|
Home > Archive > Debian Developers > November 2006 > how to tell people to dpkg-reconfigure exim4-_CONFIG_?
You are viewing an archived Text-only version of the thread.
To view this thread in it's original format and/or if you want to reply to
this thread please [click here]
| Author |
how to tell people to dpkg-reconfigure exim4-_CONFIG_?
|
|
| Marc Haber 2006-10-08, 7:45 pm |
| Hi,
"how to reconfigure exim4" is one of the most frequently asked
questions on #debian.
The reason is that dpkg-reconfigure exim4 is a no-op since exim4 is a
metapackage pulling in the "real" packages exim4, exim4-base,
exim4-daemon-light/heavy/custom. The correct command to reconfigure
exim4 is dpkg-reconfigure exim4-config.
I'd now like a low priority debconf note in exim4, exim4-base and the
daemon packages which is only shown if the package is to be
_re_configured, and tells people to dpkg-reconfigure exim4-config.
Is this considered debconf abuse? Is there any more elegant method to
take this special support burden of the supporters?
Greetings
Marc
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marc Haber | "I don't trust Computers. They | Mailadresse im Header
Mannheim, Germany | lose things." Winona Ryder | Fon: *49 621 72739834
Nordisch by Nature | How to make an American Quilt | Fax: *49 621 72739835
--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
| |
| Frans Pop 2006-10-08, 7:45 pm |
| On Sunday 08 October 2006 22:26, Marc Haber wrote:
> I'd now like a low priority debconf note in exim4, exim4-base and the
> daemon packages which is only shown if the package is to be
> _re_configured, and tells people to dpkg-reconfigure exim4-config.
A _low_ priority note probably makes no sense as with the default debconf
prio (high) almost nobody would ever get to see it, which kind of defeats
its purpose.
Or am I missing something?
| |
| Hendrik Sattler 2006-10-08, 7:45 pm |
| | |
| James Westby 2006-10-08, 7:45 pm |
| On (08/10/06 22:35), Frans Pop wrote:
> On Sunday 08 October 2006 22:26, Marc Haber wrote:
>
> A _low_ priority note probably makes no sense as with the default debconf
> prio (high) almost nobody would ever get to see it, which kind of defeats
> its purpose.
> Or am I missing something?
The default level when doing dpkg-reconfigure is low, so that it wont be
seen on installation, but if the user tries to reconfigure exim4 they
will be directed to the correct package.
James
--
James Westby -- GPG Key ID: B577FE13 -- http://jameswestby.net/
seccure key - (3+)k7|M*edCX/.A:n*N!>|&7U.L#9E)Tu)T0>AM - secp256r1/nistp256
--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
| |
| Hendrik Sattler 2006-10-08, 7:45 pm |
| | |
| Kevin Mark 2006-10-08, 7:45 pm |
| On Sun, Oct 08, 2006 at 11:22:05PM +0200, Hendrik Sattler wrote:
> Am Sonntag 08 Oktober 2006 22:58 schrieb James Westby:
>
> The ultimate solution would be it dpkg-reconfigure magically knew that when
> configuring exim4, it must actually configure exim4-config.
>
> HS
Hi Hendrik et al,
from a perspective as a user of Debian, I expect things to make sense
and be the most intuitive(e.g. mnemonic). This would make me expect to
be able to use 'dpkg-reconfigure $PKG' to reconfigure $PKG, assuming
that there was only one way to reconfigure it, even if $PKG is virtual.
And even if it was in the README.debian, that is one more step for any
newbie, although obviously it SHOULD be done by any diligent user. I'd
propose someway of aliasing 'dpkg-reconfigure exim4' to
'dpkg-reconfigure exim4-config' with one addition that
'dpkg-reconfigure' note somewhere what command it is actually issuing as
a 'reminder' of the actual command. I do not know where this is
implemented in the Debian infrastructure: in dpkg-reconfigure, in the
DEB package files, or some other place.
cheers,
Kev
--
| .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux == | my web site: |
| : :' : The Universal | debian.home.pipeline.com |
| `. `' Operating System | go to counter.li.org and |
| `- http://www.debian.org/ | be counted! #238656 |
| my keysever: pgp.mit.edu | my NPO: cfsg.org |
| |
| Marc Haber 2006-10-09, 7:30 am |
| On Sun, 8 Oct 2006 23:22:05 +0200, Hendrik Sattler
<debian@hendrik-sattler.de> wrote:
>Am Sonntag 08 Oktober 2006 22:58 schrieb James Westby:
be[vbcol=seagreen]
>
>The ultimate solution would be it dpkg-reconfigure magically knew that =
when=20
>configuring exim4, it must actually configure exim4-config.
Definetely. Is this possible to do without breaking things? And
without replicating code throughout all exim4 packages?
Greetings
Marc
--=20
-------------------------------------- !! No courtesy copies, please !! =
-----
Marc Haber | " Questions are the | Mailadresse im =
Header
Mannheim, Germany | Beginning of Wisdom " | =
http://www.zugschlus.de/
Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fon: *49 621 =
72739834
| |
| Marc Haber 2006-10-09, 7:30 am |
| On Sun, 8 Oct 2006 22:47:44 +0200, Hendrik Sattler
<debian@hendrik-sattler.de> wrote:
>/usr/share/doc/exim4/README.Debian.gz:
That is one of the most ignored files on any Debian system.
Users are so incredibly stupid!
Did you miss that exim4 is my package, and that you are pointing me
towards documentation I wrote myself? And that _I_ know that it's
exim4-config to be reconfigured?
Greetings
Marc
--=20
-------------------------------------- !! No courtesy copies, please !! =
-----
Marc Haber | " Questions are the | Mailadresse im =
Header
Mannheim, Germany | Beginning of Wisdom " | =
http://www.zugschlus.de/
Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fon: *49 621 =
72739834
| |
| sean finney 2006-10-09, 7:30 am |
| hey marc,
On Mon, 2006-10-09 at 09:08 +0200, Marc Haber wrote:
funny, i'd have said the ultimate solution was finding a way to make the
users learn about looking at README.Debian 
[vbcol=seagreen]
> Definetely. Is this possible to do without breaking things? And
> without replicating code throughout all exim4 packages?
i'd be really, really wary of doing something like this. imho packages
should never touch/reference/know-about anything under /var/lib/dpkg.
i'm also not convinced that this couldn't break something, somehow, in
some wierd corner case. but my concerns have more to do with the
previous issue, and the fact that this could later be used to set
a precedent in other packages where the packagers are both more
ambitious and less careful.
sean
| |
| Marc Haber 2006-10-09, 7:30 am |
| On Mon, 09 Oct 2006 09:23:48 +0200, sean finney <seanius@seanius.net>
wrote:
>On Mon, 2006-10-09 at 09:08 +0200, Marc Haber wrote:
that when=20[vbcol=seagreen]
>
>funny, i'd have said the ultimate solution was finding a way to make the
>users learn about looking at README.Debian
That is unrealistic. I expect our users to get more stupid instead of
less stupid.
Greetings
Marc
--=20
-------------------------------------- !! No courtesy copies, please !! =
-----
Marc Haber | " Questions are the | Mailadresse im =
Header
Mannheim, Germany | Beginning of Wisdom " | =
http://www.zugschlus.de/
Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fon: *49 621 =
72739834
| |
| Magnus Holmgren 2006-10-09, 7:30 am |
| | |
| James R. Van Zandt 2006-10-10, 1:46 am |
|
Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> wrote
> On Mon, 09 Oct 2006 09:23:48 +0200, sean finney <seanius@seanius.net>
> wrote:
That is, "they should be paying more attention to this important
package". The trouble is, the same user has installed 1900 other
packages, and their maintainers think they are important, too.
[vbcol=seagreen]
> That is unrealistic. I expect our users to get more stupid instead of
> less stupid.
No, but we have an attention economy, and we should expect our users
to get more distracted.
The thing I really appreciated about Debian after I first installed it
was that someone else was paying attention (to where the configuration
files went, and what versions of what libraries it depended on, and
what the defaults were...) so that I didn't have to spend an hour
studying how to build and set up each package before I even started on
the user documentation. In other words, I didn't have to pay as much
attention.
There are a few things we *do* want the user to pay attention to, like
passwords, firewall rules, backups, and what services to export. We
should not demand that he pay close attention to all 1900 packages.
Or even the "important" ones.
I think that if we can figure out how to get
dpkg-reconfigure exim4
to actually configure exim4, then we should.
- Jim Van Zandt
--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
| |
| Reinhard Tartler 2006-10-10, 7:40 am |
| Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> writes:
> Hi,
>
> "how to reconfigure exim4" is one of the most frequently asked
> questions on #debian.
How about a simple 'echo' when reconfiguring?
When upgrading/installing the exim packages, users most probably won't
notice this. When a user issues a 'dpkg-reconfigure exim4', this
could/would be the only thing he sees.
Cons: Untranslated message
Pros: less annoying by not interrupting installs and upgrades, easy to
implement
--
Gruesse/greetings,
Reinhard Tartler, KeyID 945348A4
--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
| |
| Jon Dowland 2006-10-10, 7:40 am |
| sean finney wrote:
> funny, i'd have said the ultimate solution was finding a way to make the
> users learn about looking at README.Debian
>
I think users can be forgiven not reading every README.Debian in
packages which are installed by default.
--
Jon Dowland
http://alcopop.org/
--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
| |
| Reinhard Tartler 2006-10-10, 7:40 am |
| Jon Dowland <lists@alcopop.org> writes:
> sean finney wrote:
> I think users can be forgiven not reading every README.Debian in
> packages which are installed by default.
Not for every installed package, but I think we should expect that for
packages, with which users have problems configuring.
If we cannot expect that, perhaps we should advertise the existance of
those README.Debian files better.
--
Gruesse/greetings,
Reinhard Tartler, KeyID 945348A4
--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
| |
| Don Armstrong 2006-10-10, 1:22 pm |
| On Tue, 10 Oct 2006, Reinhard Tartler wrote:
> Cons: Untranslated message
> Pros: less annoying by not interrupting installs and upgrades, easy to
> implement
Cons: Can't be easily seen in non-console frontends, dissapears off of
the screen rapidly, etc.
Using echo to inform the user of things is really not ideal.
README.Debian, NEWS.Debian, and low priority debconf notes when
appropriate are much, much better.
Don Armstrong
--=20
I shall require that [a scientific system's] logical form shall be
such that it can be singled out, by means of emperical tests, in a
negative sense: it must be possible for an emperical scientific system
to be refuted by experience.
-- Sir Karl Popper _Logic of Scientific Discovery_ =A76
http://www.donarmstrong.com http://rzlab.ucr.edu
| |
| Reinhard Tartler 2006-10-10, 7:32 pm |
| Don Armstrong <don@debian.org> writes:
> On Tue, 10 Oct 2006, Reinhard Tartler wrote:
>
> Cons: Can't be easily seen in non-console frontends, dissapears off of
> the screen rapidly, etc.
>
> Using echo to inform the user of things is really not ideal.
> README.Debian, NEWS.Debian, and low priority debconf notes when
> appropriate are much, much better.
And this is exactly the point: ppl just do 'dpkg-reconfigure exim4' and
then come to irc channels or other forums complaining that nothing
happens. Of course the situation is properly documented in
README.Debian, but the target audience here doesn't read that
documentation.
My point is that `dpkg-reconfigure exim4` is what users seem to expect
to work (without reading documentation). Therefore I suggested adding
some additional information at the point that doesn't behave to what
users expect. I didn't propose how to fix, just a piece of information
for users how to find out how to do what they actually wanted to do.
--
Gruesse/greetings,
Reinhard Tartler, KeyID 945348A4
--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
| |
| Frank Küster 2006-10-10, 7:32 pm |
| Don Armstrong <don@debian.org> wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Oct 2006, Reinhard Tartler wrote:
>
> Cons: Can't be easily seen in non-console frontends, dissapears off of
> the screen rapidly, etc.
>
> Using echo to inform the user of things is really not ideal.
> README.Debian, NEWS.Debian, and low priority debconf notes when
> appropriate are much, much better.
In that case, where the problem is that people do *not* read these
files, and "dpkg-reconfigure exim4" exits silently without doing
anything, it seems to be ideal.
Regards, Frank
--=20
Dr. Frank K=FCster
Single Molecule Spectroscopy, Protein Folding @ Inst. f. Biochemie, Univ. Z=
=FCrich
Debian Developer (teTeX/TeXLive)
| |
| Don Armstrong 2006-10-11, 1:47 am |
| On Tue, 10 Oct 2006, Reinhard Tartler wrote:
> My point is that `dpkg-reconfigure exim4` is what users seem to
> expect to work (without reading documentation). Therefore I
> suggested adding some additional information at the point that
> doesn't behave to what users expect. I didn't propose how to fix,
> just a piece of information for users how to find out how to do what
> they actually wanted to do.
So have a note in exim4's debconf which tells the users that, and only
display the note if DEBCONF_RECONFIGURE=1 or $1='reconfigure'.
Don Armstrong
--
LEADERSHIP -- A form of self-preservation exhibited by people with
autodestructive imaginations in order to ensure that when it comes to
the crunch it'll be someone else's bones which go crack and not their
own.
-- The HipCrime Vocab by Chad C. Mulligan
(John Brunner _Stand On Zanzibar_ p256-7)
http://www.donarmstrong.com http://rzlab.ucr.edu
--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
| |
| Marc Haber 2006-10-13, 7:35 am |
| On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 22:05:07 +0200, Frank K=FCster <frank@debian.org>
wrote:
>In that case, where the problem is that people do *not* read these
>files, and "dpkg-reconfigure exim4" exits silently without doing
>anything, it seems to be ideal.
Explain that please.
Greetings
Marc
--=20
-------------------------------------- !! No courtesy copies, please !! =
-----
Marc Haber | " Questions are the | Mailadresse im =
Header
Mannheim, Germany | Beginning of Wisdom " | =
http://www.zugschlus.de/
Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fon: *49 621 =
72739834
| |
| Marc Haber 2006-10-13, 7:35 am |
| On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 19:30:52 -0700, Don Armstrong <don@debian.org>
wrote:
>So have a note in exim4's debconf which tells the users that, and only
>display the note if DEBCONF_RECONFIGURE=3D1 or $1=3D'reconfigure'.
That is what I did for the exim4 package uploaded on Tuesday.
Greetings
Marc
--=20
-------------------------------------- !! No courtesy copies, please !! =
-----
Marc Haber | " Questions are the | Mailadresse im =
Header
Mannheim, Germany | Beginning of Wisdom " | =
http://www.zugschlus.de/
Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fon: *49 621 =
72739834
| |
| Marc Haber 2006-10-13, 7:35 am |
| On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 13:44:57 +0200, Reinhard Tartler
<siretart@tauware.de> wrote:
>If we cannot expect that, perhaps we should advertise the existance of
>those README.Debian files better.
I would be interested in how exim4 can advertise its README.Debian any
better, short paying for google adwords.
Greetings
Marc
--=20
-------------------------------------- !! No courtesy copies, please !! =
-----
Marc Haber | " Questions are the | Mailadresse im =
Header
Mannheim, Germany | Beginning of Wisdom " | =
http://www.zugschlus.de/
Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fon: *49 621 =
72739834
| |
| Frank Küster 2006-10-13, 1:27 pm |
| Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 22:05:07 +0200, Frank K=FCster <frank@debian.org>
> wrote:
>
> Explain that please.
I just imagined someone doing
# dpkg-reconfigure exim4
#=20
compared to=20
# dpkg-reconfigure exim4
Please use dpkg-reconfigure exim4-config instead!
#=20
However, although this looks simple and short, it doesn't take into
account the various possible ways to access debconf, and it won't work
at all if a package manager has a "reconfigure this package" button.
Regards, Frank
--=20
Dr. Frank K=FCster
Single Molecule Spectroscopy, Protein Folding @ Inst. f. Biochemie, Univ. Z=
=FCrich
Debian Developer (teTeX/TeXLive)
| |
| Osamu Aoki 2006-11-03, 7:21 am |
| On Fri, Oct 13, 2006 at 12:45:09PM +0200, Marc Haber wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 19:30:52 -0700, Don Armstrong <don@debian.org>
> wrote:
>
> That is what I did for the exim4 package uploaded on Tuesday.
So far, that works nicely :-)
I think we need to start advatizing configure-debian instead of
dpkg-configure for user friendly but still low level configuration
interface. There, it is obvious exim*<S-F8> has many packages.
Osamu
--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
|
|
|
|
|