Are there *any* real UNIX jobs left?

I have switched positions a couple of times over the last few years,
and it seems that everyone wants a UNIX person to work from a Windows
box.  WTF?  I use UNIX!  Do these jobs even exist anymore?  It seems
like I went to work for an all UNIX shop, and stayed there so long that
the rules seemed to have changed.

I live near Cincinnati Ohio, and have not been able to find anything
that is UNIX only.  Linux is fine, but previous jobs I had a Solaris
desktop, as well as a BSD desktop for playing.


Just wanted to get a thread going to see if anyone else has noticed
this oddity.

To me, they would *never* ask a Windows user to work from a UNIX
workstation, so why is the opposite true?

If you know of a all UNIX environment that likes guys who work their
tails off.  Send em my way please 

[ Post a follow-up to this message ]

Jesse Charbneau <groups@thecharbneaus.com> wrote:
> Are there *any* real UNIX jobs left?

There seem to be plenty in New York...


> I have switched positions a couple of times over the last few years,
> and it seems that everyone wants a UNIX person to work from a Windows
> box.  WTF?  I use UNIX!

..with the caveats that:

1.  Yes, lots of places expect you to use a Windows desktop because of
"corporate policy" or some crap like that.  Oddly enough, "actually
getting work done" never seems to enter into this policy; this is the
nature of bureaucracy.  I think the focus on Windows has something to do
with the fact that the _business_ people are more used to Windows, so
when it comes time to make decisions and write policies, that's what
they go with.  My usual response to this kind of thing is to look them
in the eye and say, "I _am_ going to put Linux on this thing, and I will
continue to do my work that way.  If you regard that as a firing
offense, so be it; I wouldn't want to work at someplace so arbitrary
anyway.  If you don't regard it as a firing offense, please leave me
alone to do real work."  So far they have all backed down.  The real
nuisance comes when they need you to run some oddball program that only
runs under Windows.

2. There are a lot of job openings out there that look like this:
"Needed: Unix Administrator.  Must also have 5-7 years cisco IOS
experience, security certification, C, C++, Java.  Must have strong
Windows 2003 experience with Active Directory and 3-5 years Visual
Basic."  Sometimes I would love to be a fly on the wall at these places,
just to see if they actually get any responses matching what they're
asking for, and what they offer in pay.  And how long an appropriate
candidate would laugh at their offer, assuming they actually find one.
Then again, I have actually worked at one company where the Unix team
wrote up a nice job description, and HR, on their own initiative, added
"Must have Microsoft Word and Microsoft Project skills", without telling
us!  Gee, no wonder we didn't get too many good candidates...

--
Oh to have a lodge in some vast wilderness.  Where rumors of oppression
and deceit, of unsuccessful and successful wars may never reach me
anymore.
-- William Cowper

[ Post a follow-up to this message ]

On 20 Jul 2006 13:33:43 -0700, Jesse Charbneau <groups@thecharbneaus.com> wrote:
> Are there *any* real UNIX jobs left?

You bet.

> I have switched positions a couple of times over the last few years,
> and it seems that everyone wants a UNIX person to work from a Windows
> box.  WTF?  I use UNIX!

Why would _that_ matter?  Sure, it's nice to have a X11 desktop of some
sort to work from, but who cares what your desktop system is?

That said, your employer shouldn't have a problem with you using
whatever you want for your desktop as long as you can get to all the
stuff you need to get to.  If they won't let you, upgrade to a better
employer.  If they don't at least let you keep a Ultra-60 on your desk
or something for sandbox and whatever purposes, it does truly slow you
down.

> Do these jobs even exist anymore?  It seems
> like I went to work for an all UNIX shop, and stayed there so long that
> the rules seemed to have changed.

Well, Windows _is_ here and will be for the forseeable future.  So from
time to time you're going to have to deal with it.  Samba, or print
server integrations, or whatever the  heck - it's not so bad, just hold
your nose and wash your hands good when you're done.

> I live near Cincinnati Ohio, and have not been able to find anything
> that is UNIX only.  Linux is fine, but previous jobs I had a Solaris
> desktop, as well as a BSD desktop for playing.

I've made a point of asking specifically that kind of question in
interviews.  "Any problem if I keep a sparc box under my desk for a
sandbox?"

> Just wanted to get a thread going to see if anyone else has noticed
> this oddity.
> To me, they would *never* ask a Windows user to work from a UNIX
> workstation, so why is the opposite true?

It's a practical way to get _something_ on your desk.  In an ideal
world, they'll let you reload it with Linux or Solaris X86 or whatever.
In a less ideal world you just use it for email and calendar and do all
your real work from the _other_ box.  For years I've run a Linux OS as
my main desktop, with the corporate build of Windows (at 2 different
places now) in a VMWare instance running in that linux system.  A bit of
tweaking to the HAL and windows drivers, and it doesn't even know it's
not running native, or that it's sharing the box.  Might be a good
compromise if they're open to that.

> If you know of a all UNIX environment that likes guys who work their
> tails off.  Send em my way please 

Sometimes you just need to be flexible.  If they can meet you partway,
it's a win for both.

[ Post a follow-up to this message ]

My primary platform is Unix also. I talked to my Group Leader before
since he wanted
to work on Windows XP, 2000, server 2003. Very few people would ask
Windowners to
work on Unix, but a lot of people expect Unixer to work on windows. And
I got some input from those who expect Unixer to work Windows. The
answer is if you are an Unixer
you don't have problem with learning Windows, but not vice versa.

True or not, that leave people to judge it. I don't have comment on
that. Personally,
I like Unix very much.

Please don't quote me. Even though I an Unixer, I have never say
something like
that.



Jesse Charbneau wrote:
> Are there *any* real UNIX jobs left?
>
> I have switched positions a couple of times over the last few years,
> and it seems that everyone wants a UNIX person to work from a Windows
> box.  WTF?  I use UNIX!  Do these jobs even exist anymore?  It seems
> like I went to work for an all UNIX shop, and stayed there so long that
> the rules seemed to have changed.
>
> I live near Cincinnati Ohio, and have not been able to find anything
> that is UNIX only.  Linux is fine, but previous jobs I had a Solaris
> desktop, as well as a BSD desktop for playing.
>
>
> Just wanted to get a thread going to see if anyone else has noticed
> this oddity.
>
> To me, they would *never* ask a Windows user to work from a UNIX
> workstation, so why is the opposite true?
>
> If you know of a all UNIX environment that likes guys who work their
> tails off.  Send em my way please 

[ Post a follow-up to this message ]

In comp.unix.admin Jeremiah DeWitt Weiner <jdw@panix.com>:
> Jesse Charbneau <groups@thecharbneaus.com> wrote: 
[vbcol=seagreen]
>        There seem to be plenty in New York...

 

Sure:

X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT
[vbcol=seagreen]
>        ...with the caveats that:

> 1.  Yes, lots of places expect you to use a Windows desktop because of
> "corporate policy" or some crap like that.  Oddly enough, "actually
> getting work done" never seems to enter into this policy; this is the
> nature of bureaucracy.  I think the focus on Windows has something to do
> with the fact that the _business_ people are more used to Windows, so
> when it comes time to make decisions and write policies, that's what
> they go with.  My usual response to this kind of thing is to look them
> in the eye and say, "I _am_ going to put Linux on this thing, and I will
> continue to do my work that way.  If you regard that as a firing
> offense, so be it; I wouldn't want to work at someplace so arbitrary
> anyway.  If you don't regard it as a firing offense, please leave me
> alone to do real work."  So far they have all backed down.  The real
> nuisance comes when they need you to run some oddball program that only
> runs under Windows.

Usually ask during some job interview if there would be any
problem running linux on my desktop. Never any problems.

> 2. There are a lot of job openings out there that look like this:
> "Needed: Unix Administrator.  Must also have 5-7 years cisco IOS
> experience, security certification, C, C++, Java.  Must have strong
> Windows 2003 experience with Active Directory and 3-5 years Visual
> Basic."  Sometimes I would love to be a fly on the wall at these places,
> just to see if they actually get any responses matching what they're
> asking for, and what they offer in pay.  And how long an appropriate
> candidate would laugh at their offer, assuming they actually find one.

Seem you forgot about the university degree, multiple vendor
certs in various areas, at least 5 years experience in foreign
countries and of course not older then 26! Working happily 60-80
hours weekly for a (minimal) 40h salary.

Of course this is just the dream candidate, which doesn't exist in
reality. If you have 25% of the requested "features" you might
get the job. If you really want it at all? ;-)

> Then again, I have actually worked at one company where the Unix team
> wrote up a nice job description, and HR, on their own initiative, added
> "Must have Microsoft Word and Microsoft Project skills", without telling
> us!  Gee, no wonder we didn't get too many good candidates...

LOL...Real professionals you have to admit, perhaps they just
thought you had forgotten about those "most" important skills,
though they could have added excel and powerpoint... ;-)

--
Michael Heiming (X-PGP-Sig > GPG-Key ID: EDD27B94)
mail: echo zvpunry@urvzvat.qr | PERL -pe 'y/a-z/n-za-m/'
#bofh excuse 161: monitor VLF leakage

[ Post a follow-up to this message ]

Michael Heiming wrote:
> In comp.unix.admin Jeremiah DeWitt Weiner <jdw@panix.com>: 
> 
>
> 
>
> Sure:
>
> X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT
>
Yep.  I was at work.  Isn't that special? ;)  Try these headers.. 
 
> 
>
> Usually ask during some job interview if there would be any
> problem running linux on my desktop. Never any problems.
>
And it didn't seem to be an issue during the interview.  The person I
replaced used a MAC and nobody (supposedly) blinked an eye.  I mention
running Linux and its like I said a bad word.....

I do have a Linux box, (grafted), but the laptop I was given runs
Windows and of course the vpn is Windows only.  No luck on the mac
front either as they won't purchase a license for the macs.....
 
>
> Seem you forgot about the university degree, multiple vendor
> certs in various areas, at least 5 years experience in foreign
> countries and of course not older then 26! Working happily 60-80
> hours weekly for a (minimal) 40h salary.
No doubts here.  I recently applied for a "Software Engineer" position,
and UNIX/Linux/C was high on the list, but the description listed a
Electrical Engineer degree with a emphasis in software.  I talked to a
friend who has exactly that and he suspected I was more qualified than
he was.  Go figure.  (I don't have a CS/EE degree).

>
> Of course this is just the dream candidate, which doesn't exist in
> reality. If you have 25% of the requested "features" you might
> get the job. If you really want it at all? ;-)
> 
>
> LOL...Real professionals you have to admit, perhaps they just
> thought you had forgotten about those "most" important skills,
> though they could have added excel and powerpoint... ;-)
Yep.  Sure does help out the novice visualize things, never mind just
working the systems will get them that, and personally, I have never
had any issues when demonstrating things to other UNIX folk, oh,
wait....they have never needed me to do a presentation.  ;)

I am actually at the point of just forgetting corp america altogether.
Seems most places concentrate on mediocrity rather than quality of
service, which is really astonishing.  The place I work at spends
millions in outsourcing what a handful of UNIX admins could accomplish
with better results, and faster turn around.

Oh, and "what does that matter?"  (For the first reply.)

Windows to me seems like my daughters fascination with Playdough, sure,
it's very pretty, but trying to actually do anything with it makes it
crumble fast.

Cygwin is a nice complement for a Windows system, but so far, it seems
better in a pinch than anything else.  Definitely not comparable to
running a full blown UNIX box.

[ Post a follow-up to this message ]

In comp.unix.admin Jesse Charbneau <groups@thecharbneaus.com>:

> Michael Heiming wrote: 
[vbcol=seagreen] 
[vbcol=seagreen] 
[vbcol=seagreen] 
[vbcol=seagreen] 
[vbcol=seagreen]
> Yep.  I was at work.  Isn't that special? ;)  Try these headers.. 

Don't give that much about headers, just from time to time take a
look and wonder quite often...

However your nntp software seems broken, it quotes empty lines?
Fixed up the mess.

[ forced to use windoze at work? ]
 
[vbcol=seagreen]
> And it didn't seem to be an issue during the interview.  The person I
> replaced used a MAC and nobody (supposedly) blinked an eye.  I mention
> running Linux and its like I said a bad word.....

> I do have a Linux box, (grafted), but the laptop I was given runs
> Windows and of course the vpn is Windows only.  No luck on the mac
> front either as they won't purchase a license for the macs.....

Corporate desktops/laptops tend to come pre installed with doze.
However, the mistake can be easily adjusted in a few minutes. ;-)

[..]
 
[vbcol=seagreen] 
[vbcol=seagreen]
> Yep.  Sure does help out the novice visualize things, never mind just
> working the systems will get them that, and personally, I have never
> had any issues when demonstrating things to other UNIX folk, oh,
> wait....they have never needed me to do a presentation.  ;)

OO works as nice and can create a PDF out of any application.

> I am actually at the point of just forgetting corp america altogether.

Don't bother, such trends come over here faster then in the past.

> Seems most places concentrate on mediocrity rather than quality of
> service, which is really astonishing.  The place I work at spends
> millions in outsourcing what a handful of UNIX admins could accomplish
> with better results, and faster turn around.

Perhaps, but they just don't produce colorful powerpoint slides,
which is what management wants to see...

> Oh, and "what does that matter?"  (For the first reply.)

> Windows to me seems like my daughters fascination with Playdough, sure,
> it's very pretty, but trying to actually do anything with it makes it
> crumble fast.

It looks pretty ugly to me in comparison with a full fledged KDE
desktop and is totally useless for real work. For example how
would you go about making automated some menu out of
~/.ssh/known_hosts to ease up login? Presuming you tend to work
on a large amount of systems.

> Cygwin is a nice complement for a Windows system, but so far, it seems
> better in a pinch than anything else.  Definitely not comparable to
> running a full blown UNIX box.

You just can't be productive with doze, I suspect at least 30-40%
lesser productivity then a Linux desktop would offer if not more.

Sure there are quite a few add ons that can make your life easier,
but the time to just install them all does take longer then
simply installing some OS that has all the stuff you need per
default and just lets you work without constantly annoying you.

--
Michael Heiming (X-PGP-Sig > GPG-Key ID: EDD27B94)
mail: echo zvpunry@urvzvat.qr | PERL -pe 'y/a-z/n-za-m/'
#bofh excuse 121: halon system went off and killed the
operators.

[ Post a follow-up to this message ]

Jesse Charbneau wrote:
>
> Are there *any* real UNIX jobs left?

Lots.

> I have switched positions a couple of times over the last few years,
> and it seems that everyone wants a UNIX person to work from a Windows
> box.  WTF?  I use UNIX!

One of the features of working in UNIX is folks generally learn
to use the right tool for the job.

> To me, they would *never* ask a Windows user to work from a UNIX
> workstation, so why is the opposite true?

And in general UNIX's place has been in the data center.  Use the
data center server in the data center, the end user display on the
desk.  Not a difficult equation.

Can UNIX be used as an end user station?  Sure.  BTDT got the
teeshirt.  It was worth the effort getting it set-up.  Heck, I even
prefer the way I can set up X with autofocus.  But was UNIX
intended as an end-user station?  Not particularly.

Deal is, companies want employees who will use the right tool
for the job and not make it into a religious stance.  Which, when
you think about it, was the UNIX philosophy all along.

If you want to load Linux on your desktop, lots of places will
let you do that.  But if you think it's somehow neccessary ...

[ Post a follow-up to this message ]

Doug Freyburger wrote:
> Jesse Charbneau wrote: 
>
> Lots.
> 
>
> One of the features of working in UNIX is folks generally learn
> to use the right tool for the job.
And since when has WIndows ever been the right tool for the job, in
respect to an admin?  Personally, I had a windows box for years, but
mainly for testing to see what the end users would see.  I guess if you
admin Windows boxes, maybe this could be the case, but even then, I
prefer a X11 desktop with rdesktop for getting into the Windows pc's.

> 
>
> And in general UNIX's place has been in the data center.  Use the
> data center server in the data center, the end user display on the
> desk.  Not a difficult equation.
Not my fault most people prefer to be ignorant of how a computer works.
Personally, if people are so lame that they can't learn, then maybe
they should have a typewriter and hard copy.

>
> Can UNIX be used as an end user station?  Sure.  BTDT got the
> teeshirt.  It was worth the effort getting it set-up.  Heck, I even
> prefer the way I can set up X with autofocus.  But was UNIX
> intended as an end-user station?  Not particularly.
I never claimed it was, but it has typically been exactly what I need
in order to do my job efficiently.

>
> Deal is, companies want employees who will use the right tool
> for the job and not make it into a religious stance.  Which, when
> you think about it, was the UNIX philosophy all along.
Not a religious stance, a practical stance.  Windows limits my ability
to my *job*.  Yes, UNIX philosophy dictates the right tool for the
right job (or is that life), but telling an admin/engineer that they
*have* to use Windows to do their job seems kind of like telling a
plumber to fix your sink without using a wrench.

>
> If you want to load Linux on your desktop, lots of places will
> let you do that.  But if you think it's somehow neccessary ...
If you think _you_ are more productive with WIndows, then by all means,
have at.  But having lived on a X11/UNIX box for years, I find it
completely limiting to work from a windows box.  I don't need a bunch
of bells and whistles; I need an xterm, xbiff and a couple of other
utilities.  Thats it!  No endless sea of menus hindering my
performance.

[ Post a follow-up to this message ]

On 26 Jul 2006 05:08:05 -0700, Jesse Charbneau <groups@thecharbneaus.com> wrote:
>
> Doug Freyburger wrote: 
[vbcol=seagreen]
> And since when has WIndows ever been the right tool for the job, in
> respect to an admin?  Personally, I had a windows box for years, but
> mainly for testing to see what the end users would see.  I guess if you
> admin Windows boxes, maybe this could be the case, but even then, I
> prefer a X11 desktop with rdesktop for getting into the Windows pc's.

I do my admin work via ssh nearly all the time, and there's plenty of
ssh clients for 'doze.  Some of 'em are even free.
 
[vbcol=seagreen]
> Not my fault most people prefer to be ignorant of how a computer works.
>  Personally, if people are so lame that they can't learn, then maybe
> they should have a typewriter and hard copy.

Just so you know, taking an attitude with people you're asking questions
of is rarely a recipe for success.  And what does having a 'doze box on
your desk have to do with someone being "ignorant of how a computer
works"?
 
[vbcol=seagreen]
> I never claimed it was, but it has typically been exactly what I need
> in order to do my job efficiently.

So download vmware player and run your linux or unix instance as an app
in windows.  Or go with a native linux install and run the corporate
build of windows in a vm.  I've done both, I prefer the latter.
 
[vbcol=seagreen]
> Not a religious stance, a practical stance.  Windows limits my ability
> to my *job*.

I'm sorry but if it does, then you are only showing your own ignorance
while shouting about that of others.

> Yes, UNIX philosophy dictates the right tool for the
> right job (or is that life), but telling an admin/engineer that they
> *have* to use Windows to do their job seems kind of like telling a
> plumber to fix your sink without using a wrench.

If you can't get your job done from a windows box, I wonder what your
job is.  Perhaps if you'd tell us what you can't do we might have a
solution for that problem.  Several alternatives have already been
mentioned by me and others on that specific subject.
 
[vbcol=seagreen]
> If you think _you_ are more productive with WIndows, then by all means,
> have at.  But having lived on a X11/UNIX box for years, I find it
> completely limiting to work from a windows box.  I don't need a bunch
> of bells and whistles; I need an xterm, xbiff and a couple of other
> utilities.  Thats it!  No endless sea of menus hindering my
> performance.

Are you familiar with "x over ssh"?

[ Post a follow-up to this message ]