Denis Barbier <barbier@linuxfr.org> wrote:
>
> KDE control center in Debian displays Taiwanese flag, so you should
> certainly resign from Debian and join Fedora.  Well I did not check
> if Fedora still censors it, but as Red Hat did, there is little
> chance that this has changed.

So be it.

Free software extremists I can live with.  But this is too much.
I will resign from this project in two weeks time.

In the mean, please send me offers to maintain my packages in *private*.
Any packages which are not claimed for in two weeks time will be orphaned
and th usual rules shall apply.
--
Debian GNU/Linux 3.0 is out! ( http://www.debian.org/ )
Email:  Herbert Xu ~{PmV>HI~} <herbert@gondor.apana.org.au>
Home Page: http://gondor.apana.org.au/~herbert/
PGP Key: http://gondor.apana.org.au/~herbert/pubkey.txt


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On Wed, May 05, 2004 at 08:07:55AM +1000, Herbert Xu wrote:
>Denis Barbier <barbier@linuxfr.org> wrote: 
>
>So be it.
>
>Free software extremists I can live with.  But this is too much.

This message starts a new thread and I cannot see clearly the reason
for your reaction.

>I will resign from this project in two weeks time.

Please reconsider your decision. It will be very unfortunate to see you
leaving the project.

>In the mean, please send me offers to maintain my packages in *private*.
>Any packages which are not claimed for in two weeks time will be orphaned
>and th usual rules shall apply.

Anibal Monsalve Salazar
--
.''`.  Debian GNU/Linux      | Building 28C
: :' :  Free Operating System | Monash university VIC 3800, Australia
`. `'   http://debian.org/    | http://www-personal.monash.edu/~anibal/
`-                          |

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On Wed, May 05, 2004 at 09:34:41AM +1000, Anibal Monsalve Salazar wrote:
> On Wed, May 05, 2004 at 08:07:55AM +1000, Herbert Xu wrote: 
>
> This message starts a new thread and I cannot see clearly the reason
> for your reaction.

This thread appears to start on debian-boot here:

http://lists.debian.org/debian-boot...5/msg00205.html

--
Jamin W. Collins

"Never underestimate the power of very stupid people in large groups."
-- John Kenneth Galbraith


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On Wed, May 05, 2004 at 08:07:55AM +1000, Herbert Xu wrote:
> Denis Barbier <barbier@linuxfr.org> wrote: 

WTF have you done translators? You've converted a non-issue (a translation)
into a political statement (Taiwan independent?) into a bigger problem for
Debian (kernel maintenance). You're not the only one to blame here (other
translators at debian-boot are to blame for this issue) but you've allowed
things to get out of hand.

So, please, Christian, explain this:
[vbcol=seagreen]
> Because, imho, this is a case where we plan to deviate from a
> standard. We have strong arguments for doing this, most of them being
> motivated by the Debian Social Contract (make our possible to benefit
> our users), and I think they will be even stronger if they are
> accepted to Debian Technical Comittee.
[http://lists.debian.org/debian-boot...5/msg00290.html]

What _technical_ advantage to our users does this deviation from the 
standard introduce? I just don't see it. Feel free to ask for a change in 
the standard, if needed be, not in the name of the Debian project (unless 
you are empowered somehow to do so).

Last time I looked, Debian did not had any political bias. And now it shows 
up, hurting our ability to do technical work.

Nice job.

Javier

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Quoting Javier Fernández-Sanguino Peña (jfs@computer.org):

> WTF have you done translators? You've converted a non-issue (a translation
)
> into a political statement (Taiwan independent?) into a bigger problem for
> Debian (kernel maintenance). You're not the only one to blame here (other
> translators at debian-boot are to blame for this issue) but you've allowed
> things to get out of hand.

I'm a bit surprised by your vision of these things. It appears that
you see this problem as coming from translators.

Up to now, the issue of the Taiwan country name has the following
background, to my understanding:

-d-i uses iso-codes for country names and translations
-iso-codes uses ISO-3166 as a reference
-one entry in ISO-3166 appears to hurt the sensitivity of some Debian
users and contributors
-we (everyone_: d-i team, Chinese people, other DD's) try to explore
all possible solutions for keeping both our commitment to standards
and our users happy
-possible solutions are currently explored
-Herbert announces he want to resign because during discussions the
possibility of replacing the offending name has been mentioned

As I already wrote in another mail in this thread (the mail was less
highly crossposted than this one, especially not in -devel), I think
this reaction is way too important and far too early.

I do not see any specific actions from translators for ending in this
situation. It mostly looks like overreacting to something that even
DID NOT HAPPEN is to be blamed here.

> So, please, Christian, explain this:
> 
> [http://lists.debian.org/debian-boot...5/msg00290.html]
>
> What _technical_ advantage to our users does this deviation from the
> standard introduce? I just don't see it. Feel free to ask for a change in

No technical advantage, of course. My feeling is that deliberately
deviating from a standard has to get some validation somewhere. I do
not feel authorized (or Alastair who is the iso-codes package
maintainer) to do this, if I decide to do so (WHICH NEITHER I NOR
ALASTAIR DID....look at fr.po for the iso_3166 list), only based on my
own opinion.

If you think the Technical Commitee is inappropriate for this, I may
understand. But then, we will have to find some validation structure.

> the standard, if needed be, not in the name of the Debian project (unless
> you are empowered somehow to do so).

This is part of the current actions, see the thread. A proposal for
specifically asking the ISO-3166-MA on this issue has been made,
because it seems to appear that they aren't clear on this topic.

>
> Last time I looked, Debian did not had any political bias. And now it show
s
> up, hurting our ability to do technical work.
>
> Nice job.

I absolutely do not appreciate being accused of bringing a political
bias on this topic. If you look back, you won't see any such action
from myself for this. A non technical issue has been raised by some of
our users and we're trying to find a possible solution for it. I do
have my own opinion and I have made my possible for not pushing it
behind to much, that's all.

All this involves some discussion between people who feel
concerned. This discussion is still happening. No conlusion has been
made yet and I'm not even sure that there is a solution which will
satisfy everyone.

So, I have no idea of which "nice job" we (and specifically myself)
have made.




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Please can we focus on how to de-escalate this issue?

Herbert, why precisely are you resigning? is it because,
as was pointed out elsewhere, Debian includes flags for Taiwan,
implicitly supporting Taiwanese independence? Thank you
for giving two weeks notice; hopefully we can use this to
come up with a solution.

As was pointed out elsewhere on the list, there are a bunch of
programs that include flags, and lists of countries, within
Debian. This could be refactored into a single collection
(in a single directory).

I think we should look at POSIX locales as a model: it is
basically impossible to come up with a set of countries / territories that d
oes
not offend someone. In the POSIX locales model, they managed to sidestep thi
s
issue by _not_ generating a list of territories, but creating a model where
users
could add their own with 'localeconf'. While we ship a bunch of
locales in the locales package, we don't claim that they are
definitive and users can change them.

I created the iso-codes package to refactor the multiple lists of countries,
languages and their translations present in
GNU/Linux, to avoid wasting space and add consistentcy. Unfortunately the ap
proach
taken does create a
list which purports to be definitive, and causes this conflict.

I am willing to reconsider how to do this. Possible solutions
include:
- Generating any list of countries/languages from the installed
locales
- refactoring programs to use flags in, eg. /usr/share/flags
which a user can edit (either by hand or installing
a package (eg. elbonian-independence.deb, complete
with Elbonian locale and flag and translations ...)

This doesn't solve the debian-installer list problem; hopefully
the countrychooser (choose language then country) compromise
there will suffice.

All constructive suggestions welcome, (though please don't
make any such work another gating issue for Sarge :-)

Regards,
Alastair McKinstry


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On Wed, May 05, 2004 at 08:07:55AM +1000, Herbert Xu wrote:
> Free software extremists I can live with.  But this is too much.
> I will resign from this project in two weeks time.
[earlier quote:]
> If this is your attitude, then I shall resign this project.  I do not
> wish to be associated with people who're actively working towards the
> independence of Taiwan.

After everything, Xu quits Debian because of *nationalism*!
Excuse me now as I go away and laugh my XXX off.

--
2. That which causes joy or happiness.


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On  5.V.2004 at 11:37 (+0200) Josip Rodin wrote:
>
> After everything, Xu quits Debian because of *nationalism*!
> Excuse me now as I go away and laugh my XXX off.

Probably things are more complicated than they seam to be.  AFAIK
there are many people (a majority?) in Taiwan that do not want
independence from China (of course they want independence from Peoples
Republic of China).  Both in P.R.of China and Taiwan R.O.C there are
many people that do not want se see the breakage irreversible.  On the
other hand after so many years, naturaly in Taiwan there are people
that want their own independent country forever.  I am not sure
whether people that belong to "stable" nations and states from ages
can understand how sore can be the present processes in Taiwan for the
people in the both parts of China.

So it is probably not just a nationalism (in the way I understand this
word) but a matter of the real life.

I am not sure if Debian is able to find a compromise but it seams to
me that the following statement is acceptable for the people in Taiwan
and less unacceptable for the people in P.R. of China: "Taiwan is part
of China, but it is not part of P.R. of China."  Not sure if it is
possible to find a short teritory name with this semantics.

By the way the name of Hong Kong in debian-installer is "Hong Kong"
and nobody objected that this means that Hong Kong is independent from
China.  Why it should be different with Taiwan?

Anton Zinoviev


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Am Mit, 2004-05-05 um 11.37 schrieb Josip Rodin:
> On Wed, May 05, 2004 at 08:07:55AM +1000, Herbert Xu wrote: 
> [earlier quote:] 
>
> After everything, Xu quits Debian because of *nationalism*!

Is it necessary at all, to use names of political systems like names of
states? Would it not be better, to use unpolitical names of geological
formations eg. "Island Taiwan"?
People keep migrating and political systems come and go. Names of states
and citys are changing throughout the world. Names of islands, mountains
and rivers will stay for much longer time periods.
I love the work, Herbert has done and I would miss him.

Hugo






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On Wed, May 05, 2004 at 01:57:21PM +0200, Hugo Wau wrote:
> Am Mit, 2004-05-05 um 11.37 schrieb Josip Rodin: 
[vbcol=seagreen] 
[vbcol=seagreen]
> Is it necessary at all, to use names of political systems like names of
> states? Would it not be better, to use unpolitical names of geological
> formations eg. "Island Taiwan"? 
> People keep migrating and political systems come and go. Names of states
> and citys are changing throughout the world. Names of islands, mountains
> and rivers will stay for much longer time periods.
> I love the work, Herbert has done and I would miss him.

The name people are asking to have listed in the Debian installer is
"Taiwan".  Please explain how this is a politically-charged name.

-- 
Steve Langasek
postmodern programmer

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