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On Mon, Mar 21, 2005 at 08:14:37AM +0100, Sven Luther wrote:
> [huge rant about NEW and hurting kernel stuff etc etc]

Three remarks:

> Rejecting those would lead in a pissed kernel maintainer team i would say.

Please be aware that NEW processing is human work. There's quite a big
backlog (currently still over 300 while I feel a lot got done already),
and I at least try to err on the side of caution. This means, and yes,
it already happenen, that it will occasionally happen we will reject an
upload by mistake. If this happens to you, just reply to the mail (as
its footer says, if you don't understand the reject, reply) and it will
looked into. Of course, if we decide it was a mistake and your package
should be accepted, we'll process it out-of-order (The mistake I
rectified yesterday was in NEW for 70 seconds, surely a record). Taking
it as offence and acting accordingly could have negative effects on
swift reprocessing.

> I think i would have warranted at least a reply on this case, don't
> you think ?

Maybe, if one would reply to all mails you send out, one wouldn't have
time for ANY other Debian work. For example, you contributed 75 mails[1]
within 24 hours to the Vancouver thread, consisting (excluding quoted
text) of about 7522 words in 43kB of hand-written text[2]. I'm sorry,
but you think it's weird people can't resist accidentally hitting the 'd'
key when seeing an incoming mail from you?



Anyway, regarding kernels: I can imagine sometimes, especially with the
backlog we have currently, a swift processing of some kernel package
might be warranted and help Sarge. If there is such a case, it would
help if someone other than yourself from the kernel team contact the
right email address[3] about it, I had a hard time distilling from your
mails if and which packages would genuinly benefit sarge if they were
processed swiftly, of course together with a short and factual
explanation. You can also try to make a release-team-person ask, but
they are also busy people, so why bother them?

Thanks,
--Jeroen

[1] http://lists.debian.org/~jeroen/sven-vancouver-24h.mbox
[2] wget -qO- http://lists.debian.org/~jeroen/sven-vancouver-24h.body \
grep -v '^>' | wc
[3] http://www.debian.org/intro/organization

--
Jeroen van Wolffelaar
Jeroen@wolffelaar.nl (also for Jabber & MSN; ICQ: 33944357)
http://Jeroen.A-Eskwadraat.nl


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On Mon, Mar 21, 2005 at 03:11:06PM +0100, Jeroen van Wolffelaar wrote:
> [ Please followup to the right list depending on the contents of your
> reply. Be aware I'm not subscribed to -kernel, so Cc me if needed ]
>
> On Mon, Mar 21, 2005 at 08:14:37AM +0100, Sven Luther wrote: 
>
> Three remarks:
> 
>
> Please be aware that NEW processing is human work. There's quite a big

which is my main grip with the subpart of it which could be automated. For
example, kernel-source-2.6.11 was just uploaded today, which means a plethor
a
of uploads all needing NEW processing. Can you give me any reason why this
really needs NEW processing, and why you don't thrust the kernel-team on thi
s ?

> backlog (currently still over 300 while I feel a lot got done already),
> and I at least try to err on the side of caution. This means, and yes,
> it already happenen, that it will occasionally happen we will reject an

the problem is not the reject, is the no news in weeks and no communication
channel open. But again, i think and hope that this will become better now.

> upload by mistake. If this happens to you, just reply to the mail (as
> its footer says, if you don't understand the reject, reply) and it will
> looked into. Of course, if we decide it was a mistake and your package
> should be accepted, we'll process it out-of-order (The mistake I
> rectified yesterday was in NEW for 70 seconds, surely a record). Taking
> it as offence and acting accordingly could have negative effects on
> swift reprocessing.

There was no real swift processing in the past. Also, i believe that if
packages are being considered and have some problems, it would be best to
include the maintainer having made the upload into this process as early as
possible.
 
>
> Maybe, if one would reply to all mails you send out, one wouldn't have
> time for ANY other Debian work. For example, you contributed 75 mails[
1]
> within 24 hours to the Vancouver thread, consisting (excluding quoted
> text) of about 7522 words in 43kB of hand-written text[2]. I'm sorry,
> but you think it's weird people can't resist accidentally hitting the 'd'
> key when seeing an incoming mail from you?

Well, sending email to a discussion forum like debian-devel, and sending ema
il
to a debian-role like ftp-master is not comparable, and i think it shows a
profund lack of responsability on your part even suggesting this. How would
you feel about a developer ignoring bug report from a certain person just
because he has posted a big amount of emails to debian-devel ? And a
falling-in-his-duties DD has at least the QA team and the MIA check to watch
over him, while the ftp-masters can have any uncontrolled whim and we have n
o
choice but to abide by them.

Furthermore i see a serious failing in your logic, in the fact that the emai
ls
you quote are posterior to the failure of reply from the ftp-master's office
,
and can thus not be used to excuse it.

> Anyway, regarding kernels: I can imagine sometimes, especially with the
> backlog we have currently, a swift processing of some kernel package
> might be warranted and help Sarge. If there is such a case, it would
> help if someone other than yourself from the kernel team contact the
> right email address[3] about it, I had a hard time distilling from your[/vbcol
]

Why not me ? I would very much like a reason for that, am i in some way
blacklisted ? and if so for what reason ? And is this reason an acceptable
one, i seriously doubt so. I am part of the kernel team, and i did work on m
y
other packages which are more or less in good state, as well as actively
participated in the debian-installer work. Why should you not threat a
question on my part as from any other developer ? And if you do not, would i
t
not be understandable that i feel irritated by this inacceptable behavior th
at
has a blocking effect on my own participation to debian.
[vbcol=seagreen]
> mails if and which packages would genuinly benefit sarge if they were
> processed swiftly, of course together with a short and factual
> explanation. You can also try to make a release-team-person ask, but
> they are also busy people, so why bother them?

Whatever. I believe that your response to email send to ftp-master's role in
debian should not be influenced by any personal negative opinion you may hav
e
on me, even if it may be warranted. We all work together to make the debian
release as great and swift as possible, and this kind of blacklisting of som
e
of our developers is inacceptable, and a severe failure in the ftp-master's
role responsability against the project.

Friendly,

Sven Luther


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On Mon, Mar 21, 2005 at 03:20:29PM +0100, Sven Luther wrote: 
>
> Why not me ? I would very much like a reason for that, am i in some way

Because you are impossible to deal with.  I think this mail from you shows
all the characteristics which make you such a pain in the XXXXing arse.
See a psychologist.  Really.

--
"Next the statesmen will invent cheap lies, putting the blame upon
the nation that is attacked, and every man will be glad of those
conscience-soothing falsities, and will diligently study them, and refuse
to examine any refutations of them; and thus he will by and by convince
himself that the war is just, and will thank God for the better sleep
he enjoys after this process of grotesque self-deception." -- Mark Twain


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Dear, all,

> [...]

I'm quite unhappy that this thread has turned so bad.  Please, all of us
who are part of this thread, can we please try to get the heat out.

I think we all are happy that ftp-masters and -assistents are currently
working on reducing the NEW queue to a reasonable size.  This will have
some good effect not only on the kernel, but also on every other package
in Debian.  I also think that we should be thankful for their hard work.

Also, I think we all know that keeping the kernel in sync is currently a
not too easy job.  So, for very similar reasons, we all should be happy
with the steady progress we're having on the kernel.  If we consider
woody's situation, we have by far too many kernel packages - a problem
that was solved by the kernel team for sarge.


So, we all are doing a hard job, and life is sometimes just stressing.
It would be really great if we can manage to keep the heat out, that
would help us all to do a better (and more enjoyable) job.


Thanks for your attention,
Andi
--
http://home.arcor.de/andreas-barth/
PGP 1024/89FB5CE5  DC F1 85 6D A6 45 9C 0F  3B BE F1 D0 C5 D1 D9 0C


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On Mon, Mar 21, 2005 at 03:11:06PM +0100, Jeroen van Wolffelaar wrote:
> Maybe, if one would reply to all mails you send out, one wouldn't have
> time for ANY other Debian work. For example, you contributed 75 mails[
1]
> within 24 hours to the Vancouver thread, consisting (excluding quoted
> text) of about 7522 words in 43kB of hand-written text[2]. I'm sorry,
> but you think it's weird people can't resist accidentally hitting the 'd'
> key when seeing an incoming mail from you?

And what about the email i sent to remove some erroneously ACCEPTED and then
REJECTED kernel package from the REJECT queue ? I had to mail twice about
this, and nothing ever happened for almost a month of so, all the while you
where spamming all of debian-kernel daily with said bogus reject message ?

Hurt,

Sven Luther


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> I'm quite unhappy that this thread has turned so bad.  Please, all of us
> who are part of this thread, can we please try to get the heat out.


I can't agree more. What I have seen up to now is make me very
sad. Seeing Sven considering to resign is sad news for me.

I won't play the "others started first" game, I leave this to my kids
(well, probably even the youngest of them wouldn't play this game
anymore).

Up to now, I have seen very rude and unacceptable mails addressed
directly to Sven Luther. There has been other rude mails sent to other
people as well which is obviously unacceptable as well (no, Sven, not
necessary from you). And I certainly missed a lot of other crap
because I have read about 5% of these threads.

The most difficult thing to do, especially by mail, is just
recognizing that one went too far or just that you are wrong. Several
people went too far in this thread. I think all should really consider
doing what adult and mature people would do_: just apologize, take a
break and avoid definitive statements....and continue working in this
project, because sometimes our arguments are not only out weakness but
our strength.

I don't agree with several things written by Sven here or there. I
probably agree with a lot of others...and I just don't understand
another bunch of such things.

I have seen serious attempts to make proposals which seems quite
constructive to me. I also have seen probably far too much mails
(sorry, Sven, but IMHO you really should have slowed your contribution
to all threads but, well, "ce qui est fait est fait")

But even what I may not agree with does not prevent me to consider
that losing his valuable input is not good for this project, just like
losing the work of any individual involved here would be bad.

OK, people, as far as I have seen we are all supposed to be adult
people here....not in a kind of kindergarten.

So, who starts and just makes one or two steps backward. And, please
no "He should do so first" answer....for $deity's sake, please be
adult.



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On Mon, Mar 21, 2005 at 06:34:00PM +0100, Christian Perrier wrote: 
>
>
> I can't agree more. What I have seen up to now is make me very
> sad. Seeing Sven considering to resign is sad news for me.

...

Thanks for this, it is hearthening (or however you say that in english).

I should really not have participated in that thread (and i resent a bit to
Steve for it), and i am probably better of not following debian-devel, as i
had not done for ages before.

Still i believe i have made some constructive proposals, and even if my firs
t
posts may have been a bit too aggressive, for which i apologize, or too many
,
i think it is also a prove of the passion which lies on this issue. Somethin
g
which has the potential to affect many of what we believe debian is, and whi
ch
is handled by utter contempt, at least in the initial posting.

Still hurt though,

Sven Luther


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On Tue, Mar 22, 2005 at 09:06:19AM -0300, Humberto Massa wrote:
> And I believe that the Vancouver proposal, if implemented as intended up
> to now, will not only affect what Debian really *is*, but in some ways
> will *destroy* what Debian is.

Debian has already decided to destroy what it is by giving in to the
crackpots who insist that everything is software.

--
"Next the statesmen will invent cheap lies, putting the blame upon
the nation that is attacked, and every man will be glad of those
conscience-soothing falsities, and will diligently study them, and refuse
to examine any refutations of them; and thus he will by and by convince
himself that the war is just, and will thank God for the better sleep
he enjoys after this process of grotesque self-deception." -- Mark Twain


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* Matthew Wilcox <matthew@wil.cx> [050322 16:51]:
> Debian has already decided to destroy what it is by giving in to the
> crackpots who insist that everything is software.

You mean some people failed to destroy Debian though loudly and very
often repeating the claim that some types of software do not count as
software?

Bernhard R. Link


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On Tue, Mar 22, 2005 at 07:36:50PM +0100, Raphael Hertzog wrote:
> Le mardi 22 mars 2005 à 17:46 +0100, Bernhard R. Link a écrit : 
>
> Why should people always be so counterproductive ?
>
> I'm also not satisfied with the non-productiveness of the removal of
> useful documentation. I'm also ashamed that some hardware doesn't work
> out of the box on Debian because we decided that firmware are software
> and thus should meet DFSG.

Notice that the plan is to have non-free drivers in non-free, as both .debs
and .udebs, and thus users can just download them from there, and feed them 
to
d-i through floppies or netbooting, and i guess some may even include them o
n
custom cds with added non-free.

Notice also, that technically such non-free modules can only be made once
upstream has clarified the copyright on those files and clearly excluded the
binary firmware blobs from the GPL coverage. Once that is done, it only
constitutes mere aggregation and is thus distributable in non-free.

This is why we voted to keep non-free back then, so let's make use of it for
non-free stuff.

Friendly,

Sven Luther


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