Adrian, I've noticed lately that almost every post you send is about the
release; Pointing out problems with some feature or other of it or with
the actions of the hard working people who are trying to get sarge out
the door.

Do you think you could manage to leave your critisms til next week when
we might have released and turn them into constructive criticisms
instead of merely demanding pieces of information from the release team?

I don't know what you hope to achieve by doing this.  "Never attribute
to malice what can be explained by ignorance".  Maybe you just don't
realise that you're pestering the release team and others and drawing
them into pointless debates which won't help release sarge.

I'd like to ask you publically to hold off for a couple of weeks with
these questions.  I'm sure you have an entirely rational reason for
asking them and that it will end up being productive for Debian but I
honestly think it would be better if they were asked later on.  A
post-mortem of this release in order to better prepare for Etch might
indeed help us and I can only imagine you're itching to write it given
the number of questions you've asked.

Once sarge releases I'm sure there'll be plenty of time to talk about
how to get a quicker, predictable release schedule for Etch.

Thanks,

-- 
,--huggie-at-earth-dot-li--------stuff-thing-stuff----------DF5CE2B4--.
_|     "1 girl was just abducted." - Mulder "Kidnapped." - Scully      |_
|                     "Potato, potato.." - Mulder                     |
`- http://www.earth.li/~huggie/ - http://www.blackcatnetworks.co.uk/ -'

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On Mon, May 30, 2005 at 12:17:29PM +0100, Simon Huggins wrote:

> Adrian, I've noticed lately that almost every post you send is about the
> release; Pointing out problems with some feature or other of it or with
> the actions of the hard working people who are trying to get sarge out
> the door.
>
> Do you think you could manage to leave your critisms til next week when
> we might have released and turn them into constructive criticisms
> instead of merely demanding pieces of information from the release team?
>
> I don't know what you hope to achieve by doing this.  "Never attribute
> to malice what can be explained by ignorance".  Maybe you just don't
> realise that you're pestering the release team and others and drawing
> them into pointless debates which won't help release sarge.
>
> I'd like to ask you publically to hold off for a couple of weeks with
> these questions.  I'm sure you have an entirely rational reason for
> asking them and that it will end up being productive for Debian but I
> honestly think it would be better if they were asked later on.  A
> post-mortem of this release in order to better prepare for Etch might
> indeed help us and I can only imagine you're itching to write it given
> the number of questions you've asked.
>
> Once sarge releases I'm sure there'll be plenty of time to talk about
> how to get a quicker, predictable release schedule for Etch.

Could you please read and understand the email you are answering to
before sending such emails?

My email was not about the release process for sarge (unless the release
process for sarge will be aborted a third time, there's nothing that can
be changed).

My email was about an issue that is present _now_ and that has to be
attacked _before_ sarge.

Or do you _really_ want to release sarge with many dozens of already
known and fixed bugs?

> Thanks,

cu
Adrian

--

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of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
"Only a promise," Lao Er said.
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Adrian Bunk <bunk@stusta.de> writes:

> Or do you _really_ want to release sarge with many dozens of already
> known and fixed bugs?

Yes.  Given the number of packages in Debian, some amount of this is
inevitable.  We'll live.

And you're not just providing constructive feedback.  You're also picking
personal fights with the release team and speculating wildly and as
negatively as possible about their motives.  Please stop.  It's obnoxious,
abusive, and unhelpful.

--
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Russ Allbery wrote:
>Adrian Bunk <bunk@stusta.de> writes:
> 
>
>Yes.  Given the number of packages in Debian, some amount of this is
>inevitable.  We'll live.
>
>And you're not just providing constructive feedback.  You're also picking
>personal fights with the release team and speculating wildly and as
>negatively as possible about their motives.  Please stop.  It's obnoxious,
>abusive, and unhelpful.

Seconded.

--
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.                                steve@einval.c
om
"I can't ever sleep on planes ... call it irrational if you like, but I'm
afraid I'll miss my stop" -- Vivek Dasmohapatra


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In article <20050530111729.GL1707@paranoidfreak.co.uk> you wrote:
> Do you think you could manage to leave your critisms til next week when
> we might have released and turn them into constructive criticisms
> instead of merely demanding pieces of information from the release team?

He is warning about a big number of onresolved RC Bugs which will  look to
users like regression. It is not unreasonable to at least address this issue
in the Release not (because personally I dont expect a Bug-Free Release).

> I don't know what you hope to achieve by doing this.  "Never attribute
> to malice what can be explained by ignorance".  Maybe you just don't
> realise that you're pestering the release team and others and drawing
> them into pointless debates which won't help release sarge.

Actually I am glad somebody is working public visible on the release issues
and would not critisize him for that.

Greetings
Bernd


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Adrian Bunk wrote:
> Or do you _really_ want to release sarge with many dozens of already 
> known and fixed bugs?

I'd worry about it more if we hadn't suffered from the same or similar
problems with ever previous Debian release, TBPH. Even back when we froze
unstable, this just pushed certian bugfixes out of the archive entirely.

As long as we do a little better each release, the sky is not falling in
my part of the world.

-- 
see shy jo

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Bernd Eckenfels <ecki@lina.inka.de> writes:
> Actually I am glad somebody is working public visible on the release issue
s
> and would not critisize him for that.

Pointing out a problem is nice, but doing so in an obnoxious manner
hurts.

-Miles
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I noticed that Adrian moved a bug report for a kernel in sid (2.6.10
IIRC) to the 2.6.8 kernel so it appeared as a Sarge RC Bug?  I didn't
see anything that showed that it was a 2.6.8 problem, maybe it is, but
it looked like second guessing to me...

How is this helping Sarge?  If it turns out that it does affect part
of Sarge then isn't there a means provided to upload the new .deb
files after release?

Bug in question is #303200, also it seems it was downgraded to a
non-RC bug, so now doesn't that mean that it is now filed in wrong
places?

P.S. Miles: sorry that you'll get it twice, I forgot to check the To: box...

On 31/05/05, Miles Bader <miles@lsi.nec.co.jp> wrote:
> Bernd Eckenfels <ecki@lina.inka.de> writes: 
>
> Pointing out a problem is nice, but doing so in an obnoxious manner
> hurts.
>
> -Miles
> --
> $B<+$i$r6u$K$7$F!"?4$r3+$/;~!"F;$O3+$+$l$k(B
>
>
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>
>


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On Mon, May 30, 2005 at 03:45:07PM -0400, Joey Hess wrote:
> Adrian Bunk wrote: 
>
> I'd worry about it more if we hadn't suffered from the same or similar
> problems with ever previous Debian release, TBPH. Even back when we froze
> unstable, this just pushed certian bugfixes out of the archive entirely.
>...

How can this happen whenyou freeze unstable?

> see shy jo

cu
Adrian

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"Only a promise," Lao Er said.
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On Tue, 31 May 2005, Adrian Bunk wrote:

> On Mon, May 30, 2005 at 03:45:07PM -0400, Joey Hess wrote: 
>
> How can this happen whenyou freeze unstable?

I guess you will not understand at each other if you use the term
"freezing unstable" with two different meanings. I see that the term
may have at least two meanings:

* "frozen" is created initially as a copy of unstable. After this,
frozen and unstable evolve separately, unless you upload some package
for "frozen unstable", as we did in the old days. I bet Adrian would
not call this a proper freeze of unstable, as it would be the "frozen"
distribution who would be really frozen, not unstable.

* "unstable" is actually frozen, which means uploads for unstable
are either discouraged, they remain in the limbo, or they are automatically
put in some other distribution above unstable, like new-unstable, until
testing or unstable becomes the new stable.


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