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Documentation of alioth?
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|
| Michael Bramer 2005-07-09, 5:50 pm |
| Hello
Maybe I miss something, but have we some Documentation about
alioth/gforge?
And is there some alioth mailinglist (or is debian-devel ok for more
alioth questions?)
Gruss
Grisu
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| |
| Marc Haber 2005-07-10, 5:51 pm |
| On Sat, 9 Jul 2005 16:01:59 +0200, Michael Bramer <grisu@debian.org>
wrote:
>Maybe I miss something, but have we some Documentation about
>alioth/gforge?
>
>And is there some alioth mailinglist (or is debian-devel ok for more
>alioth questions?)
Alioth is mainly unmaintained, don't rely on it.
Greetings
Marc
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Header
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| |
| Raphaël Hertzog 2005-07-11, 2:49 am |
| Le dimanche 10 juillet 2005 à 23:34 +0200, Marc Haber a écrit :
> On Sat, 9 Jul 2005 16:01:59 +0200, Michael Bramer <grisu@debian.org>
> wrote:
It depends on what you expect...
[vbcol=seagreen]
There's no mailing list. But admin@alioth.debian.org is the email to
contact the actual administrator. You can discuss wherever you want as
long as you sent a synthesis to the admins (or at least CC them).
[vbcol=seagreen]
> Alioth is mainly unmaintained, don't rely on it.
That's grossly unfair. Furthermore I have yet to see an offer to help or
a patch sent to the current administrators.
Requets for new projects are treated regularly by the 3 admins. Problems
requiring root rights can only be handled by Wichert Akkerman and are
thus treated less frequently. Sometimes you need to prod him directly
(on IRC).
Regards,
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| Marc Haber 2005-07-11, 2:49 am |
| On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 08:16:31 +0200, Rapha=EBl Hertzog
<hertzog@debian.org> wrote:
>Le dimanche 10 juillet 2005 =E0 23:34 +0200, Marc Haber a =E9crit :
>
>That's grossly unfair. Furthermore I have yet to see an offer to help or
>a patch sent to the current administrators.
Mailing list moderation is broken for like three months. There is an -
unreplied - tracker ticket (#301440) open, people have been prodded on
IRC multiple times, and all I got - after two weeks of trying to get
this issue at least acknowledged - was a "yeah, there is an
incompatbility between gforge and mailman".
Same goes for tracker ticket #301374 - open since three months, not a
bit of reply.
>Requets for new projects are treated regularly by the 3 admins. Problems
>requiring root rights can only be handled by Wichert Akkerman and are
>thus treated less frequently. Sometimes you need to prod him directly
>(on IRC).
I do not care too much about alioth's internal problems. Fact is that
important parts of alioth infrastructure are broken since multiple
months, users are ignored, and nobody seems to care. This makes _my_
work as a DD significantly harder since I have to look after my
mailing lists manually since a quarter of a year.
Greetings
Marc
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Marc Haber | " Questions are the | Mailadresse im =
Header
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Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fon: *49 621 =
72739834
| |
| Raphael Hertzog 2005-07-11, 5:53 pm |
| Le lundi 11 juillet 2005 à 09:17 +0200, Marc Haber a écrit :
> Mailing list moderation is broken for like three months. There is an -
> unreplied - tracker ticket (#301440) open, people have been prodded on
> IRC multiple times, and all I got - after two weeks of trying to get
> this issue at least acknowledged - was a "yeah, there is an
> incompatbility between gforge and mailman".
>
> Same goes for tracker ticket #301374 - open since three months, not a
> bit of reply.
I never said we were perfect. But alioth is not "unmaintained".
Gforge has its bugs, you're more than welcomon to work on it...
> I do not care too much about alioth's internal problems. Fact is that
> important parts of alioth infrastructure are broken since multiple
> months, users are ignored, and nobody seems to care. This makes _my_
> work as a DD significantly harder since I have to look after my
> mailing lists manually since a quarter of a year.
Did you try to check where the problem is ? Did you try to prepare a
patch for us to apply ?
Regards,
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| Eduard Bloch 2005-07-11, 5:54 pm |
| Xref: number1.nntp.dca.giganews.com linux.debian.devel:173933
#include <hallo.h>
* Raphael Hertzog [Mon, Jul 11 2005, 02:13:17PM]:
>
> Did you try to check where the problem is ? Did you try to prepare a
> patch for us to apply ?
It's not my beer, but... did you ask for one? Did you ask for help at
all (since there seem to be real problems, my last request for an
obvious feature has been some months in the queue before beeing
processed).
Regards,
Eduard.
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| Raphael Hertzog 2005-07-12, 7:56 am |
| Le lundi 11 juillet 2005 à 17:57 +0200, Eduard Bloch a écrit :
>
> It's not my beer, but... did you ask for one? Did you ask for help at
> all (since there seem to be real problems, my last request for an
> obvious feature has been some months in the queue before beeing
> processed).
No we didn't. But that's common when you are group of volunteers sharing
the work. The fact that I didn't had much time/interest is mostly
unrelated to the fact that the other admins were in the same
situation... so it takes time to just realize that there's a problem.
Alioth's problems are not dramatic, but the list of tickets is growing
and help would certainly be appreciated to sort them out.
https://alioth.debian.org/tracker/?...d=1&func=browse
A first step in that direction would be to have a public SVN with
alioth's gforge ... I'll try to pester Lo-Lan-Do (Roland Mas) in doing
that. :-)
Cheers,
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| Marc Haber 2005-07-12, 7:56 am |
| Xref: number1.nntp.dca.giganews.com linux.debian.devel:173996
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 14:13:17 +0200, Raphael Hertzog
<raphael@ouaza.com> wrote:
>Le lundi 11 juillet 2005 =E0 09:17 +0200, Marc Haber a =E9crit :
>
>I never said we were perfect. But alioth is not "unmaintained".
A project which leaves bug reports completely uncommented (and
unfixed) for three months is unmaintained.
>Gforge has its bugs, you're more than welcomon to work on it...
Why should I spend days building a reference system for bug
reproduction and bug removal when the actual buggy system is readily
available to its admins?
>
>Did you try to check where the problem is ? Did you try to prepare a
>patch for us to apply ?
Alioth is not some kind of software which can be debugged this way.
Greetings
Marc
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-------------------------------------- !! No courtesy copies, please !! =
-----
Marc Haber | " Questions are the | Mailadresse im =
Header
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http://www.zugschlus.de/
Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fon: *49 621 =
72739834
| |
| Florian Weimer 2005-07-12, 5:57 pm |
| * Marc Haber:
>
> A project which leaves bug reports completely uncommented (and
> unfixed) for three months is unmaintained.
Not necessarily. It's very poor communication, and a huge problem.
But without inside knowledge, you can't really know what's going on.
> Why should I spend days building a reference system for bug
> reproduction and bug removal when the actual buggy system is readily
> available to its admins?
Or, put in a more constructive way, what is the correct way to proceed
if you want to debug such bugs yourself, on Debian's machines?
Suppose I had an afternoon to spare on such a bug, how could I help
the alioth maintainers?
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| Raphael Hertzog 2005-07-19, 2:48 am |
| Le mardi 12 juillet 2005 à 16:32 +0200, Florian Weimer a écrit :
>
> Or, put in a more constructive way, what is the correct way to proceed
> if you want to debug such bugs yourself, on Debian's machines?
> Suppose I had an afternoon to spare on such a bug, how could I help
> the alioth maintainers?
I tried to put all the answers to your questions in that page:
http://wiki.debian.net/?Alioth
Now haydn is running sarge so it's relatively easy to duplicate alioth
on a local (virtual) machine (before the mixture of woody/sarge was
suboptimal). You have the sources and the packages running on alioth...
you can provide patches that apply to Alioth's version of gforge.
Apart from some logs, all the configuration files are readable on alioth
so you can investigate problems like everyone. (BTW, I'm mostly in the
same situation than everyone, I don't have root rights to read the
logs).
Cheers,
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| Florian Weimer 2005-07-28, 6:01 pm |
| * Raphael Hertzog:
> Now haydn is running sarge so it's relatively easy to duplicate alioth
> on a local (virtual) machine (before the mixture of woody/sarge was
> suboptimal). You have the sources and the packages running on alioth...
> you can provide patches that apply to Alioth's version of gforge.
This is ridiculous. With this attitude, you will never receive any
substantial help with alioth system administration. It's unlikely
that anyone who
For example, issue #301374 is caused by explicit configuration which
disables POST requests, in /srv/svn.debian.org/etc/apache.conf:
<Location />
<LimitExcept GET HEAD OPTIONS PROPFIND>
deny from all
</LimitExcept>
</Location>
It's unlikely that someone rebuilding alioth from scratch would make
the same mistake (and you can't really reuse all these configuration
files).
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| Raphaël Hertzog 2005-08-07, 7:48 am |
| Le jeudi 28 juillet 2005 à 09:31 +0200, Florian Weimer a écrit :
> This is ridiculous. With this attitude, you will never receive any
> substantial help with alioth system administration. It's unlikely
> that anyone who
Sorry, I can't offer something better... but as you see, you can help
alioth admins without having a local gforge since you diagnosed a
problem.
> For example, issue #301374 is caused by explicit configuration which
> disables POST requests, in /srv/svn.debian.org/etc/apache.conf:
>
> <Location />
> <LimitExcept GET HEAD OPTIONS PROPFIND>
> deny from all
> </LimitExcept>
> </Location>
Thank you for the explanation of the problem, but why didn't you add
this useful feedback to the request tracker ? At least that way all
alioth admins would know precisely the problem and could act
accordingly.
I added that, and asked wiggy to fix that (he has the right to edit the
good file). Hopefully it will be fixed soon...
Cheers,
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| |
| Florian Weimer 2005-08-07, 7:48 am |
| * Rapha=EBl Hertzog:
> Sorry, I can't offer something better... but as you see, you can help
> alioth admins without having a local gforge since you diagnosed a
> problem.
What's the benefit of diagnosing the problem if it isn't fixed?
> At least that way all alioth admins would know precisely the problem
> and could act accordingly.
Those with sufficient privilege obviously do not read the tracker.
Look, it took me maybe ten minutes to diagnose the problem. I'm not
familiar with the system configuration, so I spent most of the time
looking for the correct configuration file.
If anyone with the necessary privileges were actually interested in
maintaining alioth, they would follow the tracker and fix such
low-hanging fruits immediately.
| |
| Raphaël Hertzog 2005-08-07, 7:48 am |
| Le dimanche 07 août 2005 à 11:39 +0200, Florian Weimer a écrit :
> What's the benefit of diagnosing the problem if it isn't fixed?
It lets people with the required privileges fix the problem without
having to investigate it first.
> Those with sufficient privilege obviously do not read the tracker.
Sure we read it... and no we're not going through it each day. We
receive any "update" and if we see that the problem can be fixed in less
than 2 minutes we usually do it.
Of course, sometime we forget. Of course, sometime we're busy.
> Look, it took me maybe ten minutes to diagnose the problem. I'm not
> familiar with the system configuration, so I spent most of the time
> looking for the correct configuration file.
I'm not familiar with everything either... I have some admin privileges
but I've not setup Gforge since Roland did that part. I'm not a Gforge
package maintainer either... so my gforge knowledge is limited.
Concerning svn.debian.org and arch.debian.org, wiggy installed this
service first... so again I don't know everything.
> If anyone with the necessary privileges were actually interested in
> maintaining alioth, they would follow the tracker and fix such
> low-hanging fruits immediately.
If life was that easy... please stop whining and see the reality. Many
packages have easy to fix bugs that languishes ... it's the same with
alioth. We appreciate any help... bitching about us doesn't help but
nagging us about simple issues like « please take 2 minutes to fix this:
it's easy look you just have to "..." » is certainly appreciated.
Cheers,
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| |
| Florian Weimer 2005-08-26, 7:56 am |
| * Rapha=EBl Hertzog:
> Le dimanche 07 ao=FBt 2005 =E0 11:39 +0200, Florian Weimer a =E9crit :
>
> It lets people with the required privileges fix the problem without
> having to investigate it first.
For the record: The bug hasn't been fixed yet.
> If life was that easy... please stop whining and see the reality.
The reality is that alioth is unmaintained.
> Many packages have easy to fix bugs that languishes ...
Packages are NMUed if their breakage causes too much suffering.
> it's the same with alioth.
No, it's not. You are quite immune to pressure from your peer group
(or maybe you think your fellow developers aren't peers, I don't
know).
> We appreciate any help...
Oh, to cut the discussion short: Where can I apply for root access on
costa, so that I can fix the bug we are talking about?
| |
| Raphaël Hertzog 2005-08-26, 7:56 am |
| [ I keep the discussion because I want Wichert to read it ]
Le vendredi 26 août 2005 à 11:26 +0200, Florian Weimer a écrit :
>
> For the record: The bug hasn't been fixed yet.
>
>
> The reality is that alioth is unmaintained.
>
>
> Packages are NMUed if their breakage causes too much suffering.
>
>
> No, it's not. You are quite immune to pressure from your peer group
> (or maybe you think your fellow developers aren't peers, I don't
> know).
>
>
> Oh, to cut the discussion short: Where can I apply for root access on
> costa, so that I can fix the bug we are talking about?
Wichert is root and edits /etc/sudoers on his liking. Even if I
requested root rights several times, I only got rights to call the
script to create SVN repo.
I tried to do as much as possible on this issue, I've filed the required
information in the support tracker, I reassigned the request to Wichert,
increased the priorities and asked him to check his top-level support
requests. I pestered him on IRC twice or thrice without results. Sorry,
I can't do more.
I know Wichert is a bit disappointed because despite all the
money/sponsors we have, we're waiting for more than a year for a new
machine. The main problems appears to be DSA who must give an approval
that they're willing to admin the machine before we can decide to buy
it/accept the donation... and since DSA are always overwhelmed with more
urgent issues (new ftpmaster and so on), we're getting nowhere.
Of course, that's not a reason to not act on the problems you indicated,
but hey I want to give people a broader overview of what's happening.
Cheers,
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| |
| Martin Schulze 2005-08-26, 7:56 am |
| Raphaël Hertzog wrote:
> I know Wichert is a bit disappointed because despite all the
> money/sponsors we have, we're waiting for more than a year for a new
> machine. The main problems appears to be DSA who must give an approval
> that they're willing to admin the machine before we can decide to buy
> it/accept the donation... and since DSA are always overwhelmed with more
> urgent issues (new ftpmaster and so on), we're getting nowhere.
Hi Raphaël,
I'm sorry, but I have to tell you that you're wrong in your assertion.
All Alioth machines (currently haydn and costa) are not in the domain
of DSA but of Wichert alone. The only active part DSA is taking in
this is the export of Debian developer accounts to haydn.
Also DSA does not have anything to do with ftpmaster work. The
ftpmaster people organise themselves on their own.
Regards,
Joey
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| Raphaël Hertzog 2005-08-26, 7:56 am |
| Le vendredi 26 août 2005 à 12:04 +0200, Martin Schulze a écrit :
> Hi Raphaël,
Hi Joey,
> I'm sorry, but I have to tell you that you're wrong in your assertion.
I've been corrected by Wiggy on IRC too. Although what I said before was
not invented, I've read part of it in #debian-devel in the mouth of
Overfiend (Branden)...
It looks like the actual problem is more lack of donors and the fact
that Branden is not willing to spend money on it.
Maybe a brief status of the "hardware donations" people would be nice ?
> Also DSA does not have anything to do with ftpmaster work. The
> ftpmaster people organise themselves on their own.
Right, it's so easy to confuse with common people on the various
teams ... :-)
Cheers,
PS: Good news, I actually have root rights now, I'll take some time this
WE for treating the easy issues in the support request.
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| |
| Bastian Blank 2005-08-26, 7:56 am |
| On Fri, Aug 26, 2005 at 12:23:14PM +0200, Raphaël Hertzog wrote:
> Maybe a brief status of the "hardware donations" people would be nice ?
IBM loaned 2 OpenPower machines for Debian but noone wants them. Okay,
they have one problem, only 4x 73 GB disk space.
Bastian
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| |
| Florian Weimer 2005-08-26, 7:56 am |
| * Bastian Blank:
> On Fri, Aug 26, 2005 at 12:23:14PM +0200, Rapha=EBl Hertzog wrote:
>
> IBM loaned 2 OpenPower machines for Debian but noone wants them. Okay,
> they have one problem, only 4x 73 GB disk space.
Some developers have a few EUR on their bank accounts and could buy
hardware for the project, too.
But I fail to see how more machines make system administration easier.
I'd expect that additional machines put only more load on our various
administration teams, not less.
| |
| Raphaël Hertzog 2005-08-26, 7:56 am |
| Le vendredi 26 août 2005 à 11:26 +0200, Florian Weimer a écrit :
> * Raphaël Hertzog:
>
>
> For the record: The bug hasn't been fixed yet.
Fwiw, the bug is now fixed. I prodded Wichert once more and it got
resolved.
Cheers,
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| Raphael Hertzog 2005-08-26, 7:56 am |
| Le vendredi 26 août 2005 à 12:51 +0200, Florian Weimer a écrit :
> * Bastian Blank:
>
>
> Some developers have a few EUR on their bank accounts and could buy
> hardware for the project, too.
>
> But I fail to see how more machines make system administration easier.
> I'd expect that additional machines put only more load on our various
> administration teams, not less.
In our case we want to merge costa/haydn on a single machine. And that's
even more important since Gforge 4.5 has a subversion module.
It would be bad if we have SVN repo on two different machines... while
access to all repo is handled by the same way (alioth projects).
Cheers,
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| Bastian Blank 2005-08-26, 6:01 pm |
| On Fri, Aug 26, 2005 at 12:51:41PM +0200, Florian Weimer wrote:
> Some developers have a few EUR on their bank accounts and could buy
> hardware for the project, too.
We speak about server hardware.
> But I fail to see how more machines make system administration easier.
> I'd expect that additional machines put only more load on our various
> administration teams, not less.
Debian currently have 3 powerpc machines, one powerstack 2 and 2 dual
g4. They can easily replaced with on the openpower machines. So the
count drops from 3 to 2 if some backup is wanted.
Bastian
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| |
| Matt Taggart 2005-08-26, 6:01 pm |
|
=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Rapha=EBl?= Hertzog writes...
> I know Wichert is a bit disappointed because despite all the
> money/sponsors we have, we're waiting for more than a year for a new
> machine. The main problems appears to be DSA who must give an approval
> that they're willing to admin the machine before we can decide to buy
> it/accept the donation... and since DSA are always overwhelmed with more
> urgent issues (new ftpmaster and so on), we're getting nowhere.
Actually the problem is that HP promised hardware for alioth but before we
could order it a company spending freeze happened. I'm glad to report that it
looks like we're going to be able to order things again and it will get
ordered soon. This still means we're at least a month from having the hardware
arrive, assembled, installed, shipped to a hosting sponsor, and ready to
transition. Then the transition will take some time too...
Sorry for the delay, thanks for you patience.
--
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taggart@debian.org aka taggart@fc.hp.com
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| Florian Weimer 2005-08-27, 7:56 am |
| * Raphael Hertzog:
>
> In our case we want to merge costa/haydn on a single machine. And that's
> even more important since Gforge 4.5 has a subversion module.
Ah, good, and please arrange for DSA co-maintenance.
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| Branden Robinson / Debian Project Leader 2005-08-29, 6:01 pm |
| [Gack, what a nasty CC line. Is all that really necessary?]
On Fri, Aug 26, 2005 at 12:23:14PM +0200, Raphaël Hertzog wrote:
> Le vendredi 26 août 2005 à 12:04 +0200, Martin Schulze a écrit :
>
> Hi Joey,
>
>
> I've been corrected by Wiggy on IRC too. Although what I said before was
> not invented, I've read part of it in #debian-devel in the mouth of
> Overfiend (Branden)...
Eh? What exactly did I say?
> It looks like the actual problem is more lack of donors and the fact
> that Branden is not willing to spend money on it.
Actually, I was contacted just very recently by a potential hardware donor
that should have some pretty reasonable iron at its disposal.
I don't rule out cash expenditures on hardware in general, but when we're
seeking entire machines, I'd rather exhaust donation opportunties first.
As far as I can tell, they haven't yet been exhausted. When we just need
parts, the main thing I need is a proposal that enumerates what is to be
purchased and includes a cost breakdown (or at least a bottom-line figure
including taxes and shipping costs).
I don't categorically rule anything out in the case of an emergency. It's
been my impression that the situation with alioth is uncomfortable as
opposed to emergent.
> Maybe a brief status of the "hardware donations" people would be nice ?
Yes, I'd love to see such a report myself. 
[vbcol=seagreen]
Well, in theory, when a task crosses a lane of responsibility from
ftpmaster to DSA and back, these people do actually communicate with each
other.
(I *did* say "in theory"...)
--
G. Branden Robinson
Debian Project Leader
leader@debian.org
http://people.debian.org/~branden/
| |
| Raphaël Hertzog 2005-08-29, 6:01 pm |
| Le lundi 29 août 2005 à 11:42 -0500, Branden Robinson / Debian Project
Leader a écrit :
>
> Eh? What exactly did I say?
<Overfiend> wiggy: if anyone from d-a is responding to any of the offers
they're getting, they're not CCing me.
<Overfiend> And we all know how much good it will do if I cheerfully
accept hardware that d-a refuses to touch.
>
> Actually, I was contacted just very recently by a potential hardware donor
> that should have some pretty reasonable iron at its disposal.
>
> I don't rule out cash expenditures on hardware in general, but when we're
> seeking entire machines, I'd rather exhaust donation opportunties first.
I have no problem with that but we should also avoid waiting for ever
when the donor doesn't come.
I hope the issue will be solved until the end of the year. :-)
Cheers,
--
Raphaël Hertzog
Premier livre français sur Debian GNU/Linux :
http://www.ouaza.com/livre/admin-debian/
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| |
| Branden Robinson / Debian Project Leader 2005-08-30, 6:01 pm |
| On Mon, Aug 29, 2005 at 06:56:56PM +0200, Raphaël Hertzog wrote:
> Le lundi 29 août 2005 à 11:42 -0500, Branden Robinson / Debian Project
> Leader a écrit :
>
> <Overfiend> wiggy: if anyone from d-a is responding to any of the offers
> they're getting, they're not CCing me.
> <Overfiend> And we all know how much good it will do if I cheerfully
> accept hardware that d-a refuses to touch.
Oh, that.
>
> I have no problem with that but we should also avoid waiting for ever
> when the donor doesn't come.
>
> I hope the issue will be solved until the end of the year. :-)
It's not my intention to wait *that* long. I know of several outstanding
offers of hardware. Not all may be a perfect fit, but I'd be surprised if
all of them were unsatisfactory.
--
G. Branden Robinson
Debian Project Leader
leader@debian.org
http://people.debian.org/~branden/
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