Hi all,
trying to install Debian "sarge" on my PPC7300 (+Sonnet G3, +MP540, but
that should not matter here), I run into the following problems and
would welcome any hint:

Installation via the debian-installer runs fine (although I certainly
would like to get the main menu at any point and do not have to wait for
an error to be able to invoke it). Started by BootX from the 2.6.8
initrd.gz in the "Linux kernels" folder, everything runs smooth until
the newly installed system asks for a reboot. After that (and putting
the kernel included in the sarge netinstall CD image into "Linux
Kernel"), when I do a reboot, the best thing I can get is a started
kernel, right to the point where the Tux appears (although with strange
colors, but I'm sure I could correct that later). Then, nothing more.
With the 2.4.18 kernel from the same netinstall CD (and other sources as
well), I do not even get that far. After trying to boot from bootX, it
does not even leave MacOs (except for a disappearing cursor and a
"freeze"), and I hear the harddisk spin up. After a while, the computer
reboots automatically.

I tried many things, including an install of Woody (instead of Sarge)
via the debian installer (seleting a ftp-netinstall from "stable"). I
get this thing up and running in a way, when starting with a 2.2.20
kernel in "Linux kernels" folder. However, important modules cannot load
because modprobe does not find their path (it automatically tries in a
path with the name of the wrong kernel). Manual changes in
/lib/modutils/paths and a update-modules brings the right alternative
path into /etc/modules.conf, but at reboot it complains about this entry
as an "invalid line". This problem remains even when I add the module
(in my case the 8139too) to /etc/modules to load at boot time.

I'm quite sure I'm mixing up something obvious, but at this point I do
not know what it is...

So, anyone who successfully installed sarge on an oldworld PPC could
possibly give me a pointer to the right way. Is 2.6.8 running smoothly
from BootX? Why does 2.4.18 not work at all? How do I get the machine
booting into the installed kernel (2.6.8) without hanging after the Tux
or even before it? Is there a way to get the installer main menu up in
the beginning (so that I don't have to wait for an error)?

Thanks a lot in advance for any tip or pointer,
Frank

[ Post a follow-up to this message ]

"Frank O. Fackelmayer" <me@privacy.net> writes:

[installing sarge on PMac 7300: frame buffer problems]

I've had various problems with kernel 2.6.x and later 2.4.x on my
PowerMac 7500. That's because the frame buffer interface has undergone a
number of changes and many aspects special to Macintosh have not been
adressed so far (e.g. Permedia 3, which I have on my Formac Proformance
III, doesn't work at all, the driver has simply not been ported to the
new kernel structures).

That you can't boot with a 2.4.18 kernel seems unusual. But your problem
report also suggests that something else is somehow wrong. Have you
tried booting with the builtin framebuffer and without the MacPicasso
card you mentioned earlier? Also why don't you try to boot the installed
system from the 2.6.8 kernel you used for the installation procedure?

Unfortunately I'm not really an expert on the debian installation
procedure. Usually debian is only installed once on a system and runs
happily ever after.

I also wish to give the following general advice:

1. In debian /etc/modules.conf should not be directly edited,
create/edit files in /etc/modutils (for 2.2.x and 2.4.x) or
/etc/modprobe.d (for 2.6) instead. Also, to use a modularized 2.6
kernel, module-init-tools has to be installed.

2. You can't boot the sarge installer with the woody 2.2.20 kernel
because the corresponding modules are not in the installer image.
Modules have to match the exact compilation of the kernel (have to be
compiled with the same compiler from the same source tree with the
same configuration).

I'm on sid (which means that at one time I was also using the packages
currently in sarge) and can boot my Pmac 7500 with a 2.6.8 kernel just
fine. Actually the machines are similar enough, so I can easily send you
my precompiled kernel package and it should just work. Unfortunately
this won't help with the installer.

But you could just as well do an install of woody as you already
succeeded in that and upgrade to sarge. That would require the following
lines in /etc/apt/preferences:

------------------------------------>8------------------------------
Package: *
Pin: release a=unstable
Pin-Priority: 200

Package: *
Pin: release a=testing
Pin-Priority: 900

Package: *
Pin: release a=stable,v=3.0*
Pin-Priority: 201
------------------------------------>8------------------------------

and the following change in /etc/apt/apt.conf:

------------------------------------>8------------------------------
APT::Default-Release    "testing";
------------------------------------>8------------------------------

After adding these lines you would just use

apt-cdrom add

to make your sarge install CDs known to your woody installation or
alternatively add the following to your /etc/apt/sources.list to
download packages from the Internet (the deb-src lines can be
omitted unless you wish to produce modified debian packages):

------------------------------------>8------------------------------
deb http://ftp.de.debian.org/debian/ testing main non-free contrib
deb-src http://ftp.de.debian.org/debian/ testing main non-free contrib
deb http://ftp.de.debian.org/debian-non-US testing/non-US main contrib non-f
ree
deb-src http://ftp.de.debian.org/debian-non-US testing/non-US main contrib n
on-free
------------------------------------>8------------------------------

Afterwards an apt-get --simulate dist-upgrade should tell you wether an
upgrade will work.

Once the current testing distribution (aka sarge) has been declared
stable you would need to change the files mentioned above
accordingly. Unless you wish to stay in testing of course.

Thomas Jahns
--
"Computers are good at following instructions,
but not at reading your mind."
D. E. Knuth, The TeXbook, Addison-Wesley 1984, 1986, 1996, p. 9

[ Post a follow-up to this message ]

Thomas Jahns wrote:
> "Frank O. Fackelmayer" <me@privacy.net> writes:
>
> [installing sarge on PMac 7300: frame buffer problems]
>
> I've had various problems with kernel 2.6.x and later 2.4.x on my
> PowerMac 7500. That's because the frame buffer interface has undergone a
> number of changes and many aspects special to Macintosh have not been
> adressed so far (e.g. Permedia 3, which I have on my Formac Proformance
> III, doesn't work at all, the driver has simply not been ported to the
> new kernel structures).
>
> That you can't boot with a 2.4.18 kernel seems unusual. But your problem
> report also suggests that something else is somehow wrong. Have you
> tried booting with the builtin framebuffer and without the MacPicasso
> card you mentioned earlier? Also why don't you try to boot the installed
> system from the 2.6.8 kernel you used for the installation procedure?
>

how can I do that? I think I do not really understand yet what is going on w
hen
I boot via BootX. This is what I think, but it might be completely wrong: BE
FORE
I install Debian, there is a ramdisk image that holds "something" (I guess t
he
installer program) and the kernel, e.g. vmlinux. When I boot, I _think_ it b
oots
this kernel and runs the "something" on the ramdisk. AFTER install, the kern
el
is still the same (in the "Linux kernels" folder), and there is a second ker
nel
on the harddisk. Now, when I boot via BootX, which kernel is used? I feel it
 is
the kernel in the "Linux kernels" folder instead of the "right" one on the
harddisk; in fact I cannot simply remove it from the folder, because BootX
complains then.
So, HOW can I boot from the right kernel (the one that kept the installer
running)?? Will I have to copy files from the Mac side onto the Linux partit
ion?
Or what else must be done here?


> Unfortunately I'm not really an expert on the debian installation
> procedure. Usually debian is only installed once on a system and runs
> happily ever after.

ok, I should have stayed with the original installation of Woody. This was
installed after my tries with Yellowdog, and it installed very smoothly. Now
,
when I try to repeat this installation, the Woody "installer" behaves
differently and I can't get it to work again. I usually fail in the disk
partitioning nightmare; in my very first installation, it reconized the old
partitions from Yellowdog and simply asked me whether to use them. Now, ther
e is
a text-based "partitioning tool" with no explanation at all what to do. This
 is
really annoying :-o= especially because there is no decent documentation.


Frank

[ Post a follow-up to this message ]

Frank O. Fackelmayer wrote:
> Thomas Jahns wrote:
> 
>
> how can I do that? I think I do not really understand yet what is going
> on when I boot via BootX. This is what I think, but it might be
> completely wrong: BEFORE I install Debian, there is a ramdisk image that
> holds "something" (I guess the installer program) and the kernel, e.g.
> vmlinux. When I boot, I _think_ it boots this kernel and runs the
> "something" on the ramdisk. AFTER install, the kernel is still the same
> (in the "Linux kernels" folder), and there is a second kernel on the
> harddisk. Now, when I boot via BootX, which kernel is used? I feel it is
> the kernel in the "Linux kernels" folder instead of the "right" one on
> the harddisk; in fact I cannot simply remove it from the folder, because
> BootX complains then.
> So, HOW can I boot from the right kernel (the one that kept the
> installer running)?? Will I have to copy files from the Mac side onto
> the Linux partition?   Or what else must be done here?
>
> 
>
>
> ok, I should have stayed with the original installation of Woody. This
> was installed after my tries with Yellowdog, and it installed very
> smoothly. Now, when I try to repeat this installation, the Woody
> "installer" behaves differently and I can't get it to work again. I
> usually fail in the disk partitioning nightmare; in my very first
> installation, it reconized the old partitions from Yellowdog and simply
> asked me whether to use them. Now, there is a text-based "partitioning
> tool" with no explanation at all what to do. This is really annoying
> :-o= especially because there is no decent documentation.
>
>
> Frank
Keep in mind that if you re-partition you will probably lose your
install and data (if any).  Debian wants the boot partition to be the
first linux partition.  I had trouble at first because I was designating
the swap partition first.  Also using bootx you are using Quik (sp?) and
you should not be making a separate boot partition.  The two commands in
the partitioning/formatting tool that you really need to know are p and
?.  Print the partition map and help. Use them often. I find it easiest
to use values in blocks since that is default.  You can start
partitioning with the block immediatly following any Apple partitions
present. There will be at least 5 or 6 depending on how you formatted
under MacOS (if you did that).  You have to designate the start block
and length of each partiton and name it. That is where printing the map
often helps. Some of the block values may need some calculating but
nothing beyond 3rd grade arithmetic.

[ Post a follow-up to this message ]

"Frank O. Fackelmayer" <me@privacy.net> writes:
> Thomas Jahns wrote: 
>
> how can I do that? I think I do not really understand yet what is
> going on when I boot via BootX. This is what I think, but it might be
> completely wrong: BEFORE I install Debian, there is a ramdisk image
> that holds "something" (I guess the installer program) and the kernel,
> e.g. vmlinux. When I boot, I _think_ it boots this kernel and runs the
> "something" on the ramdisk. AFTER install, the kernel is still the
> same (in the "Linux kernels" folder), and there is a second kernel on
> the harddisk. Now, when I boot via BootX, which kernel is used? I feel
> it is the kernel in the "Linux kernels" folder instead of the "right"
> one on the harddisk; in fact I cannot simply remove it from the
> folder, because BootX complains then.

initrd (initial ram disk) is just a file system image in a file, much
like the files Disk Copy produces on MacOS.

BootX offers to boot one from a number of kernel files you put into
your MacOS partitions "Systemordner:Linux kernels" and you can also
specify a ram disk (initial ram disk is different from ram disk only by
the fact that an initial ram disk will later switch the root fs to
another device). BootX knows nothing about the contents of the ram disk,
just puts the contents at a location in ram and tells the kernel.

> So, HOW can I boot from the right kernel (the one that kept the
> installer running)?? Will I have to copy files from the Mac side onto
> the Linux partition?  Or what else must be done here?

I just got this idea: did you perhaps choose the new kernel and still
told BootX to load a ram disk? Try the other way round: take the kernel
you used for installation and tell it to boot from your installation
instead of the initrd (you need to pass an appropriate
root=/dev/[hs]dx line to the kernel via BootX). But you should already
know from your installation of woody how to do so.
 
>
> ok, I should have stayed with the original installation of Woody. This
> was installed after my tries with Yellowdog, and it installed very
> smoothly. Now, when I try to repeat this installation, the Woody
> "installer" behaves differently and I can't get it to work again. I
> usually fail in the disk partitioning nightmare; in my very first
> installation, it reconized the old partitions from Yellowdog and
> simply asked me whether to use them. Now, there is a text-based
> "partitioning tool" with no explanation at all what to do. This is
> really annoying :-o= especially because there is no decent
> documentation.

Yes, the macintosh fdisk is really user-unfriendly. But there is decent
documentation in "Installing Debian GNU/Linux 3.0 For PowerPC" a file
available as install.en.pdf from the debian site and there is supposed
to be a file name mac-fdisk.txt on the installation media.

But if your sarge installer does work to the point where you can
create partitions you could just make the partitions with that and use
them from the woody installer.

Thomas Jahns
--
"Computers are good at following instructions,
but not at reading your mind."
D. E. Knuth, The TeXbook, Addison-Wesley 1984, 1986, 1996, p. 9

[ Post a follow-up to this message ]

Keith Krehbiel wrote:

> Frank O. Fackelmayer wrote:
> 
>
> Keep in mind that if you re-partition you will probably lose your
> install and data (if any).

sure, but that is no problem at all. I am in fact experimenting with Linux o
n a
machine that is not mission-critical :-)

> Debian wants the boot partition to be the
> first linux partition.  I had trouble at first because I was designating
> the swap partition first

this is ok, my boot partition is on sdb2, swap on sdb3.

.  Also using bootx you are using Quik (sp?) and
> you should not be making a separate boot partition.  The two commands in
> the partitioning/formatting tool that you really need to know are p and
> ?.  Print the partition map and help. Use them often. I find it easiest
> to use values in blocks since that is default.  You can start
> partitioning with the block immediatly following any Apple partitions
> present. There will be at least 5 or 6 depending on how you formatted
> under MacOS (if you did that).  You have to designate the start block
> and length of each partiton and name it. That is where printing the map
>  often helps. Some of the block values may need some calculating but
> nothing beyond 3rd grade arithmetic.

i got that now. However, after writing the partition map the installer does 
not
recognize the swap partition.

[ Post a follow-up to this message ]

Frank O. Fackelmayer wrote:
> Keith Krehbiel wrote:
> 
>
>
> sure, but that is no problem at all. I am in fact experimenting with
> Linux on a machine that is not mission-critical :-)
> 
>
>
> this is ok, my boot partition is on sdb2, swap on sdb3.
>
> .  Also using bootx you are using Quik (sp?) and
> 
>
>
> i got that now. However, after writing the partition map the installer
> does not recognize the swap partition.
>

Do you have the option of using a previously created/initialized swap
partition?

[ Post a follow-up to this message ]

Keith Krehbiel <redsilo@pldi.net> writes:
> Keep in mind that if you re-partition you will probably lose your
> install and data (if any).  Debian wants the boot partition to be the
> first linux partition.  I had trouble at first because I was

That's possibly only relevant for quik, but Frank uses BootX.

> designating the swap partition first.  Also using bootx you are using
> Quik (sp?) and you should not be making a separate boot partition.

? One either uses quik or BootX, not both.

Thomas Jahns
--
"Computers are good at following instructions,
but not at reading your mind."
D. E. Knuth, The TeXbook, Addison-Wesley 1984, 1986, 1996, p. 9

[ Post a follow-up to this message ]

Keith Krehbiel wrote:
> Frank O. Fackelmayer wrote:
> 
>
> Do you have the option of using a previously created/initialized swap
> partition?
>

I did have this option the first time I installed Debian (there was YDL3
on the disc before). Now, I am not offered this step during
installation, but am thrown into the text-based partitioning thingy.

Frank

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Frank O. Fackelmayer wrote:
> Keith Krehbiel wrote:
> 
>
> I did have this option the first time I installed Debian (there was YDL3
> on the disc before). Now, I am not offered this step during
> installation, but am thrown into the text-based partitioning thingy.
>
> Frank

I meant in the text-based partitioner.
It was my understanding that Bootx used quik.
Keith

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