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Home > Archive > Debian Developers > September 2004 > XDM, GDM, KDM, WDM shootout :-)
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XDM, GDM, KDM, WDM shootout :-)
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| Osamu Aoki 2004-09-25, 5:55 pm |
| Hi, this is FYI.
I made a comparison of 4 main display managers in Debian (unstable):
* XDM - the good old one
* GDM - the Gnome one
* WDM - the WindowMaker one
* KDM - the KDE one
The result of comparison is (+ is yes, - is no):
1) Use of 2) Choice 3) Choice 4) Customized 5) User
Xsession.d of WM of Locale Startup List
XDM ++ -- -- ++ -
GDM + + ++ some alt. ++
KDM -- + -- custom ++
WDM ++ +- -- -- -
Conclusion:
In short, for most cases GDM seems to be the best :-)
Also, I realized as CJK user that there is no standard way to set up
start up script under menu chosen WM. This is major problem for CJK
user who needs to set up keyboard input set up (sometimes daemon). I
hear that Mandrake uses ~/.i18n and SUSE uses ~/.xim. There is no
hook script in /etc/X11/Xsession.d/ to read this kind of files.
Something needs to be done.
Here, the verbose meaning of above comparison are:
1) Use of /etc/X11/Xsession.d/
2) Choice of session/window manager by menu
3) Choice of locales by menu
4) Customizable start up like ~/.xsession
5) User list (if customized, default can be on/off)
========================================
==============================
Detailed review results.
* XDM: Simplest, light and works.
This is reference DM. Not much menu as expected.
* GDM: The best of all and flashy graphics (even for KDE).
Its start up script does not call /etc/X11/Xsession, but practically
the same code with GDM specific enhancement is executed to run scripts
in /etc/X11/Xsession.d/.
For the choice of WM, I did not see xfce. But it was OK.
For custom startup, ~/.gnomerc is run. This is only for
gnome-session. Although custom mode should run ~/.xsession, I do not
see custom in menu. Besides, use of ~/.xsession by its nature
override menu selected WM. For non gnome-session, I do not see easy
way to provide user customization with default install.
Default start mode is user selectable. (Can be annoying)
Linked to gnome and many library. Can be heavy.
* KDM: Good but why strange startup?
Its start up script does not call /etc/X11/Xsession nor bother to use
/etc/X11/Xsession.d/. Thus out of lack with ssh-agent. (Bug #265865)
Locale choice does not exist.
Custom mode should run ~/.xsession.
Default is always KDE.
* WDM: Simple but gives you choice of WM
For the choice of WM, I saw false listing of metacity which itself is
useless. But it was OK.
Locale choice does not exist.
It looks lightest as WM selectable DM.
* General
It looks like auto listing of available WM are tricky. Despite some
glitches I saw, it was usable. I think if there is a standard way to
list available session manager / display manager, it can be better, I
think.
--
~\^o^/~~~ ~\^.^/~~~ ~\^*^/~~~ ~\^_^/~~~ ~\^+^/~~~ ~\^:^/~~~ ~\^v^/~~~ +++++
Osamu Aoki <osamu@debian.org> Brussels Belgium, GPG-key: A8061F32
.''`. Debian Reference: post-installation user's guide for non-developers
: :' : http://qref.sf.net and http://people.debian.org/~osamu
`. `' "Our Priorities are Our Users and Free Software" --- Social Contract
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| Noah Meyerhans 2004-09-25, 5:55 pm |
| On Sun, Sep 26, 2004 at 01:11:32AM +0200, Osamu Aoki wrote:
> * General
> It looks like auto listing of available WM are tricky. Despite some
> glitches I saw, it was usable. I think if there is a standard way to
> list available session manager / display manager, it can be better, I
> think.
I'm the wdm maintainer. I use the alternatives system to figure out
what window managers and session managers are available. IMO, if a
window manager is useless on its own, then it should not provide an
option for the x-window-manager alternative.
This same basic issue came up in bug 194195, which is filed against wdm
but I claim is a problem with xfce4. xfce4 provides an x-window-manger
alternative, but doesn't actually work if you start it on its own; it
needs some kind of session manager to work.
noah
| |
| Josselin Mouette 2004-09-25, 8:49 pm |
| Le dimanche 26 septembre 2004 à 01:11 +0200, Osamu Aoki a écrit :
> It looks like auto listing of available WM are tricky. Despite some
> glitches I saw, it was usable. I think if there is a standard way to
> list available session manager / display manager, it can be better, I
> think.
The standard way is to ship freedesktop.org .desktop files
in /usr/share/xsessions. GDM and KDM both know of it, the real problem
is that not all session/window managers use it.
--
.''`. Josselin Mouette /\./\
: :' : josselin.mouette@ens-lyon.org
`. `' joss@debian.org
`- Debian GNU/Linux -- The power of freedom
| |
| David Palmer 2004-09-25, 8:49 pm |
| Noah Meyerhans wrote:
> On Sun, Sep 26, 2004 at 01:11:32AM +0200, Osamu Aoki wrote:
>
>
>
> I'm the wdm maintainer. I use the alternatives system to figure out
> what window managers and session managers are available. IMO, if a
> window manager is useless on its own, then it should not provide an
> option for the x-window-manager alternative.
>
From a relative newbie point of view, wdm is the one I finally settled
on, even though I run predominantly gnome apps.
The recent gdm/locales/console mess I simply didn't need.
I find wdm is as functional as I need it to be and stable, more
attractive to the eye than xdm, and without any gaudy overkill to take
up space.
I don't use KDE so haven't used kdm.
Regards,
David.
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| Oliver Bausinger 2004-09-26, 5:55 pm |
| On Sunday, 26. September 2004 01:11, Osamu Aoki wrote:
>
> * KDM: Good but why strange startup?
>
> Its start up script does not call /etc/X11/Xsession nor bother to use
> /etc/X11/Xsession.d/. Thus out of lack with ssh-agent. (Bug #265865)
Hm?
bausi@lima:~$ cat /etc/kde3/kdm/kdmrc | grep Xsession
Session=/etc/kde3/kdm/Xsession
bausi@lima:~$ cat /etc/kde3/kdm/Xsession
#! /bin/sh
# Xsession - run as user
# invoke global X session script
.. /etc/X11/Xsession
>
> Locale choice does not exist.
>
> Custom mode should run ~/.xsession.
>
> Default is always KDE.
It recalls the last session used. (see ~/.dmrc)
Greetings
Bausi
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| |
| Chris Cheney 2004-09-26, 5:55 pm |
| On Sun, Sep 26, 2004 at 01:11:32AM +0200, Osamu Aoki wrote:
-snip-
> * KDM: Good but why strange startup?
>
> Its start up script does not call /etc/X11/Xsession nor bother to use
> /etc/X11/Xsession.d/. Thus out of lack with ssh-agent. (Bug #265865)
This was fixed with kdebase 3.3.0a-1 upload which be in sid after
dinstall today. It had worked prior to the original KDE 3.3.0 upload but
I accidentally dropped a patch which I have readded.
> Locale choice does not exist.
You can configure locale for KDM in:
Control Center -> System Administration -> Login Manager
> Custom mode should run ~/.xsession.
'custom' does nothing now, I should look into how to remove the option.
'default' mode runs ~/.Xsession as it should.
> Default is always KDE.
'default' now works properly since I fixed the Xsession file to use the
Debian /etc/X11/Xsession file.
Chris
| |
| Matthew Dempsky 2004-09-26, 5:55 pm |
| Chris Cheney <ccheney@cheney.cx> writes:
> On Sun, Sep 26, 2004 at 01:11:32AM +0200, Osamu Aoki wrote:
>
>
> You can configure locale for KDM in:
>
> Control Center -> System Administration -> Login Manager
GDM has a drop-down menu that users may select a locale from when
logging in. Why can only the administrator choose what locale the
users can interact with?
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| Osamu Aoki 2004-09-26, 5:55 pm |
| On Sat, Sep 25, 2004 at 07:39:46PM -0400, Noah Meyerhans wrote:
> On Sun, Sep 26, 2004 at 01:11:32AM +0200, Osamu Aoki wrote:
>
> I'm the wdm maintainer.
Thanks for nice and light application.
(The lack of locale choice is major negative for me though,... hint...)
> I use the alternatives system to figure out
> what window managers and session managers are available. IMO, if a
> window manager is useless on its own, then it should not provide an
> option for the x-window-manager alternative.
You are quite right. That is bad.
> This same basic issue came up in bug 194195, which is filed against wdm
> but I claim is a problem with xfce4. xfce4 provides an x-window-manger
> alternative, but doesn't actually work if you start it on its own; it
> needs some kind of session manager to work.
I do not know which way (alternative or freedesktop framework) is the
best but 2 things matters for the user:
* No false display. (well maintained)
* Use of consistent framework acress different but similar apps.
(This makes a bit more maintainable)
After all, except XDM, once you install (G|W|K)DM, these
x-window-manager or x-session-manager slternative seems to be less of an
importance these days.
I vaguely recall funny/missing choice entry of these window/session
manager may have existed for KDM/GDM too. This is a area we can improve
for post sarge.
Regards,
Osamu
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| Osamu Aoki 2004-09-26, 5:55 pm |
| On Sun, Sep 26, 2004 at 08:59:15AM +0200, Oliver Bausinger wrote:
> On Sunday, 26. September 2004 01:11, Osamu Aoki wrote:
>
> Hm?
Hm???
> bausi@lima:~$ cat /etc/kde3/kdm/kdmrc | grep Xsession
> Session=/etc/kde3/kdm/Xsession
>
> bausi@lima:~$ cat /etc/kde3/kdm/Xsession
> #! /bin/sh
> # Xsession - run as user
>
> # invoke global X session script
> . /etc/X11/Xsession
I do not see it. If it is, I am happy. I even checked it by putting
check script in /etc/X11/Xsessin.d/ directory and it was not run at all.
So I am sure you have different version. This is Sid (unstable) I as I
initially reported. (Is my mirror behind? Or are you behind?)
osamu@dambo:kdm$ grep Xsession Xsession
# Xsession - run as user
osamu@dambo:kdm$ dpkg -l kdm kdebase-bin
Desired=Unknown/Install/Remove/Purge/Hold
|
Status=Not/Installed/Config-files/Unpacked/Failed-config/Half-installed
|/ Err?=(none)/Hold/Reinst-required/X=both-problems (Status,Err:
uppercase=bad)
||/ Name Version Description
+++-==============-==============- ========================================
====
ii kdm 3.3.0-1 KDE Display Manager
ii kdebase-bin 3.3.0-1 KDE Base (binaries)
>
> It recalls the last session used. (see ~/.dmrc)
That is interesting point I overlooked.
But as of 3.3.0-1,
After getting environment from shell startup script
exec /usr/bin/startkde
seems to be what happens as I read script as is.
Osamu
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| Osamu Aoki 2004-09-26, 5:55 pm |
| On Sun, Sep 26, 2004 at 02:35:08AM -0500, Chris Cheney wrote:
> On Sun, Sep 26, 2004 at 01:11:32AM +0200, Osamu Aoki wrote:
> -snip-
>
> This was fixed with kdebase 3.3.0a-1 upload which be in sid after
> dinstall today. It had worked prior to the original KDE 3.3.0 upload but
> I accidentally dropped a patch which I have readded.
OK, then I am very happy. I will wait since it has not hit my mirror.
>
> 'custom' does nothing now, I should look into how to remove the option.
> 'default' mode runs ~/.Xsession as it should.
>
>
> 'default' now works properly since I fixed the Xsession file to use the
> Debian /etc/X11/Xsession file.
Sure. Anyway it was bad timing to test KDM.
Does KDM/KDE has special way to add some start up script. I am not just
talkinh xeyes but more serious keyboard related programs needed for special
CJK needs. Is there any consorted effort to have shared script between
different DM and different WM so I do not need to add them to all
desktop specific startup scripts.
I currently use home brew script in /etc/X11/Xsession.d/ which read
~/.i18n and source it. So far it worked with all (but buggy version of
KDM). I expect it to work next version of KDM.
----------------------------------
# /etc/X11/Xsession.d/80xfree86-common_i18n
# source ~/.i18n for internationalization of X
I18NRC=$HOME/.i18n
if grep -qs ^allow-i18n "$OPTIONFILE"; then
if [ -r "$I18NRC" ]; then
if [ -x "$I18NRC" ]; then
"$I18NRC"
else
. "$I18NRC"
fi
fi
fi
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| Daniel Burrows 2004-09-26, 5:55 pm |
| | |
| Oliver Bausinger 2004-09-26, 5:55 pm |
| On Sunday, 26. September 2004 16:56, Daniel Burrows wrote:
>
> You're probably running a 3.2 package (in sarge). 3.3 (in unstable)
> threw out support for /etc/X11/Xsession (by default); see the bug
> referenced above.
>
Yes. KDM supports /etc/X11/Xsession since ages. It was just a little bug in
KDE 3.3.0's packaging (and yes, this was tested on sarge). Sorry for being
unclear.
Greetings
Bausi
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