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Size matters. Debian binary package stats
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| Gürkan Sengün 2005-12-18, 7:49 am |
| Hi
I've run some scripts to find out the size of binary pakcages in debian
and how theycould be made smaller, here's the results:
http://www.linuks.mine.nu/sizematters/
Comments are welcome...
Yours,
G=FCrkan
| |
| Andreas Metzler 2005-12-18, 7:49 am |
| Gürkan Sengün <gurkan@linuks.mine.nu> wrote:
> I've run some scripts to find out the size of binary pakcages in debian
> and how theycould be made smaller, here's the results:
> http://www.linuks.mine.nu/sizematters/
Afaict from the webpage 7zip (LZMA) is quite a bit slower bzip2. -
Have you perhaps run some benchmarks?
cu andreas
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| Martijn van Oosterhout 2005-12-18, 7:49 am |
| 2005/12/18, Andreas Metzler <ametzler@downhill.at.eu.org>:
> G=FCrkan Seng=FCn <gurkan@linuks.mine.nu> wrote:
>
>
> Afaict from the webpage 7zip (LZMA) is quite a bit slower bzip2. -
> Have you perhaps run some benchmarks?
That page has compression and decompression speeds, putting 7zip at
about 40% slower than bzip2 and 90% slower than gzip. The
decompression speed of 7zip is better than bzip2 but still nothing to
write home about.
Anyone know a good heuristic for measuring bang for buck for
compression algorithms?
Have a nice day,
Martijn
| |
| Roberto Sanchez 2005-12-18, 5:59 pm |
| Steinar H. Gunderson wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 18, 2005 at 12:34:56PM +0100, Gürkan Sengün wrote:
>
>
>
> My comments are about the same as on IRC:
>
> - Disk space is cheap, bandwidth is cheap.
In many parts of the world. Nos so much in others.
> - CPU doesn't grow nearly as fast as those three.
???
In 1995 I had a Pentium 166 and a 56 kbps modem. Now, today the fastest
CPU you can get from Intel is 3.6 GHz. However, the fastest dial modem
you can get today is still 56k (remember that the majority of people
worldwide are still on dial up). That means that for a 2200% increase
in the maximum speed of a consumer-grade processor, there has a been 0%
increase in the maximum speed of a dial up modem. A similar phenomenon
has occurred for disk space.
> - Human power grows even slower.
OK.
> - The administrative overhead of transitioning to a new .deb format
> would be huge.
This is quite true.
>
> Thus, anything sacrificing lots of human power and CPU power to save on disk
> or bandwidth just doesn't make sense.
That really depends. I routinely see posts on debian-user asking about
how to use a friend's fast DSL or cable connection to download packages
to install on a Debian box that has only dial up access to the Internet.
I think that the biggest problem is really updates. Packages like
XFree86 (no X.org) and Openoffice.org are *huge*. A simple security
update to one of those packages causes all subordinate binary packages
to get a version bump. That means that if there was a bug in the
XFree86 driver for video card foo and I use video card bar, I still get
download a many dozens of MB update. IIRC, something similar caused a
major strain on security.debian.org shortly after the Sarge release.
If we focus our energy on anything to reduce bandwidth, it should be
making apt/dpkg smart enough to only need to grab the single changed
binary package out of the 50 produced by source package foo, or maybe to
employ and rsync-like approach.
-Roberto
--
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http://familiasanchez.net/~roberto
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| Olaf van der Spek 2005-12-18, 5:59 pm |
| T24gMTIvMTgvMDUsIFN0ZWluYXIgSC4gR3VuZGVy
c29uIDxzZ3VuZGVyc29uQGJpZ2Zvb3QuY29t
PiB3cm90ZToKPiBPbiBTdW4sIERlYyAxOCwgMjAw
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Cj4gIC0gRGlzayBzcGFjZSBpcyBjaGVhcCwg
YmFuZHdpZHRoIGlzIGNoZWFwLgo+ICAtIENQVSBk
b2Vzbid0IGdyb3cgbmVhcmx5IGFzIGZhc3Qg
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ZXIgZ3Jvd3MgZXZlbiBzbG93ZXIuCj4gIC0g
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V2h5IHdvdWxkIHRoaXMgYmUgaHVnZT8KV2h5
IGlzIGl0IHRoYXQgaGFyZCB0byBwbHVnaW4gYW5v
dGhlciBjb2RlYz8K
| |
| Steinar H. Gunderson 2005-12-18, 5:59 pm |
| On Sun, Dec 18, 2005 at 08:41:03AM -0500, Roberto Sanchez wrote:
> In 1995 I had a Pentium 166 and a 56 kbps modem. Now, today the fastest
> CPU you can get from Intel is 3.6 GHz. However, the fastest dial modem
> you can get today is still 56k (remember that the majority of people
> worldwide are still on dial up). That means that for a 2200% increase
> in the maximum speed of a consumer-grade processor, there has a been 0%
> increase in the maximum speed of a dial up modem. A similar phenomenon
> has occurred for disk space.
So? We're talking “bandwidthâ€, not “dial-up modem bandwidth†-- thankfully,
the world is progressing, and we're moving away from dial-up at lightning
speeds. :-) In 1995 I had a 28.800 modem -- today, I have 6Mbit at about the
same price (probably a bit lower). That's a 21300% increase to match your
2200% increase :-)
Not to mention that a DVD-R can fit about three million times as much data as
a floppy disk, which was the dominant way of distributing software at the
time. We can continue keep playing these number games, but I don't really see
the point :-)
> If we focus our energy on anything to reduce bandwidth, it should be
> making apt/dpkg smart enough to only need to grab the single changed
> binary package out of the 50 produced by source package foo, or maybe to
> employ and rsync-like approach.
Splitting packages makes sense for this sort of thing, and X did just that.
/* Steinar */
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| |
| Steinar H. Gunderson 2005-12-18, 5:59 pm |
| On Sun, Dec 18, 2005 at 02:56:10PM +0100, Olaf van der Spek wrote:
> Why would this be huge?
> Why is it that hard to plugin another codec?
You'd have to rewrite about every single tool in the world handling .debs,
make up a transition plan and upgrade from that. Not to mention that you'd
have to make sure it works on all kinds of obscure platforms actually using
the thing. (And yes, I have used ar and tar to extract debs, and consider it
a quite useful feature.)
The .deb format is _fixed_ -- this isn't AVI where you just “plug in another
codec†and hope it works.
/* Steinar */
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| |
| Mohammed Adnène Trojette 2005-12-18, 5:59 pm |
| On Sun, Dec 18, 2005, Andreas Metzler wrote:
> Have you perhaps run some benchmarks?
Thanks to Kingsley Morse Jr.: http://adn.diwi.org/debian/p7zip/7za.jpg
Even more precise at http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/8051
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adn
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| Ron Johnson 2005-12-18, 5:59 pm |
| On Sun, 2005-12-18 at 12:59 +0100, Steinar H. Gunderson wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 18, 2005 at 12:34:56PM +0100, G=FCrkan Seng=FCn wrote:
>=20
> My comments are about the same as on IRC:
>=20
> - Disk space is cheap, bandwidth is cheap.
Spoken like someone who's never had to pay for a server room.
--=20
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson, LA USA
"Man, I'm pretty. Hoo Hah!"
Johnny Bravo
| |
| Ron Johnson 2005-12-18, 5:59 pm |
| On Sun, 2005-12-18 at 15:02 +0100, Steinar H. Gunderson wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 18, 2005 at 08:41:03AM -0500, Roberto Sanchez wrote:
t=20[vbcol=seagreen]
=20[vbcol=seagreen]
=20[vbcol=seagreen]
=20[vbcol=seagreen]
>=20
> So? We're talking =B4bandwidth=A1, not =B4dial-up modem bandwidth=A1 -- t=
hankfully,
> the world is progressing, and we're moving away from dial-up at lightning
> speeds. :-) In 1995 I had a 28.800 modem -- today, I have 6Mbit at about =
the
> same price (probably a bit lower). That's a 21300% increase to match your
> 2200% increase :-)
But there are still many people stuck on dial-up, because of where
they live.
--=20
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson, LA USA
"You're a good example of why some animals eat their young."
Jim Samuels
| |
| Florian Weimer 2005-12-18, 6:00 pm |
| * Steinar H. Gunderson:
> My comments are about the same as on IRC:
>
> - Disk space is cheap, bandwidth is cheap.
Depends. Decent IP service costs a few EUR per gigabyte in most parts
of the world.
> Thus, anything sacrificing lots of human power and CPU power to save on disk
> or bandwidth just doesn't make sense.
My main concern is that changing the compression algorithm alone
optimizes for the wrong case (initial install), which you can do from
CD anyway if you are bandwidth-starved. Delta compression for .debs
would be far more interesting, I guess, but I have no idea how to
implement them in a sane way. 8-/
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| Raphael Hertzog 2005-12-18, 6:00 pm |
| On Sun, Dec 18, 2005 at 12:34:56PM +0100, Gürkan Sengün wrote:
> Hi
>
> I've run some scripts to find out the size of binary pakcages in debian
> and how theycould be made smaller, here's the results:
>
> http://www.linuks.mine.nu/sizematters/
FWIW :
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Dpkg7Zip
Actual maintainer of dpkg is evaluating the possibility to use 7zip.
Even if the decision of using 7zip by default is far from being taken, it looks
likely that dpkg will at least start supporting it.
Cheers,
--
Raphaël Hertzog -+- http://www.ouaza.com
Freexian : des développeurs Debian au service des entreprises
http://www.freexian.com
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| |
| Florian Weimer 2005-12-18, 6:00 pm |
| * Andreas Metzler:
> Afaict from the webpage 7zip (LZMA) is quite a bit slower bzip2. -
> Have you perhaps run some benchmarks?
Memory use during decompression would be interesting, too.
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| Mikhail Sobolev 2005-12-18, 6:00 pm |
| On Sun, Dec 18, 2005 at 08:23:56PM +0100, Olaf van der Spek wrote:
> On 12/18/05, Steinar H. Gunderson <sgunderson@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
> Why is the knowledge of how to decode a .deb distributed over so many tools?
Probably, it's because there's no [C] library that would allow those
tools to deal with .deb files. Hence everybody start writing the tool
by creating one more parser for the .deb format.
--
Misha
| |
| Luca Brivio 2005-12-18, 6:00 pm |
| On Sun, 18 Dec 2005 15:02:55 +0100
"Steinar H. Gunderson" <sgunderson@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> Not to mention that a DVD-R can fit about three million times as much
> data as a floppy disk, which was the dominant way of distributing
> software at the time. We can continue keep playing these number
> games, but I don't really see the point :-)
Anyway, ~ 3 000 times, not ~ 3 000 000 times, sadly!
--
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| Steinar H. Gunderson 2005-12-18, 6:00 pm |
| On Sun, Dec 18, 2005 at 09:08:21PM +0100, Luca Brivio wrote:
> Anyway, ~ 3 000 times, not ~ 3 000 000 times, sadly!
Oops. Oh well, good thing the error consisted of zeros only ;-)
/* Steinar */
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| Steinar H. Gunderson 2005-12-18, 6:00 pm |
| On Sun, Dec 18, 2005 at 08:23:56PM +0100, Olaf van der Spek wrote:
> Why would that stop working if you switch compression schemes?
> I guess tar is coded to use gzip with -z and bzip2 with -j, but why is
> there no generic way to add coders/decoders (codecs) to tar (and other
> applications that wish to use compression filters)?
Get real. gzip is probably understood by 99.9% of all installed UNIX systems
in the world, and you cannot possibly hope to get anywhere near that for a
relatively obscure alternative. (The -j flag to tar is a Debian specific
extension, BTW -- I'm not sure if the -z flag is a GNU-specific extension,
but it wouldn't surprise me.)
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| Russ Allbery 2005-12-18, 6:00 pm |
| Steinar H Gunderson <sgunderson@bigfoot.com> writes:
> On Sun, Dec 18, 2005 at 08:23:56PM +0100, Olaf van der Spek wrote:
Well, tar supports --use-compress-program.
[...]
[vbcol=seagreen]
> (The -j flag to tar is a Debian specific extension, BTW
No, the Debian extension was -I (and even that was present for a while in
upstream). It was changed to -j because that's what upstream did. The -j
flag is present upstream as of 1.13.18.
--
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| Steinar H. Gunderson 2005-12-18, 6:00 pm |
| On Sun, Dec 18, 2005 at 10:15:31PM +0100, Olaf van der Spek wrote:
> I guess what I'm asking is, why are tar and other applications using
> gzip instead of a generic library that handles all
> compression/decompression and can be easily extended.
General complexity, I'd guess. If you want “easily extendedâ€, you'll have to
cope with dynamic, shared libraries -- look to NSS for a case on how evil
that can get. (And tar is really something you'd like to stay small and
simple.) Also, having to hunt down the right plug-in module for whatever
format somebody had the bright idea to use at some point can be a real pain.
(Ever had to use one of those “codec packs†for Micosoft Windows?)
Besides, UNIX does this a different way, traditionally -- via separate
programs. “gzip -d file.tar.gz ; tar xf file.tar†gives you most of the same
functionality, with zero extra complexity. (Try --use-compress-program in GNU
tar, but that probably doesn't exist in anything else.)
/* Steinar */
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| |
| Andrew Suffield 2005-12-19, 2:50 am |
| On Sun, Dec 18, 2005 at 08:27:36PM +0100, Florian Weimer wrote:
> * Steinar H. Gunderson:
>
>
> Depends. Decent IP service costs a few EUR per gigabyte in most parts
> of the world.
I wish we could get it that cheap for my day job. What we have to pay
to get useful bandwidth has more zeros in it.
--
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: :' : http://www.debian.org/ |
`. `' |
`- -><- |
| |
| Olaf van der Spek 2005-12-19, 7:50 am |
| T24gMTIvMTkvMDUsIEFuZHJldyBTdWZmaWVsZCA8
YXN1ZmZpZWxkQGRlYmlhbi5vcmc+IHdyb3Rl
Ogo+IE9uIFN1biwgRGVjIDE4LCAyMDA1IGF0IDA4
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bWVyIHdyb3RlOgo+ID4gKiBTdGVpbmFyIEguIEd1
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eW91IHBheWluZyA+IDEwICQvZ2I/CldoZXJl
IGlzIGl0IHRoYXQgZXhwZW5zaXZlPwo=
| |
| Goswin von Brederlow 2005-12-21, 5:58 pm |
| "Steinar H. Gunderson" <sgunderson@bigfoot.com> writes:
> On Sun, Dec 18, 2005 at 12:34:56PM +0100, Gürkan Sengün wrote:
>
> My comments are about the same as on IRC:
>
> - Disk space is cheap, bandwidth is cheap.
Spare disk space isn't available to add amd64 to mirrors.
Spare bandwith isn't available to add amd64 to mirrors.
Users disk space might be cheap but they have the unpacked binaries
anyway.
Users bandwith might be cheap but often very limited due to
infrastructure. A lot of analog modems are still out there.
> - CPU doesn't grow nearly as fast as those three.
Any arch where cpu speed still grows has plenty of cpu time to spare
anyway. Only old archs (and the embedded stuff) have cpu problems. But
do they want a 200MB OpenOffice?
> - Human power grows even slower.
> - The administrative overhead of transitioning to a new .deb format
> would be huge.
Where do you get this from? Where is this relevant?
The overhead to change to a new deb format is small. A very few
packages have to change (dpkg, apt, DAK, mini-dinstall). A few man
hours of work and compared with the amount of changes in debian every
day that is miniscule.
The transition itself would go completly unadministered. Once dpkg is
switched to default to a different compression all freshly build
packages use it and the archive transitions itself over time.
All the transition needs, after the initial infrastructure change, is
a lot of time. At least one stable release to get stable dpkg to cope
with differently compressed unstable packages and then time for every
package to get a new upload.
> Thus, anything sacrificing lots of human power and CPU power to save on disk
> or bandwidth just doesn't make sense.
Don't forget CD/DVD space. With better compression you could probably
fit Sarge i386 on a dual layer dvd again.
The businesscard and netboot images would also shrink alowing some
more debs on them, e.g. a graphical installer.
MfG
Goswin
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| |
| Goswin von Brederlow 2005-12-21, 5:58 pm |
| Olaf van der Spek <olafvdspek@gmail.com> writes:
> On 12/18/05, Steinar H. Gunderson <sgunderson@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
> Why is the knowledge of how to decode a .deb distributed over so many tools?
>
>
> Why would that stop working if you switch compression schemes?
> I guess tar is coded to use gzip with -z and bzip2 with -j, but why is
> there no generic way to add coders/decoders (codecs) to tar (and other
> applications that wish to use compression filters)?
uncompressor <file.tar.whatever | tar -x
[vbcol=seagreen]
MfG
Goswin
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| |
| Olaf van der Spek 2005-12-21, 5:58 pm |
| T24gMTIvMjEvMDUsIEdvc3dpbiB2b24gQnJlZGVy
bG93IDxicmVkZXJsb0BpbmZvcm1hdGlrLnVu
aS10dWViaW5nZW4uZGU+IHdyb3RlOgo+IHVuY29t
cHJlc3NvciA8ZmlsZS50YXIud2hhdGV2ZXIg
fCB0YXIgLXgKCiQgdW5jb21wcmVzc29yCi1iYXNo
OiB1bmNvbXByZXNzb3I6IGNvbW1hbmQgbm90
IGZvdW5kCgpUaGlzIHNvbHV0aW9uIGRvZXNuJ3Qg
bG9vayB1c2FibGUgaW4gc2NyaXB0cyBhbmQg
dXNlciBoYXZlIHRvIHVzZSBhCm1vcmUgY29tcGxl
eCBzeW50YXguCg==
| |
| Goswin von Brederlow 2005-12-21, 5:58 pm |
| Raphael Hertzog <hertzog@debian.org> writes:
> On Sun, Dec 18, 2005 at 12:34:56PM +0100, Gürkan Sengün wrote:
>
> FWIW :
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Dpkg7Zip
>
> Actual maintainer of dpkg is evaluating the possibility to use 7zip.
> Even if the decision of using 7zip by default is far from being taken, it looks
> likely that dpkg will at least start supporting it.
>
> Cheers,
It can't be the default unless stable dpkg has support for installing
such debs. That means not before etch+1 or more likely etch+2.
MfG
Goswin
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| Goswin von Brederlow 2005-12-21, 5:58 pm |
| Olaf van der Spek <olafvdspek@gmail.com> writes:
> On 12/21/05, Goswin von Brederlow <brederlo@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> wrote:
>
> $ uncompressor
> -bash: uncompressor: command not found
>
> This solution doesn't look usable in scripts and user have to use a
> more complex syntax.
You have to replace uncompressor with whatever tool is the right to
uncompress the format. Just like you have to use -z or -j depending on
gzip or bzip2 compression.
For a generic uncompressor the mailcap programs are probably best
suited for adopting it. E.g. add an action "dump" to run-mailcap that
outputs the uncompressed data.
MfG
Goswin
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| Ron Johnson 2005-12-21, 5:58 pm |
| On Wed, 2005-12-21 at 16:12 +0100, Goswin von Brederlow wrote:
> "Steinar H. Gunderson" <sgunderson@bigfoot.com> writes:
>=20
:
[snip][vbcol=seagreen]
> The transition itself would go completly unadministered. Once dpkg is
> switched to default to a different compression all freshly build
> packages use it and the archive transitions itself over time.
Because a .deb would "know" whether it is compressed or not, and
dpkg would dynamically determine whether it needed to decompress
or not?
--=20
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson, LA USA
"A man can't be too careful in the choice of his enemies."
Oscar Wilde
| |
| Andrew Suffield 2005-12-21, 5:58 pm |
| On Mon, Dec 19, 2005 at 09:56:27AM +0100, Olaf van der Spek wrote:
> On 12/19/05, Andrew Suffield <asuffield@debian.org> wrote:
>
> Are you paying > 10 $/gb?
Heck yes, you can't get it that cheap unless you have no SLA (or one
of those insulting SLAs that come with residential service, claiming
that it doesn't have to work at all). And you can't get that at all on
a pipe of any significant size (unless you're big enough to work out a
peering agreement). We pay per month though, not per byte.
> Where is it that expensive?
UK.
As a general rule, UK bandwidth prices are roughly five to ten times
those of equivalent service in other EU countries. Not that you can
get equivalent service.
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`. `' |
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| |
| Michelle Konzack 2005-12-22, 5:59 pm |
| Am 2005-12-19 09:56:27, schrieb Olaf van der Spek:
>=20
> Are you paying > 10 $/gb?
> Where is it that expensive?
I pay 450.000 DHs (around 57.000 US$) in Morocco
for an E3 (34 MBit) with traffic included.
An Internet Access 128/64 KBit is arRound 24 US$
and 1024/128 KBIT 90 US$. SO THINK TWICE!
Greetings
Michelle
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| |
| Michelle Konzack 2005-12-22, 5:59 pm |
| Hi Andrew,
Am 2005-12-19 03:02:06, schrieb Andrew Suffield:
> I wish we could get it that cheap for my day job. What we have to pay
> to get useful bandwidth has more zeros in it.
I feel with you, because I have an E3 in Morocco and must pay
450.000 DHs wich are around around 43.000 Euro per month.
Currently I have a Proxim Tsunami MP.11a OutDoor-Router and
two Lucent Stinger IP DSLAM with each 24 Ports plus a Debian
"portslave" with 2 Cyclades PC400-Modem (each 60 Ports)
Greetings
Michelle
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| Michelle Konzack 2005-12-22, 5:59 pm |
| Am 2005-12-18 12:36:05, schrieb Ron Johnson:
> On Sun, 2005-12-18 at 12:59 +0100, Steinar H. Gunderson wrote:
>
> Spoken like someone who's never had to pay for a server room.
ACK.
My Internet Connection in Paris/France and Offenburg/Germany
went
France Germany
E1 (colo) 2.460 480 Euro/month
E3 (colo) 17.600 2100 Euro/month
incl. traffic 8 Euro/GByte
STM-1 (FO) 32.000 42.000 Euro/month
incl. traffic incl. traffic
using my own cisco 7xxx
Curently I have in France a singel E3 with E1 Backup
and in Germany a Dual E1.
Betweex X-mas and new year, I will instal my third Server
in Swiss and the price is between Germany and France.
I have already read in debian-isp, that in the USA ate STM-4
(622 MBit, FiberOptic) are availlable for 120.000 US$/month.
Oops!!!
Oh yes, a E1 in Morocco cost around 7000 Euro, an E3 43.00 Euro
and a STM-1 is around 130.000 Euro. All prices per Month !!!
Greetings
Michelle
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| Florian Weimer 2005-12-22, 5:59 pm |
| * Michelle Konzack:
> Am 2005-12-19 09:56:27, schrieb Olaf van der Spek:
>
>
> I pay 450.000 DHs (around 57.000 US$) in Morocco
> for an E3 (34 MBit) with traffic included.
With traffic included? How's that more than 10$ per gigabyte
transferred and month? 8-)
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| Olaf van der Spek 2005-12-22, 5:59 pm |
| T24gMTIvMjEvMDUsIEFuZHJldyBTdWZmaWVsZCA8
YXN1ZmZpZWxkQGRlYmlhbi5vcmc+IHdyb3Rl
Ogo+ID4gQXJlIHlvdSBwYXlpbmcgPiAxMCAkL2di
Pwo+Cj4gSGVjayB5ZXMsIHlvdSBjYW4ndCBn
ZXQgaXQgdGhhdCBjaGVhcCB1bmxlc3MgeW91IGhh
dmUgbm8gU0xBIChvciBvbmUKPiBvZiB0aG9z
ZSBpbnN1bHRpbmcgU0xBcyB0aGF0IGNvbWUgd2l0
aCByZXNpZGVudGlhbCBzZXJ2aWNlLCBjbGFp
bWluZwo+IHRoYXQgaXQgZG9lc24ndCBoYXZlIHRv
IHdvcmsgYXQgYWxsKS4gQW5kIHlvdSBjYW4n
dCBnZXQgdGhhdCBhdCBhbGwgb24KPiBhIHBpcGUg
b2YgYW55IHNpZ25pZmljYW50IHNpemUgKHVu
bGVzcyB5b3UncmUgYmlnIGVub3VnaCB0byB3b3Jr
IG91dCBhCj4gcGVlcmluZyBhZ3JlZW1lbnQp
LiBXZSBwYXkgcGVyIG1vbnRoIHRob3VnaCwgbm90
IHBlciBieXRlLgoKVGhhdCdzIHVubGltaXRl
ZCB0cmFmZmljIHRoZW4gSSBhc3N1bWU/ CkF0IDEgbWJ5dGUvcyAoYXZlcmFnZSkgeW91J2Qg
YmUg
cGF5aW5nID4gMjUwMDAgJC9tb250aC4KCkJ1dCBk
byB5b3UgYWN0dWFsbHkgbmVlZCB2ZXJ5IGhp
Z2ggdXB0aW1lIGZvciB2ZXJ5IGxhcmdlIHRyYW5z
ZmVycz8K
| |
| Eduard Bloch 2005-12-22, 5:59 pm |
| #include <hallo.h>
* Goswin von Brederlow [Wed, Dec 21 2005, 05:03:41PM]:
>
> You have to replace uncompressor with whatever tool is the right to
> uncompress the format. Just like you have to use -z or -j depending on
> gzip or bzip2 compression.
"ucat" from the unp package. However, for this purpose it is rather a
cludge and IIRC it does not work with STDIN well.
Eduard.
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| Eduard Bloch 2005-12-22, 5:59 pm |
| #include <hallo.h>
* Goswin von Brederlow [Wed, Dec 21 2005, 04:19:56PM]:
>
> It can't be the default unless stable dpkg has support for installing
> such debs. That means not before etch+1 or more likely etch+2.
Why not? Use Pre-Depends. Sounds evil but is more reliable than just
hoping that all users always upgrade to the latest stable.
Of course dpkg and all of its dependencies must not be compressed with
7zip.
Eduard.
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| Goswin von Brederlow 2005-12-23, 8:49 pm |
| Ron Johnson <ron.l.johnson@cox.net> writes:
> On Wed, 2005-12-21 at 16:12 +0100, Goswin von Brederlow wrote:
> [snip]
>
> Because a .deb would "know" whether it is compressed or not, and
> dpkg would dynamically determine whether it needed to decompress
> or not?
One would use the filename (e.g. data.tar.bz2) or a more elaborate
system (add another file to the ar archive stating the compression) or
something. The decompression must automaticaly pick whatever is right
for a specific deb or the implementation would be inherently flawed.
Only building a deb needs to be told or change the default what to use.
MfG
Goswin
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| Goswin von Brederlow 2005-12-23, 8:49 pm |
| Eduard Bloch <edi@gmx.de> writes:
> #include <hallo.h>
> * Goswin von Brederlow [Wed, Dec 21 2005, 04:19:56PM]:
>
>
> Why not? Use Pre-Depends. Sounds evil but is more reliable than just
> hoping that all users always upgrade to the latest stable.
A Pre-Depends would work for non crucial stuff but would indeed be
evil. Users should at least be able to update libc6, dpkg, apt,
aptitude, whatever apt frontend so that has to be kept as gzip.
It would require some buildd hacking to get it to use gzip only for
those few debs so more human power.
> Of course dpkg and all of its dependencies must not be compressed with
> 7zip.
There might also some depends/conflicts cases that could require
updating or removing additional debs normaly unrelated to dpkg. Those
usualy creap up on one unexpected which makes Pre-Depends on dpkg
risky.
> Eduard.
MfG
Goswin
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| Anthony DeRobertis 2005-12-23, 8:49 pm |
| Andrew Suffield wrote:
> As a general rule, UK bandwidth prices are roughly five to ten times
> those of equivalent service in other EU countries. Not that you can
> get equivalent service.
Ouch. I pay less than that for a T1 to my house, and far far far less
for bandwidth at a colo. I suggest that you consider either emigrating
or rioting in the streets.
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| Adam Heath 2005-12-24, 8:49 pm |
| On Sat, 24 Dec 2005, Goswin von Brederlow wrote:
> It would require some buildd hacking to get it to use gzip only for
> those few debs so more human power.
debs are created by debian/rules. So, only dependencies of dpkg would have to
be modified.
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| Goswin von Brederlow 2005-12-25, 5:50 pm |
| Adam Heath <doogie@debian.org> writes:
> On Sat, 24 Dec 2005, Goswin von Brederlow wrote:
>
>
> debs are created by debian/rules. So, only dependencies of dpkg would have to
> be modified.
I was talking about the hypothetical situation of dpkg defaulting to
!gzip compression and adding a Pre-Depends to the dpkg version
required for unpacking. The buildd would have to override that for
core packages.
MfG
Goswin
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| Adam Heath 2005-12-25, 5:50 pm |
| On Sun, 25 Dec 2005, Goswin von Brederlow wrote:
>
> I was talking about the hypothetical situation of dpkg defaulting to
> !gzip compression and adding a Pre-Depends to the dpkg version
> required for unpacking. The buildd would have to override that for
> core packages.
No, the packages themselves would include such logic in their debian/rules.
There's no way we'd want to keep buildds in sync with what the set of core
packages is.
And, besides, libc6.deb is core, but is libc6-dev? Or it's documentation?
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| Goswin von Brederlow 2005-12-26, 8:50 pm |
| Adam Heath <doogie@debian.org> writes:
> On Sun, 25 Dec 2005, Goswin von Brederlow wrote:
>
>
> No, the packages themselves would include such logic in their debian/rules.
> There's no way we'd want to keep buildds in sync with what the set of core
> packages is.
That would realy defeat the purpose of not having to modify every deb.
> And, besides, libc6.deb is core, but is libc6-dev? Or it's documentation?
Definetly as nearly everyone has it installed and it has a strict
versioned depend (not the docs). And that one is the easiest to spot.
MfG
Goswin
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| Adam Heath 2005-12-26, 8:50 pm |
| On Tue, 27 Dec 2005, Goswin von Brederlow wrote:
>
> That would realy defeat the purpose of not having to modify every deb.
We'd only modify the set of packages that are in base. That's a very small
set. Are you thinking the opposite?
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| Ron Johnson 2005-12-27, 2:50 am |
| On Tue, 2005-12-27 at 02:17 +0100, Goswin von Brederlow wrote:
> Adam Heath <doogie@debian.org> writes:
>
>
> That would realy defeat the purpose of not having to modify every deb.
Why not "just" modify them the next time they are scheduled to be
built from source?
It occurs to me, though: while adding a {g|b}zip stage to the i386,
amd64, ppc, ia64, etc build wouldn't be noticed that much by 2GHz
CPUs, it *would* be noticed by 40MHz 68Ks. Is there a way to make
the compression conditional on the CPU?
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| Michelle Konzack 2005-12-27, 6:07 pm |
| Am 2005-12-22 16:04:45, schrieb Florian Weimer:
> * Michelle Konzack:
>
>
> With traffic included? How's that more than 10$ per gigabyte
> transferred and month? 8-)
57.000 US$/month / 10 US$/GB = 5700 GB/month
5700 GB/month / 30,4 days / 24 h / 3600 sec = 2,22 MByte/second
2,22 MByte/Second ~ 28 MBit
Because we do not get 34 MBit and we have not a netload
of 100% 24/7 the price per GByte is around 50 US$/GByte.
Please think twice.
Greetings
Michelle
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| Michelle Konzack 2005-12-27, 6:07 pm |
| Am 2005-12-22 16:04:45, schrieb Florian Weimer:
> With traffic included? How's that more than 10$ per gigabyte
> transferred and month? 8-)
IF you can reach 34 Mbit!
My old colo E3 at UUnet in Kehl/Germany was 5000 Euro/month
plus traffic of
as Reseller and End-User
- 40 GByte 28 Euro/GByte 42 Euro/GByte
40 - 80 GByte 26 Euro/GByte 39 Euro/GByte
80 - 160 GByte 24 Euro/GByte ...
160 - 320 GByte 22 Euro/GByte ...
...
Its not really funny in Europe and Africa.
In Germany you can get an E1 für 300-400 Euro/month but if you must pay
for traffic... In France at Estel you pay for the E1 2460 Euro/month.
Ich you count France->Germany then you can have 78 GByte in Germany
for the same prcie in France.
Do not tell me, you can make 600 GByte traffic per month on an E1.
Such things are stupid and you know it. No one run 100/ Netload 24/7.
Greetings
Michelle
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| Michelle Konzack 2005-12-27, 6:07 pm |
| Am 2005-12-22 16:31:57, schrieb Olaf van der Spek:
> On 12/21/05, Andrew Suffield <asuffield@debian.org> wrote:
>
> That's unlimited traffic then I assume?
> At 1 mbyte/s (average) you'd be paying > 25000 $/month.
>
> But do you actually need very high uptime for very large transfers?
Please not, that I had berween 12/1999 and 12/2004 a contract with a
Parisian ISP for a OC-3 and Hosting of one 19" Rack (210cm, 600kg).
I have payed including unlimited traffic 499.998 French Francs
(76.000 Euro) per month and my own Class-C Block registered at RIPE.
I heared (on debian-isp) that in the USA you can get a BGP4 routed
STM4 (622MBit) Fiber Optic for only 120.000 US$ PER YEAR !!!
Arghhhhh... Do I live in the false country?
Greetings
Michelle
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| |
| Olaf van der Spek 2005-12-27, 6:07 pm |
| T24gMTIvMjcvMDUsIE1pY2hlbGxlIEtvbnphY2sg
PGxpbnV4NG1pY2hlbGxlQGZyZWVuZXQuZGU+
IHdyb3RlOgo+IDU3LjAwMCBVUyQvbW9udGggLyAx
MCBVUyQvR0IgPSA1NzAwIEdCL21vbnRoCj4K
PiA1NzAwIEdCL21vbnRoIC8gMzAsNCBkYXlzIC8g
MjQgaCAvIDM2MDAgc2VjID0gMiwyMiBNQnl0
ZS9zZWNvbmQKPgo+IDIsMjIgTUJ5dGUvU2Vjb25k
IH4gMjggTUJpdAoKMTIuNiBiaXQvYnl0ZT8K
Cj4gQmVjYXVzZSB3ZSBkbyBub3QgZ2V0IDM0IE1C
aXQgYW5kIHdlIGhhdmUgbm90IGEgbmV0bG9h
ZAo+IG9mIDEwMCUgMjQvNyB0aGUgcHJpY2UgcGVy
IEdCeXRlIGlzIGFyb3VuZCA1MCBVUyQvR0J5
dGUuCgpUcnVlIGFuZCBJIGRpZG4ndCBrbm93IGl0
IHdhcyB0aGF0IGV4cGVuc2l2ZS4K
| |
| Florian Weimer 2005-12-27, 6:07 pm |
| * Michelle Konzack:
> Because we do not get 34 MBit and we have not a netload
> of 100% 24/7 the price per GByte is around 50 US$/GByte.
This means you still have plenty capacity you've already paid for,
supporting Steinar's claim that bandwidth is cheap.
Just think about it. 8-)
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| Florian Weimer 2005-12-27, 6:07 pm |
| * Michelle Konzack:
> Am 2005-12-22 16:04:45, schrieb Florian Weimer:
>
>
> IF you can reach 34 Mbit!
>
> My old colo E3 at UUnet in Kehl/Germany was 5000 Euro/month
> plus traffic of
> as Reseller and End-User
> - 40 GByte 28 Euro/GByte 42 Euro/GByte
> 40 - 80 GByte 26 Euro/GByte 39 Euro/GByte
> 80 - 160 GByte 24 Euro/GByte ...
> 160 - 320 GByte 22 Euro/GByte ...
> ...
>
> Its not really funny in Europe and Africa.
Even in Euope, you can get IP traffic at certain places for around
6 EUR per MBit/s and month, or something like that.
> In Germany you can get an E1 f=FCr 300-400 Euro/month but if you must pay
> for traffic...
This is still rather cheap for real E1. 8-> Links between arbitrary
places can be quite expensive, unfortunately.
Anyway, you are shifting the topic away from costs of bandwidth to
renting fibers and colo pricing. They aren't equivalent.
| |
| Goswin von Brederlow 2005-12-27, 6:08 pm |
| Ron Johnson <ron.l.johnson@cox.net> writes:
> On Tue, 2005-12-27 at 02:17 +0100, Goswin von Brederlow wrote:
>
> Why not "just" modify them the next time they are scheduled to be
> built from source?
>
> It occurs to me, though: while adding a {g|b}zip stage to the i386,
> amd64, ppc, ia64, etc build wouldn't be noticed that much by 2GHz
> CPUs, it *would* be noticed by 40MHz 68Ks. Is there a way to make
> the compression conditional on the CPU?
On that note, we should make amd64 use bzip2 or similar before
anythinng else is added to the archive.  )))
MfG
Goswin
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| Benjamin Seidenberg 2005-12-29, 2:51 am |
| Benjamin Seidenberg wrote:
> Michelle Konzack wrote:
>
> Seriously? Where? I live in the states, and we pay approx. $50/month
> (600 USD/year) for residential DSL (I think, parents pay the bill).
> That's a 1.5m down/512k up pipe, with horrible reliability (alltel
> sucks). Where can I get the fiber optic for $10/year?
>
> Benjamin
Oopps. Strike that. I read 120.000 as 120 dollars, I'm not used to the
European '.' as the seperator, but the US ','. I also meant $10/month
above, but that's obviously not relevant anymore.
| |
| Benjamin Seidenberg 2005-12-29, 2:51 am |
| Michelle Konzack wrote:
>Please not, that I had berween 12/1999 and 12/2004 a contract with a
>Parisian ISP for a OC-3 and Hosting of one 19" Rack (210cm, 600kg).
>
>I have payed including unlimited traffic 499.998 French Francs
>(76.000 Euro) per month and my own Class-C Block registered at RIPE.
>
>I heared (on debian-isp) that in the USA you can get a BGP4 routed
>STM4 (622MBit) Fiber Optic for only 120.000 US$ PER YEAR !!!
>
>Arghhhhh... Do I live in the false country?
>
>Greetings
>Michelle
>
>
>
Seriously? Where? I live in the states, and we pay approx. $50/month
(600 USD/year) for residential DSL (I think, parents pay the bill).
That's a 1.5m down/512k up pipe, with horrible reliability (alltel
sucks). Where can I get the fiber optic for $10/year?
Benjamin
| |
| John Hasler 2005-12-29, 2:51 am |
| Michelle writes:
> I heared (on debian-isp) that in the USA you can get a BGP4 routed STM4
> (622MBit) Fiber Optic for only 120.000 US$ PER YEAR !!!
Benjamin writes:
> Where can I get the fiber optic for $10/year?
I think you meant to write $10/month. However, Michelle is European and
uses '.' where you would use ',' in numbers.
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| Darren Salt 2005-12-29, 6:06 pm |
| I demand that Benjamin Seidenberg may or may not have written...
[snip]
> I read 120.000 as 120 dollars, I'm not used to the European '.' as the
> seperator, but the US ','.
Hmm? You'd better file a bug against locales wrt en_GB, then ;-)
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| |
| Thomas Bushnell BSG 2006-01-04, 6:29 pm |
| Goswin von Brederlow <brederlo@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> writes:
> Spare disk space isn't available to add amd64 to mirrors.
> Spare bandwith isn't available to add amd64 to mirrors.
I see. Can we please have the numbers? Exactly how much disk space
is needed? Perhaps we can simply go ahead and buy more disks for our
machines.
Mirrors that don't want to carry the additional arch shouldn't have
to; this should be easy to arrange.
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| Christian Leber 2006-01-04, 6:29 pm |
| On Sun, Dec 18, 2005 at 08:31:26PM +0100, Florian Weimer wrote:
> Memory use during decompression would be interesting, too.
For pure lzma it isn't really bad, it's about 100kb + directory_size and
this is usually 8 MB (that is a sane value), but smaller directory
sizes may be used as well.
Some data discussion, also for the speed issue:
(user time only)
compression of libgcj6 (17612800 uncompressed), the first file i found
that is big enough for usefull data
gzip - 7.5 sec - 5118403
bzip2 - 16.9 sec - 5039522
lzma 8MB (-a2) - 53.8 sec - 3643734
lzma 2MB (-a2) - 50.3 sec - 3648493
lzma 1MB (-a2) - 48.1 sec - 3675183
lzma 1MB (-a1) - 41.1 sec - 3707349
lzma 1MB (-a0) - 23.5 sec - 3985219
lzma 512k(-a0) - 22.6 sec - 3994574
lzma 2MB (-a0) - 26.5 sec - 3979074
decompression:
Memory usage about
gzip - 0.2 sec - no idea, but few
bzip2 - 3.2 sec - 3700 kb
lzma 8MB - 0.8 sec - 8200 kb
lzma 2MB - 0.8 sec - 2150 kb
lzma 1MB - 0.8 sec - 1120 kb
lzma 512k- 0.8 sec - 620 kb
In the end adding lzma to dpkg can't harm, it's just a small patch and
has no external requierements, code size just grows like 12 kb or
something.
Cheers,
Christian
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| Michelle Konzack 2006-01-06, 5:58 pm |
| Am 2005-12-27 16:04:42, schrieb Florian Weimer:
> * Michelle Konzack:
>
>
> This means you still have plenty capacity you've already paid for,
> supporting Steinar's claim that bandwidth is cheap.
>
> Just think about it. 8-)
If you need to pay 450.000 DHs (42.000 ¤) for an E3 of 34 MBit
which give you maximum 20-24 MBit because the Infrastructure is
to bad in Morocco then it IS expensive.
Greetings
Michelle
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| Matthew Garrett 2006-01-06, 5:58 pm |
| Michelle Konzack <linux4michelle@freenet.de> wrote:
> If you need to pay 450.000 DHs (42.000 ¤) for an E3 of 34 MBit
> which give you maximum 20-24 MBit because the Infrastructure is
> to bad in Morocco then it IS expensive.
No. Based on what you've said, the price is the same regardless of
whether you download 1GB or 20GB in a month. Therefore, as long as the
increase in traffic doesn't saturate your line, the cost per GB is 0.
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| Michelle Konzack 2006-01-17, 8:04 am |
| Am 2005-12-28 22:33:10, schrieb Benjamin Seidenberg:
> Seriously? Where? I live in the states, and we pay approx. $50/month
> (600 USD/year) for residential DSL (I think, parents pay the bill).
> That's a 1.5m down/512k up pipe, with horrible reliability (alltel
> sucks). Where can I get the fiber optic for $10/year?
I was talking about a E3, STM-1/4 or something similar.
Here in Strasbourg we have ADSL with 8MBit downstream
and 0.5 to 1 MBit upstream for 30-55 Euros.
Generaly these ADSL lines are ADSL2+ with 16 MBit, but
8 MBit are reserved for TV and Telephone.
I use an 1 MBit SDSL (incl. 8 IP fix and free Reverse
DNS Service) from <http://www.nerim.net/> for 253 Euros.
Speed is with warantie. and service 24/7
> Benjamin
Greetings
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator
Tamay Dogan Network
Debian GNU/Linux Consultant
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| Goswin von Brederlow 2006-01-19, 8:12 am |
| Thomas Bushnell BSG <tb@becket.net> writes:
> Goswin von Brederlow <brederlo@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> writes:
>
>
> I see. Can we please have the numbers? Exactly how much disk space
> is needed? Perhaps we can simply go ahead and buy more disks for our
> machines.
I recently posted a mail with mirror sizes for all arch on
debian-devel so check lists.debian.org for it.
The problem also isn't our machines but some mirror in
low-diskspace-land.
> Mirrors that don't want to carry the additional arch shouldn't have
> to; this should be easy to arrange.
Given the recent mail about the mirror split this seems to finaly get
started. So far all primary mirrors HAD to carry all archs.
MfG
Goswin
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| Thomas Bushnell BSG 2006-01-20, 2:50 am |
| Goswin von Brederlow <brederlo@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> writes:
> The problem also isn't our machines but some mirror in
> low-diskspace-land.
The amount of disk it takes to carry a complete Debian copy is simply
going to be increasing. We have to tradeoff dropping a mirror or two
against the costs of weakening the distribution by leaving out
important things.
(And really, data about which mirrors would be dropped would help:
maybe we can buy *them* a disk. Disks are cheap!)
>
> Given the recent mail about the mirror split this seems to finaly get
> started. So far all primary mirrors HAD to carry all archs.
Yes, this has been a long time in coming and I'm glad that it has
begun to move.
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| Ron Johnson 2006-01-20, 8:14 am |
| On Thu, 2006-01-19 at 20:49 -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote:
> Goswin von Brederlow <brederlo@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> writes:
>
[snip]
> (And really, data about which mirrors would be dropped would help:
> maybe we can buy *them* a disk. Disks are cheap!)
Unless the shelf is full, there's no more plugs left on the PS,
there's no more room on the SCSI chain, they only allow purchases
in "RAID-5 units" of SCSI disks, etc, etc.
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"Not peace at any price! Chains are worse than bayonets."
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