Okay:

Thats it. . . On Thursday and Friday of last week I got two Windows 2003
servers up and running one of them became a RADIUS server and I was even
able to start a PEAP-CHAP authentication mechanism, then I left on Friday
afternoon and found that my wife had gone out and gotten me a copy of the
latest Fedora 2 release on DVD.

Cool way to spend a weekend?

My God, I feel like I just went ten rounds with Mike Tyson, holy moly!  No
matter what, no matter how enigmatic the postings and help articles, I was
unable to get my wireless nic to work.  Okay, so its a laptop and I had
issues with the whole ACPI thing.  So now I just dumped that laptop in favor
of the Penguin, that is to say, Mandrake and now I am having issues with him
as well.

I want to get into this stuff, I truly do and I realize its an academic
pursuit first and foremost.  In terms of Fedora 2, I think I will toy with
it on a stand alone server and see what it can do as a web server, file
server, mail server or what have you.  I think that one of the weakest
points of Fedora 2 is the whole wireless thing, but then again, I realize
its sort of a new release for the community.

In terms of Redhat in general, I have never had much luck with it and have
always preferred Mandrake, however, thats about as much experience as I have
with them.

Okay, I want to jump in but am really scared of getting drowned, mostly in
my own frustrations.  I guess that the best thing to do is to start
attending Linux group meetings in my area.

Ho hum, I am frustrated and I figured the penguin proper would be
friendlier. . .  then again, if you have ever been up close and personal
with a real penguin you will realize that they are rather nasty and
territorial beasts.

God, I want to get into this stuff, I want to conquer this. . .  oh please
wise sages of the Linux world, the Gods of Linux, come down upon me with the
dummies guide to enlightenment!

Frustrated sigh follows . . .

Seriously, for a total, total newbie, what version of Linux is the
friendliest and what, if any, training is there that will start off from A
and go at least to E or F, before my head explodes.

Regards,

Disgruntled Penguin

[ Post a follow-up to this message ]

Patagonia-Brat-Penguin wrote:
> Okay:
>
> Thats it. . . On Thursday and Friday of last week I got two Windows 2003
> servers up and running one of them became a RADIUS server and I was even
> able to start a PEAP-CHAP authentication mechanism, then I left on Friday
> afternoon and found that my wife had gone out and gotten me a copy of the
> latest Fedora 2 release on DVD.

Windows as a server? Yuck.

>
> Cool way to spend a weekend?
>

You should be spending your time shooting whoever told you to put
Windows on those servers ;)

> My God, I feel like I just went ten rounds with Mike Tyson, holy moly!  No
> matter what, no matter how enigmatic the postings and help articles, I was
> unable to get my wireless nic to work.  Okay, so its a laptop and I had
> issues with the whole ACPI thing.  So now I just dumped that laptop in fav
or
> of the Penguin, that is to say, Mandrake and now I am having issues with h
im
> as well.
>
> I want to get into this stuff, I truly do and I realize its an academic
> pursuit first and foremost.  In terms of Fedora 2, I think I will toy with
> it on a stand alone server and see what it can do as a web server, file
> server, mail server or what have you.  I think that one of the weakest
> points of Fedora 2 is the whole wireless thing, but then again, I realize
> its sort of a new release for the community.
>
> In terms of Redhat in general, I have never had much luck with it and have
> always preferred Mandrake, however, thats about as much experience as I ha
ve
> with them.
>
> Okay, I want to jump in but am really scared of getting drowned, mostly in
> my own frustrations.  I guess that the best thing to do is to start
> attending Linux group meetings in my area.
>
> Ho hum, I am frustrated and I figured the penguin proper would be
> friendlier. . .  then again, if you have ever been up close and personal
> with a real penguin you will realize that they are rather nasty and
> territorial beasts.
>
> God, I want to get into this stuff, I want to conquer this. . .  oh please
> wise sages of the Linux world, the Gods of Linux, come down upon me with t
he
> dummies guide to enlightenment!
>
> Frustrated sigh follows . . .
>
> Seriously, for a total, total newbie, what version of Linux is the
> friendliest and what, if any, training is there that will start off from A
> and go at least to E or F, before my head explodes.
>
> Regards,
>
> Disgruntled Penguin
>
>

The best place to start learning Linux is Linux Online's Linux Courses.
If you've never used DOS, it might be slightly harder, but it should be
pretty easy to understand if you aren't familiar with DOS.

Getting Started: http://www.linux.org/lessons/beginner/index.html
Intermediate Course: http://www.linux.org/lessons/interm/index.html

(read both courses, but read at least the second one while running
Linux, so you can do some of the exercises -- it's possible to just read
through the first one and understand it, but the second one requires
some hands-on action)

--
Keith Gable
Lead Programmer of the Ignition Project
http://www.ignition-project.com/
ICBM: 35.540383, -94.988756
*Joshua 1:9 :: The Message:* Haven't I commanded you? Strength! Courage!
Don't be timid; don't get discouraged. GOD, your God, is with you every
step you take.
*Take back the web!* http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/

[ Post a follow-up to this message ]

Keith:

Thanks for the links, learning is my addiction, its the frustration that I
often feel.  Hey, I even went out and got myself the CBT Nuggets Linux
course, actually paid for it where its a series of videos, but what I have a
problem with is, okay, the Linux Kernel, its about the same for all
versions, right? Is that correct, so from there on, its like saying the
foundation of a building is concrete and steel and then, okay, the stuff on
top is the different flavors of linux?

Sorry, I am a big analogy guy and was likely the inventor of the phrase
"Access is the Teller and SQL is the vault", as lame as it is, but I have
heard it said elswhere.

So I will take the lessons, unfortunately, I know DoS, eeww.  In terms of
putting Windows on those servers, hey, I work for a school so the person who
told me to do it has a fancy degree on the wall but knows dipshit total
squat about anything computer related, dont get me started.

On a more serious note, okay, so I embrace the penguin, put on the fedora,
get my XXX in gear, I even got my laptop with Mandrake and the prism54
people to get connected.  Now what, I mean, if I start writing letters on
the machine and say "hey look, I did this with Linux" people are going to be
like, oh yeah, sure, thats nice.

For a virtual newbie who does not to be convinced of the value of Linux,
just needs to overcome the frustration thereof, I think that a good initial
project would be to set up a linux box as a web server, but thats a bit too
easy, but what about getting an access database, or other database of some
type (ergo, what type of database) to sit on one linux server, talk to lets
say an sql server and share data.

I feel like a junkie who just discovered heroin and I find myself intrigued,
fascinated at this academic pursuit.

Lastly, what pitches can I make to absolute non technical school
administrator wanna bees in terms of why we should be using linux or
considering linux for our needs.  They are not going to stick them on
desktops, of that I am sure since they are so gung ho about their freakin
reader rabbit and other crapola programs.

I want to fly, but I know, I need to learn to crawl first, hell, I am still
an embryo sucking on a cord for that matter when it comes to Linux.

Thanks for advice in advance, its the doing of the thing that matters,

Penguini
"Keith Gable" <ziggy@ignition-project.com----.sco.com> wrote in message
news:gaFRc.8636$nx2.6508@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> Patagonia-Brat-Penguin wrote: 
Friday[vbcol=seagreen] 
the[vbcol=seagreen] 
>
> Windows as a server? Yuck.
> 
>
> You should be spending your time shooting whoever told you to put
> Windows on those servers ;)
> 
No[vbcol=seagreen] 
was[vbcol=seagreen] 
favor[vbcol=seagreen] 
him[vbcol=seagreen] 
with[vbcol=seagreen] 
realize[vbcol=seagreen] 
have[vbcol=seagreen] 
have[vbcol=seagreen] 
in[vbcol=seagreen] 
please[vbcol=seagreen] 
the[vbcol=seagreen] 
A[vbcol=seagreen] 
>
> The best place to start learning Linux is Linux Online's Linux Courses.
> If you've never used DOS, it might be slightly harder, but it should be
> pretty easy to understand if you aren't familiar with DOS.
>
> Getting Started: http://www.linux.org/lessons/beginner/index.html
> Intermediate Course: http://www.linux.org/lessons/interm/index.html
>
> (read both courses, but read at least the second one while running
> Linux, so you can do some of the exercises -- it's possible to just read
> through the first one and understand it, but the second one requires
> some hands-on action)
>
> --
> Keith Gable
> Lead Programmer of the Ignition Project
> http://www.ignition-project.com/
> ICBM: 35.540383, -94.988756
> *Joshua 1:9 :: The Message:* Haven't I commanded you? Strength! Courage!
> Don't be timid; don't get discouraged. GOD, your God, is with you every
> step you take.
> *Take back the web!* http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/

[ Post a follow-up to this message ]

Patagonia-Brat-Penguin wrote:

> Keith:
>
> Thanks for the links, learning is my addiction, its the frustration that I
> often feel.  Hey, I even went out and got myself the CBT Nuggets Linux
> course, actually paid for it where its a series of videos, but what I have
 a
> problem with is, okay, the Linux Kernel, its about the same for all
> versions, right? Is that correct, so from there on, its like saying the
> foundation of a building is concrete and steel and then, okay, the stuff o
n
> top is the different flavors of linux?

The easiest way to understand it is that the Linux kernel is the
foundation, and the GNU tools are the walls. Everything else depends on
the distribution. Some distributions have every package imagineable
(well, almost). Others only have the necessary packages. Yet others are
designed to be a simplistic desktop (a few distributions try to
capitalize on it, which isn't a bad thing, but I don't think it's cool
either). Pick the distribution that has the stuff you want.

>
> Sorry, I am a big analogy guy and was likely the inventor of the phrase
> "Access is the Teller and SQL is the vault", as lame as it is, but I have
> heard it said elswhere.
>
> So I will take the lessons, unfortunately, I know DoS, eeww.  In terms of
> putting Windows on those servers, hey, I work for a school so the person w
ho
> told me to do it has a fancy degree on the wall but knows dipshit total
> squat about anything computer related, dont get me started.

DoS => Denial of Service
DOS => Disk Operating System

I don't work for a school, but I go to one, and the tech guy there put
Windows NT4 on a server and is now "migrating" everyone to a domain
system. I know that's just as possible with Samba, but I'm not going to
say anything. If I can figure out how, I might set up one of the labs
(library computer lab probably) to be Linux workstations and have a
Linux server in there somewhere. The idea is a student can login on any
machine and get the same environment (and each student would have an
individual login). If I can pull that off, possibly I can educate the
tech guy on how to do the same thing, and we can convert all the labs to
Linux (except for the labs that depend on Windows [hah, that's funny
right there I don't care who you are :P])

> On a more serious note, okay, so I embrace the penguin, put on the fedora,
> get my XXX in gear, I even got my laptop with Mandrake and the prism54
> people to get connected.  Now what, I mean, if I start writing letters on
> the machine and say "hey look, I did this with Linux" people are going to 
be
> like, oh yeah, sure, thats nice.

It's not that Linux doesn't support WLANs, it's that most WLANs don't
have Open Source drivers and nobody has written a driver for one
(because the specs for the WLAN haven't been released). Give it another
6 months to a year; the WLAN driver scene should be very improved (when
I get done downloading Fedora, I'm going to have driver hell getting my
WLAN working, because it's a rebranded RTL8180L with an external antenna
-- a pain in the XXX)

> For a virtual newbie who does not to be convinced of the value of Linux,
> just needs to overcome the frustration thereof, I think that a good initia
l
> project would be to set up a linux box as a web server, but thats a bit to
o
> easy, but what about getting an access database, or other database of some
> type (ergo, what type of database) to sit on one linux server, talk to let
s
> say an sql server and share data.

It should be fairly easy to setup Apache, MySQL, PHP, and Perl. I don't
consider myself to be an expert on it, but it took me about 30 minutes
to setup a WWW/FTP/SSH/SQL server. Once you start using Linux, you'll
find most of the commands a lot more logical than Windows/DOS commands.

>
> I feel like a junkie who just discovered heroin and I find myself intrigue
d,
> fascinated at this academic pursuit.
>
> Lastly, what pitches can I make to absolute non technical school
> administrator wanna bees in terms of why we should be using linux or
> considering linux for our needs.  They are not going to stick them on
> desktops, of that I am sure since they are so gung ho about their freakin
> reader rabbit and other crapola programs.

If you want them to seriously consider getting them to let you switch to
Linux, make sure you mention the following things:
1) A Linux server costs $0.
2) A Windows server costs $1600.
3) A Linux mail server costs $0.
4) A Windows mail server costs $1500.
5) Linux is more secure than Windows. There are thousands of known
Windows viruses that attack through holes in standard Windows
components. There are only a couple hundred of these for Linux systems.
6) Linux is faster than Windows.
7) A Linux server should almost never need a reboot. A Windows server
will need one once a month or so. The point: Linux is extremely reliable.
8) Linux virus software is $0. Windows server virus software runs $50-$1500.

If you're willing to take your current salary for administering a Linux
server, the TCO (total cost of ownership) will be cheaper for Linux.
Also stress that keeping a Linux server maintained is a lot simpler than
with Windows. Maintaining a Linux server is usually a one-command thing.
With Windows, you have to browse all over the place and right click, and
shift-delete, or have two windows open and move folders. Basically, it
takes less time to administer a Linux server.

>
> I want to fly, but I know, I need to learn to crawl first, hell, I am stil
l
> an embryo sucking on a cord for that matter when it comes to Linux.
>
> Thanks for advice in advance, its the doing of the thing that matters,

If you follow those tutorials completely, they should help you most of
the way to understanding Linux. There's more lessons at the same site,
which may be of use to you.

--
Keith Gable
Lead Programmer of the Ignition Project
http://www.ignition-project.com/
ICBM: 35.540383, -94.988756
*Joshua 1:9 :: The Message:* Haven't I commanded you? Strength! Courage!
Don't be timid; don't get discouraged. GOD, your God, is with you every
step you take.
*Take back the web!* http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/

[ Post a follow-up to this message ]

On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 23:01:47 +0000, Keith Gable wrote:

> I don't work for a school, but I go to one, and the tech guy there put
> Windows NT4 on a server and is now "migrating" everyone to a domain
> system. I know that's just as possible with Samba, but I'm not going to
> say anything. If I can figure out how, I might set up one of the labs
> (library computer lab probably) to be Linux workstations and have a
> Linux server in there somewhere. The idea is a student can login on any
> machine and get the same environment (and each student would have an
> individual login). If I can pull that off, possibly I can educate the
> tech guy on how to do the same thing, and we can convert all the labs to
> Linux (except for the labs that depend on Windows [hah, that's funny
> right there I don't care who you are :P])

NIS on server for centralized authentication.

/home is on the server and shared via NFS.

mount /home from the server on area workstation(s) as an NFS share.

presto! roaming desktop.

Admittedly, there are other ways to skin this cat. I do not know enough
about the pros and cons of this setup to compare other ways to do this.

You can also use Samba to bring in windows clients.

Replace (or just add) "NIS" above with SMB authentication.

Replace (or just add) "NFS" shares with "SMB" shares.

Create an NT login script that automatically mounts users "Home"
directories as H:\ (or whatever:\ ) on windows clients.  Point their
profiles there as well. "NET USE \\blah\homes\ H:" or similar.

I'm omitting details, but the point is that ALL of this can be done
without a WinNT/2000/2003 server. Especially in smallish environments.
(Not sure about scaling to the enterprise)

later...
--
Jeffrey D. Silverman | jeffreyPANTS@jhu.edu **
Website | http://www.newtnotes.com

(** Drop "pants" to reply by email)

[ Post a follow-up to this message ]

On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 01:57:05 +0000, Patagonia-Brat-Penguin wrote:

> My God, I feel like I just went ten rounds with Mike Tyson, holy moly!  No
> matter what, no matter how enigmatic the postings and help articles, I was
> unable to get my wireless nic to work.  Okay, so its a laptop and I had
> issues with the whole ACPI thing.  So now I just dumped that laptop in fav
or
> of the Penguin, that is to say, Mandrake and now I am having issues with h
im
> as well.

I have installed Red Hat, Fedora, Mandrake on x86 PCs and even on an old
Mac G4.  I have not had any problems with hardware of any kind except one:

The wireless NIC!!

Now, I bought a 3COM card and spent 2 weeks trying to get it to work on
FC1, then FC2, then FC1 again. It *almost* did. Finally I gave up, did
some more research, and found that Orinoco-based cards will probably
install much more easily.

And it turns out to be true.  I bought an Orinoco "Classic" Gold card
(PCMCIA) and really, it installed extremely easily. Out of the box. No
additional drivers to install. I did have a problem, but this time it
turned out to be my router (a Linksys BEFsomethingsomething) -- an issue
I confirmed by dual booting into Windows XP on the same laptop and not
getting the card to work on XP either. I upgraded the firmware on the
*router* and everything was great.

So heres the advice on Wireless: Buy a card that you are *pretty* certain
will work! Look up other people's experiences, and buy based on that.

Unfortunately, of course, sometimes it is hard to tell what will work.
Good luck, though.

--
Jeffrey D. Silverman | jeffreyPANTS@jhu.edu **
Website | http://www.newtnotes.com

(** Drop "pants" to reply by email)

[ Post a follow-up to this message ]

Patagonia-Brat-Penguin wrote:

>
> Seriously, for a total, total newbie, what version of Linux is the
> friendliest and what, if any, training is there that will start off from A
> and go at least to E or F, before my head explodes.

In my experience, Mandrake was a good start.  I'm now running Fedora Core 2
which isn't hard now that I know some Linux basics.

Try not to get frustrated, and rather, channel that feeling into curiosity
about how the OS is working.  In my opinion, it's fine to go back to
Windows in-between getting things in Linux working, to do what you have to
do--just keep coming back to Linux and learn one thing at a time.  Soon,
once you've got your hardware working, you may not even want to use Windows
at all.  For me, I know when I get a scanner that works under Linux, I will
hose my Windows partitions completely 

I also know jack about programming.  Reading installation instructions
(often called INSTALL or README) usually tell you everything you have to
know about installing programs.  For learning some basics, there are some
good books out there.  I'd suggest a distribution-specific book for you to
start out as a newbie--e.g. if you run RedHat, get a RedHat Unleashed!
book.  Linux for Dummies or a similar book might also get you started on
some common Linux basics for any distribution.

I think unless we studied computers/*nix at some sort of school, we all
pretty much start out with Linux as "dummies", so know that your eagerness
and frustration are normal.  I also think that once you get Internet (with
the wireless card) working, then you'll really start having fun, because
there'll be no more getting up to walk to a Windows machine to search for
problems and answers.  If by chance you have one of those D-Link wireless
cards with a Texas Instruments acx100 chipset, check out this page:
http://www.houseofcraig.net/acx100_howto.php  It got me online.

Take it from me - I still know next to nothing about programming, but I've
got websites running with mysql databases and PHP; I can print, take
pictures, install and manage programs, run my own mail server for my
domains, and the list just goes on and on--all from learning about Linux
commands and some general server concepts, not programming.  You're
right--it's very much an academic pursuit, but the sense of accomplishment
is what makes it worth it for me--that and using pretty great software for
free.  You can do it.  There is a steep learning curve in the beginning, so
expect anywhere from a month to a few months to start getting some of
those, "Ah-hah!" moments, especially if you're married and have a job. ;-)
Even if you end up re-installing many times before you get it right, that's
normal too for a newbie.

Swedey

[ Post a follow-up to this message ]