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Home > Archive > Debian Developers > October 2006 > Is something wrong to XGL, Compiz, Cgwd be packaged?
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Is something wrong to XGL, Compiz, Cgwd be packaged?
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| eduardo.oliva barruzi 2006-10-25, 7:15 pm |
| Hi, I just wanna know if there are any problems regarding the License or
something else that make these packages actually unavailable?
Thanks
| |
| Ron Johnson 2006-10-25, 7:15 pm |
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On 10/25/06 18:50, eduardo.oliva barruzi wrote:
> Hi, I just wanna know if there are any problems regarding the License or
> something else that make these packages actually unavailable?
$ wajig policy compiz
compiz:
Installed: (none)
Candidate: 0.2.0-1
Version table:
0.2.0-1 0
500 ftp://mirrors.kernel.org unstable/main Packages
- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA USA
Is "common sense" really valid?
For example, it is "common sense" to white-power racists that
whites are superior to blacks, and that those with brown skins
are mud people.
However, that "common sense" is obviously wrong.
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| Paul TBBle Hampson 2006-10-27, 1:17 pm |
| On Wed, Oct 25, 2006 at 08:50:50PM -0300, eduardo.oliva barruzi wrote:
> Hi, I just wanna know if there are any problems regarding the License or
> something else that make these packages actually unavailable?
Given you're talking about cgwd, you prolly mean beryl (nee
compiz-quinnstorm) rather than the original compiz which is
in Debian.
The beryl packaging is being undertaken by the X Strike Force, who're
also maintianing the compiz packages. So no problem yet, you're better
of reading the debian-x list archives to discover why it's not shipped
yet. (I believe they're doing an internal code-freeze for Etch, but I
dunno if Beryl's in that freeze or not)
As for cgwd, I presume that also became something in the beryl
packages (beryl-manager?) and so is being packaged as part of the
beryl packaging.
I dunno about Xgl, it looks like most of the interest shifted to AIGLX,
again you're better off reading the debian-x archives.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Paul "TBBle" Hampson, B.Sc, LPI, MCSE
On-hiatus Asian Studies student, ANU
The Boss, Bubblesworth Pty Ltd (ABN: 51 095 284 361)
Paul.Hampson@Pobox.Com
Of course Pacman didn't influence us as kids. If it did,
we'd be running around in darkened rooms, popping pills and
listening to repetitive music.
-- Kristian Wilson, Nintendo, Inc, 1989
License: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.1/au/
-----------------------------------------------------------
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| David Nusinow 2006-10-28, 1:41 pm |
| On Fri, Oct 27, 2006 at 11:23:27PM +1000, Paul TBBle Hampson wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 25, 2006 at 08:50:50PM -0300, eduardo.oliva barruzi wrote:
Neither has license issues, but Xgl is problematic for various reasons. I
believe that AIGLX is the way forward and we have significant upstream
support for AIGLX that doesn't really exist for Xgl. Once ATI finishes
adding support for t-f-p in fglrx, this won't be an issue any more.
Compiz, as stated elsewhere, is already in, and we're planning to ship it
with Etch though not as the default Debian wm. I'd like to work on making
it a possible default wm for etch+1 if the necessary integrative work can
be done, but that's for a later date.
[vbcol=seagreen]
> Given you're talking about cgwd, you prolly mean beryl (nee
> compiz-quinnstorm) rather than the original compiz which is
> in Debian.
>
> The beryl packaging is being undertaken by the X Strike Force, who're
> also maintianing the compiz packages. So no problem yet, you're better
> of reading the debian-x list archives to discover why it's not shipped
> yet. (I believe they're doing an internal code-freeze for Etch, but I
> dunno if Beryl's in that freeze or not)
You're right about the internal code freeze, although I think beryl should
probably go in to unstable so we can start getting the packages out there.
According to Shawn, who's maintaining it for us, it's not stable enough to
release with Etch though, so seeing it there is pretty well out of the
question. The current set of beryl packages are in good shape, and are
sitting in our svn repo, although shawn hasn't finished packaging emerald
yet, which appears to be the missing piece.
> As for cgwd, I presume that also became something in the beryl
> packages (beryl-manager?) and so is being packaged as part of the
> beryl packaging.
I don't know what cgwd is either, but I don't follow beryl at all at this
point, so I rely on Shawn to teach me those new acronyms. :-)
- David Nusinow
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| Gustavo Franco 2006-10-28, 1:41 pm |
| On 10/28/06, David Nusinow <dnusinow@speakeasy.net> wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 27, 2006 at 11:23:27PM +1000, Paul TBBle Hampson wrote:
>
>
> You're right about the internal code freeze, although I think beryl should
> probably go in to unstable so we can start getting the packages out there.
> According to Shawn, who's maintaining it for us, it's not stable enough to
> release with Etch though, so seeing it there is pretty well out of the
> question. The current set of beryl packages are in good shape, and are
> sitting in our svn repo, although shawn hasn't finished packaging emerald
> yet, which appears to be the missing piece.
Hi David,
If we're going to ship xorg with aiglx and composite enabled by
default (actually i dunno really), beryl in etch and in default
desktop environment (just listed not enabled by default) would be a
huge win, maybe it's too late now. I would like to point out this
anyway.
My opinion is based as a beryl user in an ibook with 'heavily'
customized Debian and not so customized Ubuntu (just needed to push
beryl from 3rd party repository).
>
> I don't know what cgwd is either, but I don't follow beryl at all at this
> point, so I rely on Shawn to teach me those new acronyms. :-)
>
I guess this is somewhere in emerald (part of beryl) source. Btw,
we're talking about window decorators here.
regards,
-- stratus
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| David Nusinow 2006-10-28, 1:41 pm |
| On Sat, Oct 28, 2006 at 02:30:19PM -0200, Gustavo Franco wrote:
> If we're going to ship xorg with aiglx and composite enabled by
> default (actually i dunno really), beryl in etch and in default
> desktop environment (just listed not enabled by default) would be a
> huge win, maybe it's too late now. I would like to point out this
> anyway.
AIGLX is enabled by default in etch already. Composite is not, although we
could enable it. I don't know what the impact would be on kde users though,
as I understand kwin has a compositing manager, although it might not be
able to take advantage of the acceleration hooks like compiz and beryl do.
Compiz should ship with etch, and turning on composite in xorg.conf is
trivial, so I'm not too worried about having it off by default in this
release. I don't really understand your definition of "default desktop
environment", so I can't comment on that...
> My opinion is based as a beryl user in an ibook with 'heavily'
> customized Debian and not so customized Ubuntu (just needed to push
> beryl from 3rd party repository).
How heavily customized does your debian install have to be? I just
installed the packages from the XSF svn repo and beryl worked out of the
box, once I enabled composite. This is pretty minimal.
- David Nusinow
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| Mike Hommey 2006-10-28, 1:41 pm |
| On Sat, Oct 28, 2006 at 12:50:13PM -0400, David Nusinow <dnusinow@speakeasy.net> wrote:
> On Sat, Oct 28, 2006 at 02:30:19PM -0200, Gustavo Franco wrote:
>
> AIGLX is enabled by default in etch already. Composite is not, although we
> could enable it. I don't know what the impact would be on kde users though,
> as I understand kwin has a compositing manager, although it might not be
> able to take advantage of the acceleration hooks like compiz and beryl do.
> Compiz should ship with etch, and turning on composite in xorg.conf is
> trivial, so I'm not too worried about having it off by default in this
> release. I don't really understand your definition of "default desktop
> environment", so I can't comment on that...
It would be neat to have a debconf question for enabling composite.
Mike
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| David Nusinow 2006-10-28, 1:41 pm |
| On Sat, Oct 28, 2006 at 08:27:47PM +0200, Mike Hommey wrote:
> On Sat, Oct 28, 2006 at 12:50:13PM -0400, David Nusinow <dnusinow@speakeasy.net> wrote:
>
> It would be neat to have a debconf question for enabling composite.
The translators would probably kill me, but that's an option for Etch. :-)
For etch+1, I'm planning on making it enabled by default and doing away
with most of the debconf stuff anyway though.
- David Nusinow
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| Hendrik Sattler 2006-10-28, 7:41 pm |
| | |
| Frans Pop 2006-10-28, 7:41 pm |
| On Saturday 28 October 2006 23:11, Gustavo Franco wrote:
> If there will be no regressions, please add the composite bit in the
> xorg.conf by default.
Is that really a good idea for something that is so young and untested, so
shortly before the release?
Is it wanted for all architectures, for all systems, irrespective of their
speed?
Please really consider and discuss the implications before so casually
suggesting something like this.
| |
| Gustavo Franco 2006-10-28, 7:41 pm |
| On 10/28/06, David Nusinow <dnusinow@speakeasy.net> wrote:
> On Sat, Oct 28, 2006 at 02:30:19PM -0200, Gustavo Franco wrote:
>
> AIGLX is enabled by default in etch already. Composite is not, although we
> could enable it. I don't know what the impact would be on kde users though,
> as I understand kwin has a compositing manager, although it might not be
> able to take advantage of the acceleration hooks like compiz and beryl do.
> Compiz should ship with etch, and turning on composite in xorg.conf is
> trivial, so I'm not too worried about having it off by default in this
> release. I don't really understand your definition of "default desktop
> environment", so I can't comment on that...
In other words, with the d-i in Etch our users will be able to easily
install KDE and Xfce with the most important related packages and
GNOME will be easier than that. Just the result of the tasksel team,
d-i team, related desktop environment teams, debian-desktop and some
others work. :-)
If there will be no regressions, please add the composite bit in the
xorg.conf by default.
>
> How heavily customized does your debian install have to be? I just
> installed the packages from the XSF svn repo and beryl worked out of the
> box, once I enabled composite. This is pretty minimal.
I bet that the XSF svn repo already contains that endianess fix,
right? as i told you, i'm using ppc (ibook). :-)
regards,
-- stratus
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| Gustavo Franco 2006-10-28, 7:41 pm |
| On 10/28/06, Frans Pop <elendil@planet.nl> wrote:
> On Saturday 28 October 2006 23:11, Gustavo Franco wrote:
>
> Is that really a good idea for something that is so young and untested, so
> shortly before the release?
> Is it wanted for all architectures, for all systems, irrespective of their
> speed?
Calm down Frans, what about aiglx then? I wrote 'if there will be no
regressions', that's up to XSF and the users using unstable and even
testing tell us. I still trust our release process (as in
unstable->testing).
Btw, i like the debconf suggestion too.
> (...)
regards,
-- stratus
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| Frans Pop 2006-10-28, 7:41 pm |
| On Saturday 28 October 2006 23:56, Gustavo Franco wrote:
>
> Calm down Frans, what about aiglx then?
Yes, possibly the same goes for aiglx.
> I wrote 'if there will be no
> regressions', that's up to XSF and the users using unstable and even
> testing tell us. I still trust our release process (as in
> unstable->testing).
The problem that we hardly have the time to get feedback.
I do know that I currently see loads of bug reports passing by on the
debian-x list relating to compiz, beryl and related stuff, which would
make me very reluctant to enable anything by default.
However, I will be the first to admit that I have not used any of it
myself so far and don't know enough about it anyway. My mail was purely
intended to make the people working on this take a step back and ask
themselves if these new functionalities are really ready to be enabled by
default.
> Btw, i like the debconf suggestion too.
Only if the question is only asked at lower debconf priorities and still
have sensible defaults.
| |
| David Nusinow 2006-10-29, 7:18 am |
| On Sat, Oct 28, 2006 at 08:43:07PM +0200, Hendrik Sattler wrote:
> Am Samstag 28 Oktober 2006 20:30 schrieb David Nusinow:
>
> AFAIK this can be very bad when looking at performance and CPU usage, doesn't
> it? In this case, it should be only be enabled by default, if the underlying
> hardware and it's driver supports hardware acceleration for that. For myself,
> I would not appreciate it on my i815.
Only if a compositing manager is enabled, from what I understand. If
there's no compositing manager turned on, the server doesn't redirect
drawing and you get normal rendering. So you could simply not run a
compositing manager and be fine.
- David Nusinow
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| David Nusinow 2006-10-29, 1:16 pm |
| On Sun, Oct 29, 2006 at 12:59:01AM +0200, Frans Pop wrote:
> On Saturday 28 October 2006 23:56, Gustavo Franco wrote:
>
> Yes, possibly the same goes for aiglx.
We carefully evaluated aiglx and found that it was ok, with a few patches
that we applied prior to uploading compiz support in to Debian. As it is,
it should be solid, and in the buggy cases it's very easy to disable.
My earlier comments about enabling composite by default stand. Composite
itself is solid right now, but I'm not sure how it would effect kwin
users[0]. Aside from that, it shouldn't be a problem because the server
won't actually do any sort of redirection unless a compositing manager is
started.
>
> The problem that we hardly have the time to get feedback.
> I do know that I currently see loads of bug reports passing by on the
> debian-x list relating to compiz, beryl and related stuff, which would
> make me very reluctant to enable anything by default.
Sure, there's no way I want compiz to be the default Debian wm at this
stage, but the bugs you see more likely due to issues specific to the
interaction of compiz with composite and aiglx. Neither composite nor
aiglx should affect normal usage for most people, since under normal
circumstances most GL programs will use DRI instead of glx just like in the
past, and all the traditional drawing operations will go through the same
rendering paths they always did. It's just that if users explicitly run
compiz or beryl, it exposes problems, but again, this shouldn't affect
traditional use.
> However, I will be the first to admit that I have not used any of it
> myself so far and don't know enough about it anyway. My mail was purely
> intended to make the people working on this take a step back and ask
> themselves if these new functionalities are really ready to be enabled by
> default.
>
>
> Only if the question is only asked at lower debconf priorities and still
> have sensible defaults.
Definitely.
- David Nusinow
[0] I'd love some feedback from KDE people on this. I'll sit down and poke
around the kwin code a bit to see how it works if I have the time.
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| Gustavo Franco 2006-10-29, 1:16 pm |
| On 10/29/06, David Nusinow <dnusinow@speakeasy.net> wrote:
> On Sat, Oct 28, 2006 at 08:43:07PM +0200, Hendrik Sattler wrote:
>
> Only if a compositing manager is enabled, from what I understand. If
> there's no compositing manager turned on, the server doesn't redirect
> drawing and you get normal rendering. So you could simply not run a
> compositing manager and be fine.
>
Since it won't hurt metacity users, if kde people tell us that it
won't be enabled by default in kwin i think we could enable composite
by default in xorg, no?
regards,
-- stratus
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| Frans Pop 2006-10-29, 7:23 pm |
| On Sunday 29 October 2006 14:14, David Nusinow wrote:
> [0] I'd love some feedback from KDE people on this. I'll sit down and
> poke around the kwin code a bit to see how it works if I have the time.
In that case wouldn't a mail to debian-kde with some information and
instructions be the best way to go about that.
Some info on how to check that it is enabled and what to expect would be
nice.
I use KDE, but have not tried this stuff yet as it all seemed very
GNOME-centered...
Cheers,
FJP
| |
| Hendrik Sattler 2006-10-29, 7:23 pm |
| | |
| Paul TBBle Hampson 2006-10-30, 1:24 am |
| On Sat, Oct 28, 2006 at 07:11:11PM -0200, Gustavo Franco wrote:
> On 10/28/06, David Nusinow <dnusinow@speakeasy.net> wrote:
[vbcol=seagreen]
> I bet that the XSF svn repo already contains that endianess fix,
> right? as i told you, i'm using ppc (ibook). :-)
Not according to the bug report [1], at least.
I can't seem to reach the XSF SVN server today either.
[1] http://bugs.debian.org/392453
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Paul "TBBle" Hampson, B.Sc, LPI, MCSE
On-hiatus Asian Studies student, ANU
The Boss, Bubblesworth Pty Ltd (ABN: 51 095 284 361)
Paul.Hampson@Pobox.Com
Of course Pacman didn't influence us as kids. If it did,
we'd be running around in darkened rooms, popping pills and
listening to repetitive music.
-- Kristian Wilson, Nintendo, Inc, 1989
License: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.1/au/
-----------------------------------------------------------
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