseudo-package to the BTS to which filter change requests
can be submitted, and which is exempted from filtering.
5. Decide on the filtering algorithm. My proposal is:
a. Verify the HELO name, i.e. check that its forward lookup
matches the IP address.
b. If the HELO name is valid, it becomes the Originator Host
Name. Otherwise, the reverse lookup of the submitting IP
address is the Originator Host Name.
c. Lookup the Originator Host Name in the blacklist. Check if
the recipient is exempt from filtering.
d. If the Originator Host Name is not in the blacklist, accept
the message. If it is, but the recipient is not filtered,
record the blacklist check in the message header. Otherwise,
reject the message.
These steps would have to be performed for each RCPT TO: command
in the SMTP dialog.
6. Decide on a policy for the blacklists used in step 5:
a. What are the listing criteria?
b. Do we accept manual exclusions? If yes, in which cases?
c. Do we want to publish the lists?
My proposals:
a. We list everything that looks like an auto-generated host
name, unless the host names refer to a mail cluster.
b. Errors will be corrected, exclusions will not happen (but
see below).
c. Only DDs have access to the list. Debian should not enter
the RBL business because of the accompanying risk of DDoS
attacks. In addition, the algorithm of step 5 becomes
useless if it is universally used and spammers adapt their
tactics.
7. Implement the algorithm of step 5 in an Exim 4 ACL.
8. Wait until Exim 4 is availabe on all Debian MXes. (There's no
point in trying to do this with Exim 3.)
9. Devise a means to distribute the blacklist to all MXes (probably
using rsync).
10. Deploy it on all Debian MXes.
The proposed algorithm in step 5 and the listing policy in step 6 are
designed to stop spam which is submitted directly from dial-up/cable
mode/DSL hosts. However, if someone correctly uses his own domain
name in the HELO string, it is possible to avoid the filters. The
same is true if the ISP's smart host is used. This policy has the
important property that it is relatively transparent, and it's usually
quite clear if a blacklist entry is correct or not.
This doesn't do away with spam over webmailers (or other service
providers that don't handle abuse). Tracking those is certainly more
painful, but depending on the fraction of spam that comes over these
hosts, this could be defered to a second step.
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| |
| David Palmer 2004-09-15, 10:38 am |
| Don Armstrong wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Sep 2004, martin f krafft wrote:
>
>
>
> Can you state unequivocally that there are no present or future
> users, developers, or other people who would legitimately mail
> debian.org that use Chinanet?
>
I've been monitoring incessant hits from both Chinanet and Kornet for
months without noting one positive aspect.
These are major spam contractors from what I have been able to discern.
I can't believe that the providers are totally unaware of the situation,
given the volumn that I have witnessed, each I.P. address also doing
multiple port scans.
If there's any genuine traffic coming out of either of them, I haven't
seen it, and it would be radically out of environment.
Regards,
David.
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| |
| Wouter Verhelst 2004-09-15, 8:52 pm |
| On Wed, Sep 15, 2004 at 12:22:54PM +0200, martin f krafft wrote:
> also sprach Cameron Patrick <cameron@patrick.wattle.id.au> [2004.09.15.1220 +0200]:
>
> So why do you subscribe to the services of an incompetent ISP?
Because sometimes you don't have a choice.
* The incompetent ISP could be the only affordable option.
* Your incompetent boss may have made a horrible decision.
* The incompetent ISP could be a monopoly, *forcing* you to use them.
Blocking people because of their ISP is silly.
--
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| Arne Götje (高盛華) 2004-09-15, 8:52 pm |
| | |
| Zhao Wei 2004-09-15, 8:52 pm |
| On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 07:45:07 +0200, martin f krafft <madduck@debian.org> wrote:
> May I suggest that we block Chinanet? Their subnets are
oh please don't do that. spam is bad. but block ALL of us
is oh my god please don't.
we already have enough being blocked.
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| Adrian 'Dagurashibanipal' von Bidder 2004-09-16, 11:15 am |
| | |
| Florian Weimer 2004-09-16, 11:15 am |
| * Arne G=F6tje:
>
> what about using greylisting for those nets on the rbl list?
Greylisting is gaining so much momentum that the spammers will soon
have queues (or some efficient approximation) on their zombies.
| |
| Hamish Moffatt 2004-09-16, 11:15 am |
| On Wed, Sep 15, 2004 at 06:20:04PM +0800, Cameron Patrick wrote:
> Why? If their ISP mail relays are run as badly as some of the ones
> here in WA seem to be, you will be making people choose between having
> their mail delayed for hours (or even days) at times due to overloaded
> ISP mail servers[1]; or being blocked from mailing debian.org.
Could debian.org provide a relay service for debian developers?
A developer could submit a CRAM-MD5 password or similar; the relay
server would relay for anyone who authenticated themselves. Only
allow authentication on TLS connections to make it secure. etc.
I do this with my own mail, after my ADSL provider's mail servers got
listed in one of the RBLs recently for about 24 hours.
Hamish
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| Giacomo A. Catenazzi 2004-09-22, 9:17 pm |
| Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 15, 2004 at 12:22:54PM +0200, martin f krafft wrote:
>
>
>
> Because sometimes you don't have a choice.
>
> * The incompetent ISP could be the only affordable option.
> * Your incompetent boss may have made a horrible decision.
> * The incompetent ISP could be a monopoly, *forcing* you to use them.
>
> Blocking people because of their ISP is silly.
>
But if the benefice/cost is big I find really no problems.
If there is a loooooots of spam from one ISP and
no or few potential users, I don't see problems.
If they need to email us, they can still use gmx, yahoo, gmail,...
and then in a secundary moment we remove the block
ciao
cate
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| Stephen Gran 2004-09-22, 9:17 pm |
| This one time, at band camp, Giacomo A. Catenazzi said:
> Wouter Verhelst wrote:
>
> But if the benefice/cost is big I find really no problems.
> If there is a loooooots of spam from one ISP and
> no or few potential users, I don't see problems.
> If they need to email us, they can still use gmx, yahoo, gmail,...
> and then in a secundary moment we remove the block
The problem is the false positive. There are many ISP's that are both
on RBL's and don't take bounces. This means that a user who sends us
an email about a problem gets blocked by our RBL, and never knows they
got blocked - they just think they never got an answer. I think the
cost is too high, myself. I agree that the spam situation (everywhere,
not just here) is ridiculous, but there are other ways to get it down.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------
| ,''`. Stephen Gran |
| : :' : sgran@debian.org |
| `. `' Debian user, admin, and developer |
| `- http://www.debian.org |
-----------------------------------------------------------------
| |
| Changwoo Ryu 2004-09-22, 9:17 pm |
| 2004-09-15, 17:35 +0800, David Palmer wrote:
> martin f krafft wrote:
> I'd probably add Kornet (Korea) to that, and block all of it.
It'll block about 60% of the Korean users including me.
I couldn't find other ISPs which are better than Kornet in my place.
And alternative ISPs in Korea are also the same or worse spam sources
than Kornet. Kornet is just a relatively huge one.
--
Changwoo Ryu <cwryu@debian.org>
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| Sven Mueller 2004-09-22, 9:17 pm |
| Changwoo Ryu [u] wrote on 16/09/2004 22:16:
> 2004-09-15, 17:35 +0800, David Palmer wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> It'll block about 60% of the Korean users including me.
The above list of networks won't have you blocked. Your IP is in
211.0.0.0/8 which isn't part of the above list.
This is from your mail:
> Received: from relay5.kornet.net (relay5.kornet.net [211.48.62.165])
> by murphy.debian.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 056FF2DDB2
> for <debian-devel@lists.debian.org>; Thu, 16 Sep 2004 15:16:20 -0500 (CDT)
> Received: from [211.219.73.111] (cwryu@debian.org) by
> relay5.kornet.net (Terrace MailWatcher)
As the original poster said: He didn't see any valid email from the
networks quoted above, but lots of spam. The same goes for me. And I
regard your mail as quite valid ;-)
Regards,
Sven
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| Oliver Elphick 2004-09-22, 9:17 pm |
| On Thu, 2004-09-16 at 21:23, Sven Mueller wrote:
....
....[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> The above list of networks won't have you blocked. Your IP is in
> 211.0.0.0/8 which isn't part of the above list.
The above list is of Chinanet, not Kornet.
--
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Isle of Wight http://www.lfix.co.uk/oliver
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========================================
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surrounding us, let us also lay aside every weight,
and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us
run with endurance the race that is set before us."
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| Chip Salzenberg 2004-09-22, 9:17 pm |
| I recommend countries.nerd.dk for country filtering.
--
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| Marco d'Itri 2004-09-22, 9:17 pm |
| On Sep 16, Stephen Gran <sgran@debian.org> wrote:
> The problem is the false positive. There are many ISP's that are both
> on RBL's and don't take bounces. This means that a user who sends us
Many people do very stupid things, you know. But there is no reason we
have to work around their stupidity.
--
ciao, |
Marco | [8040 vanInVmyFxe3Q]
| |
| Jaakko Niemi 2004-09-22, 9:17 pm |
| On Wed, 15 Sep 2004, martin f krafft wrote:
> also sprach Petter Reinholdtsen <pere@hungry.com> [2004.09.15.1226 +0200]:
>
> None that I saw. I am subscribed to most mailing lists.
Not to debian-chinese-*, I guess.
But hey, at least they have balls to actually execute spammers
in China 
--j
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| martin f krafft 2004-09-22, 9:17 pm |
| also sprach Adrian 'Dagurashibanipal' von Bidder <avbidder@fortytwo.ch> [2004.09.16.0838 +0200]:
> :0:
> * ^X-Mailing-List: <debian-.+@lists.debian.org>
> * ^X-Spam-Status: Yes
> /dev/null
Since I employ spamassassin myself, I am already doing this. I said
that 99% of the email that makes it through my spamassassin, or the
debian.org spamassassins are from debian.org addresses.
spamassassin is not really up to speed anymore, especially if it's
done for lists. bayesian filtering is more successful, but that of
course will not work for lists.
apart: you hardly need to use procmail locking for /dev/null...
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.''`. martin f. krafft <madduck@debian.org>
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`. `'`
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| |
| martin f krafft 2004-09-22, 9:17 pm |
| also sprach Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT> [2004.09.16.1424 +0200]:
> If the project cannot, I'm sure that many developers are available to do
> this (I am, but only using UUCP).
I would. secure smtp (port 465 though).
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.''`. martin f. krafft <madduck@debian.org>
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`. `'`
`- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing a system
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| |
| Adrian 'Dagurashibanipal' von Bidder 2004-09-22, 9:17 pm |
| | |
| Clemens Schwaighofer 2004-09-22, 9:18 pm |
| -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On 09/19/2004 08:49 PM, martin f krafft wrote:
| also sprach Adrian 'Dagurashibanipal' von Bidder
<avbidder@fortytwo.ch> [2004.09.16.0838 +0200]:
| spamassassin is not really up to speed anymore, especially if it's
| done for lists. bayesian filtering is more successful, but that of
| course will not work for lists.
with rules_de_jour you can fix that. But if you use all default rules
spamassassin needs 4s to 30s to scan a mail and eats around 50mb RAM.
But some of those rules are quite good. Keep my spam count very low.
Even in lists.
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| |
| Russell Coker 2004-09-24, 5:52 pm |
| On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 11:53, Zhao Wei <zhaoway@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 07:45:07 +0200, martin f krafft <madduck@debian.org>
wrote:
>
> oh please don't do that. spam is bad. but block ALL of us
> is oh my god please don't.
>
> we already have enough being blocked.
What's the problem when you can just use gmail.com?
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| Stig Sandbeck Mathisen 2004-09-24, 5:52 pm |
| On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 01:30:16 +1000, Russell Coker <russell@coker.com.au> wrote:
> What's the problem when you can just use gmail.com?
Some users might prefer to receive, sort, store and send mail on their
own Debian machine.
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| Florian Weimer 2004-09-24, 5:52 pm |
| * Russell Coker:
> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 11:53, Zhao Wei <zhaoway@gmail.com> wrote:
> wrote:
>
> What's the problem when you can just use gmail.com?
Tomorrow, a Chinese competitor could open, and the Chinese government
might block access to gmail.com. Oops.
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| Zhao Wei 2004-09-24, 8:49 pm |
| On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 01:30:16 +1000, Russell Coker <russell@coker.com.au> wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 11:53, Zhao Wei <zhaoway@gmail.com> wrote:
> wrote:
>
> What's the problem when you can just use gmail.com?
not everyone want to use gmail. not everyone have gmail invitations.
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