Support contract in Texas, need engineer with experience. various
platforms. Call 1800-548-2607 770-569-2828 ext 203 Robert

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On 6 Dec 2005 10:55:16 -0800, rhosea@
> Support contract in Texas,

This isn't a jobs group, this is where techies talk to each other.

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In article <1133895316.165095.103230@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
rhosea@sacomputer.com writes:
> Support contract in Texas, need engineer with experience. various
> platforms. Call 1800-548-2607 770-569-2828 ext 203 Robert
>

As somebody else has pointed out, this is not a jobs group.  You might have
better luck - and avoid the stigma of being a usenet spammer - if you were t
o
post to tx.jobs.offered, dfw.jobs, austin.jobs or one of the many other grou
ps
with "jobs" in the title.  As is, you've branded yourself as a spammer and h
ave
reduced the likelihood of finding a viable candidate for what _might_ be a
valid offer - all through failing to do your homework.

Pity.

Bob Melson

--
Robert G. Melson | Rio Grande MicroSolutions | El Paso, Texas
-----
"One of the greatest delusions in the world is the hope that the evils in th
is world are to be cured by legislation." Thomas Reed
-----

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On 6 Dec 2005 19:01:56 GMT Dave Hinz <DaveHinz@spamcop.net> wrote:

| On 6 Dec 2005 10:55:16 -0800, rhosea@
|> Support contract in Texas,
|
| This isn't a jobs group, this is where techies talk to each other.

Then we might as well talk to each other.

I always wonder why it is that businesses that use systems like HP/UX
never provider opportunities for someone to get experience with their
particular system (e.g. in this case HP/UX), but then often complain
that it's so hard to find experienced people.

I wonder if this has anything to do with a similar issue where business
people will listen to high priced consultants, but never list to their
own techies in the IT department who may well be saying the very same
thing.

--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
| Phil Howard KA9WGN       | http://linuxhomepage.com/      http://ham.org/ 
|
| (first name) at ipal.net | http://phil.ipal.org/   http://ka9wgn.ham.org/ 
|
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-

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On 12 Dec 2005 15:53:56 GMT, phil-news-nospam@ipal.net <phil-news-nospam@ipal.net> wrote:[vb
col=seagreen]
> On 6 Dec 2005 19:01:56 GMT Dave Hinz <DaveHinz@spamcop.net> wrote:
>
>| On 6 Dec 2005 10:55:16 -0800, rhosea@
>|> Support contract in Texas,
>|
>| This isn't a jobs group, this is where techies talk to each other.
>
> Then we might as well talk to each other.[/vbcol]

Fair enough, what's up?

> I always wonder why it is that businesses that use systems like HP/UX
> never provider opportunities for someone to get experience with their
> particular system (e.g. in this case HP/UX), but then often complain
> that it's so hard to find experienced people.

It depends.  Last time we hired someone here, we gave serious thought to
hiring a PFY and training them up.  But, it was the last thing we wanted
to do, because as usual we were short-staffed and needed talent now, not
two years from now.  There's always a risk that the green admin will
bail after a couple of years, too.  My thinking is that you pay them
well and they'll stay, but I'm not the guy with the budget numbers to
work out.

I took an HP-UX job a number of years ago, as a sun/linux guy.  Made it
clear that I had no direct HP-UX expereince.  Wasn't a problem, they
sent me to a 1-week training class (in Dallas, in August.  Note to self:
don't ever do that again) called "HP-UX System administration for
experienced system administrators" or something like that.  Basically a
"OK, so you know _what_ to do already, here's _how_ to do it in this
particular Unix" class.

> I wonder if this has anything to do with a similar issue where business
> people will listen to high priced consultants, but never list to their
> own techies in the IT department who may well be saying the very same
> thing.

That's just human nature.

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In article <dnk6ek11ufh@news4.newsguy.com>,
phil-news-nospam@ipal.net writes:
> On 6 Dec 2005 19:01:56 GMT Dave Hinz <DaveHinz@spamcop.net> wrote:
>
>| On 6 Dec 2005 10:55:16 -0800, rhosea@
>|> Support contract in Texas,
>|
>| This isn't a jobs group, this is where techies talk to each other.
<snip>
> I wonder if this has anything to do with a similar issue where business
> people will listen to high priced consultants, but never list to their
> own techies in the IT department who may well be saying the very same
> thing.
>
It's all part of the ol' "it can't be good if it's free" syndrome found
commonly among bean-counters and button-sorters.  Also applies to open sourc
e
software.  Remember, the BCs and BSs are the same ones who apply cost
accounting rules to every position but their own, who've throttled corporate
R&D, who're chasing tech jobs off-shore, all in the interest of the quarterl
y
bottom line and never mind the damage done otherwise.

Bah!

Bob Melson


--
Robert G. Melson | Rio Grande MicroSolutions | El Paso, Texas
-----
"One of the greatest delusions in the world is the hope that the evils in th
is world are to be cured by legislation." Thomas Reed
-----

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Dave Hinz wrote:
> On 12 Dec 2005 15:53:56 GMT, phil-news-nospam@ipal.net <phil-news-nospam@i
pal.net> wrote: 
>
> Fair enough, what's up?
> 
>
> It depends.  Last time we hired someone here, we gave serious thought to
> hiring a PFY and training them up.  But, it was the last thing we wanted
> to do, because as usual we were short-staffed and needed talent now, not
> two years from now.  There's always a risk that the green admin will
> bail after a couple of years, too.  My thinking is that you pay them
> well and they'll stay, but I'm not the guy with the budget numbers to
> work out.
>

I had to look up PFY. <guffaw>

There is an in-between <see below>

> I took an HP-UX job a number of years ago, as a sun/linux guy.  Made it
> clear that I had no direct HP-UX expereince.

So you weren't a PFY, with some experience and could pick up another
flavor in far less than two years.

> Wasn't a problem, they
> sent me to a 1-week training class (in Dallas, in August.  Note to self:
> don't ever do that again) called "HP-UX System administration for
> experienced system administrators" or something like that.  Basically a
> "OK, so you know _what_ to do already, here's _how_ to do it in this
> particular Unix" class.
>

Ha! 13 or 14 years in Houston made Dallas in August look like a vacation
resort.  8-)

I remember having a developer who had moved on to another venue call me
up and ask me to apply as a sysadmin in her new world - seems she
remembered that the machines magically became stable after I took over
as admin on the project we shared and there was a need for the same
thing to happen in her new venue.  It was heavy HP and at the time I had
never touched HP.  Several PC *nix, AIX, and a little SUN, but no HP.
Well, that capped it for them and they said 'no thanks'.

What is funny is that a year later, for another part of the same
company, I was interviewing over the phone and when I mentioned my first
real UNIX box was an honest-to-goodness 3B2 - there was a slight pause
and "If you learned on a 3B2 you can handle any machine we have - when
can you start".  Within 6 months I was asked to deal with some
production HP machines (I was in development - not the datacenter)
simply because I could understand the problem and get the job done -
which ultimately entailed going to their boss and explaining the problem
and lack of solution I was running into.  Of course, the folks were
told to get it done, and fast (it really was becoming a time critical
issue).

The punch line?  Some of the folks in the team interview I went thru who
nixed me due to no HP experience - you guessed it - were the
unresponsive folks whose boss I had to go to.

 
>
> That's just human nature.
>

True.  Lending a helping hand and murder are both historically common
traits in humans too, but hopefully we know which ones we wish to see
reinforced, eh?

Cheers.

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On Mon, 12 Dec 2005 18:02:25 -0700, Timothy J. Bogart <tbogart@frii.net> wrote:
> Dave Hinz wrote:
 
[vbcol=seagreen]
> I had to look up PFY. <guffaw>

Meant in a non-demeaning way, of course, in this context.  We've all
been there/done that, after all.  Guy needs a good mentor.

> There is an in-between <see below>

You bet.
 
[vbcol=seagreen]
> So you weren't a PFY, with some experience and could pick up another
> flavor in far less than two years.

Sure.  It's just another flavor of Unix, right?  You already know what
to do, you just need the specifics on _how_ to do it on that flavor.
It's just another SVR4 Unix, after all.
 
[vbcol=seagreen]
> Ha! 13 or 14 years in Houston made Dallas in August look like a vacation
> resort.  8-)

I'm a German/Norwegian/Danish-blooded guy from Wisconsin.  100+ at 90%
humidity sucks no matter where you are, with all that northern european
blood.

> I remember having a developer who had moved on to another venue call me
> up and ask me to apply as a sysadmin in her new world - seems she
> remembered that the machines magically became stable after I took over
> as admin on the project we shared and there was a need for the same
> thing to happen in her new venue.

Good reputation to have.  Easier if you're following someone who was
incompetant and left lots of easy targets to fix.

> It was heavy HP and at the time I had
> never touched HP.  Several PC *nix, AIX, and a little SUN, but no HP.
> Well, that capped it for them and they said 'no thanks'.

Their loss.  I'm guessing it was an HR-type person, not a techie-type
person, who gave you the "go away"?

> What is funny is that a year later, for another part of the same
> company, I was interviewing over the phone and when I mentioned my first
> real UNIX box was an honest-to-goodness 3B2 - there was a slight pause
> and "If you learned on a 3B2 you can handle any machine we have - when
> can you start".

There ya go.  One of my favorite questions to ask someone in an
interview is: "Tell me about your home network."  Doesn't matter what
they have, what matters is how they answer, if that makes any sense.
I've got a mess of dissimilar systems talking and playing nice together
- Samba running over here, that one running a print server, file server
on the raid array over there, a couple SGIs running as app servers,
even a windows VMWare instance running on a linux box (which I can
display to the Mac on my desk).  Doesn't hurt to show some sort of
interesting setup as an example of "I can make these things work
together".

>  Within 6 months I was asked to deal with some
> production HP machines

That'll happen when you're doing good work...

> The punch line?  Some of the folks in the team interview I went thru who
> nixed me due to no HP experience - you guessed it - were the
> unresponsive folks whose boss I had to go to.

Heh.  It's nice when a plan comes together.

Dave

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Dave Hinz wrote:
<snip> 
>
> I'm a German/Norwegian/Danish-blooded guy from Wisconsin.  100+ at 90%
> humidity sucks no matter where you are, with all that northern european
> blood.

Couldn't resist - I am half Dutch/Irish/Eurosomthing and half Lebonese
who hails from the Twin Cities.  So, you see, the confusion is built in!

See, it is all in appreciating the difference between 99% humidity and
90% humidity.  I kid you not, you can go jogging and be soaked on your
front - dry on your back - because you are smacking into the moisture in
the air.  Nope.  Don't miss it one bit.
>
<snip>
> Good reputation to have.  Easier if you're following someone who was
> incompetant and left lots of easy targets to fix.

Should have said right off that I don't claim to be a guru.  Absolutely
chaulk up my reputation to the poor skills of others.  Seems though,
every place I have stepped into I have been able to improve things.

Still, I have had occasion to work with serious wizzards.  They are scary.

>
<snip> 
>
> There ya go.  One of my favorite questions to ask someone in an
> interview is: "Tell me about your home network."  Doesn't matter what
> they have, what matters is how they answer, if that makes any sense.
> I've got a mess of dissimilar systems talking and playing nice together
> - Samba running over here, that one running a print server, file server
>   on the raid array over there, a couple SGIs running as app servers,
> even a windows VMWare instance running on a linux box (which I can
> display to the Mac on my desk).  Doesn't hurt to show some sort of
> interesting setup as an example of "I can make these things work
> together".

Aside from the friendly banter, this is a really good point to make in a
thread about *nix employment.  Caught more than one person like a deer
in headlights when we would ask about *nix/Linux experience and the
person would say 'I have really wanted to play with Linux' and I would
ask 'what stopped you?'.  With Linux and BSD variants so available for
the common wintel platform and used *nix workstations for a couple of
hundred bucks on Ebay - anyone with any serious interest can have access
to more than one flavor.  Very good indicator of the interest level of
the applicant.

And for some final friendly banter - I was pretty amazed when I
discovered that the rather pricey cisco equipment at work required one
to always hand set ports with AIX boxes on them to 100/full duplex since
they would never auto negotiate correctly  - and the no name cheapo
switch at home would auto negotiate just fine every time.

8-)

Cheers

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On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 14:39:43 -0700, Timothy J. Bogart <tbogart@frii.net> wrote:
> Dave Hinz wrote:
 
[vbcol=seagreen]
> Couldn't resist - I am half Dutch/Irish/Eurosomthing and half Lebonese
> who hails from the Twin Cities.  So, you see, the confusion is built in!

I can see how that could get culturally confusing ;)

> See, it is all in appreciating the difference between 99% humidity and
> 90% humidity.  I kid you not, you can go jogging and be soaked on your
> front - dry on your back - because you are smacking into the moisture in
> the air.  Nope.  Don't miss it one bit.

Ooof.
 
[vbcol=seagreen]
> Should have said right off that I don't claim to be a guru.

Good.  "Guru" isn't a title that should ever be claimed; it's assigned.
"Wizard", maybe.  Guru?  If someone claims to be one, run away.

> Absolutely
> chaulk up my reputation to the poor skills of others.  Seems though,
> every place I have stepped into I have been able to improve things.

There's always easy targets.  The trick, I think, is to fix those first,
build up reputational points (whatever you want to call it), and then
use that leverage to get more risky things implemented.  "Hey, have I
steered you wrong yet?" kind of thing.  Gotta have a track record on
which to make that sort of statement.

> Still, I have had occasion to work with serious wizzards.  They are scary.

Yeah, I know a couple guys that I wish I could work with again.  Lately
it's been more being the mentor than being mentored, which is fine in
it's own way.  I tend to ask a lot of clarifying questions, get people
focused on what they want to do, rather than how to do something.
Strategy first, _then_ tactics.
 
[vbcol=seagreen]
> Aside from the friendly banter, this is a really good point to make in a
> thread about *nix employment.

Well, yeah.  Their reaction also tells you a lot about the personality
and how they can respond to a social situation in that work context.
It's not a typical interview question, I don't think, so it's no the
cliche' "what are your strengths/weaknesses" thing that everyone seems
to have a pat answer figured out for.

> Caught more than one person like a deer
> in headlights when we would ask about *nix/Linux experience and the
> person would say 'I have really wanted to play with Linux' and I would
> ask 'what stopped you?'.

Nice.

> With Linux and BSD variants so available for
> the common wintel platform and used *nix workstations for a couple of
> hundred bucks on Ebay - anyone with any serious interest can have access
> to more than one flavor.  Very good indicator of the interest level of
> the applicant.

Absolutely.  And don't try to bluff, because I don't ask questions I
don't know the answers to already...

> And for some final friendly banter - I was pretty amazed when I
> discovered that the rather pricey cisco equipment at work required one
> to always hand set ports with AIX boxes on them to 100/full duplex since
> they would never auto negotiate correctly  -

Yeah, well, autonegotiation of speed and duplex has always sucked, on
all hardware.  Sun, HP-UX, SGI, Cisco, Alcatel - doesn't matter.  Want
it pegged to 100/Full?  Do it by hand, it's the only way to be sure.
Easy enough to recognize when it goes wrong, but still damned annoying
to get bit by it yet again.

> and the no name cheapo
> switch at home would auto negotiate just fine every time.

Heh.  Then again, it doesn't have 100 servers and 400 clients hanging
off of it...

Interviewing is interesting -from both sides of the discussion.

Dave Hinz

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